A few days ago he mocked the Giants for not addressing the QB position. Today I saw another clip where he said Lock very easily could beat out Jones in a "fair competition."
Regardless of your take on our QB situation, I find it interesting that Ross is openly questioning his old team so publicly.
Is your criticism of Ross based on his commentary as a pundit or his tenure as a personnel executive?
both. i disagree with your other post about former players or coaches, i think they have a lot more credibility because they had to perform day in and day out their entire careers in the public eye. they had to answer to the media and explain themselves/their play. it's all there on the tape to get picked apart.
what is on tape for marc ross is his draft classes - and in the time period he ran the NYG draft room he was provably awful.
that would be a credibility hit on its' own but as a pundit his first move was criticizing the giants roster for lacking talent like 6 months after he got fired for that exact same reason. he was the arsonist who called the fire dept.
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It's the '85 Bears, other than Jones.
Stop holding this dominant team back, Jones!
The dude is making $47M. He shouldn’t need to have the ‘85 fucking Bears lined up with him. But until he does I guess we just won’t know how good he can be!
The excuse train is so so exhausting.
I didn’t say he needed it. What he needs is a base floor of competence around him and most people who understand OL play and skill talent know he hasn’t had it. I was responding to the idea that DJ was the only thing holding the team back. This team has had massive issues that predate DJ ever being here, and need to be fixed, regardless of who the QB is. The fact that’s dismissed as making excuses tells it all. It’s not excuses, it’s the total picture.
At least they have a WR1 now. He’s got SOMETHING to work with.
It seems a lot of BBI wasn't that fond of the 2011 Super Bowl team. Would have preferred ground and pound.
that group won 1 ring and they dont do it without a core group who predated marc ross. his ring counts just like trent dilfers but we should keep both in appropriate context.
i can assure you if it was marc ross who personally pounded the table for cruz we would have heard him mention it a time or 200,000.
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Ross oversaw the acquisition of Nicks, Cruz, Manningham, and Ballard. That pass catching group was one of the cornerstones of winning a championship. The prologue is what it is, but let's not shit on rings.
It seems a lot of BBI wasn't that fond of the 2011 Super Bowl team. Would have preferred ground and pound.
some of us are fond of that team but not fond of the fact that they only resigned 1 player from the next 4 full drafts after that SB and ross' promotion.
I couldn't get Gettleman's co-pilot right if you gave me a thousand guesses.
The mid rounds make you, but the UDFAs don't count, am I right?
Instead, from 2012 to 2017, the "best" of that is Devon Kennard who didn't earn a second contract nor yielded great results on the field.
That's exactly why the New York Giants sucked in the 2010's and beyond. Failing to find mid round guys is what good front offices do. Not Marc Ross.
Eric, I think it would be 2 million times.
Marc is no different than Lombardi being a media blowhard. He's a smart guy, so what? Does that make his tenure as the Director of college scouting from 2012-2017 any good whatsoever? What amazing udfa's did he find?
I couldn't get Gettleman's co-pilot right if you gave me a thousand guesses.
The mid rounds make you, but the UDFAs don't count, am I right?
you can count whatever you want on his resume we have no idea. nobody knows who pushed for any 1 player. big picture the higher he got promoted the more he sucked at his job and there are statistics that prove it.
jerry reese was a giant for 2+ decades and had a provably massive impact on both super bowl teams. his 4 drafts as director of scouting built those runs. gibril wilson, barry cofield, brandon jacobs, boss, bradshaw were day 3 starters he found every year he ran the draft. i think the biggest reason reese got fired was his blind spot with each draft getting successively worse than the one before under ross.
LOL did you literally not watch the 2011 season?
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What amazing udfa's did he find?
LOL did you literally not watch the 2011 season?
LOL did he find them? He was a VP of player evaluation. Dave "the demon" Gettleman was director of player personnel. Oh shit, that means we would credit Dave to Victor Cruz then.
The running game was a big part of the '11 SB win. Check the stats and compare to the Pats.
LOL did he find them? He was a VP of player evaluation. Dave "the demon" Gettleman was director of player personnel. Oh shit, that means we would credit Dave to Victor Cruz then.
You asked what UDFAs. Cruz and Ballard were huge contributors.
Are you really questioning now if the college scouting or pro scouting department finds the college players?
Can you provide the list of players Coughlin was responsible for, and the ones the college scouting department was responsible for? That would make these debates way easier. Thanks!
I think the biggest reason he got fired was Ben McAdoo replacing Coughlin. The results from the time he was head of college scouting and the first several years he was GM speak for themselves.
My powers of clairvoyance aren't as strong as some of you, so I don't know who played what part.
What I know is several of the college players the Giants acquired from 2008-2011 played big roles in winning a championship.
If the head of college scouting wasn't a principal in those decisions, that's weird.
here's Seans OP from 2019:
Sean : mute : 3/12/2019 4:40 pm
Says the Giants missed their shot to draft Darnold last year & the Giants are all in on Eli for another year.
This guy certainly has a lot to say considering he was a complete disaster here.
Link - ( New Window )
Carl likely spent 10+ years in the building with Ross:
@CarlBanksGIII
�
10m
Be Clear, I am a supporter of Eli, and i know he won't play forever and transition must happen.. But I'll be Damn if I'm gonna let this guy who was responsible for building competent players around him take a sh#t on him! Kick Rocks Ross!
BBI's own BigblueVCR
Ross
Matt in SGS : mute : 3/12/2019 5:41 pm : link
is the guy who shows up at your house, throws everything out of your fridge on to the floor, breaks a window, and takes a shit in your sink. He leaves and then comes back in and says "what the hell happened here, what slobs fucked this place up?"
Eric from BBI:
If I were Marc Ross, I wouldn't even dare to criticize the team right now after how he fucked the organization up.
It turns out I agreed with old sean a lot:
Sean : mute : 3/12/2019 7:50 pm : link
2 time SB champion GM, with the Giant organization from 1994-2017 & not 1 negative word about the franchise from him.
PatersonPlank : mute : 3/12/2019 7:00 pm : link
viability
from the thread title it sounds like this wasn't even the first time he'd started talking after getting fired just 1 season earlier.
Marc Ross is quite the testament to no such thing as bad publicity. Create enough noise to make yourself relevant, let enough time go by and people will forget how you got there in the first place.
sorry for the interlude, we can now return to bending over backwards to pretend his drafts have gotten any better from how they looked 5 years ago (they didnt) or that he's said anything remotely incisive since then to build his credibility as an analyst re nyg or anything else (he hasnt).
Marc Ross talking again- Sean : mute : 3/12/2019 4:40 pm - ( New Window )
https://www.nfl.com/videos/ross-2022-giants-eerily-similar-to-2007-giants-team-that-won-super-bowl
If you want rationalize your way out of giving Ross any credit by 1) claiming the good players they drafted didn't take scouting 2) the head coach was the driving force behind drafting the good players 3) the scouting department isn't responsible for UDFAs -- that's some logical barrel scraping I'll leave y'all to.
Over here on planet logic, I'm quite comfortable with the simple explanation the collective group did well scouting, drafting, and developing players for a period.
And then for a period did not. For which they all lost their jobs.
I've worked at enough good organizations that tapered off and eventually didn't do well, to know sustaining success is really hard. And that the causes are often bad luck, ego, and erosion at the top and bottom.
The Giants have been mostly poor for 7 years now since Ross was fired, him having an opinion on Jones now doesn't move the needle for me.
The Giants have been mostly poor for 7 years now since Ross was fired, him having an opinion on Jones now doesn't move the needle for me.
Sean, welcome to the monthly installment of Coughlin Made All the Good Decisions, and None of the Bad.
In this fever dream Coughlin was the driving force in selecting the players who worked out between 2004-2011.
But strangely he wasn't responsible for neglecting the offensive line. That was Reese and Ross.
I imagine they all sat down and decided Coughlin is in charge of receivers and Reese is in charge of lineman. Probably something like that.
And then after winning a second championship in five years, some overlord force, presumably John Mara came in and decreed Coughlin wasn't to be that involved in personnel.
This makes perfect sense.
I agree with this mostly.
same here. same with Louis Riddick
Are we overlooking Drew Lock? - ( New Window )
Randy Mueller does media now, too, and we never see him lower himself attached to these childish and petty statements.
For being such a smart Princeton guy, he wasn't very good at his NFL job inside the team building.
We have a few folks in here crediting Victor Cruz to him when he was simply a VP of player evaluation. And it's amusing they don't talk about his days as the Director of college scouting at all, where his job is to find mid and late round players. No, they focus on the 1st and 2nd rounders like he discovered them.
I doubt the great and highly respected Ozzie "Two Rings" Newsome would have very soft demand if he was let go in his early 50's.
The Giants have been mostly poor for 7 years now since Ross was fired, him having an opinion on Jones now doesn't move the needle for me.
how does the giants continuing to be poor make ross any more credible of commentator? reread the OP - the thread was about Ross and his frequent magnetism of commentary toward his old team, the point many of us have calling out (including you in that thread from 2019) is that this is a 6 years running clickbait.
him having an opinion on jones shouldnt move the needle for anyone. his mask was off long ago.
seems materially different than this one from (checks notes...) 4 days ago:
In comment 16502867 christian said:
but hey i get it, hard to pass on the chance to pull a 180 to defend marc ross' legacy.
but hey i get it, hard to pass on the chance to pull a 180 to defend marc ross' legacy.
At no point have I ever agreed with Marc Ross's point-of-view on Lock. I think Lock is a terrible football player.
My very simple view is that Ross's opinion isn't any more or any less valid because of his tenure with the Giants.
The punditry class is full of ex-players and front office folks who had mixed success.
You asked what UDFAs he found, and I pointed out that both Cruz and Ballard were UDFAs, and both were huge contributors to the 2011 championship.
Cruz and Ballard were both UDFA in 2010, when Marc Ross was the Director of College scouting. Ross was promoted to VP of Player Evaluation in 2013.
Nicks, Manningham, Cruz, Ballard, and Pascoe (drafted by SF, cut, and signed by NYG in the same season) were all players who went through the college scouting process acquired by the Giants.
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The only way Lock pushes Jones in camp is if gets behind him with two hands.
but hey i get it, hard to pass on the chance to pull a 180 to defend marc ross' legacy.
At no point have I ever agreed with Marc Ross's point-of-view on Lock. I think Lock is a terrible football player.
My very simple view is that Ross's opinion isn't any more or any less valid because of his tenure with the Giants.
The punditry class is full of ex-players and front office folks who had mixed success.
so you weight marc ross' opinions on lock (that you dont agree with) the same as say belichick's on nabers? or saban's on nubin? or bill polians on anything? wearing a nice suit on tv levels the playing field so they are all simply pundits of the same credibility level?
i trust ross' comments on anything giants related about as much as i trust tiki's comments on lockerroom leadership circa the 2007 giants. he is a well established click bait commentator when it comes to the giants, just like lombardi. being a broken clock doesnt change that.
That's not even the same galaxy of what I think.
I weigh the opinion of commentators based on the evidence they bring forward to support a point-of-view.
If Nick Saban has a lazy observation, his championship rings don't make that observation more or less correct.
If Steve Mariucci has a well supported opinion, his disappointing tenure in Detroit doesn't make that observation more or less correct.
Marc Ross says things I think are correct, and things I don't think are correct.
That he did a poor job managing the drafts from 2012-2017 has little influence on my view of his observations today.
the point as has been true for 5 years dating back before the thread i posted is that he will shamelessly say hyperbolic things about the nyg to get attention - like that the roster was in shambles in 2018/2019 while ignoring he drafted most of it. that's called a troll.
you are bending yourself backwards for troll rights on an opinion you specifically disagreed with 180 degrees. it's a little bizarre.
I think Marc Ross sometimes says things I agree with and sometimes says things I don't agree with.
I have a more positive view on his opinion, because I have a more positive view on his tenure with the Giants. And so I think he has more qualification.
There are certainly many things to criticize about him. Chief among them his results from 2012-2017.
I agree with him the Giants should move on from Jones, but I disagree Lock will be the one who makes that happen.
Your skills of divination around my opinions kind of suck.
"There are certainly many things to criticize about him. Chief among them his results from 2012-2017."
Putting his name, his stamp and his credibility on udfa's, free agents or draft picks prior to 2012 is just wrong.
His job after his promotion was to find mid and late round targets, udfa's, etc. He was extremely bad at that and that's why the roster was in such disarray when DG walked back in, and the man had no qualms to make remarks about the roster (in 2019). That was HIS mess.
"There are certainly many things to criticize about him. Chief among them his results from 2012-2017."
Putting his name, his stamp and his credibility on udfa's, free agents or draft picks prior to 2012 is just wrong.
His job after his promotion was to find mid and late round targets, udfa's, etc. He was extremely bad at that and that's why the roster was in such disarray when DG walked back in, and the man had no qualms to make remarks about the roster (in 2019). That was HIS mess.
You keep exhibiting over and over that you don't understand what his job with the Giants entailed.
He was hired after the draft in 2007 as the Director of College Scouting. His job was scouting and leading the draft process. He was in that role from 2007-2013.
He was responsible for the draft picks and undrafted free agents the Giants acquired during that period.
Dave Gettleman got the job in Carolina, and Ross was promoted to Vice President of Player Evaluation for the 2013 season. Reese described his new job this way:
I have a more positive view on his opinion, because I have a more positive view on his tenure with the Giants. And so I think he has more qualification.
if you have a positive view of ross' tenure just bc he won a ring in a midlevel position before taking the wheel and driving the roster into a ditch do you also have a positive view of dg?
ironically the 1 big specific scouting success under his watch you keep trying to hype him for, victor cruz, was actually credited to nyg icon chris "2 rings" petit, should we get him in line for the next fond remembrance after dg? or do we need them to both come out and publicly criticize schoen's drafting first before they qualify?
Who found Blue's Cruz? We'll tell you - Rich Cimini, ESPN Staff Writer Feb 3, 2012 - ( New Window )
I'm also quite aware Ross had a staff who was responsible for evaluating and recommending players. That's kind of how this thing works. I wasn't under the impression that he individually found each player.
I don't know why this is such an exotic view for you to wrap your head around. I can recognize when individuals have done well, and not done well at their jobs, and what their jobs were.
I don't know why this is such an exotic view for you to wrap your head around. I can recognize when individuals have done well, and not done well at their jobs, and what their jobs were.
that doesnt seem to be true with marc ross.
his job was the full drafts from 2008-2017 and all you can cite to defend his "positive" track record are the specific players who won rings in 2011.
even if you cherry picked just his 2008-2011 drafts, statistically they werent that impressive. 9 starters in 4 draft classes isn't that good. cruz the only one after the 2nd round. that is why the team fell apart so abruptly in 2012/2013/2014 even before his 2012+ draft classes busted as bad as they did. chris petit's 4 drafts totaled the same.
I think with better health for Phillips, Thomas, Goff, Nicks, Beatty, Jones, JPP, Cruz, and Ballard -- the Giants would have been in the championship hunt in 2012 and 2013.
I'm perfectly comfortable expressing the majority of the success came at the top of the drafts. You'll get no argument from me there.
But I also think players like Cruz, Ballard, Pascoe, and to an extent Herzlich and Hynoski were contributors to a championship season.
I think quality was there, if not the quantity.
christian : 2/15/2023 7:56 am : link
What's confounding is Gettleman did a great job running pro personnel for Reese and Accorsi.
And then as Giants GM did well drafting college players, but a miserable overall job with acquiring veterans.
christian : 1/19/2023 12:37 pm : link
General management doesn't begin and end with acquiring talent. Being a good GM extends beyond managing a good college and pro personnel shop.
Being a good GM also means hiring and maintaining a good coaching staff, operations and insights staff, training and sports medicine staff, player development staff, and resource management plan. And most importantly managing up to ownership.
Did Gettleman suucceed when it comes to:
- Coaching
- Operations and insights
- Training and sports medicine
- Player development
- Resource management
- Managing up to ownership
Rabbit Foot Dave was promoted to his level of incompetency. He made a fine pro personnel guy, and probably would have been best positioned to lead college scouting.
in 10 drafts i would say ross hit that milestone 1x, his first year with phillips, thomas, manningham, goff. he had several way below with 2 including a few 1's/0's like 2011 & 2012.
in 4 drafts i would say petit hit it 2x. 2018 and 2019.
as drafters i think both were below average but ross well below. he never hit on day 3 picks.
jerry reese on the other hand ran the drafts from 04-07 and basically went 4/4 and grabbed day 3 starters every year. my respect for jerry reese and the way he's carried himself since leaving the giants is matched by my frustration with him for blowing it on his evals of marc ross and ben mcadoo. he had the talent to be gm for life here if he'd surrounded himself with better people.