Florio “speculates” midway through that Mara stepped in to give Jones the contract at the “objections of both Schoen and Daboll” and “now they are saying [to Mara] see I told you so”.
Interesting choice of words “fall out of love”.
There is a lot of media smoke lately on Mara and ownership mettling in football decisions. Moreso than I can ever remember. It also feels like more than ever there is something too it though certain media members who are clued in may be acting coy to not risk backlash from an NFL scion, loss of access to or scoops from the team.
Many of us have speculated that the Maras have been pulling the strings in far too many instances and scapegoating coaches and GMs out of jobs for years.
Just how bad is the fish rotting from the head?
And could you see Schoen and Daboll playing a dangerous game of delicately leaking this kind of info to the press to apply public pressure for Mara to back off and let them run the team as they see fit?
New York Giants have fallen “out of love” with QB Jones - (
New Window )
When was the last time Florio had anything of value on the Giants? He’s typically an inflammatory rhetoric type, right?
When was the last time Florio had anything of value on the Giants? He’s typically an inflammatory rhetoric type, right?
Mara said it himself. He didn't want to tag DJ or let him test free agency and he wanted him here a long time. What more do you sheep want?
Maybe with these reports it's best to see this as Schoen year 1.
Mara said it himself. He didn't want to tag DJ or let him test free agency and he wanted him here a long time. What more do you sheep want?
On the other hand, Mara said he wanted Barkley to be a Giant for life.
In the owner meeting interview. He said he wanted to sign him long term and for him to be here a long time, inferring he didn't want to tag him. I just felt like it was pretty obvious from his own words that he didn't want to let DJ test the open market, didn't want to tag him and wanted him signed long term. That's the vibe I got from what he said at least.
No one does. Florio doesn't know anything. It doesn't mean he's wrong, but it might as well be a fan out there talking. For the fans, you've the same people torching Schoen ripping Mara for meddling. Which is it dude? I mean, get your story straight.
I'll pull up the quotes.
Here is a Mara quote in the NY Post...
“I emphasized to him how much we wanted him here, wanted him to be a Giant and how I felt it was in his best interest to sign the deal and stay here,” Mara said Monday at the NFL owners’ meeting. “We’re finally going to give you some continuity, which we haven’t been able to do since we drafted you and we have a chance to build this roster to be a successful team and we want you to be a part of it. It was a good conversation. I was very pleased he ended up signing the deal.”
Nothing about the FT.
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When and where did Mara ever say he didn't want to tag Jones?
Here is a Mara quote in the NY Post...
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Earlier that day, co-owner John Mara reached out to his quarterback, hoping this one final outreach would help convince Jones how much he was wanted.
“I emphasized to him how much we wanted him here, wanted him to be a Giant and how I felt it was in his best interest to sign the deal and stay here,” Mara said Monday at the NFL owners’ meeting. “We’re finally going to give you some continuity, which we haven’t been able to do since we drafted you and we have a chance to build this roster to be a successful team and we want you to be a part of it. It was a good conversation. I was very pleased he ended up signing the deal.”
Nothing about the FT.
I know that quote is what they posted on giants.com, I'm trying to find the transcript.
Eli won Mara two SBs. I think the circumstances are considerably different.
What are you going to tell me next? Accorsi did an extensive GM search?
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I think it's a stretch to think Mara mandated Eli on Gettleman but then is hands free with Jones. Anyone could have declined the 5th year option on Jones coming off 2021. He didn't play the final 7 games and hadn't shown anything consistent to that point.
Eli won Mara two SBs. I think the circumstances are considerably different.
What are you going to tell me next? Accorsi did an extensive GM search?
I'm just saying, there is plenty of smoke out there that Mara had a strong preference to a contract being done with Jones.
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because that’s the type of baseless narrative that drives readership like this
When was the last time Florio had anything of value on the Giants? He’s typically an inflammatory rhetoric type, right?
Mara said it himself. He didn't want to tag DJ or let him test free agency and he wanted him here a long time. What more do you sheep want?
I apologize Wigs, I didn't mean that. I'm just frustrated with being in QB hell. That wasn't called for.
I'm just saying, there is plenty of smoke out there that Mara had a strong preference to a contract being done with Jones.
I think that is absolutely right.
But why couldn't Schoen have felt the exact same way?
I could see Schoen struggling to finalize the deal - it was his first major deal ever as a GM - and he asked Mara offered to call Team Jones to express how much he wanted him to stay.
I would imagine that's fairly commonplace in all professional team sports when there is a big contract situation.
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In comment 16505793 wigs in nyc said:
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because that’s the type of baseless narrative that drives readership like this
When was the last time Florio had anything of value on the Giants? He’s typically an inflammatory rhetoric type, right?
Mara said it himself. He didn't want to tag DJ or let him test free agency and he wanted him here a long time. What more do you sheep want?
I apologize Wigs, I didn't mean that. I'm just frustrated with being in QB hell. That wasn't called for.
Indeed, partner. Dabs and Schoen got blind-sided by winning that playoff game, and couldn’t not give the guy who get them there a contract. Built into the damn contract, though, was a hedge, and that’s why we’ll be able to cut Jones after next year if we are in a spot to.
Shit, I remember even Terps had some positive things to say about Jones tail end of that year. Even bw came around for a minute if memory serves.
I mean, I know all of this feels easier to process when there’s someone to blame, but sometimes talented guys make a reasonable roll of the dice and it doesn’t work out. And with the way we all had the rug pulled out from under us last year, friggin week 1, we’re all still smartin’.
And then of course it will probably start all over again with next player that Mara "loves". But it is what it is at this point.
It starts when you crave what they say
Florio got you clicking on his website today
This is QB hell and it is what it is. The media noise now is just for clicks/ratings; an easy topic to ping pong when there’s little to talk about.
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When and where did Mara ever say he didn't want to tag Jones?
Here is a Mara quote in the NY Post...
Quote:
Earlier that day, co-owner John Mara reached out to his quarterback, hoping this one final outreach would help convince Jones how much he was wanted.
“I emphasized to him how much we wanted him here, wanted him to be a Giant and how I felt it was in his best interest to sign the deal and stay here,” Mara said Monday at the NFL owners’ meeting. “We’re finally going to give you some continuity, which we haven’t been able to do since we drafted you and we have a chance to build this roster to be a successful team and we want you to be a part of it. It was a good conversation. I was very pleased he ended up signing the deal.”
Nothing about the FT.
Yikes. Stevie Wonder could see Mara was instrumental in resigning Daniel Jones. Rumor was Joe Schoen was playing hardball with Dan Jone and his agents. So much so Jones switched agents to get a deal done
I may be alone on this board, but my money is on DJ. If Thomas stays healthy and the rest of the line is at least mediocre he will earn his money.
So which is it?
So which is it?
Both threads imply Mara loves him.
Looks to me Schoen had difficulties closing the deal he wanted and needed Mara to push it across the line.
It is apparent to all that confidence in DJ is very low no matter what the organization says. Lock is a wild card and if he becomes the starter he will be mediocre at best. By a miracle, if Daniel Jones proves he is our franchise quarterback with no doubt all Giant fans would be ecstatic. If this happens I would shocked but miracles do happen.
Can't fire him if he did. George Young warned everyone of this back in 1979, which is why he had an iron clad clause in his contract that all final decisions were to be his, and his alone. Wellington Mara relented and the Giants became a power house. At least Welly kept his word.
I still can't believe how many people still believe the Mara narrative... you people can't provide a single shred of proof that Mara mandated anything with JS and BD.
I think Mara was probably not shy in expressing his belief about Jones to Schoen and Daboll, but I don’t think he told them to give him a long term contract or else. If that were the case they would have picked up the fifth year option. That is what you do for players you believe in.
Jones is Schoen’s QB. What you see on the field in 2024 is the team Joe Schoen assembled over his 3 years here.
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Just let this bozo become our GM so we can at least hold him accountable for the shit job he’s doing.
I still can't believe how many people still believe the Mara narrative... you people can't provide a single shred of proof that Mara mandated anything with JS and BD.
Link - ( New Window )
I think Mara was probably not shy in expressing his belief about Jones to Schoen and Daboll, but I don’t think he told them to give him a long term contract or else. If that were the case they would have picked up the fifth year option. That is what you do for players you believe in.
Jones is Schoen’s QB. What you see on the field in 2024 is the team Joe Schoen assembled over his 3 years here.
There are two big negatives on Schoen right now:
(1) the quarterback situation.
(2) the offensive line situation
With respect to the first point, the whole situation is odd. They refused the 5th-year option. They dumbed down the offense in the second half of 2022. They correctly chose not to break the bank for Barkley, who refused the Giants' offer. So to FT, they gave Jones the big deal. A year later, they let Barkley walk for nothing. So either Schoen really screwed up or ownership didn't want to lose the two faces of the franchise. We'll never know.
With respect to the second point, the regime has yet to draft (4 players) or sign a free agent (Glowinksi) who has panned out on the OL. Bad scouting? Bad luck? Bad coaching? Whatever, this was the same problem under Reese and Gettleman.
I think Mara was probably not shy in expressing his belief about Jones to Schoen and Daboll, but I don’t think he told them to give him a long term contract or else. If that were the case they would have picked up the fifth year option. That is what you do for players you believe in.
Jones is Schoen’s QB. What you see on the field in 2024 is the team Joe Schoen assembled over his 3 years here.
The contract talk was after the team made the playoffs and won a playoff game. After MetLife was chanting "Daniel Jones" in the playoff clinching game against Indy.
Declining the 5th year option? That was easy. An injured QB coming off a 4-13 season. The issue was the success in 2022. Of NYG goes 6-11 in 2022, this is a non issue and Jones is a backup elsewhere.
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Just let this bozo become our GM so we can at least hold him accountable for the shit job he’s doing.
I still can't believe how many people still believe the Mara narrative... you people can't provide a single shred of proof that Mara mandated anything with JS and BD.
Do you think Mara has not shared his opinion of Jones with Schoen and Daboll? When Schoen was updating Mara on the situations with Jones and Barkley last year do think Mara just said “Do whatever you think is best, Joe?”
A: Well, that perception has been created by you and others and the reality is that, in terms of my brother, my brother spends most of his time doing evaluation of college players. His grades go into our system and he participates in the draft. All personnel decisions in this building – and this has always been the case – have been made by the general manager and the head coach. When they agree on a personnel decision, they come to me with it and as long as they're both in agreement, I okay it. The only times I would possibly not do that is if there was an off the field conduct issue. (Senior Vice President of Player Personnel) Chris (Mara) is a very skilled evaluator, but he does not have any authority here other than the fact that I will go to him on occasion and ask him about players. (Co-Director of Player Personnel) Tim (McDonnell) is probably the most respected guy we have in this building. The coaches, front office staff, the general manager go to him and ask his advice on players because he is a good evaluator. He's worked his way up from the bottom and he's earned his stripes. He does not have any authority here. The personnel decisions have always been made and will always be made by the general manager and the head coach. If they agree on a draft pick, on a UFA, then I'm going to okay it 99.99 percent of the time. The only time I will raise an issue about it is if there is a conduct issue. I'll question them about it, I'll make them defend their positions and I'll make sure that they're on the same page, but at the end of the day if they're in agreement, then that's the decision we're going with.
Quotes (1/12): Giants President & CEO John Mara - ( New Window )
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If Jones was forced on him by the owner, then he is blameless for the team signing Jones to that albatross of a deal. Now, he just did what he was forced to do. Judge him on all his moves except what he did at QB.
I think Mara was probably not shy in expressing his belief about Jones to Schoen and Daboll, but I don’t think he told them to give him a long term contract or else. If that were the case they would have picked up the fifth year option. That is what you do for players you believe in.
Jones is Schoen’s QB. What you see on the field in 2024 is the team Joe Schoen assembled over his 3 years here.
The contract talk was after the team made the playoffs and won a playoff game. After MetLife was chanting "Daniel Jones" in the playoff clinching game against Indy.
Declining the 5th year option? That was easy. An injured QB coming off a 4-13 season. The issue was the success in 2022. Of NYG goes 6-11 in 2022, this is a non issue and Jones is a backup elsewhere.
Yes it was. And they made a decision to pay the man at the head of the “bumper bowling” offense with 15 passing TDs in 17 games a $160M. If our front office does that because fans were chanting the QBs name, it should be exceedingly clear to everyone we hired the wrong people.
The only way you can not blame Schoen for this mess is to blame Mara for it. I think that is wishful thinking for people who realize Schoen will be here a long time and want to hold him blameless for that huge mistake.
Schoen did a poor job of self scouting in 2022. That resulted in making some bad decisions. It isn’t more complicated than that.
Schoen did a poor job of self scouting in 2022. That resulted in making some bad decisions. It isn’t more complicated than that.
Very possible. Occam's razor.
However, it is not outside the realm of possibility that ownership did say, "I'd prefer to have Jones and Barkley back. Make it happen."
Yikes. Stevie Wonder could see Mara was instrumental in resigning Daniel Jones. Rumor was Joe Schoen was playing hardball with Dan Jone and his agents. So much so Jones switched agents to get a deal done
Are you sure Team Jones wasn't playing hardball, too?
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And wanted him back. I also know Schoen was able to decline Jones’ fifth year option and let Barkley walk. I think he freely shares his opinions as many owners do, but I think the evidence is there that Schoen is able to make the decisions he wants to make.
Schoen did a poor job of self scouting in 2022. That resulted in making some bad decisions. It isn’t more complicated than that.
Very possible. Occam's razor.
However, it is not outside the realm of possibility that ownership did say, "I'd prefer to have Jones and Barkley back. Make it happen."
Fair enough Eric. But any good analysis would then say and here's why and personally I can't think of one good reason why Mara would say that and sorry he 'liked' the guys doesn't cut it when one is running a billion dollar business. Then of course there is the other side of the coin. What was the 'other' plan that Schoen/Daboll preferred that Mara put off.
Why can't just accept these are professional people running a business were there are very few certainties and absolutely no guarantees. They look at the options and alternatives available at a time in place, make the best decision they can, and then re-evaluate at the next point in time.
Mara isn't Jerry Jones who wants everything to be about him. Good or bad if people are talking about Jerry Jones, Jerry Jones is happy.
Mara wants that level of separation, where if things go off the rails he can fire someone and skate blame. See: the Eli benching fiasco
Does John think we're rubes? The nephew 'worked his way up from the bottom'? Like, GTFO with that shit.
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Yikes. Stevie Wonder could see Mara was instrumental in resigning Daniel Jones. Rumor was Joe Schoen was playing hardball with Dan Jone and his agents. So much so Jones switched agents to get a deal done
Are you sure Team Jones wasn't playing hardball, too?
It's easy when you know you have the owner on your side.
Not to let Jones at least get the market is unbelievable. He would have never gotten this offer elsewhere IMO. He would have came back and we couldmhave offered less.
However, that would appear to be an admission of failure for drafting him.
The New York Giants don't do that. This organization loves to fail slow.
But one of two things is happening.
Mara is interferring.
Or Mara can't hire the right people.
Neither is a good look.
What about trying to trade up for Maye, elaborate smoke screen?
Does John think we're rubes? The nephew 'worked his way up from the bottom'? Like, GTFO with that shit.
This was pure cringe too:
"Tim (McDonnell) is probably the most respected guy we have in this building."
What about trying to trade up for Maye, elaborate smoke screen?
Not taking a QB in this past draft given who was already out of reach is defensible. Giving Jones $160 million is not.
It’s still a stupid ass conspiracy theory. Prove it otherwise.
What about trying to trade up for Maye, elaborate smoke screen?
Definitely could be.
They'll wait until Jones (and his contract) are gone.
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"He's worked his way up from the bottom and he's earned his stripes"
Does John think we're rubes? The nephew 'worked his way up from the bottom'? Like, GTFO with that shit.
This was pure cringe too:
"Tim (McDonnell) is probably the most respected guy we have in this building."
That rambling quote alone could serve as the basis for a business school case study on poor leadership and how not to run an organization. There is so much in there.
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I agree. Once what was considered "conspiracy theory" has now reached the pundit class, whether you believe it or not.
It’s still a stupid ass conspiracy theory. Prove it otherwise.
We're raising legitimate questions about why this franchise remains broken despite repeatedly changing GMs and HCs. There has only been one constant.
Repeated assertions that this "can't be true" reeks of blind faith homerism.
And that is fair. The problems showing now, particularly the inability to self scout and make tough decisions on ‘face of the franchise’ players were here long before Joe Schoen. It is fair to suggest there is a cause above him in the hierarchy.
Mara has publicly stated his love for Jones on multiple occasions. He even came out this offseason & said Barkley wasn't traded this past season because doing so would have signaled the season was over. Hey John, the season was long over by then.
Do I think John had a say on both decision? I think it's entirely possible.
Lot of missed drafts picks and FA signings. The few that had some productivity were mostly average NFL players on a bad team.
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In comment 16505791 Eric from BBI said:
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I agree. Once what was considered "conspiracy theory" has now reached the pundit class, whether you believe it or not.
It’s still a stupid ass conspiracy theory. Prove it otherwise.
We're raising legitimate questions about why this franchise remains broken despite repeatedly changing GMs and HCs. There has only been one constant.
Repeated assertions that this "can't be true" reeks of blind faith homerism.
+1
Prove it otherwise is a silly retort knowing the only way to prove it would be for one of us to post a video of Mara and Schoen discussing the contract. Of course nobody can prove it. That also doesn’t mean we aren’t free to draw inferences from facts that are known.
Exactly- they know the Giants fan base is a bunch of lemmings who believe the last thing they read, so what better way to needle them than engage in mindless speculation based on no evidence or facts.
Personally, I think that the Giants showed their hand when they signed Lock. But this isn’t some grand Wizard-of_Oz scheme involving Mara.
“Once a Giants, always a Giant”
The fiber of this team is getting attached to players and wanting to do right by them. That is good when applied to former players who are out of the league that can always count on help from the org when they need it. But the organization has to be more cold when it comes to evaluating current players on the roster and more willing to move on from them. That is not something that changed under Schoen or even Gettleman.
I think Lombardi said that Mara was in love with Jones.
Florio's speculates that Schoen/Daboll do not and show Mara his error.
It starts when you crave what they say
Florio got you clicking on his website today
LOL - awesome
Somethings happening here
But what it is isn't exactly clear
There's a Mara with a pen over there
Schoen is telling me I better beware
Where I get baffled & irate is the emotional attachment to dudes who-let's face it-don't deserve it based on on field product. Eli won 2 Super Bowls. He's going to be in Canton. Daniel Jones has done nothing even remotely close to that. Nor did Saquon Barkley. Sure, I bet both are great dudes who work hard & are good teammates, but there's a lot of guys like that too who don't nearly the same type of love & attachment like those two do/did for example.
It's easy when you know you have the owner on your side.
Not to let Jones at least get the market is unbelievable. He would have never gotten this offer elsewhere IMO. He would have came back and we couldmhave offered less.
However, that would appear to be an admission of failure for drafting him.
The New York Giants don't do that. This organization loves to fail slow.
I'm not trying a complete jerkoff on this, but if Mara was on Jones side why did the deal come down to the witching hour? Did Mara want to make the situation dramatic?
BTW, no one pushed for Schoen to let Jones test his value in the open market more than me. I didn't even want the FT. I wanted the TT - at best. This was Schoen's biggest mistake.
Until the draft...
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In comment 16505810 Doubledeuce22 said:
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Just let this bozo become our GM so we can at least hold him accountable for the shit job he’s doing.
I still can't believe how many people still believe the Mara narrative... you people can't provide a single shred of proof that Mara mandated anything with JS and BD.
Do you think Mara has not shared his opinion of Jones with Schoen and Daboll? When Schoen was updating Mara on the situations with Jones and Barkley last year do think Mara just said “Do whatever you think is best, Joe?”
Shared an opinion? Of course! Mandated anything, hell no!
I also think they will not take another QB high in the draft unless everyone in their front office is absolutely giddy about him. Anything short of that and he is not the guy they want to commit - at minimum - 5 years too.
The Giants are a very traditional organization and I think they tend to lag behind the rest of the league in how the game has changed and how the rookie wage scale makes QB a position where you can create competition and take chances on developmental guys.
I was surprised and relieved the Giants didn't offer practical guarantees into the third year.
There are three groupings at the top of the QB market: four years fully/practically guaranteed at signing (Watson, Mahomes etc.), three years (Dak, Jackson, etc.), and two (Jones, Carr).
A sane outcome for Jones was one year guaranteed.
Letting Barkley go smells of Schoen, not Mara.
I also think they will not take another QB high in the draft unless everyone in their front office is absolutely giddy about him. Anything short of that and he is not the guy they want to commit - at minimum - 5 years too.
The Giants are a very traditional organization and I think they tend to lag behind the rest of the league in how the game has changed and how the rookie wage scale makes QB a position where you can create competition and take chances on developmental guys.
100%.
Today's GMs are learning to fail fast. 2-3 years non a prospect.
And even year the teams needing a QB increase. We can never rely on "We'll get a QB next year".
I was surprised and relieved the Giants didn't offer practical guarantees into the third year.
There are three groupings at the top of the QB market: four years fully/practically guaranteed at signing (Watson, Mahomes etc.), three years (Dak, Jackson, etc.), and two (Jones, Carr).
A sane outcome for Jones was one year guaranteed.
If the owner is expressing his belief in you via the type of quotes Mara made after the playoff game, and privately expressing the desire to have you back, you have all of the leverage in the negotiation. Why would Jones have not pushed for every single cent he could get and wait it out?
I think Mara gave Jones a huge leg up in that negotiation which contributed to a deal that most observers thought was well above market. You do well in a negotiation when you have all of the leverage.
Letting Barkley go smells of Schoen, not Mara.
I think this is more evidence that Mara is letting his feelings be known, but not mandating anything. If Schoen is on the fence on a decision I think he is more likely to side with Mara. I think when he believes strongly on something Mara will let him do what he wants.
This is why I am not buying that Jones was forced on Schoen. Schoen decided that deal was something he was content with.
I also think they will not take another QB high in the draft unless everyone in their front office is absolutely giddy about him. Anything short of that and he is not the guy they want to commit - at minimum - 5 years too.
The Giants are a very traditional organization and I think they tend to lag behind the rest of the league in how the game has changed and how the rookie wage scale makes QB a position where you can create competition and take chances on developmental guys.
This is an excellent summary. One thing I'd expand on which is aligned to main theme is that they want to avoid a "QB Controversy" at all costs. They do not want any chatter among the fans or media that would undermine that chosen QB during his reign.
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But I think the organization still views QB as a position where you pick a guy to be the cornerstone of your franchise. I think they also still view QB as a position where even really good ones will struggle for 3-4 years before it clicks (harkening back as many do here to Phil Simms in the 80s). I think they view 2022 as when it really clicked for Jones. I think they are writing off 2023 to not being his fault at all.
I also think they will not take another QB high in the draft unless everyone in their front office is absolutely giddy about him. Anything short of that and he is not the guy they want to commit - at minimum - 5 years too.
The Giants are a very traditional organization and I think they tend to lag behind the rest of the league in how the game has changed and how the rookie wage scale makes QB a position where you can create competition and take chances on developmental guys.
This is an excellent summary. One thing I'd expand on which is aligned to main theme is that they want to avoid a "QB Controversy" at all costs. They do not want any chatter among the fans or media that would undermine that chosen QB during his reign.
Agreed.
They're not going to bench their $80 million man unless he's injured or completely inept by the time the season is done statistically.
Silly take. First of all these are different takes from different reporters. But the underlying reality is the Giants had a *love* for Daniel Jones at some juncture. Probably it was Mara. And it so hamstrung the organization that the disentangling is a major sports story. Again, signs of an incompetent ownership.
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Mike Lombardi said that Mara was "in love" with Daniel Jones which is why this team struggles because they fall in love with certain players they should move on from. A day later now they have fallen "out of love" with Jones. A perfect summation of todays tabloid sports media.
I think Lombardi said that Mara was in love with Jones.
Florio's speculates that Schoen/Daboll do not and show Mara his error.
And of course the problem now is, if Daboll decides to run with Lock, he will face the same ire from Mara that McAdoo faced when he started Geno Smith instead of Eli in 2017. If it goes well and the team makes the playoffs, great. But is that likely? Even if Lock proves competent, is this really a top tier playoff team? Possible, but not probable. And Daboll knows this.
The reality is, Daboll's job is much more secure if he runs out DJ with the new shiny toys and tries to prove Mara's thesis that DJ has been a top ten quarterback all along who "the franchise has failed" these many years. Two GMs, three coaches and dozens of personnel changes have been the problem all along and DJ has simply been an innocent victim in a sea of chaos.
So my guess is, Schoen and Daboll will therefore start DJ in 2024 simply to appease Mara. If it fails, which everyone in the universe knows will except Mara, and maybe Jack Stroud although there is growing speculation that Stroud is simply Mara's BBI handle, Daboll will remain safe in his job and will finally get the chance to get his quarterback in 2025. Which is why they made no effort to reach for a quarterback at six in the draft or even select a developmental guy on day three. They are safe as long as they stick with DJ.
And so the 2024 season will not be over by Halloween this year. It will be over by Labor Day. The good news is, Ray in Arlington can begin presenting strength of schedule tie breakers this week!
My main question is, how does Florio know this? My guess is that someone close to the Giants leaked this to him, and if it’s true, Mara’s meddling is far worse than even his most vocal critics would have thought. If John Mara was running the show in 2004, he would have vetoed the SD trade because Kerry Collins had overcome so much adversity and worked really hard. At least with KC, he took us to a SB!
I don’t root for the Patriots, so I don’t give a shit what Kraft does. How is that hard to understand? And Kraft has 6 SB rings.
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I agree. Once what was considered "conspiracy theory" has now reached the pundit class, whether you believe it or not.
My main question is, how does Florio know this? My guess is that someone close to the Giants leaked this to him, and if it’s true, Mara’s meddling is far worse than even his most vocal critics would have thought. If John Mara was running the show in 2004, he would have vetoed the SD trade because Kerry Collins had overcome so much adversity and worked really hard. At least with KC, he took us to a SB!
Credit to Mara where it's due, Wellington was hesitant to move on from Collins, John was actually in Accorsi's camp and his father's ear on making the move for Eli.
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But I think the organization still views QB as a position where you pick a guy to be the cornerstone of your franchise. I think they also still view QB as a position where even really good ones will struggle for 3-4 years before it clicks (harkening back as many do here to Phil Simms in the 80s). I think they view 2022 as when it really clicked for Jones. I think they are writing off 2023 to not being his fault at all.
I also think they will not take another QB high in the draft unless everyone in their front office is absolutely giddy about him. Anything short of that and he is not the guy they want to commit - at minimum - 5 years too.
The Giants are a very traditional organization and I think they tend to lag behind the rest of the league in how the game has changed and how the rookie wage scale makes QB a position where you can create competition and take chances on developmental guys.
This is an excellent summary. One thing I'd expand on which is aligned to main theme is that they want to avoid a "QB Controversy" at all costs. They do not want any chatter among the fans or media that would undermine that chosen QB during his reign.
You both nailing it. Good posts.
Such ass-backwards thinking from this franchise in today's NFL. The hope was the Schoen/Daboll combo would have broken them away from these crutches yet these two are getting affected by the poison in that building.
Can they find the antidote soon or will it take having the #1 overall to finally do it?
Schoen did a poor job of self scouting in 2022. That resulted in making some bad decisions. It isn’t more complicated than that.
1000% on the lack of self-scouting. I get that fans get too caught up in a playoff run, but the FO absolutely should not. I mean, many here on BBI urged caution entering 2023, that Daboll used smoke and mirrors to coax some wins. I simply find it hard to believe that Schoen and Daboll didn’t see that. But we do have Mara on the record crowing about how the Giants had arrived and turned a corner, and all that utter bullshit. How much of that belief got him to push the FO to prioritize bringing back Jones and Barkley?
Joe Schoen has had 3 drafts with enormous draft capital. Picks 5, 6, and 7.
He has had over 20 draft picks.
He has had hundreds of millions of dollars to spend. He has brought in Waller via trade, Burns via trade, Okereke, Taylor, Campbell, Glowinski, Runyan, Eleumenor, etc.
He has had freedom to trade. Williams, Toney.
He has chosen who to resign and what amounts and how long. Jones, Slayton, Thomas, Lawrence,
He has chosen who not to resign. Barkley, Love. McKinney. Etc
He has total Ownership over coaching in a way that his predecessors did not.
He has had freedom to remake the staff under him in a way his predecessors did not.
This roster is his now.
What I see is a roster in which its most significant players were brought in not by him. Jones, Thomas, Lawrence
And I do not see a team that looks or operates or plays any different than what it was before him. There is no stamp he has put in this team at all.
Burns & Nabors better change this real fast.
We have a beautiful new draft room though. Kudos
So, he probably doesn't say "you must sign x player," but does say "I'm a big fan of x player, he's really great and I would be really disappointed if he's gone." The GM technically can still let x player go, but doing so would be risky and would anger Mara. Many wouldn't want to take that chance.
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In comment 16505978 Mike from Ohio said:
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But I think the organization still views QB as a position where you pick a guy to be the cornerstone of your franchise. I think they also still view QB as a position where even really good ones will struggle for 3-4 years before it clicks (harkening back as many do here to Phil Simms in the 80s). I think they view 2022 as when it really clicked for Jones. I think they are writing off 2023 to not being his fault at all.
I also think they will not take another QB high in the draft unless everyone in their front office is absolutely giddy about him. Anything short of that and he is not the guy they want to commit - at minimum - 5 years too.
The Giants are a very traditional organization and I think they tend to lag behind the rest of the league in how the game has changed and how the rookie wage scale makes QB a position where you can create competition and take chances on developmental guys.
This is an excellent summary. One thing I'd expand on which is aligned to main theme is that they want to avoid a "QB Controversy" at all costs. They do not want any chatter among the fans or media that would undermine that chosen QB during his reign.
Agreed.
They're not going to bench their $80 million man unless he's injured or completely inept by the time the season is done statistically.
Agreed. I also think this was why Saquon or McKinney were not traded at the deadline. Mara believed his QB, Dan Jones, would come back to lead the Giants to glory. Only for him to tear his ACL a week after the deadline when he came back.
Giants are also against tanking, so it's possible they refused to trade either for this reasoning mid season, but I do believe the timing was unfortunate for us fans in regards to getting something for Saquon and X.
Trade Deadline Oct 31
Dan Jones comes back and tears ACL -- Nov 7
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In comment 16505955 Jay on the Island said:
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Mike Lombardi said that Mara was "in love" with Daniel Jones which is why this team struggles because they fall in love with certain players they should move on from. A day later now they have fallen "out of love" with Jones. A perfect summation of todays tabloid sports media.
I think Lombardi said that Mara was in love with Jones.
Florio's speculates that Schoen/Daboll do not and show Mara his error.
And of course the problem now is, if Daboll decides to run with Lock, he will face the same ire from Mara that McAdoo faced when he started Geno Smith instead of Eli in 2017. If it goes well and the team makes the playoffs, great. But is that likely? Even if Lock proves competent, is this really a top tier playoff team? Possible, but not probable. And Daboll knows this.
The reality is, Daboll's job is much more secure if he runs out DJ with the new shiny toys and tries to prove Mara's thesis that DJ has been a top ten quarterback all along who "the franchise has failed" these many years. Two GMs, three coaches and dozens of personnel changes have been the problem all along and DJ has simply been an innocent victim in a sea of chaos.
So my guess is, Schoen and Daboll will therefore start DJ in 2024 simply to appease Mara. If it fails, which everyone in the universe knows will except Mara, and maybe Jack Stroud although there is growing speculation that Stroud is simply Mara's BBI handle, Daboll will remain safe in his job and will finally get the chance to get his quarterback in 2025. Which is why they made no effort to reach for a quarterback at six in the draft or even select a developmental guy on day three. They are safe as long as they stick with DJ.
And so the 2024 season will not be over by Halloween this year. It will be over by Labor Day. The good news is, Ray in Arlington can begin presenting strength of schedule tie breakers this week!
DJ will start as long as he's healthy, he's making too much to be benched while healthy. Plus, we all know Mara loves him. He will not be benched if he is healthy.
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In comment 16505957 SirLoinOfBeef said:
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In comment 16505955 Jay on the Island said:
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Mike Lombardi said that Mara was "in love" with Daniel Jones which is why this team struggles because they fall in love with certain players they should move on from. A day later now they have fallen "out of love" with Jones. A perfect summation of todays tabloid sports media.
I think Lombardi said that Mara was in love with Jones.
Florio's speculates that Schoen/Daboll do not and show Mara his error.
And of course the problem now is, if Daboll decides to run with Lock, he will face the same ire from Mara that McAdoo faced when he started Geno Smith instead of Eli in 2017. If it goes well and the team makes the playoffs, great. But is that likely? Even if Lock proves competent, is this really a top tier playoff team? Possible, but not probable. And Daboll knows this.
The reality is, Daboll's job is much more secure if he runs out DJ with the new shiny toys and tries to prove Mara's thesis that DJ has been a top ten quarterback all along who "the franchise has failed" these many years. Two GMs, three coaches and dozens of personnel changes have been the problem all along and DJ has simply been an innocent victim in a sea of chaos.
So my guess is, Schoen and Daboll will therefore start DJ in 2024 simply to appease Mara. If it fails, which everyone in the universe knows will except Mara, and maybe Jack Stroud although there is growing speculation that Stroud is simply Mara's BBI handle, Daboll will remain safe in his job and will finally get the chance to get his quarterback in 2025. Which is why they made no effort to reach for a quarterback at six in the draft or even select a developmental guy on day three. They are safe as long as they stick with DJ.
And so the 2024 season will not be over by Halloween this year. It will be over by Labor Day. The good news is, Ray in Arlington can begin presenting strength of schedule tie breakers this week!
DJ will start as long as he's healthy, he's making too much to be benched while healthy. Plus, we all know Mara loves him. He will not be benched if he is healthy.
Of course he will. Last year, Jones was 1-4 and injured with no return in sight and he had a historically bad start (2 TDs to 6 INTs) which was worst TD to pass attempts in over 70 years in NFL and the team had been blown out in every game and we sent Daboll out and everyone out to attest to the fact that Daniel Jones was the starter when he returned before and after virtually every game.
And we continue to do so after the season and before the draft and after the draft and even made Drew Lock say it.
When we speculate on how involved with player decisions John Mara is, there is an inherent grey area that these discussions cannot fully penetrate because he is THE man in the owner's chair - and there will always be owner influence to a certain degree (good and bad).
But does anyone here sincerely believe that Chris Mara and Tim McDonnell being hired to the front office was anyone's doing but John Mara? Chris & Tim may be true football diehards who do the work and put in the effort, but at the end of the day it does not matter how effective they are because they are family.
The owner giving extra seats at the table to his family members does not instill confidence. I worry being the GM of the Giants requires an additional special skill that has nothing to do with football - and that is being able to politick around the Maras when it comes time to make important roster decisions.
Yup. “Where there is smoke…” It is informative and seems more than simple media parroting. You never saw pundits speculate on this level and there are quite a few now. It feels fed from a source in the Giants building. Who would stand to gain by releasing such info?
I do not think it is a stretch to presume there may be a power struggle in the building over particular matters and Schoen and Daboll know Mara is sensitive to public perception. If this is the case, I hope the white knight (Schoen) can be successful in loosening Mara’s grip. We will see.
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In comment 16505955 Jay on the Island said:
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Mike Lombardi said that Mara was "in love" with Daniel Jones which is why this team struggles because they fall in love with certain players they should move on from. A day later now they have fallen "out of love" with Jones. A perfect summation of todays tabloid sports media.
I think Lombardi said that Mara was in love with Jones.
Florio's speculates that Schoen/Daboll do not and show Mara his error.
And of course the problem now is, if Daboll decides to run with Lock, he will face the same ire from Mara that McAdoo faced when he started Geno Smith instead of Eli in 2017. If it goes well and the team makes the playoffs, great. But is that likely? Even if Lock proves competent, is this really a top tier playoff team? Possible, but not probable. And Daboll knows this.
The reality is, Daboll's job is much more secure if he runs out DJ with the new shiny toys and tries to prove Mara's thesis that DJ has been a top ten quarterback all along who "the franchise has failed" these many years. Two GMs, three coaches and dozens of personnel changes have been the problem all along and DJ has simply been an innocent victim in a sea of chaos.
So my guess is, Schoen and Daboll will therefore start DJ in 2024 simply to appease Mara. If it fails, which everyone in the universe knows will except Mara, and maybe Jack Stroud although there is growing speculation that Stroud is simply Mara's BBI handle, Daboll will remain safe in his job and will finally get the chance to get his quarterback in 2025. Which is why they made no effort to reach for a quarterback at six in the draft or even select a developmental guy on day three. They are safe as long as they stick with DJ.
And so the 2024 season will not be over by Halloween this year. It will be over by Labor Day. The good news is, Ray in Arlington can begin presenting strength of schedule tie breakers this week!
Eye roll
When we speculate on how involved with player decisions John Mara is, there is an inherent grey area that these discussions cannot fully penetrate because he is THE man in the owner's chair - and there will always be owner influence to a certain degree (good and bad).
But does anyone here sincerely believe that Chris Mara and Tim McDonnell being hired to the front office was anyone's doing but John Mara? Chris & Tim may be true football diehards who do the work and put in the effort, but at the end of the day it does not matter how effective they are because they are family.
The owner giving extra seats at the table to his family members does not instill confidence. I worry being the GM of the Giants requires an additional special skill that has nothing to do with football - and that is being able to politick around the Maras when it comes time to make important roster decisions.
Oh yes indeed regarding the GM.
And why we can't get an experienced HC since Coughlin.
That's where I am. By saying Schoen is GMing with one hand tied behind his back because of Mara, Schoen is a sympathetic figure who really can't do his job the way he wants to.
What's his accountability?
If you want to criticize Schoen for passing on McCarthy that is absolutely valid, but bringing up 5 & 7 in 2022 I don't buy. He had shit luck. BBI's golden son, Adam Peters fell right into Jayden Daniels. Schoen didn't have that luck.
If you want to criticize Schoen for passing on McCarthy that is absolutely valid, but bringing up 5 & 7 in 2022 I don't buy. He had shit luck. BBI's golden son, Adam Peters fell right into Jayden Daniels. Schoen didn't have that luck.
I look at this way: Schoen inherited QB problems and in 2024 the situation is significantly worse than it was in 2022. If he hadn't paid Jones maybe we'd have Cousins, who knows.
If Mara has the call on QB, it's on Schoen to manage up and convince him paying Jones more than $3M is a waste of time and money. If Schoen can't prevent that disaster from happening then what good is he?
All of the good things happening elsewhere on the roster are overshadowed by this issue.
You mean the guy that Jones beat on the road in the playoffs the last time they played and checked down to his tight end on the final play of the game?
You mean the guy that Jones beat on the road in the playoffs the last time they played and checked down to his tight end on the final play of the game?
This is the stuff I love. So, Daniel Jones beat Kirk Cousins so he must be better but the laundry list of bad QBs that have beaten Jones over the past 5 seasons means nothing because it’s a team game and QBs don’t actually play against each other. Does that sound about right?