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Dust has cleared

Thegratefulhead : 5/13/2024 11:07 am
If you remove emotion and attachments to your predictions or desires and look at it with unbiased eyes, it is hard to conclude we have not gotten better. I am also encouraged by the actions of the GM and head coach, enough so, that I feel that we have the right people in place.

Schoen did a great job negotiating the Jones contract.

Line in the sand for many and it shows how far apart we can be in thinking. To me, Jones had the leverage in negotiations, he had just won a playoff game away and had led an untalented team to the playoffs. Also, financially we could have drafted a QB in rd 1, the contract was not an obstacle in 2024 and definitely not long term. Proof to me, that it was a good contract for the team in the scenario they were in. If Schoen had let Jones go and 2023 happened I think he is fired at season’s end.

It doesn’t matter who was at QB in 2023, in my opinion the season would have played out the same way. Look awful early and better when the OL got healthy and started to gel. I looked deeply at the all-22 of the first 5 games. Neal wasn’t even injured at all and it was like his off season training messed him up, he looked confused.

The way this team handled the draft.

Admit they had us running in circles.

Clueless, all of us, including the media.

Well executed.

Burns, wow.

The way Daboll has handled the situations with his staff leads me to believe we have an actual alpha at the helm. Season was going to shit, took over play calling, made zero issue of it but wanted all the responsibility. Wink was undermining his authority and Daboll went gansta.

Shurmur and Judge were pretending. Judge was a wacka doo, in technical terms. What happened under Judge doesn’t count in my mind, they ran a 90s offense.

I wanted McCarthy at 6 but I understand I don’t have the critical information to truly question these decisions. I wasn’t in the interviews and I don’t know the state of Jones recovery or the intimate details of his injuries. The player they drafted instead could wear a gold jacket some day.

How can I act like a dick without knowing?

I loved the offseason and draft.

I think we have the right leadership team in place and they appear to be on the same page.

I don’t believe the QB sucks, not close to elite either, but I believe his talents play in this offense if we protect him reasonably.

It is easy to look forward to this season for me.

Training camp is just around the corner, more will become clear.
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That Minnesota game had to have been the single greatest  
nygiantfan : 5/13/2024 2:35 pm : link
achievement by an NFL QB in the history of the sport.

Somehow this wildcard victory provided tremendous leverage to Team Jones, a QB that had a winning percentage of about 35% over his first 60 starts while throwing for only 62 TDs and 42 Ints.

And even despite this leverage, Schoen is described by this OP doing a great job negotiating this contract only giving Jones a $160M deal with only a mere $90M in guarantees and a decent injury guarantee.

Thank goodness Schoen kept his head about him while putting this one on the books.
RE: RE: RE: Hmmmm...  
Thegratefulhead : 5/13/2024 2:56 pm : link
In comment 16513565 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 16513448 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


BW i know what the hind sight looked like. IDGAF. I the were year 1 GM coach that were the toast of town. There was no way Jones was not getting signed. It was the easiest thing in the world to predict. I wont go down this road with you. Live in your world with your narrative. I respect your opinion, I LOOK for your posts. I am confident I have a good grasp of your opinion on this. I totally disagree.



You need to look at this through the lens of reasonability.

What was the more reasonable approach? Rewarding a good year or a great year?

If Jones had a great year in 2022, there is a much stronger case for the multi-year contract.

But his 2022 was good. And what brought his performance up to good was the running performance, not the passing.

So, there was much more to prove, especially on the passing side with Jones. Thus, applying either tag was much more reasonable that the 4yr contract. And this isn't hindsight. It was discussed in depth on the board from the end of the season through Jones re-signing in March of 2023.
getting new ink atm. I want to answer this. Can’t atm
Bw  
Lines of Scrimmage : 5/13/2024 2:59 pm : link
Why would you want to use the transition tag?

More leverage with the NEFT with the draft compensation and the financial impact of the two tags is not very big.
I prefer to say that Schoen did the best he could do with Jones's deal  
BlackLight : 5/13/2024 3:02 pm : link
Plenty argue that they should've FT'd him and made him prove it, but that would've likely meant we let Barkley walk away and/or we don't have the money to sign Okereke. It's unclear that we'd be in any better a spot then than we are now.
The Jones deal wasn’t  
Keaton028 : 5/13/2024 3:29 pm : link
good and Jones ain’t it at QB. It’s just one thing among a myriad of issues the Giants have had forever. The OLine is still at best an unknown, at worst an ongoing mess. It remains to be seen if some mid-tier free agent signings can bolster the unit, but we are relying on Neal to develop for this unit to succeed. We are praying for AT to stay healthy. Do we have depth on offense? We are also relying on a rookie Nabers to breathe life into this offense. Outside of him it is mostly the same unit as last year sans Barkley. I don’t know. For me it is a lot of placing faith into health and unproven players, which the Giants recently haven’t been lucky with.
RE: The Jones deal wasn’t  
Brown_Hornet : 5/13/2024 3:35 pm : link
In comment 16513609 Keaton028 said:
Quote:
good and Jones ain’t it at QB. It’s just one thing among a myriad of issues the Giants have had forever. The OLine is still at best an unknown, at worst an ongoing mess. It remains to be seen if some mid-tier free agent signings can bolster the unit, but we are relying on Neal to develop for this unit to succeed. We are praying for AT to stay healthy. Do we have depth on offense? We are also relying on a rookie Nabers to breathe life into this offense. Outside of him it is mostly the same unit as last year sans Barkley. I don’t know. For me it is a lot of placing faith into health and unproven players, which the Giants recently haven’t been lucky with.
That's not all wrong, but what was the alternative?
RE: Hmmmm...  
EJNNJ : 5/13/2024 3:46 pm : link
In comment 16513429 bw in dc said:
Quote:


Quote:


Schoen did a great job negotiating the Jones contract.







(Quick disclaimer: I absolutely believe Schoen drove the Jones contract, not Mara)

Now, a sentence like this takes an incredible imagination - consider that a euphemism - to call that outcome great.

Right now, Jones is paid at the 10th best player in the NFL heading into the 2024 season. Just think about that. There is absolutely nothing great about that.

Rewarding a player for 15 passing TDs and playing well in a playoff game against a putrid Minnesota D, was much better handled with another one-year, prove it deal. Which, btw, would have avoided the injury clause issue, too...



I think the "Great Job" is seen in term of the contract not the $$, He was going to get paid and we had to pay up for the optionality of getting out if it didn't play out well. I'd much rather have the 2-3 year out than than a 5-7yr albatross.
Brown Hornet  
Keaton028 : 5/13/2024 3:50 pm : link
It might not have been popular in the moment but I always thought making Jones “do it again” was the right answer. The franchise tag would have been expensive but not binding long term.

Im not down on Joe Schoen or Daboll yet, but more just not ready to pronounce the Giants as a better team as OP states. There biggest issues are still their biggest issues. They are not a better team until they prove it. If people want the warm and fuzzies about this team, by all means, but I don’t see a real basis for it.
*  
Keaton028 : 5/13/2024 3:51 pm : link
Their biggest issues are still their biggest issues.
I don't see how you can say that Jones had all the leverage  
Milton : 5/13/2024 4:05 pm : link
The Giants could've tagged him. Sure, it would've meant allowing Barkley to test free agency, but clearly Schoen and Daboll were not enamored of Barkley. People here talk of Schoen/Daboll being saddled with Jones because of Mara, but their actions demonstrate it was Barkley to whom they were saddled.

As I see it, there were only two reasons to opt for going with the $40M/year four year deal over the $32M franchise tag: 1) they feared Carolina would sign him; 2) coming off a 2022 season that exceeded expectations, they were confident 2023 would be a banner year and felt Jones would command $50M/year in 2024.
RE: I don't see how you can say that Jones had all the leverage  
Sean : 5/13/2024 4:17 pm : link
In comment 16513648 Milton said:
Quote:
The Giants could've tagged him. Sure, it would've meant allowing Barkley to test free agency, but clearly Schoen and Daboll were not enamored of Barkley. People here talk of Schoen/Daboll being saddled with Jones because of Mara, but their actions demonstrate it was Barkley to whom they were saddled.

As I see it, there were only two reasons to opt for going with the $40M/year four year deal over the $32M franchise tag: 1) they feared Carolina would sign him; 2) coming off a 2022 season that exceeded expectations, they were confident 2023 would be a banner year and felt Jones would command $50M/year in 2024.

Teams don't get to the divisional round and change course. If there are examples of it, I'd love to hear them. I think it's simple: Mara/Schoen/Daboll wanted the opportunity to keep building what they achieved in 2022. That's it. And that included Jones AND Barkley. That's what it was and Schoen referenced Jones age multiple times.

Tampa is the closest example and they are doing the same thing. Mayfield is a more advantageous contract but they learned from the Giants mistakes. But, they're still making a significant financial investment in Mayfield.
Didn't the Rams reach the Super Bowl and change course  
nygiantfan : 5/13/2024 4:21 pm : link
by going to Stafford?
RE: I prefer to say that Schoen did the best he could do with Jones's deal  
TyreeHelmet : 5/13/2024 4:23 pm : link
In comment 16513597 BlackLight said:
Quote:
Plenty argue that they should've FT'd him and made him prove it, but that would've likely meant we let Barkley walk away and/or we don't have the money to sign Okereke. It's unclear that we'd be in any better a spot then than we are now.


Its clear as day to me. Unless Jones play to a top 10 level this season, you are not getting good value on that contract. Simply as that.

Not to mention the money spent last year and the likely dead hit in 2025.

They 100% would have been better off now tagging him.
RE: Didn't the Rams reach the Super Bowl and change course  
Sean : 5/13/2024 4:26 pm : link
In comment 16513662 nygiantfan said:
Quote:
by going to Stafford?

When did Goff got paid? I don't recall the exact timing. And that wasn't the next season. I'm talking about the next season.
The Rams paid Goff after the Super Bowl loss  
Sean : 5/13/2024 4:28 pm : link
.
RE: I don't see how you can say that Jones had all the leverage  
TyreeHelmet : 5/13/2024 4:40 pm : link
In comment 16513648 Milton said:
Quote:
The Giants could've tagged him. Sure, it would've meant allowing Barkley to test free agency, but clearly Schoen and Daboll were not enamored of Barkley. People here talk of Schoen/Daboll being saddled with Jones because of Mara, but their actions demonstrate it was Barkley to whom they were saddled.

As I see it, there were only two reasons to opt for going with the $40M/year four year deal over the $32M franchise tag: 1) they feared Carolina would sign him; 2) coming off a 2022 season that exceeded expectations, they were confident 2023 would be a banner year and felt Jones would command $50M/year in 2024.


You truly never know but Carolina traded for the 1st overall pick at about the same time. They weren't in on Jones.

And if they were confident 2023 would be a banner year, they would have been happy to pay him more for 2024 and beyond.

The Giants had all the leverage and it was perfect case for the franchise tag. Schoen blew it.
I can't believe how this board misses the obvious  
Darwinian : 5/13/2024 4:48 pm : link
The move with Jones was to do what the Bucs did with Mayfield. Let him become an unrestricted free agent. There was no great market for Jones, for a limited QB who never showed great production and was coming off of a 15 TD season where he played the whole season. But of course the Giants are not as smart as the Bucs and negotiated against themselves.
RE: I can't believe how this board misses the obvious  
JT039 : 5/13/2024 4:58 pm : link
In comment 16513684 Darwinian said:
Quote:
The move with Jones was to do what the Bucs did with Mayfield. Let him become an unrestricted free agent. There was no great market for Jones, for a limited QB who never showed great production and was coming off of a 15 TD season where he played the whole season. But of course the Giants are not as smart as the Bucs and negotiated against themselves.


“Jinkies!!” If every team was as smart as you.
RE: RE: I can't believe how this board misses the obvious  
Darwinian : 5/13/2024 5:05 pm : link
In comment 16513698 JT039 said:
Quote:
In comment 16513684 Darwinian said:


Quote:


The move with Jones was to do what the Bucs did with Mayfield. Let him become an unrestricted free agent. There was no great market for Jones, for a limited QB who never showed great production and was coming off of a 15 TD season where he played the whole season. But of course the Giants are not as smart as the Bucs and negotiated against themselves.



“Jinkies!!” If every team was as smart as you.


Back to stalking posters on here, I see? What happened? The school yard was empty?
RE: Bw  
bw in dc : 5/13/2024 5:39 pm : link
In comment 16513594 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
Why would you want to use the transition tag?

More leverage with the NEFT with the draft compensation and the financial impact of the two tags is not very big.


I preferred the TT because no team was giving NYG two first rounders to possibly acquire Jones. No team did it with LJax. So, that was a non-starter from the start.

The TT, however, had no such restrictions and would have given us a true idea of what the NFL market thought about Jones. And Schoen still had the final say to match whatever offer Jones may have received. Per ajr and his insights, the feeling around the NFL was Jones was not worth more than $20-$25M AAV.

What is the downside/stupidity of that?
BW  
Thegratefulhead : 5/13/2024 5:41 pm : link
You think it plausible they tag, let him go or sign him for less? Not situationally, Jones was getting signed by NYG after the unexpected season. EVERYONE that mattered wanted him back and he wanted to be back. It was getting done.

They declined his option, made training camp harder on him on purpose and Jones answered the bell. They were in the trenches together, it was too much of risk to ask a young GM/coach team to pivot from Jones. If they shared your views on his ability to play QB in the NFL.

The NY Giants have made no effort to replace to Jones. The best is we have are reports they tried to trade up. Did they really? It doesn’t seem like it.
RE: If you tend to think what the Giants do is generally smart  
SteelGiant : 5/13/2024 6:47 pm : link
In comment 16513428 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
then yes, you probably look at this offseason and it is exciting because you believe all the moves were smart.

If you tend to be more skeptic about the Giants given the past several years, you tend to see opportunities missed and decisions that may or may not work out.

I think this offseason confirmed for everyone what they already believed - the Giants hired the right people or they didn't. I don't think anyone changed their mind based on the offseason activity.

The only proof we will get is when they start playing games that matter.


I think this ranks as one fairest statements on this site. Good Job
Did we improve as much as the other NFCE teams?  
Jint Fan in Buc Land : 5/13/2024 7:15 pm : link
I agree we got better but that's the goal of every team; did we improve more than most?

Nabers is a stud, Nubin should be good, Phillips is an experienced SEC corner who's never made an interception (???), Tyrone Tracy is the next Deebo and Muasa is definitely a game changer (eyes roll back into my skull).

Hey at least we added a vet guard who was decent with his last team named Glowinski... oh wait he didn't work out but Runyan absolutely will.

I'm done with every summer trying to twist myself into thinking the moves I just watched will lead the team to compete when I know they won't.

Washington is pulling ahead, just because you watch doesn't mean you have to believe they will be good just do it out of tradition. There's sufficient evidence at this point to back up that approach but it's america so please do as you like.
RE: RE: RE: Hmmmm...  
Milton : 5/13/2024 7:19 pm : link
In comment 16513565 bw in dc said:
Quote:

You need to look at this through the lens of reasonability.

What was the more reasonable approach? Rewarding a good year or a great year?
It's a lot cheaper to reward a good year than it is a great year. I think they anticipated a successful 2023 with Daniel Jones being a big part of it.
RE: RE: RE: I can't believe how this board misses the obvious  
JT039 : 5/13/2024 7:31 pm : link
In comment 16513709 Darwinian said:
Quote:
In comment 16513698 JT039 said:


Quote:


In comment 16513684 Darwinian said:


Quote:


The move with Jones was to do what the Bucs did with Mayfield. Let him become an unrestricted free agent. There was no great market for Jones, for a limited QB who never showed great production and was coming off of a 15 TD season where he played the whole season. But of course the Giants are not as smart as the Bucs and negotiated against themselves.



“Jinkies!!” If every team was as smart as you.



Back to stalking posters on here, I see? What happened? The school yard was empty?


Is that school yard located in Manhattan?
RE: Brown Hornet  
Brown_Hornet : 5/13/2024 7:51 pm : link
In comment 16513627 Keaton028 said:
Quote:
It might not have been popular in the moment but I always thought making Jones “do it again” was the right answer. The franchise tag would have been expensive but not binding long term.

Im not down on Joe Schoen or Daboll yet, but more just not ready to pronounce the Giants as a better team as OP states. There biggest issues are still their biggest issues. They are not a better team until they prove it. If people want the warm and fuzzies about this team, by all means, but I don’t see a real basis for it.
I get that but the biggest issues, sans for one, have been addressed.
Pass rush, OL, WR, DBs, RB and TE.

I believe that they took good shots at making the team better.

Time will tell, but that goes for every team.
RE: RE: Brown Hornet  
Keaton028 : 5/13/2024 8:07 pm : link
In comment 16513871 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
In comment 16513627 Keaton028 said:


Quote:


It might not have been popular in the moment but I always thought making Jones “do it again” was the right answer. The franchise tag would have been expensive but not binding long term.

Im not down on Joe Schoen or Daboll yet, but more just not ready to pronounce the Giants as a better team as OP states. There biggest issues are still their biggest issues. They are not a better team until they prove it. If people want the warm and fuzzies about this team, by all means, but I don’t see a real basis for it.

I get that but the biggest issues, sans for one, have been addressed.
Pass rush, OL, WR, DBs, RB and TE.

I believe that they took good shots at making the team better.

Time will tell, but that goes for every team.


There is a difference between addressing a weakness and fixing a weakness. They’ve actually addressed Oline a ton over the last decade. But they haven’t fixed it. I have no qualms with the statement they addressed OLine, just that it remains to be seen if it has been fixed. To date it hasn’t been.


DB? They let their one vet walk, and we are relying on a to if inexperience to carry us. Not sure that position can be said to have improved. WR? Very dependent on OLine and QB, both of which are the team’s greatest weaknesses. Same with TE. RB ? I would say Singletary is solid, but he won’t keep defenses up like Barkley did.


As I said, you guys can have all the hope you want. It’s free after all. But it isn’t really based on anything but emotions, something the OP said he wasn’t using in his analysis.
RE: Hahahahahahaha  
OntheRoad : 5/13/2024 8:09 pm : link
In comment 16513393 averagejoe said:
Quote:
thanks for the laughs. Awesome parody post :

Schoen did a great job negotiating the Jones contract..lol...good stuff...


Yes, because otherwise the Giants would have had Tyrod Taylor at QB last year and a rookie QB with no #1 receiver this year.
RE: RE: Hahahahahahaha  
Keaton028 : 5/13/2024 8:15 pm : link
In comment 16513897 OntheRoad said:
Quote:
In comment 16513393 averagejoe said:


Quote:


thanks for the laughs. Awesome parody post :

Schoen did a great job negotiating the Jones contract..lol...good stuff...



Yes, because otherwise the Giants would have had Tyrod Taylor at QB last year and a rookie QB with no #1 receiver this year.



We are placing a ton of faith and expectation on Nabers. While cautioning the regime against picking QB because of high bust rate, we forget WRs bust too. For every Jamarr Chase, there are also Kevin White and Sammy Watkins
There are 30 QBs  
Jerry in_DC : 5/13/2024 8:20 pm : link
that don't make much money who provide the same level of production as Jones. Pick one. Heck, pick 2. Doesn't really matter which.

We'd be in a massively better position if we had just offered him the journeyman contract he deserved. Then moved on to 1 of the other 30 guys if his feelings were hurt
RE: Did we improve as much as the other NFCE teams?  
TyreeHelmet : 5/13/2024 8:54 pm : link
In comment 16513833 Jint Fan in Buc Land said:
Quote:
I agree we got better but that's the goal of every team; did we improve more than most?

Nabers is a stud, Nubin should be good, Phillips is an experienced SEC corner who's never made an interception (???), Tyrone Tracy is the next Deebo and Muasa is definitely a game changer (eyes roll back into my skull).

Hey at least we added a vet guard who was decent with his last team named Glowinski... oh wait he didn't work out but Runyan absolutely will.

I'm done with every summer trying to twist myself into thinking the moves I just watched will lead the team to compete when I know they won't.

Washington is pulling ahead, just because you watch doesn't mean you have to believe they will be good just do it out of tradition. There's sufficient evidence at this point to back up that approach but it's america so please do as you like.


Good post. The last 10 years of the Giants should give all fans pause before making any declaration.
RE: RE: RE: Brown Hornet  
Brown_Hornet : 5/13/2024 9:35 pm : link
In comment 16513896 Keaton028 said:
Quote:
In comment 16513871 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:


In comment 16513627 Keaton028 said:


Quote:


It might not have been popular in the moment but I always thought making Jones “do it again” was the right answer. The franchise tag would have been expensive but not binding long term.

Im not down on Joe Schoen or Daboll yet, but more just not ready to pronounce the Giants as a better team as OP states. There biggest issues are still their biggest issues. They are not a better team until they prove it. If people want the warm and fuzzies about this team, by all means, but I don’t see a real basis for it.

I get that but the biggest issues, sans for one, have been addressed.
Pass rush, OL, WR, DBs, RB and TE.

I believe that they took good shots at making the team better.

Time will tell, but that goes for every team.



There is a difference between addressing a weakness and fixing a weakness. They’ve actually addressed Oline a ton over the last decade. But they haven’t fixed it. I have no qualms with the statement they addressed OLine, just that it remains to be seen if it has been fixed. To date it hasn’t been.


DB? They let their one vet walk, and we are relying on a to if inexperience to carry us. Not sure that position can be said to have improved. WR? Very dependent on OLine and QB, both of which are the team’s greatest weaknesses. Same with TE. RB ? I would say Singletary is solid, but he won’t keep defenses up like Barkley did.


As I said, you guys can have all the hope you want. It’s free after all. But it isn’t really based on anything but emotions, something the OP said he wasn’t using in his analysis.
Addressed is all any team gets until the games are played.
Brown Hornet  
Keaton028 : 5/13/2024 9:46 pm : link
I think you are misinterpreting what I am trying to say. Yes, all teams can only say they have addressed their weaknesses. But most teams have been consistently better than the Giants since 2012. Fans of contending teams have a basis for hope in the upcoming season. Giants fans really don’t based on recent history.

The OP was about promoting the idea that the Giants have improved without a doubt this offseason, bias and emotions aside. My arguments in this thread are simply combating that notion. We are placing a ton of hope and faith in inexperienced and unproven players. This could easily backfire. Our offense has little depth, and recent history shows that the Giants have not been good at fixing weaknesses.

It is fine to have hope and excitement if you’d like. But to say we are an improved team as if it is a fact is really not based in reality.
I see that...  
Brown_Hornet : 5/13/2024 10:00 pm : link
...but, the alternative is to have a guarantee.
We don't get that.

Hope is all you get be the additions rooks, journeymen or coveted FAs.

It appears that the Giants have put a good foot forward heading into 2024.

I get the concerns. I believe that most here also have them.

Energy is finite. Process with care.
The dust has settled and permanently clogged your brain. You are so  
ThomasG : 5/13/2024 10:20 pm : link
used to losing due to suspect QB play that you can’t bear to see what happens if you given a different credible alternative at the position.

Why is it so important to win with Daniel Jones? Why can’t we try to possibly change and attempt to do better?

Hubris and/or arrogance trying to mask cowardice. Unsuccessfully.
"Schoen did a great job negotiating the Jones contract."  
Darwinian : 5/13/2024 11:10 pm : link
Reading that sentence again, it's really hard to believe anybody would have the temerity to write such a sentence.

It's especially ironic because the OP says, "If you remove emotion and attachments to your predictions or desires and look at it with unbiased eyes"

As if the actions of the Giants, among the most incompetant organizations in sports, justifies retaining Jones. I can't think of a single analyst or observer outside the organization who thinks the Jones years have been anything other than a colassal waste. The Jones cult don't want to *force* a QB pick, but they're ok with squandering multiple seasons forcing Jones on this team, in an increasingly unlikely probability that he will emerge as a championship talent.
RE: The dust has settled and permanently clogged your brain. You are so  
Brown_Hornet : 5/14/2024 6:36 am : link
In comment 16514052 ThomasG said:
Quote:
used to losing due to suspect QB play that you can’t bear to see what happens if you given a different credible alternative at the position.

Why is it so important to win with Daniel Jones? Why can’t we try to possibly change and attempt to do better?

Hubris and/or arrogance trying to mask cowardice. Unsuccessfully.
Why do some of y'all say things like that?
You come off like an adolescent and this particular post comes off as projection.

You don't have to click the thread and you don't have to comment.
That goes for those who hate football as much as those who love it.

...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 5/14/2024 6:45 am : link
I think the defense has the potential to be solid, though I expect growing pains with a new DC.

Not confident @ all about the offense. The OL has to be better right? It can't be much worse. & while AT is a stud, he's not exactly an ironman.
RE: RE: I don't see how you can say that Jones had all the leverage  
Johnny5 : 5/14/2024 9:31 am : link
In comment 16513678 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
In comment 16513648 Milton said:


Quote:


The Giants could've tagged him. Sure, it would've meant allowing Barkley to test free agency, but clearly Schoen and Daboll were not enamored of Barkley. People here talk of Schoen/Daboll being saddled with Jones because of Mara, but their actions demonstrate it was Barkley to whom they were saddled.

As I see it, there were only two reasons to opt for going with the $40M/year four year deal over the $32M franchise tag: 1) they feared Carolina would sign him; 2) coming off a 2022 season that exceeded expectations, they were confident 2023 would be a banner year and felt Jones would command $50M/year in 2024.



You truly never know but Carolina traded for the 1st overall pick at about the same time. They weren't in on Jones.

And if they were confident 2023 would be a banner year, they would have been happy to pay him more for 2024 and beyond.

The Giants had all the leverage and it was perfect case for the franchise tag. Schoen blew it.

Such conviction. I feel so incredibly lucky to be a part of a fan site that has so many intelligent posters that know more about football operations than Joe Schoen.

Dammit. If only Mara would pick from this BBI brain pool to run the Giants. Sigh.
It's easy to say in hindsight what a mistake the deal was...  
Dnew15 : 5/14/2024 10:08 am : link
at the time, I thought it was the right thing to do.

The best part of the contract is the fact that Schoen was sure to put next year's out in there.

If you look at other QBs around the league getting paid, that out doesn't exist.

In hindsight, I wish they hadn't given Jones the deal they did - but it would be dishonest for me to say that at the time, I felt like it was the right thing to do.
RE: It's easy to say in hindsight what a mistake the deal was...  
Thegratefulhead : 5/14/2024 10:51 am : link
In comment 16514298 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
at the time, I thought it was the right thing to do.

The best part of the contract is the fact that Schoen was sure to put next year's out in there.

If you look at other QBs around the league getting paid, that out doesn't exist.

In hindsight, I wish they hadn't given Jones the deal they did - but it would be dishonest for me to say that at the time, I felt like it was the right thing to do.
Same, I just felt at that moment in time they really had no choice. The had not won in forever and we just had success, coach of the year, ect. Expecting them to pivot in that spot is unrealistic. If Schoen knew he would sustain another neck injury and blow his ACL. OC in hindsight I do not sign him, I wanted McCarthy at 6.
RE:  
Thegratefulhead : 5/14/2024 11:01 am : link
In comment 16514088 Darwinian said:
Quote:
Reading that sentence again, it's really hard to believe anybody would have the temerity to write such a sentence.

It's especially ironic because the OP says, "If you remove emotion and attachments to your predictions or desires and look at it with unbiased eyes"

As if the actions of the Giants, among the most incompetant organizations in sports, justifies retaining Jones. I can't think of a single analyst or observer outside the organization who thinks the Jones years have been anything other than a colassal waste. The Jones cult don't want to *force* a QB pick, but they're ok with squandering multiple seasons forcing Jones on this team, in an increasingly unlikely probability that he will emerge as a championship talent.
Stop pretending like your opinion matters. Start from a place of humility. You don’t know shit about this, I don’t either.

Other than their decision on Jones, do you like this management team?

If you like everything else about them but feel they must be replaced because they do feel the way you about Daniel Jones and they are the ones going to war with him, you might consider that you are behaving like a toddler.

I have nothing else to describe this, you all keep screaming how stupid we are while making fools of yourselves.

Everyone but the people that want Daniel Jones replaced at all costs are either laughing at you or looking at you with contempt.

Before you try to spin this I don’t need to win with Daniel, I wanted McCarthy at 6. We ALL would have been fine with a 1st round QB.

Only one group of toddlers here.
Folks here remain remarkably consistent  
Reese's Pieces : 5/14/2024 11:07 am : link
in blaming the problems of the offense on Jones and not giving the historically inept offensive line its due credit. This line allowed 30 sacks in Jones’ 6 games, and 55 in the remaining 11 games, they allowed just as often in the games Jones did not play in.

Barkley’s play also declined last season, which I think again you can attribute to that line. In 16% fewer carrys versus 2022 his yards per carry declined from 4.4 to 3.9 and his 4 longest were all 34 or 36 yards.

Whoever the lucky guy is who starts out at QB is still going to have poor protection and a non-threatening running game. PFF still ranks the line worst in the league. Even with improved personnel they will still have to get experience playing as a unit when they play the first games that count

I don’t agree with spending the first on a while receiver, instead of an offensive or defensive lineman, but I understand how highly this wide out was ranked. Using the 47th pick on a safety I just don’t get. They let a very good safety walk and used 47 on a safety when you already show it to be a low-priority position.
Only know 2 things about DJ  
Thegratefulhead : 5/14/2024 11:09 am : link
He definitely is not great.

He definitely does not suck.

I think he can produce in this offense if you give him weapons(explosive makers). An offense designed for short passes and explosive plays is going to look poor without the players to execute it. GOTTA HAVE THEM.

However, I am risk averse and without DIRECT knowledge of his medicals, I am conservative and would have drafted his replacement. I can’t die on that hill without knowing.

I want to see a team try to defend the field against these players in space.
The QB vs the OL  
Dnew15 : 5/14/2024 11:11 am : link
has become a chicken or the egg argument in my mind.

It's hard to distinguish which is the bigger problem.

RE: Only know 2 things about DJ  
Darwinian : 5/14/2024 11:22 am : link
In comment 16514372 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
He definitely is not great.

He definitely does not suck.

I think he can produce in this offense if you give him weapons(explosive makers). An offense designed for short passes and explosive plays is going to look poor without the players to execute it. GOTTA HAVE THEM.

However, I am risk averse and without DIRECT knowledge of his medicals, I am conservative and would have drafted his replacement. I can’t die on that hill without knowing.

I want to see a team try to defend the field against these players in space.


His numbers say that he is definitely not great. As for sucking, it depends how you define it. Last season he was the worst starting QB in the league. Compared to other *good* quarterbacks, I would say, he sucks. Compared to 350 million other Americans, he doesn't suck.
RE: The QB vs the OL  
Brown_Hornet : 5/14/2024 12:08 pm : link
In comment 16514375 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
has become a chicken or the egg argument in my mind.

It's hard to distinguish which is the bigger problem.
Their ineptitude is not mutually exclusive.
RE: RE: Only know 2 things about DJ  
Thegratefulhead : 5/14/2024 2:00 pm : link
In comment 16514397 Darwinian said:
Quote:
In comment 16514372 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


He definitely is not great.

He definitely does not suck.

I think he can produce in this offense if you give him weapons(explosive makers). An offense designed for short passes and explosive plays is going to look poor without the players to execute it. GOTTA HAVE THEM.

However, I am risk averse and without DIRECT knowledge of his medicals, I am conservative and would have drafted his replacement. I can’t die on that hill without knowing.

I want to see a team try to defend the field against these players in space.



His numbers say that he is definitely not great. As for sucking, it depends how you define it. Last season he was the worst starting QB in the league. Compared to other *good* quarterbacks, I would say, he sucks. Compared to 350 million other Americans, he doesn't suck.
How human being have lead a crappy team to a winning record and a playoff win. Hint the number is a tiny tiny fraction of those who have ever taken a snap. What was his QBR in 2022? Definitely does not suck.

Why didn't they draft or sign a replacement if Jones sucks?

I will wait
RE: RE: The QB vs the OL  
Dnew15 : 5/15/2024 12:19 pm : link
In comment 16514468 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
In comment 16514375 Dnew15 said:


Quote:


has become a chicken or the egg argument in my mind.

It's hard to distinguish which is the bigger problem.


Their ineptitude is not mutually exclusive.


Totally agreed.
RE: Only know 2 things about DJ  
TyreeHelmet : 5/15/2024 12:42 pm : link
In comment 16514372 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
He definitely is not great.

He definitely does not suck.

I think he can produce in this offense if you give him weapons(explosive makers). An offense designed for short passes and explosive plays is going to look poor without the players to execute it. GOTTA HAVE THEM.

However, I am risk averse and without DIRECT knowledge of his medicals, I am conservative and would have drafted his replacement. I can’t die on that hill without knowing.

I want to see a team try to defend the field against these players in space.


How does he definitely not suck?

The overwhelming evidence shows he is a below average QB...and thats not even accounting for his contract.
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