If you remove emotion and attachments to your predictions or desires and look at it with unbiased eyes, it is hard to conclude we have not gotten better. I am also encouraged by the actions of the GM and head coach, enough so, that I feel that we have the right people in place.
Schoen did a great job negotiating the Jones contract.
Line in the sand for many and it shows how far apart we can be in thinking. To me, Jones had the leverage in negotiations, he had just won a playoff game away and had led an untalented team to the playoffs. Also, financially we could have drafted a QB in rd 1, the contract was not an obstacle in 2024 and definitely not long term. Proof to me, that it was a good contract for the team in the scenario they were in. If Schoen had let Jones go and 2023 happened I think he is fired at season’s end.
It doesn’t matter who was at QB in 2023, in my opinion the season would have played out the same way. Look awful early and better when the OL got healthy and started to gel. I looked deeply at the all-22 of the first 5 games. Neal wasn’t even injured at all and it was like his off season training messed him up, he looked confused.
The way this team handled the draft.
Admit they had us running in circles.
Clueless, all of us, including the media.
Well executed.
Burns, wow.
The way Daboll has handled the situations with his staff leads me to believe we have an actual alpha at the helm. Season was going to shit, took over play calling, made zero issue of it but wanted all the responsibility. Wink was undermining his authority and Daboll went gansta.
Shurmur and Judge were pretending. Judge was a wacka doo, in technical terms. What happened under Judge doesn’t count in my mind, they ran a 90s offense.
I wanted McCarthy at 6 but I understand I don’t have the critical information to truly question these decisions. I wasn’t in the interviews and I don’t know the state of Jones recovery or the intimate details of his injuries. The player they drafted instead could wear a gold jacket some day.
How can I act like a dick without knowing?
I loved the offseason and draft.
I think we have the right leadership team in place and they appear to be on the same page.
I don’t believe the QB sucks, not close to elite either, but I believe his talents play in this offense if we protect him reasonably.
It is easy to look forward to this season for me.
Training camp is just around the corner, more will become clear.
Somehow this wildcard victory provided tremendous leverage to Team Jones, a QB that had a winning percentage of about 35% over his first 60 starts while throwing for only 62 TDs and 42 Ints.
And even despite this leverage, Schoen is described by this OP doing a great job negotiating this contract only giving Jones a $160M deal with only a mere $90M in guarantees and a decent injury guarantee.
Thank goodness Schoen kept his head about him while putting this one on the books.
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BW i know what the hind sight looked like. IDGAF. I the were year 1 GM coach that were the toast of town. There was no way Jones was not getting signed. It was the easiest thing in the world to predict. I wont go down this road with you. Live in your world with your narrative. I respect your opinion, I LOOK for your posts. I am confident I have a good grasp of your opinion on this. I totally disagree.
You need to look at this through the lens of reasonability.
What was the more reasonable approach? Rewarding a good year or a great year?
If Jones had a great year in 2022, there is a much stronger case for the multi-year contract.
But his 2022 was good. And what brought his performance up to good was the running performance, not the passing.
So, there was much more to prove, especially on the passing side with Jones. Thus, applying either tag was much more reasonable that the 4yr contract. And this isn't hindsight. It was discussed in depth on the board from the end of the season through Jones re-signing in March of 2023.
More leverage with the NEFT with the draft compensation and the financial impact of the two tags is not very big.
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Schoen did a great job negotiating the Jones contract.
(Quick disclaimer: I absolutely believe Schoen drove the Jones contract, not Mara)
Now, a sentence like this takes an incredible imagination - consider that a euphemism - to call that outcome great.
Right now, Jones is paid at the 10th best player in the NFL heading into the 2024 season. Just think about that. There is absolutely nothing great about that.
Rewarding a player for 15 passing TDs and playing well in a playoff game against a putrid Minnesota D, was much better handled with another one-year, prove it deal. Which, btw, would have avoided the injury clause issue, too...
I think the "Great Job" is seen in term of the contract not the $$, He was going to get paid and we had to pay up for the optionality of getting out if it didn't play out well. I'd much rather have the 2-3 year out than than a 5-7yr albatross.
Im not down on Joe Schoen or Daboll yet, but more just not ready to pronounce the Giants as a better team as OP states. There biggest issues are still their biggest issues. They are not a better team until they prove it. If people want the warm and fuzzies about this team, by all means, but I don’t see a real basis for it.
As I see it, there were only two reasons to opt for going with the $40M/year four year deal over the $32M franchise tag: 1) they feared Carolina would sign him; 2) coming off a 2022 season that exceeded expectations, they were confident 2023 would be a banner year and felt Jones would command $50M/year in 2024.
As I see it, there were only two reasons to opt for going with the $40M/year four year deal over the $32M franchise tag: 1) they feared Carolina would sign him; 2) coming off a 2022 season that exceeded expectations, they were confident 2023 would be a banner year and felt Jones would command $50M/year in 2024.
Teams don't get to the divisional round and change course. If there are examples of it, I'd love to hear them. I think it's simple: Mara/Schoen/Daboll wanted the opportunity to keep building what they achieved in 2022. That's it. And that included Jones AND Barkley. That's what it was and Schoen referenced Jones age multiple times.
Tampa is the closest example and they are doing the same thing. Mayfield is a more advantageous contract but they learned from the Giants mistakes. But, they're still making a significant financial investment in Mayfield.
Its clear as day to me. Unless Jones play to a top 10 level this season, you are not getting good value on that contract. Simply as that.
Not to mention the money spent last year and the likely dead hit in 2025.
They 100% would have been better off now tagging him.
When did Goff got paid? I don't recall the exact timing. And that wasn't the next season. I'm talking about the next season.
As I see it, there were only two reasons to opt for going with the $40M/year four year deal over the $32M franchise tag: 1) they feared Carolina would sign him; 2) coming off a 2022 season that exceeded expectations, they were confident 2023 would be a banner year and felt Jones would command $50M/year in 2024.
You truly never know but Carolina traded for the 1st overall pick at about the same time. They weren't in on Jones.
And if they were confident 2023 would be a banner year, they would have been happy to pay him more for 2024 and beyond.
The Giants had all the leverage and it was perfect case for the franchise tag. Schoen blew it.
“Jinkies!!” If every team was as smart as you.
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The move with Jones was to do what the Bucs did with Mayfield. Let him become an unrestricted free agent. There was no great market for Jones, for a limited QB who never showed great production and was coming off of a 15 TD season where he played the whole season. But of course the Giants are not as smart as the Bucs and negotiated against themselves.
“Jinkies!!” If every team was as smart as you.
Back to stalking posters on here, I see? What happened? The school yard was empty?
More leverage with the NEFT with the draft compensation and the financial impact of the two tags is not very big.
I preferred the TT because no team was giving NYG two first rounders to possibly acquire Jones. No team did it with LJax. So, that was a non-starter from the start.
The TT, however, had no such restrictions and would have given us a true idea of what the NFL market thought about Jones. And Schoen still had the final say to match whatever offer Jones may have received. Per ajr and his insights, the feeling around the NFL was Jones was not worth more than $20-$25M AAV.
What is the downside/stupidity of that?
They declined his option, made training camp harder on him on purpose and Jones answered the bell. They were in the trenches together, it was too much of risk to ask a young GM/coach team to pivot from Jones. If they shared your views on his ability to play QB in the NFL.
The NY Giants have made no effort to replace to Jones. The best is we have are reports they tried to trade up. Did they really? It doesn’t seem like it.
If you tend to be more skeptic about the Giants given the past several years, you tend to see opportunities missed and decisions that may or may not work out.
I think this offseason confirmed for everyone what they already believed - the Giants hired the right people or they didn't. I don't think anyone changed their mind based on the offseason activity.
The only proof we will get is when they start playing games that matter.
I think this ranks as one fairest statements on this site. Good Job
Nabers is a stud, Nubin should be good, Phillips is an experienced SEC corner who's never made an interception (???), Tyrone Tracy is the next Deebo and Muasa is definitely a game changer (eyes roll back into my skull).
Hey at least we added a vet guard who was decent with his last team named Glowinski... oh wait he didn't work out but Runyan absolutely will.
I'm done with every summer trying to twist myself into thinking the moves I just watched will lead the team to compete when I know they won't.
Washington is pulling ahead, just because you watch doesn't mean you have to believe they will be good just do it out of tradition. There's sufficient evidence at this point to back up that approach but it's america so please do as you like.
You need to look at this through the lens of reasonability.
What was the more reasonable approach? Rewarding a good year or a great year?
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In comment 16513684 Darwinian said:
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The move with Jones was to do what the Bucs did with Mayfield. Let him become an unrestricted free agent. There was no great market for Jones, for a limited QB who never showed great production and was coming off of a 15 TD season where he played the whole season. But of course the Giants are not as smart as the Bucs and negotiated against themselves.
“Jinkies!!” If every team was as smart as you.
Back to stalking posters on here, I see? What happened? The school yard was empty?
Is that school yard located in Manhattan?
Im not down on Joe Schoen or Daboll yet, but more just not ready to pronounce the Giants as a better team as OP states. There biggest issues are still their biggest issues. They are not a better team until they prove it. If people want the warm and fuzzies about this team, by all means, but I don’t see a real basis for it.
Pass rush, OL, WR, DBs, RB and TE.
I believe that they took good shots at making the team better.
Time will tell, but that goes for every team.
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It might not have been popular in the moment but I always thought making Jones “do it again” was the right answer. The franchise tag would have been expensive but not binding long term.
Im not down on Joe Schoen or Daboll yet, but more just not ready to pronounce the Giants as a better team as OP states. There biggest issues are still their biggest issues. They are not a better team until they prove it. If people want the warm and fuzzies about this team, by all means, but I don’t see a real basis for it.
I get that but the biggest issues, sans for one, have been addressed.
Pass rush, OL, WR, DBs, RB and TE.
I believe that they took good shots at making the team better.
Time will tell, but that goes for every team.
There is a difference between addressing a weakness and fixing a weakness. They’ve actually addressed Oline a ton over the last decade. But they haven’t fixed it. I have no qualms with the statement they addressed OLine, just that it remains to be seen if it has been fixed. To date it hasn’t been.
DB? They let their one vet walk, and we are relying on a to if inexperience to carry us. Not sure that position can be said to have improved. WR? Very dependent on OLine and QB, both of which are the team’s greatest weaknesses. Same with TE. RB ? I would say Singletary is solid, but he won’t keep defenses up like Barkley did.
As I said, you guys can have all the hope you want. It’s free after all. But it isn’t really based on anything but emotions, something the OP said he wasn’t using in his analysis.
Schoen did a great job negotiating the Jones contract..lol...good stuff...
Yes, because otherwise the Giants would have had Tyrod Taylor at QB last year and a rookie QB with no #1 receiver this year.
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thanks for the laughs. Awesome parody post :
Schoen did a great job negotiating the Jones contract..lol...good stuff...
Yes, because otherwise the Giants would have had Tyrod Taylor at QB last year and a rookie QB with no #1 receiver this year.
We are placing a ton of faith and expectation on Nabers. While cautioning the regime against picking QB because of high bust rate, we forget WRs bust too. For every Jamarr Chase, there are also Kevin White and Sammy Watkins
We'd be in a massively better position if we had just offered him the journeyman contract he deserved. Then moved on to 1 of the other 30 guys if his feelings were hurt
Nabers is a stud, Nubin should be good, Phillips is an experienced SEC corner who's never made an interception (???), Tyrone Tracy is the next Deebo and Muasa is definitely a game changer (eyes roll back into my skull).
Hey at least we added a vet guard who was decent with his last team named Glowinski... oh wait he didn't work out but Runyan absolutely will.
I'm done with every summer trying to twist myself into thinking the moves I just watched will lead the team to compete when I know they won't.
Washington is pulling ahead, just because you watch doesn't mean you have to believe they will be good just do it out of tradition. There's sufficient evidence at this point to back up that approach but it's america so please do as you like.
Good post. The last 10 years of the Giants should give all fans pause before making any declaration.
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In comment 16513627 Keaton028 said:
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It might not have been popular in the moment but I always thought making Jones “do it again” was the right answer. The franchise tag would have been expensive but not binding long term.
Im not down on Joe Schoen or Daboll yet, but more just not ready to pronounce the Giants as a better team as OP states. There biggest issues are still their biggest issues. They are not a better team until they prove it. If people want the warm and fuzzies about this team, by all means, but I don’t see a real basis for it.
I get that but the biggest issues, sans for one, have been addressed.
Pass rush, OL, WR, DBs, RB and TE.
I believe that they took good shots at making the team better.
Time will tell, but that goes for every team.
There is a difference between addressing a weakness and fixing a weakness. They’ve actually addressed Oline a ton over the last decade. But they haven’t fixed it. I have no qualms with the statement they addressed OLine, just that it remains to be seen if it has been fixed. To date it hasn’t been.
DB? They let their one vet walk, and we are relying on a to if inexperience to carry us. Not sure that position can be said to have improved. WR? Very dependent on OLine and QB, both of which are the team’s greatest weaknesses. Same with TE. RB ? I would say Singletary is solid, but he won’t keep defenses up like Barkley did.
As I said, you guys can have all the hope you want. It’s free after all. But it isn’t really based on anything but emotions, something the OP said he wasn’t using in his analysis.
The OP was about promoting the idea that the Giants have improved without a doubt this offseason, bias and emotions aside. My arguments in this thread are simply combating that notion. We are placing a ton of hope and faith in inexperienced and unproven players. This could easily backfire. Our offense has little depth, and recent history shows that the Giants have not been good at fixing weaknesses.
It is fine to have hope and excitement if you’d like. But to say we are an improved team as if it is a fact is really not based in reality.
We don't get that.
Hope is all you get be the additions rooks, journeymen or coveted FAs.
It appears that the Giants have put a good foot forward heading into 2024.
I get the concerns. I believe that most here also have them.
Energy is finite. Process with care.
Why is it so important to win with Daniel Jones? Why can’t we try to possibly change and attempt to do better?
Hubris and/or arrogance trying to mask cowardice. Unsuccessfully.
It's especially ironic because the OP says, "If you remove emotion and attachments to your predictions or desires and look at it with unbiased eyes"
As if the actions of the Giants, among the most incompetant organizations in sports, justifies retaining Jones. I can't think of a single analyst or observer outside the organization who thinks the Jones years have been anything other than a colassal waste. The Jones cult don't want to *force* a QB pick, but they're ok with squandering multiple seasons forcing Jones on this team, in an increasingly unlikely probability that he will emerge as a championship talent.
Why is it so important to win with Daniel Jones? Why can’t we try to possibly change and attempt to do better?
Hubris and/or arrogance trying to mask cowardice. Unsuccessfully.
You come off like an adolescent and this particular post comes off as projection.
You don't have to click the thread and you don't have to comment.
That goes for those who hate football as much as those who love it.
Not confident @ all about the offense. The OL has to be better right? It can't be much worse. & while AT is a stud, he's not exactly an ironman.
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The Giants could've tagged him. Sure, it would've meant allowing Barkley to test free agency, but clearly Schoen and Daboll were not enamored of Barkley. People here talk of Schoen/Daboll being saddled with Jones because of Mara, but their actions demonstrate it was Barkley to whom they were saddled.
As I see it, there were only two reasons to opt for going with the $40M/year four year deal over the $32M franchise tag: 1) they feared Carolina would sign him; 2) coming off a 2022 season that exceeded expectations, they were confident 2023 would be a banner year and felt Jones would command $50M/year in 2024.
You truly never know but Carolina traded for the 1st overall pick at about the same time. They weren't in on Jones.
And if they were confident 2023 would be a banner year, they would have been happy to pay him more for 2024 and beyond.
The Giants had all the leverage and it was perfect case for the franchise tag. Schoen blew it.
Such conviction. I feel so incredibly lucky to be a part of a fan site that has so many intelligent posters that know more about football operations than Joe Schoen.
Dammit. If only Mara would pick from this BBI brain pool to run the Giants. Sigh.
The best part of the contract is the fact that Schoen was sure to put next year's out in there.
If you look at other QBs around the league getting paid, that out doesn't exist.
In hindsight, I wish they hadn't given Jones the deal they did - but it would be dishonest for me to say that at the time, I felt like it was the right thing to do.
The best part of the contract is the fact that Schoen was sure to put next year's out in there.
If you look at other QBs around the league getting paid, that out doesn't exist.
In hindsight, I wish they hadn't given Jones the deal they did - but it would be dishonest for me to say that at the time, I felt like it was the right thing to do.
It's especially ironic because the OP says, "If you remove emotion and attachments to your predictions or desires and look at it with unbiased eyes"
As if the actions of the Giants, among the most incompetant organizations in sports, justifies retaining Jones. I can't think of a single analyst or observer outside the organization who thinks the Jones years have been anything other than a colassal waste. The Jones cult don't want to *force* a QB pick, but they're ok with squandering multiple seasons forcing Jones on this team, in an increasingly unlikely probability that he will emerge as a championship talent.
Other than their decision on Jones, do you like this management team?
If you like everything else about them but feel they must be replaced because they do feel the way you about Daniel Jones and they are the ones going to war with him, you might consider that you are behaving like a toddler.
I have nothing else to describe this, you all keep screaming how stupid we are while making fools of yourselves.
Everyone but the people that want Daniel Jones replaced at all costs are either laughing at you or looking at you with contempt.
Before you try to spin this I don’t need to win with Daniel, I wanted McCarthy at 6. We ALL would have been fine with a 1st round QB.
Only one group of toddlers here.
Barkley’s play also declined last season, which I think again you can attribute to that line. In 16% fewer carrys versus 2022 his yards per carry declined from 4.4 to 3.9 and his 4 longest were all 34 or 36 yards.
Whoever the lucky guy is who starts out at QB is still going to have poor protection and a non-threatening running game. PFF still ranks the line worst in the league. Even with improved personnel they will still have to get experience playing as a unit when they play the first games that count
I don’t agree with spending the first on a while receiver, instead of an offensive or defensive lineman, but I understand how highly this wide out was ranked. Using the 47th pick on a safety I just don’t get. They let a very good safety walk and used 47 on a safety when you already show it to be a low-priority position.
He definitely does not suck.
I think he can produce in this offense if you give him weapons(explosive makers). An offense designed for short passes and explosive plays is going to look poor without the players to execute it. GOTTA HAVE THEM.
However, I am risk averse and without DIRECT knowledge of his medicals, I am conservative and would have drafted his replacement. I can’t die on that hill without knowing.
I want to see a team try to defend the field against these players in space.
It's hard to distinguish which is the bigger problem.
He definitely does not suck.
I think he can produce in this offense if you give him weapons(explosive makers). An offense designed for short passes and explosive plays is going to look poor without the players to execute it. GOTTA HAVE THEM.
However, I am risk averse and without DIRECT knowledge of his medicals, I am conservative and would have drafted his replacement. I can’t die on that hill without knowing.
I want to see a team try to defend the field against these players in space.
His numbers say that he is definitely not great. As for sucking, it depends how you define it. Last season he was the worst starting QB in the league. Compared to other *good* quarterbacks, I would say, he sucks. Compared to 350 million other Americans, he doesn't suck.
It's hard to distinguish which is the bigger problem.
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He definitely is not great.
He definitely does not suck.
I think he can produce in this offense if you give him weapons(explosive makers). An offense designed for short passes and explosive plays is going to look poor without the players to execute it. GOTTA HAVE THEM.
However, I am risk averse and without DIRECT knowledge of his medicals, I am conservative and would have drafted his replacement. I can’t die on that hill without knowing.
I want to see a team try to defend the field against these players in space.
His numbers say that he is definitely not great. As for sucking, it depends how you define it. Last season he was the worst starting QB in the league. Compared to other *good* quarterbacks, I would say, he sucks. Compared to 350 million other Americans, he doesn't suck.
Why didn't they draft or sign a replacement if Jones sucks?
I will wait
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has become a chicken or the egg argument in my mind.
It's hard to distinguish which is the bigger problem.
Their ineptitude is not mutually exclusive.
Totally agreed.
He definitely does not suck.
I think he can produce in this offense if you give him weapons(explosive makers). An offense designed for short passes and explosive plays is going to look poor without the players to execute it. GOTTA HAVE THEM.
However, I am risk averse and without DIRECT knowledge of his medicals, I am conservative and would have drafted his replacement. I can’t die on that hill without knowing.
I want to see a team try to defend the field against these players in space.
How does he definitely not suck?
The overwhelming evidence shows he is a below average QB...and thats not even accounting for his contract.