No I wont turn in my fan card, still will root for them but man it is bleak in my eyes. And as I thought through the draft and offseason, I think JS is to blame which makes it even darker.
It starts with Jones who I like. After watching him get outplayed by Tyrod Taylor and Devito how can you have faith? Aside from his injuries, what has he shown you that he can overcome adversity vs good teams? I wanted him to take that step last year but he went in reverse and I believe his head is screwed up. I do blame Judge for him and a terrible cast but it doesn't mean he isn't broken goods.
I wanted Penix but I would have been fine with McCarthy/Nix. No way they are worse than Jones imo. But they have upside or at least Kevin O connell and Sean Payton think so. Two guys who know QBs a little bit.
The Burns trade which sounded good but I wanted Huff. Knowing the Giants could have signed Huff and Armstrong for the same money and mitigated injury risk without losing that 2nd rd pick? A 4 man rotation of Thibs/Huff/Armstrong/AO? Yes I preferred that.
And that #2 pick? holy crap they had their pick of CBs, Mckistry, Lassiter, Melton, ALL there. Or how about Jackson JOhnson? A OG/OC sound good?
Then at #47 they draft Mckinney's replacement - oh great! Let's not sign Julian Love a very good homegrown player to save money to sign Mckinney. Mckinney has a good season and is now too EXPENSIVE? So draft another S with a premium pick? How about a DT here? Or Adonai Mitchell? SO happy we still have Slayton!
The OL will dictate a bunch how this goes. Will JMS develop? Can AT stay healthy? Will Neal stop being a baby? I have little faith the Giants can fix this, its only been 10 years since they had some semblance of a good OL. Will the FAs work out? When was the last guy who did?
Nabers impact? We won how many games with OBJ? WHo in his wildest dreams Nabers hopes he can come close to.
JS better pray that that trio of McCarthy/Nix/Penix all bomb. Because if one of those guys flourishes, it shows his scouting didn't cut it again. I want some continuity but we know Mara is really a fan at heart and will fire JS if they have a bad season. Someone has to take the fall (not him).
Just wanted to get this out, I've lost faith in this FO and I think this year will be another wasted one of frustration and lost time. Damn its too early to drink.
Maybe we are building picks for Arch!
Superstars at other positions are worth less than 2 points a game. An upgrade from a bad QB to a good QB is worth around 5 to 7 points a game. Nabers is a great WR, but with bad QB play, all you are doing is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Superstars at other positions are worth less than 2 points a game. An upgrade from a bad QB to a good QB is worth around 5 to 7 points a game.
And what is your source for this?
Looking at Jones career here, there was optimism regarding his play generally entering year 2020, 2021 & 2023. The comp would be 2022, but with a new regime and no worthy lottery QBs in the 2022 draft, fans were fine with it,
Even in 2018, there was curiosity how a Manning-Barkley-Beckham offense would perform.
This year? We are just waiting until what the 2025 QB crop looks like.
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Superstars at other positions are worth less than 2 points a game. An upgrade from a bad QB to a good QB is worth around 5 to 7 points a game.
And what is your source for this?
This is pretty widely known and discussed. You can find variations of the argument in positional value discussions and WAR discussions. The point differential is a Vegas metric. You can google positional points against the spread (ATS). A lot of the research and discussion is older, so you can conclude that the difference between QB and other positions is even more pronounced than when these discussions were created.
Here is one such Vegas discussion
https://www.boydsbets.com/nfl-player-values-against-the-point-spread/
I think he is low on elite QBs than the present understanding.
And there was an academic paper about this subject:
https://www.uwlax.edu/globalassets/centersprograms/menard/nfl-players-value.pdf
But you can google yourself and maybe find more up to date pieces.
Whatever…
FYI - they viewed Nabers as a special, special talent, who can transform an entire position group and the offense.
They didn’t feel QBs 4-6 were worth a #1 pick. It wasn’t an indiscriminate choice.
Superstars at other positions are worth less than 2 points a game. An upgrade from a bad QB to a good QB is worth around 5 to 7 points a game. Nabers is a great WR, but with bad QB play, all you are doing is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Stop blaming it all on the boogyman.
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... backup level QB play. And Mara has essentially forced his coaches to make it work with well below league average signal callers. It's so fucking obvious everyone knows it, the whole league knows it. The only folks who seem clueless about it are Giants ownership and a hardcore segment of fans on this board.
Superstars at other positions are worth less than 2 points a game. An upgrade from a bad QB to a good QB is worth around 5 to 7 points a game. Nabers is a great WR, but with bad QB play, all you are doing is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Stop blaming it all on the boogyman.
There is data that tells you how poor Daniel Jones is. And there is data that quantifies how many points per game you are sacrificing with poor QB play. And the Giants have failed to field a proper starting QB since 2017. And what has their record been though this period? And you are calling it a bogeyman.
Just tell me you don't believe in math and science when we start the conversation, so I can tune out your end of it.
The Giants have consistently eschewed an analytical approach, and their maneuvers at QB are especially egregious. They have been behind the 8-ball mathematically for the last 7 years - and they have been predictably awful during the period - entirely predictable.
but yea --- bogeyman.
There are definitely growing pains to come, but think about it, this team is really only three draft classes deep right now. A significant core of their draft classes (particularly the first two since we just had draft #3) look like their are many more keepers than not in my eyes. I think JS/BD will really need five drafts for a proper valuation -- especially since it really takes three years to assess a draft class. That will show the meat and potatoes of whether this FO has done it's job.
Think about the stars that developed on the Giants like Tuck, Strahan and CWebb. Even Coughlin's Oline didn't really set until three + years of play and roster tinkering.
So for my money this team is a Work in Progress with some exciting parts that have been and continue to grow. I need to watch their development and how things progress. There will be some interesting pieces to watch this season and going forward for those reasons. And it will be interesting to see how the new coaches meld and if noticeable change is going to happen because of them.
One thing I do like about Daboll in particular is that he got those boys out there to play - even in the midst of a miserable season last year and a ton of cluster-fucks.
SO as concerned as I am about the roster holes on this team - I am also excited about the talent that is starting to assemble under this regime and I look forward to seeing how that plays out. I do think JS has assembled a good team for the FO and that they are very professional with a good set of critical eyes, so I am not ready to throw them under the bus yet.
Great post.
I'll add that anybody who questions whether or not this team is heading in the right direction with JS and BD needs to go back and watch the shit show that was the 2021 Giants, then re-watch the 2022 Giants.
Yes, 2023 was a very weird year with a bad record. Ironically, they could have been 9-8 instead of 6-11 if 3-4 plays or calls go their way. This is todays NFL.
I love the Burns trade. I know a Carolina fan and he cannot believe that we got him for a 2nd round pick. Our front is gonna be very good.
I wanted a new QB this draft but I respect JS not overpaying for Maye and will trust he felt Nabers was far better than McCarthy at 6.
One last thing. You spend your money and high picks on Pass Rushers and WR's in todays NFL, not FS and RB.
The Giants believe in positional value, traded for Burns and drafted Nabers and let McKinney and Barkley get overpaid by other teams. The shift to modern asset allocation is in motion.
The point I'm making is you don't know anything. Nobody does. We can probably assume we're not competing for a super bowl but everything beyond that is on the table. I suspect this team wasn't as bad as it looked last year just like it wasn't as good as it did the year before. We're in limbo at QB with and incumbent coaching staff, that's where you feel the lack of juice. I think a healthy perspective going into this season is to hope that players from Schoen's draft classes show development. If that happens, you'll find reason for optimism as the table could be set to drop a QB in. If it doesn't, then we will be discussing whether or not to move on come winter. That's where it should be interesting as a fan.
JS isn't going anywhere and the Giants are going to be competitive this year....
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In comment 16511570 Darwinian said:
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... backup level QB play. And Mara has essentially forced his coaches to make it work with well below league average signal callers. It's so fucking obvious everyone knows it, the whole league knows it. The only folks who seem clueless about it are Giants ownership and a hardcore segment of fans on this board.
Superstars at other positions are worth less than 2 points a game. An upgrade from a bad QB to a good QB is worth around 5 to 7 points a game. Nabers is a great WR, but with bad QB play, all you are doing is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Stop blaming it all on the boogyman.
There is data that tells you how poor Daniel Jones is. And there is data that quantifies how many points per game you are sacrificing with poor QB play. And the Giants have failed to field a proper starting QB since 2017. And what has their record been though this period? And you are calling it a bogeyman.
Just tell me you don't believe in math and science when we start the conversation, so I can tune out your end of it.
The Giants have consistently eschewed an analytical approach, and their maneuvers at QB are especially egregious. They have been behind the 8-ball mathematically for the last 7 years - and they have been predictably awful during the period - entirely predictable.
but yea --- bogeyman.
Giants have one of the deeper analytical groups in the NFL. Not really my point though. Giants have sucked, again, not the point.
POint is you're blaming the DJ QB thing on Mara. Nope. IT aint mara. Schoen and Daboll liked what he did in 22 and signed him off that year. Deal with it. You don't have to like it but using Mara as a scapegoat is weak.
They aren't paying attention to how this team operates. They aren't firing Schoen simply because of one bad year that followed a very good year.
Reminder, this team has a better won/loss record over the last 2 years than any other 2 year span since 2012. Low bar yes, but don't ignore what they did in 22. 23 was bad shouldn't erase 2022. And it doesn't have to mean that 2024 will be awful either.
You asked a question. I took the time to answer it, with some citations including an academic take on the subject. I was nice to you. I took some time with it. I shouldn't have bothered. You weren't interested in anything resembling a civilized discourse. What, you don't think my time is valuable? You're an arrogant prick who is trolling people up and down this and other threads.
But you are also a poster child of the Dunning-Kruger effect. You haven't a clue what you are reading and you know just enough to arrogantly flout your ignorance with dopey, ignorant assertions.
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I got two articles on betting. So basically more BS from a dupe.
You asked a question. I took the time to answer it, with some citations including an academic take on the subject. I was nice to you. I took some time with it. I shouldn't have bothered. You weren't interested in anything resembling a civilized discourse. What, you don't think my time is valuable? You're an arrogant prick who is trolling people up and down this and other threads.
But you are also a poster child of the Dunning-Kruger effect. You haven't a clue what you are reading and you know just enough to arrogantly flout your ignorance with dopey, ignorant assertions.
Are you the PRODUCER of MANHATTAN?
You have been the worst poster in this site for awhile and on another site. No one cares what you have to say.
Of course the overreactions are unbearable. But I find it to be just a few posters who have nothing better to do to convince people how smart they are. They don’t wanna talk about football. Even if they claim they do.
It's been every year since I've joined
"This is our year!"
*Giants suck*
"Well...next year will be our year!"
*Off-season, rinse, repeat*
I disagree with you regarding the draft.
They tried to get their guy but the Patriots in the end did not agree to the trade. They tried.
So instead they got the #1 WR in the draft and the #1 safety. That is two of the top 22 starting positions going to the Giants. I think that is a positive.
Next, they may actually have also drafted the best tight end for this team. He is the biggest guy and is the best blocker of the group. An old school TE and not a WR with an extra 20 lbs.
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In comment 16511751 JT039 said:
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I got two articles on betting. So basically more BS from a dupe.
You asked a question. I took the time to answer it, with some citations including an academic take on the subject. I was nice to you. I took some time with it. I shouldn't have bothered. You weren't interested in anything resembling a civilized discourse. What, you don't think my time is valuable? You're an arrogant prick who is trolling people up and down this and other threads.
But you are also a poster child of the Dunning-Kruger effect. You haven't a clue what you are reading and you know just enough to arrogantly flout your ignorance with dopey, ignorant assertions.
Are you the PRODUCER of MANHATTAN?
You have been the worst poster in this site for awhile and on another site. No one cares what you have to say.
Ok, dep.
I suppose it's that time of year when lots of fans deceive themselves. Reality will hit after 1 or 2 games that look exactly like the vast majority of games from the last 5 years.
It's a sad state of affairs. We are on the path to being a team like the Saints or Raiders with an upside of the Steelers. You'd think Giants fans would want more.
I suppose it's that time of year when lots of fans deceive themselves. Reality will hit after 1 or 2 games that look exactly like the vast majority of games from the last 5 years.
It's a sad state of affairs. We are on the path to being a team like the Saints or Raiders with an upside of the Steelers. You'd think Giants fans would want more.
💯
This is the high point of the roller coaster; the best part of the Giants' calendar year. People are getting excited over Nabers signing his contract and catching a crossing route in a walk through.
I remember when Toney was going to team with Barkley to make this team a YAC monster. This year feels like that.
I suppose it's that time of year when lots of fans deceive themselves. Reality will hit after 1 or 2 games that look exactly like the vast majority of games from the last 5 years.
It's a sad state of affairs. We are on the path to being a team like the Saints or Raiders with an upside of the Steelers. You'd think Giants fans would want more.
Well said. I feel the same. Settling for mediocrity instead of searching for answers and a fan base that can't tell the difference.
More nonsense being spewed.
Even though there's a couple of things that happened, that I thought were unfortunate - the loss of Saquon (the hated Eagles sure jumped all over that); not drafting Brock Bowers (who I think will be ALL PRO as a rookie).
I've always been against drafting a QB - screwing up twice, EXCEPT if you really believe on that ONE guy. They gave it their best shot going after Maye, it didn't work out so they went after who they thought was the BPA, can't get mad about that.
Good stuff's happened -
Draft-wise, it's like we scored two #1s with the trade for Burns & draft pick Nabers.
Besides Nabers, the draft picks that I very much looking forward to seeing are safety Tyler Nubin and TE Theo Johnson
Two new coaches - Even though I like Wink's balls-to-the-wall approach, we just don't have the horses. Shane Bowen style is a better fit and will deliver more wins. What I like about Carmen Bricillo, the new Offensive Line Coordinator is that he learned and worked with THE Master O-line coach Dante Scarnecchia at New England. I think we'll see improvement very quickly.
Overall this team is just as good (or better) than the team who snuck-up on the NFL to record nine wins, Daboll, is still a good coach. The Sky's not falling.
From a business POV, it makes sense. After so many years of being shitty, most of us would be happy if we'd had a second year in a row of mediocrity. It'd be several more years before we realized we were stuck in a different rut.
I think that was part of the Jones/Barkley debacle last offseason. Many folks wanted us to take a step backward to rebuild. Management saw how happy we were to have a decent season, and envisioned another one would have us thinking we were back. So rather than jettison 2 players who were not taking us to the promised land, they were re-signed.
The flip side is that slow and steady can win the race, so gradual improvement is a viable strategy. After so many years of sucking, fans don't have the patience for gradual, though.
The Rangers did exactly that and fans were on board with it. The Knicks have had a patient build and the fans absolutely love them, even though they don't have championship ceiling yet.
The Giants could have done this. But its not what they communicate and it's not what their actions indicate
The Rangers did exactly that and fans were on board with it. The Knicks have had a patient build and the fans absolutely love them, even though they don't have championship ceiling yet.
The Giants could have done this. But its not what they communicate and it's not what their actions indicate
Patience is the mantra of loser organizations.
Take the Mets. Under Wilpon they were a loser organization. If Wilpon were still the owner last year they would've made some small buying moves when they were 6 games out of the wild card with the hope of playing "meaningful" games in September.
Cohen saw the reality of the situation and sold at the deadline because he could accurately assess the situation and demonstrated some patience. Will it work? Nobody knows. But the process is good.
The problem with the Giants is they've had backup level QB play for 7 years. We won't know how good our "roster" is until we have a competent QB.
Schoen was willing to give up a ton for the QB he thought was worth it. He didn’t want to settle for QBs atleast a rung below, maybe more. Thats a reasonable stance, but obviously needs to be backed up with continued roster improvement to the point where we are “a qb away” and pounce on whatever opportunity presents itself in 2025.
When your O-line gives up 85 sacks and your running game is facing a 9-man line, all day, while your D-line is a turn-style THAT is defined as mediocrity
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do have the patience. Teams can have a plan, communicate the plan to the fans, and then have their actions match their words.
The Rangers did exactly that and fans were on board with it. The Knicks have had a patient build and the fans absolutely love them, even though they don't have championship ceiling yet.
The Giants could have done this. But its not what they communicate and it's not what their actions indicate
Patience is the mantra of loser organizations.
Schoen was willing to give up a ton for the QB he thought was worth it. He didn’t want to settle for QBs atleast a rung below, maybe more. Thats a reasonable stance, but obviously needs to be backed up with continued roster improvement to the point where we are “a qb away” and pounce on whatever opportunity presents itself in 2025.
That's about right.
Schoen was willing to give up a ton for the QB he thought was worth it. He didn’t want to settle for QBs atleast a rung below, maybe more. Thats a reasonable stance, but obviously needs to be backed up with continued roster improvement to the point where we are “a qb away” and pounce on whatever opportunity presents itself in 2025.
We'll soon find out if selecting Penix, Nix and JJM was settling. If any one of them is great the clock should start ticking on Schoen.
They sure seem overly-patient replacing a failure of a QB who has monopolized the roster for half a decade.
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It's not how this regime is operating, however.
They sure seem overly-patient replacing a failure of a QB who has monopolized the roster for half a decade.
A patient team wouldn't have paid him.
I don't think they're all that interested in replacing him.
This is it. This is the team Schoen and Daboll came in to build. Our expectations should be very high this year.
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such a preposterous claim. It certainly can be, just like being too aggressive and being reckless.
Schoen was willing to give up a ton for the QB he thought was worth it. He didn’t want to settle for QBs atleast a rung below, maybe more. Thats a reasonable stance, but obviously needs to be backed up with continued roster improvement to the point where we are “a qb away” and pounce on whatever opportunity presents itself in 2025.
We'll soon find out if selecting Penix, Nix and JJM was settling. If any one of them is great the clock should start ticking on Schoen.
Not really.