If you remove emotion and attachments to your predictions or desires and look at it with unbiased eyes, it is hard to conclude we have not gotten better. I am also encouraged by the actions of the GM and head coach, enough so, that I feel that we have the right people in place.
Schoen did a great job negotiating the Jones contract.
Line in the sand for many and it shows how far apart we can be in thinking. To me, Jones had the leverage in negotiations, he had just won a playoff game away and had led an untalented team to the playoffs. Also, financially we could have drafted a QB in rd 1, the contract was not an obstacle in 2024 and definitely not long term. Proof to me, that it was a good contract for the team in the scenario they were in. If Schoen had let Jones go and 2023 happened I think he is fired at season’s end.
It doesn’t matter who was at QB in 2023, in my opinion the season would have played out the same way. Look awful early and better when the OL got healthy and started to gel. I looked deeply at the all-22 of the first 5 games. Neal wasn’t even injured at all and it was like his off season training messed him up, he looked confused.
The way this team handled the draft.
Admit they had us running in circles.
Clueless, all of us, including the media.
Well executed.
Burns, wow.
The way Daboll has handled the situations with his staff leads me to believe we have an actual alpha at the helm. Season was going to shit, took over play calling, made zero issue of it but wanted all the responsibility. Wink was undermining his authority and Daboll went gansta.
Shurmur and Judge were pretending. Judge was a wacka doo, in technical terms. What happened under Judge doesn’t count in my mind, they ran a 90s offense.
I wanted McCarthy at 6 but I understand I don’t have the critical information to truly question these decisions. I wasn’t in the interviews and I don’t know the state of Jones recovery or the intimate details of his injuries. The player they drafted instead could wear a gold jacket some day.
How can I act like a dick without knowing?
I loved the offseason and draft.
I think we have the right leadership team in place and they appear to be on the same page.
I don’t believe the QB sucks, not close to elite either, but I believe his talents play in this offense if we protect him reasonably.
It is easy to look forward to this season for me.
Training camp is just around the corner, more will become clear.
Schoen did a great job negotiating the Jones contract..lol...good stuff...
Keys to me are:
Signed 5 veteran OL to add to the mix. Smart move since college ball is not developing OL ready to play.
Trading for Burns as opposed to0 signing McKinney. I loved McKinney but over paying for a safety is not a wise allocation of resources. Paying elite pass rushers is wise.
Drafting a stud WR1 and not overpaying Barkley while signing a cheaper vet in Singletary and adding a young rooking was the way to also allocate resources based on positional value.
Fortifying the secondary with day 2 picks is also smart.
Adding Lock and letting Taylor go was also a good move IMO.
How good will we be? Not sure but I like the make up of our roster.
I can see us sucking and going QB and DT early next year. I can see us middle of the pack as well.
If you tend to be more skeptic about the Giants given the past several years, you tend to see opportunities missed and decisions that may or may not work out.
I think this offseason confirmed for everyone what they already believed - the Giants hired the right people or they didn't. I don't think anyone changed their mind based on the offseason activity.
The only proof we will get is when they start playing games that matter.
(Quick disclaimer: I absolutely believe Schoen drove the Jones contract, not Mara)
Now, a sentence like this takes an incredible imagination - consider that a euphemism - to call that outcome great.
Right now, Jones is paid at the 10th best player in the NFL heading into the 2024 season. Just think about that. There is absolutely nothing great about that.
Rewarding a player for 15 passing TDs and playing well in a playoff game against a putrid Minnesota D, was much better handled with another one-year, prove it deal. Which, btw, would have avoided the injury clause issue, too...
^^^
If you criticized the team or the sitting GM right after a draft at any point in the last 10+ years (Reese, Gettleman), you would have been painted as an insufferable negative Nancy at best. And yet you would have been correct most years.
I think we're all sick of hearing "it's different this time" in the offseason.
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Schoen did a great job negotiating the Jones contract.
(Quick disclaimer: I absolutely believe Schoen drove the Jones contract, not Mara)
Now, a sentence like this takes an incredible imagination - consider that a euphemism - to call that outcome great.
Right now, Jones is paid at the 10th best player in the NFL heading into the 2024 season. Just think about that. There is absolutely nothing great about that.
Rewarding a player for 15 passing TDs and playing well in a playoff game against a putrid Minnesota D, was much better handled with another one-year, prove it deal. Which, btw, would have avoided the injury clause issue, too...
Better until it doesn't show on the field. This season is all about the future and showing actual progression and not another season of regression because the QB situation is what it is and the overall team needs to build up until that is figured out.
Unless there continue to be a bunch of injuries to key personnel I think we should see marked improvement over last year's debacle.
He DID give himself a workable out after 2 years, which makes this contract manageable (when compared to others like Watson's in Cleveland for example).
We all have EXCUSES for the data that does not support our narratives.
I feel this Giants team has little to do with the teams of the last 10 years. I judge Schoen/Daboll separately. The DG hire was still Mara designed and those and the Shurmur years I do lump together. Like BW, I believe the Jones decision to be Schoen’s and without influence.
Their scorecard for me is.
Killing it with a shit roster an giving me an unexpected season. A+
Crazy injuries scuttled a season that they were not prepared for, they believed the hype. The team still played hard. D+
We riding a B but I think these guys have the chops.
Sometimes things don't work out. It's easy in hindsight to be 100% correct all of the time. If the point of the OP here is that the contract doesn't cripple us for the next 3 years then it's true that it was a "good contract".
It's still to be seen.
Phila, while not without flaws and/or personnel losses, did seem to have a very good offseason.
Dallas, the Giants have not beaten with Prescott at QB since 2016.
Wash seems to have put a foundation in. We'll need to see how successful their decisions are.
It seems like it comes down to 4 positions for the Giants:
1. QB - enough said already
2. RT (Oline on the whole, but truly RT)
3. CB - opposite Banks (who still needs to improve) AND Slot CB
4. Dline - who plays other than D.Lawrence?
One could argue skill positions belong there is well, but for the moment I am going to assume the WR Corps, TE group, and RB group can at least be league average (maybe a big assumption on my part).
IF they get positive answers to those 4 questions, they might be able to have a competitive/successful season....If not, they are back in the top 10 in 2025 draft.
I am not getting sucked in again. Every offseason we develop hope. Most every September/October they start 1-5 or 1-6. You want to take emotion out of it, fine. Those are the unbiased facts.
Can we get a link for those 5 games? I remember screaming to my wife that DJ is going to get killed by all those sacks.
Biggest impact players in 2022: DJ, SB, AT, Dex, Leo, Jax, X, Love and Thibs. Remains to be seen what impact the new players will have. 2022 is the only year where DJ, AT and SB played the whole season together healthy.
Biggest issue continues to be good enough on the D front/OL. Both need to be good this season to continue with this regime intact heading into 2025 imv.
Why was the transition tag a stupid idea?
You need to look at this through the lens of reasonability.
What was the more reasonable approach? Rewarding a good year or a great year?
If Jones had a great year in 2022, there is a much stronger case for the multi-year contract.
But his 2022 was good. And what brought his performance up to good was the running performance, not the passing.
So, there was much more to prove, especially on the passing side with Jones. Thus, applying either tag was much more reasonable that the 4yr contract. And this isn't hindsight. It was discussed in depth on the board from the end of the season through Jones re-signing in March of 2023.
Somehow this wildcard victory provided tremendous leverage to Team Jones, a QB that had a winning percentage of about 35% over his first 60 starts while throwing for only 62 TDs and 42 Ints.
And even despite this leverage, Schoen is described by this OP doing a great job negotiating this contract only giving Jones a $160M deal with only a mere $90M in guarantees and a decent injury guarantee.
Thank goodness Schoen kept his head about him while putting this one on the books.
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BW i know what the hind sight looked like. IDGAF. I the were year 1 GM coach that were the toast of town. There was no way Jones was not getting signed. It was the easiest thing in the world to predict. I wont go down this road with you. Live in your world with your narrative. I respect your opinion, I LOOK for your posts. I am confident I have a good grasp of your opinion on this. I totally disagree.
You need to look at this through the lens of reasonability.
What was the more reasonable approach? Rewarding a good year or a great year?
If Jones had a great year in 2022, there is a much stronger case for the multi-year contract.
But his 2022 was good. And what brought his performance up to good was the running performance, not the passing.
So, there was much more to prove, especially on the passing side with Jones. Thus, applying either tag was much more reasonable that the 4yr contract. And this isn't hindsight. It was discussed in depth on the board from the end of the season through Jones re-signing in March of 2023.
More leverage with the NEFT with the draft compensation and the financial impact of the two tags is not very big.
Quote:
Schoen did a great job negotiating the Jones contract.
(Quick disclaimer: I absolutely believe Schoen drove the Jones contract, not Mara)
Now, a sentence like this takes an incredible imagination - consider that a euphemism - to call that outcome great.
Right now, Jones is paid at the 10th best player in the NFL heading into the 2024 season. Just think about that. There is absolutely nothing great about that.
Rewarding a player for 15 passing TDs and playing well in a playoff game against a putrid Minnesota D, was much better handled with another one-year, prove it deal. Which, btw, would have avoided the injury clause issue, too...
I think the "Great Job" is seen in term of the contract not the $$, He was going to get paid and we had to pay up for the optionality of getting out if it didn't play out well. I'd much rather have the 2-3 year out than than a 5-7yr albatross.
Im not down on Joe Schoen or Daboll yet, but more just not ready to pronounce the Giants as a better team as OP states. There biggest issues are still their biggest issues. They are not a better team until they prove it. If people want the warm and fuzzies about this team, by all means, but I don’t see a real basis for it.
As I see it, there were only two reasons to opt for going with the $40M/year four year deal over the $32M franchise tag: 1) they feared Carolina would sign him; 2) coming off a 2022 season that exceeded expectations, they were confident 2023 would be a banner year and felt Jones would command $50M/year in 2024.
As I see it, there were only two reasons to opt for going with the $40M/year four year deal over the $32M franchise tag: 1) they feared Carolina would sign him; 2) coming off a 2022 season that exceeded expectations, they were confident 2023 would be a banner year and felt Jones would command $50M/year in 2024.
Teams don't get to the divisional round and change course. If there are examples of it, I'd love to hear them. I think it's simple: Mara/Schoen/Daboll wanted the opportunity to keep building what they achieved in 2022. That's it. And that included Jones AND Barkley. That's what it was and Schoen referenced Jones age multiple times.
Tampa is the closest example and they are doing the same thing. Mayfield is a more advantageous contract but they learned from the Giants mistakes. But, they're still making a significant financial investment in Mayfield.
Its clear as day to me. Unless Jones play to a top 10 level this season, you are not getting good value on that contract. Simply as that.
Not to mention the money spent last year and the likely dead hit in 2025.
They 100% would have been better off now tagging him.
When did Goff got paid? I don't recall the exact timing. And that wasn't the next season. I'm talking about the next season.
As I see it, there were only two reasons to opt for going with the $40M/year four year deal over the $32M franchise tag: 1) they feared Carolina would sign him; 2) coming off a 2022 season that exceeded expectations, they were confident 2023 would be a banner year and felt Jones would command $50M/year in 2024.
You truly never know but Carolina traded for the 1st overall pick at about the same time. They weren't in on Jones.
And if they were confident 2023 would be a banner year, they would have been happy to pay him more for 2024 and beyond.
The Giants had all the leverage and it was perfect case for the franchise tag. Schoen blew it.
“Jinkies!!” If every team was as smart as you.
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The move with Jones was to do what the Bucs did with Mayfield. Let him become an unrestricted free agent. There was no great market for Jones, for a limited QB who never showed great production and was coming off of a 15 TD season where he played the whole season. But of course the Giants are not as smart as the Bucs and negotiated against themselves.
“Jinkies!!” If every team was as smart as you.
Back to stalking posters on here, I see? What happened? The school yard was empty?
More leverage with the NEFT with the draft compensation and the financial impact of the two tags is not very big.
I preferred the TT because no team was giving NYG two first rounders to possibly acquire Jones. No team did it with LJax. So, that was a non-starter from the start.
The TT, however, had no such restrictions and would have given us a true idea of what the NFL market thought about Jones. And Schoen still had the final say to match whatever offer Jones may have received. Per ajr and his insights, the feeling around the NFL was Jones was not worth more than $20-$25M AAV.
What is the downside/stupidity of that?
They declined his option, made training camp harder on him on purpose and Jones answered the bell. They were in the trenches together, it was too much of risk to ask a young GM/coach team to pivot from Jones. If they shared your views on his ability to play QB in the NFL.
The NY Giants have made no effort to replace to Jones. The best is we have are reports they tried to trade up. Did they really? It doesn’t seem like it.
If you tend to be more skeptic about the Giants given the past several years, you tend to see opportunities missed and decisions that may or may not work out.
I think this offseason confirmed for everyone what they already believed - the Giants hired the right people or they didn't. I don't think anyone changed their mind based on the offseason activity.
The only proof we will get is when they start playing games that matter.
I think this ranks as one fairest statements on this site. Good Job
Nabers is a stud, Nubin should be good, Phillips is an experienced SEC corner who's never made an interception (???), Tyrone Tracy is the next Deebo and Muasa is definitely a game changer (eyes roll back into my skull).
Hey at least we added a vet guard who was decent with his last team named Glowinski... oh wait he didn't work out but Runyan absolutely will.
I'm done with every summer trying to twist myself into thinking the moves I just watched will lead the team to compete when I know they won't.
Washington is pulling ahead, just because you watch doesn't mean you have to believe they will be good just do it out of tradition. There's sufficient evidence at this point to back up that approach but it's america so please do as you like.