Schoen is kicking the can down the road a bit. Unless the right QB drops in his lap, build the rest of the team, THEN take more risks at the QB position.
So when the rest of the roster is ready to win, are you suggesting a) the team go through their championship window with a rookie? or b) when all the other pieces are in place, you select the QB in that draft (forcing the pick)?
"Build the rest of the team and then get the QB" is another way of saying "When you need the QB, take the best one available when you are on the clock in the year you need him."
This is an important discussion.
There is a legit thought process even in the draft community about building up the team first before "wasting" the rookie-deal QB years with a bad roster.
However, as you point out, how likely is an inexperience QB going to be able to lead a team to a championship? Mahomes is an outlier.
It is not clear that JS and BD like Daniel Jones. There are plenty of possible alternate explanations for deciding to pass on Penix, JJM, and Nix. Here's one. They may have been warned by Mara that they will get one shot at a highly-drafted QB and unless they have love for the prospect, they shouldn't bother. And that's how you pass on a QB who you might think is better than Daniel Jones, but not good enough. Great being the enemy of good.
Fair enough.
But it's just as feasible that Schoen (and Daboll) believes that 2023 was less about Jones and more about the other parts because we actually have a record of Schoen saying that.
And they believe that if they can fix those other parts, they can build on Jones, V2022. In other words, 2024 will be giving Jones a second crack at playing without training wheels.
All of this makes me ill. But I'm in a different space with this than many because I believe Schoen is not merely following direct orders from General John.
McCarthy, Penix, and Nix weren't even considered 1st round talents a couple of months before the draft. QB desperate teams may have forced those picks.
In reality, the entire NFL can't scout QBs worth shit. The odds are one or two of Williams, Daniels, and Maye will bust. And the odds are one of of Penix, McCarthy, and Nix will end up being pretty good.
But taking Nabers (more of a sure thing as a true "blue chip" talent) is defensible.
Yes. I love Nabers as a prospect. But I love him a lot more with a top QB. Feels like a luxury pick for the Giants. That's why I say, if one of those next 3 QBs pans out, then we have to take a long hard look at Schoen's tenure. KOC and Payton aren't exactly slouches.
McCarthy, Penix, and Nix weren't even considered 1st round talents a couple of months before the draft. QB desperate teams may have forced those picks.
In reality, the entire NFL can't scout QBs worth shit. The odds are one or two of Williams, Daniels, and Maye will bust. And the odds are one of of Penix, McCarthy, and Nix will end up being pretty good.
But taking Nabers (more of a sure thing as a true "blue chip" talent) is defensible.
Yes. I love Nabers as a prospect. But I love him a lot more with a top QB. Feels like a luxury pick for the Giants. That's why I say, if one of those next 3 QBs pans out, then we have to take a long hard look at Schoen's tenure. KOC and Payton aren't exactly slouches.
Didn’t KOC miss the playoffs last year and lose to a Daniel Jones led team? Maybe a little success is needed before crowning him, no?
if you hate Jones this will 100% appeal to you. if you think the team as whole can be better with changes we have made this will be ok. if you think Jones will be better with an improved Oline and improved weapons then you will hate this commentary.
Overall I don't know who this chic is but she seems fixated on using jones as her main Giants talking points- which has fan appeal but she rarely provides much beyond a basic fan level observation. keep in mind while some major QB's played in the playoffs last year we also saw:
Baker Mayfield
Mason Rudolph
Joe Flacco
Will Levis
Jordan Love (who until last year had not really done much and even lost to the Giants last season)
We act like the league is all made up of SB MVP QB's except the Giants.
Goff was suppose to just be a stop gap in Detroit and Hooker was to be the successor. Now he is the "highest paid" QB ...
Jones has to find a way to trust his OL again and reset his internal clock regarding in regards to pocket presence. At his best so far he actually as spreaded the ball around because he has had no true #1. Waller, Engram, Tate and Golladay were suppose to be the lead "dawg" ... Slayton has been the most consistent "leading" WR for a few years now. Slayton is not a true #1.
Jones can get the job done with a good team. Complimentary football ... Let's see what happens with a competent OL and a WR corp that has all the roles truly filled. Not 2s and 3s trying to be 1s and 2s. Actual run blocking TEs to assist the OLs.
Mario and Jim Kelly could not do it all alone. It was not until Peyton had a complete team he won a SB.
Jones may need to be replaced but with a decent supporting cast he has a punchers can.
RE: RE: Im at the point we should change the name of the site
every damn day.. another 48 Daniel Jones threads..
Jones is the 10th highest paid player in the NFL and eats up 19% of our 2024 cap as the QB.
He can't stay healthy. And when he has been healthy, the results have mostly been below average.
And now we are in chapter six of the Jones Experience.
What the hell is more interesting than that?
Really we are in chapter 10/11 in the OL saga. 2012 was the last year we had a "viable" OL. In 2013 we draft rookie Justin Pugh, I'm just saying .... Looking back at the starting OL over the years is disheartening.
Your statement about the SB winning QBs throughout the league is spot on. And this is why I give the Giants credit for passing on a QB after failing to get Maye. You look at the QBs who are going to conference championship games and you either need a great team or a one of a small handful of high level QBs. These people act like reaching for a QB means you are building to win a SB and everyone is doing but NYG. NYG is trying to get a SB worthy QB --not move on from one guy who isn't there to another. No one criticizes Dallas for Dak, as an example, but they're waking up to the fact that he's never going to win them a SB.
Well, we know that sticking with the incumbent and handing him 40 mill a year certainly isn't going to get us anywhere. But, let's run it back so Jones can have another mediocre year, at best, and his ardent supporters (including the owner) can indulge their fantasies again.
Frankly, that list of qb's just proves the abject stupidity of handing Jones that contract and commitment.
You're talking two different things here, let's not confuse them. Giving the contract was a mistake. But as far as the running back with Jones comment goes, what exactly was the championship solution out there for them? Over drafting another QB? Sure, that's we got here, let's try it again. Russ Wilson? Please.
RE: RE: RE: If Jones can't read defenses like is constantly said why wouldn't
Daboll, Kafka and for that matter Shoen not know this?
They know this.
In fact, how they game-planned him in 2022 confirms this. He wasn't reading the field very much. If his main read wasn't wide open he either tucked and ran or dumped off to a safety valve.
If this is true and I have no reason to doubt it. Then shame on them for the contract despite being able to get out of it after this year.
It’s about getting value for your picks. You can get a guy who’s a bit below value if you have a great need or it’s a QB. But you can’t pass up top talent for someone who isn’t in the same ballpark value wise. That seemed like what this last draft told us. Those other three QB weren’t good enough as they saw them. And we know they would have taken one if it was one they liked.
RE: RE: RE: RE: If Jones can't read defenses like is constantly said why wouldn't
Daboll, Kafka and for that matter Shoen not know this?
They know this.
In fact, how they game-planned him in 2022 confirms this. He wasn't reading the field very much. If his main read wasn't wide open he either tucked and ran or dumped off to a safety valve.
If this is true and I have no reason to doubt it. Then shame on them for the contract despite being able to get out of it after this year.
They don’t believe this. More made up shit from the poster. Do you really think a GM and HC would strap their careers on a QB who is a one read QB?
Your statement about the SB winning QBs throughout the league is spot on. And this is why I give the Giants credit for passing on a QB after failing to get Maye. You look at the QBs who are going to conference championship games and you either need a great team or a one of a small handful of high level QBs. These people act like reaching for a QB means you are building to win a SB and everyone is doing but NYG. NYG is trying to get a SB worthy QB --not move on from one guy who isn't there to another. No one criticizes Dallas for Dak, as an example, but they're waking up to the fact that he's never going to win them a SB.
Well, we know that sticking with the incumbent and handing him 40 mill a year certainly isn't going to get us anywhere. But, let's run it back so Jones can have another mediocre year, at best, and his ardent supporters (including the owner) can indulge their fantasies again.
Frankly, that list of qb's just proves the abject stupidity of handing Jones that contract and commitment.
You're talking two different things here, let's not confuse them. Giving the contract was a mistake. But as far as the running back with Jones comment goes, what exactly was the championship solution out there for them? Over drafting another QB? Sure, that's we got here, let's try it again. Russ Wilson? Please.
The plan was already in place when Schoen arrived.
'22: Jones (cheap)
'23: Taylor (cheap)
'24: Draft pick (cheap)
Instead, it's been:
'22: Jones (cheap)
'23: Jones/Taylor/DeVito (expensive)
'24: Jones/Lock/DeVito (expensive)
"Build the roster and then get the QB" is not a thing for a very good reason: good QBs aren't just sitting there waiting to be acquired.
The Giants get this wrong on both ends of the QB life cycle:
1. They have to be in full bloom love to consider drafting the prospect
2. Once the prospect is drafted they give him a very long leash
That is deeply flawed resource management in today's NFL.
This is contradictory. You claim "good QBs aren't just sitting there waiting to be acquired" yet you fault the Giants for allegedly having to "be in full bloom love to consider drafting the prospect."
The Giants seem to agree with your assessment that good QBs aren't plentiful, as they chose a top WR prospect over what they felt was the 4th QB in this draft. Yet you also criticize them for not drafting a QB they don't love, just to draft a QB.
that it seems that many of the people who criticized Gettleman reaching for Jones, seem to want Schoen to reach for a QB, any QB, regardless of the grade the front office has on them.
John Mara was stopped in the middle of this joyous Giants locker room and marveled at the way his franchise quarterback performed.
“To me, it was the poise,” Mara said. “That building is as loud as can be, and you look at him, and he’s in complete control of the offense. It gave me a lot of confidence that I don’t care how many times they score, we’re gonna score more.”
I asked Mara when it became a finality to him that Daniel Jones would be his Quarterback of the Future.
“It was a while ago I think … he just keeps getting better and better every week,” Mara said.
Mara laughed when it was suggested that he got the succession plan for Eli right (yes, with former GM Dave Gettleman’s help) and said: “Hey I can’t screw up everything, I gotta get something right.”
Quote:
Kid brother Chris Mara: “We got somebody going forward.”
Asked what he thought of his quarterback, Steve Tisch smiled and said: “The world.”
"Build the roster and then get the QB" is not a thing for a very good reason: good QBs aren't just sitting there waiting to be acquired.
The Giants get this wrong on both ends of the QB life cycle:
1. They have to be in full bloom love to consider drafting the prospect
2. Once the prospect is drafted they give him a very long leash
That is deeply flawed resource management in today's NFL.
This is contradictory. You claim "good QBs aren't just sitting there waiting to be acquired" yet you fault the Giants for allegedly having to "be in full bloom love to consider drafting the prospect."
The Giants seem to agree with your assessment that good QBs aren't plentiful, as they chose a top WR prospect over what they felt was the 4th QB in this draft. Yet you also criticize them for not drafting a QB they don't love, just to draft a QB.
I think you've got to keep trying until you find one. The league is set up where the benefit of finding the quarterback is greater than it's ever been, but the penalty for missing on a prospect is smaller than it's ever been. I would keep trying, and when you find the guy you pay him.
The Giants don't seem to feel like they need to try very hard.
that it seems that many of the people who criticized Gettleman reaching for Jones, seem to want Schoen to reach for a QB, any QB, regardless of the grade the front office has on them.
This front office paid Jones. They also thought Maye was so much better than the other 3 he was worth trading for, but the others weren't worth drafting at 6.
I'd be reevaluating the grading process if I were them.
but I don't know that you're doing that in a draft with 6 picks, with the #6 pick. If they don't have high grades on the QB, I'd much rather a low risk, high ceiling WR like Nabers at #6 than the #4 QB in the draft that they aren't that high on
Your statement about the SB winning QBs throughout the league is spot on. And this is why I give the Giants credit for passing on a QB after failing to get Maye. You look at the QBs who are going to conference championship games and you either need a great team or a one of a small handful of high level QBs. These people act like reaching for a QB means you are building to win a SB and everyone is doing but NYG. NYG is trying to get a SB worthy QB --not move on from one guy who isn't there to another. No one criticizes Dallas for Dak, as an example, but they're waking up to the fact that he's never going to win them a SB.
Well, we know that sticking with the incumbent and handing him 40 mill a year certainly isn't going to get us anywhere. But, let's run it back so Jones can have another mediocre year, at best, and his ardent supporters (including the owner) can indulge their fantasies again.
Frankly, that list of qb's just proves the abject stupidity of handing Jones that contract and commitment.
You're talking two different things here, let's not confuse them. Giving the contract was a mistake. But as far as the running back with Jones comment goes, what exactly was the championship solution out there for them? Over drafting another QB? Sure, that's we got here, let's try it again. Russ Wilson? Please.
The plan was already in place when Schoen arrived.
'22: Jones (cheap)
'23: Taylor (cheap)
'24: Draft pick (cheap)
Instead, it's been:
'22: Jones (cheap)
'23: Jones/Taylor/DeVito (expensive)
'24: Jones/Lock/DeVito (expensive)
Great job, guys!
Terps --this is utter nonsense. What draft pick were they going to draft on 24? Unless they somehow would have had a top 3 pick --that wasn't happening. They had their chance. Clearly they didn't see QBs 4 - 6 as answers.
The difference between your two plans here is the DJ contract. But neither plan yields us an answer to the QB position.
If they didn't see picking one of Penix, McCarthy, or Nix at #6 as a viable alternative, why does anyone think they're going to be in position to draft a quarterback in 2025???
That's why some of us are saying Jones might not be going anywhere.
Having some cheap, mediocre QBs with upside is an answer. You can spend more on your roster and you can find guys who are good fits with your talent/scheme. And maybe one of then pops. QB is a very unpredictable position, in both the boom and bust directions
Obviously this is not as good as having a great QB. But the answer we chose is expensive, mediocre, with no upside. That is a real bad answer.
There may not be somebody. We literally didn't know who they were going to draft this year the day of the draft. So no one anticipating what the options will be in 25.
If they didn't see picking one of Penix, McCarthy, or Nix at #6 as a viable alternative, why does anyone think they're going to be in position to draft a quarterback in 2025???
That's why some of us are saying Jones might not be going anywhere.
Because his contract has an exit ramp. It didn't this year. Otherwise, just restructure him now and fully commit to him.
Because his contract has an exit ramp. It didn't this year. Otherwise, just restructure him now and fully commit to him.
Jones was the same cap hit this year whether starting or holding a clipboard. The money that went to sign Drew Lock could have been earmarked for the top QB available at #6.
That's an exit plan the Giants passed on and it's not at all clear a more attractive one is going to present itself for 2025.
I don't know who these guys are but they have to be BBIers: "The Giants have a problem if Daniel Jones plays too well" Because then they have to extend a guy they don't want to.
That might be the single stupidest line in sports history. And that says a lot.
(Anti) Jones Derangement Syndrome taken to new heights.
Anyone who says "xxxx derangement syndrome" is automatically a fucking idiot. But to think that's the "single stupidest line" in sports history really drives home how fucking clueless you are.
Yeah, paying DJ would be a fucking disaster. Because he will NEVER be consistently good, even if he somehow catches lightning in a bottle and someone stick a horseshoe up his ass for a season resulting in like, idk, 4000 yards and 30 TDs (not even crazy numbers)
If they didn't see picking one of Penix, McCarthy, or Nix at #6 as a viable alternative, why does anyone think they're going to be in position to draft a quarterback in 2025???
That's why some of us are saying Jones might not be going anywhere.
Because his contract has an exit ramp. It didn't this year. Otherwise, just restructure him now and fully commit to him.
But I'm not asking the question in the context of Jones being here. I'm just talking about how the Giants approach drafting a QB.
If those three guys aren't good enough for them to draft at #6 why do we think they will draft one next year? The QB options available probably aren't going to be as good, according to everything you hear. And even if they are, who is the guy that will generate the full bloom love necessary for them to make the jump? Quinn Ewers? Carson Beck? It's possible, but the odds seem lower this year than next.
I think it plays out how Jerry said above. Why exercise the "out" in Jones's contact when there's no one worth doing it for?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: If Jones can't read defenses like is constantly said why wouldn't
Daboll, Kafka and for that matter Shoen not know this?
They know this.
In fact, how they game-planned him in 2022 confirms this. He wasn't reading the field very much. If his main read wasn't wide open he either tucked and ran or dumped off to a safety valve.
If this is true and I have no reason to doubt it. Then shame on them for the contract despite being able to get out of it after this year.
They don’t believe this. More made up shit from the poster. Do you really think a GM and HC would strap their careers on a QB who is a one read QB?
lol of course they wouldn't, which is wyhy they tried to get rid of him this year.
they HAD to pay him and see if he could grow after his first year with dabs. he failed miserably.
I cannot understand how someone could watch 6 fucking years of this QB and still have such an attachment to him. it's so bizarre
Because his contract has an exit ramp. It didn't this year. Otherwise, just restructure him now and fully commit to him.
Jones was the same cap hit this year whether starting or holding a clipboard. The money that went to sign Drew Lock could have been earmarked for the top QB available at #6.
That's an exit plan the Giants passed on and it's not at all clear a more attractive one is going to present itself for 2025.
Earmarked?
Huh?
You do realize that the draft picks salaries are basically pre determined
Nabers or a QB…..the salary is pretty much the same
Had the Giants tagged Jones, I think McCarthy is a Giant right now. I think the contract mattered. You, Sy & christian were right.
I won't take credit - I talked myself out of it by the time the draft rolled around. That Thursday morning I was pretty sure they'd grab a QB. The Nabers pick was the most disappointing moment I've had as a fan since 2018. It was like reliving the Barkley pick. That's what I get for being an optimist with this group of people running the team.
If the contact mattered they're even dumber than I thought. It's clear they just don't get it.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: If Jones can't read defenses like is constantly said why wouldn't
Daboll, Kafka and for that matter Shoen not know this?
They know this.
In fact, how they game-planned him in 2022 confirms this. He wasn't reading the field very much. If his main read wasn't wide open he either tucked and ran or dumped off to a safety valve.
If this is true and I have no reason to doubt it. Then shame on them for the contract despite being able to get out of it after this year.
They don’t believe this. More made up shit from the poster. Do you really think a GM and HC would strap their careers on a QB who is a one read QB?
lol of course they wouldn't, which is wyhy they tried to get rid of him this year.
they HAD to pay him and see if he could grow after his first year with dabs. he failed miserably.
I cannot understand how someone could watch 6 fucking years of this QB and still have such an attachment to him. it's so bizarre
They tried to get rid of him? Never saw it, please post.
I don't know who these guys are but they have to be BBIers: "The Giants have a problem if Daniel Jones plays too well" Because then they have to extend a guy they don't want to.
That might be the single stupidest line in sports history. And that says a lot.
(Anti) Jones Derangement Syndrome taken to new heights.
Anyone who says "xxxx derangement syndrome" is automatically a fucking idiot. But to think that's the "single stupidest line" in sports history really drives home how fucking clueless you are.
Yeah, paying DJ would be a fucking disaster. Because he will NEVER be consistently good, even if he somehow catches lightning in a bottle and someone stick a horseshoe up his ass for a season resulting in like, idk, 4000 yards and 30 TDs (not even crazy numbers)
Sad thing is if he put up those numbers this team would want to retire his number on the spot. When in reality that is the level he needs to perform at to even try to justify that contract.
But I think there is a very good chance he's QB1 in 2025. As a fan, I completely misjudged how they viewed him and handled him this offseason.
I don't know who these guys are but they have to be BBIers: "The Giants have a problem if Daniel Jones plays too well" Because then they have to extend a guy they don't want to.
That might be the single stupidest line in sports history. And that says a lot.
(Anti) Jones Derangement Syndrome taken to new heights.
Anyone who says "xxxx derangement syndrome" is automatically a fucking idiot. But to think that's the "single stupidest line" in sports history really drives home how fucking clueless you are.
Yeah, paying DJ would be a fucking disaster. Because he will NEVER be consistently good, even if he somehow catches lightning in a bottle and someone stick a horseshoe up his ass for a season resulting in like, idk, 4000 yards and 30 TDs (not even crazy numbers)
Sad thing is if he put up those numbers this team would want to retire his number on the spot. When in reality that is the level he needs to perform at to even try to justify that contract.
But I think there is a very good chance he's QB1 in 2025. As a fan, I completely misjudged how they viewed him and handled him this offseason.
Jones was the same cap hit this year whether starting or holding a clipboard. The money that went to sign Drew Lock could have been earmarked for the top QB available at #6.
That's an exit plan the Giants passed on and it's not at all clear a more attractive one is going to present itself for 2025.
The Jones contract at this point is an excuse for those who think Schoen was somehow hamstrung going into 2024; and, therefore, left no choice but to keep him in some manner.
I know the ship has sailed, but ideally the outcome would have been draft a QB in the lottery, cut Jones as a post-June 1st casualty, and bring in a Lock and/or keep DeVito as insurance.
does not have the talent to be a top tier talent. The worst place to be is paying for mediocrity. Mina is 100 percent correct. So many of you just don't want admit the truth. And then there is the fact that you can't accept the fact that this WOMAN was right about Jones all along. Right from day 1 when she made fun of Gettleman drafting him.
+1.
She is excellent. I haven't listened to the vid yet but the ones slamming her it appears they've deliberately over-exaggerated her comments and tuned out anything potentially positive she might have said or implied - just so they can go on attack.
And some posters just can't understand the comment "if he does well it's not good . . ." They speak of mediocrity when they make this comment more than likely - as what many on here have tried to explain. But those that don't want to hear any complaints just continue to want to block their ears and lash out to anyone that doesn’t agree with their opinion that Jones deserved another year.
that it seems that many of the people who criticized Gettleman reaching for Jones, seem to want Schoen to reach for a QB, any QB, regardless of the grade the front office has on them.
The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. All they hold is that DJ must go, so anyone must be better. There's no such thing as a reach if it means DJ is gone. If the grade isn't high enough for the front office, it's because the FO is head over heels in love with DJ. Or they can't evaluate. The Haters have one criterion: Not DJ = worth taking at 6.
that it seems that many of the people who criticized Gettleman reaching for Jones, seem to want Schoen to reach for a QB, any QB, regardless of the grade the front office has on them.
The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. All they hold is that DJ must go, so anyone must be better. There's no such thing as a reach if it means DJ is gone. If the grade isn't high enough for the front office, it's because the FO is head over heels in love with DJ. Or they can't evaluate. The Haters have one criterion: Not DJ = worth taking at 6.
This is all a made up invention in your own mind. Keep the imagination flowing.
that it seems that many of the people who criticized Gettleman reaching for Jones, seem to want Schoen to reach for a QB, any QB, regardless of the grade the front office has on them.
The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. All they hold is that DJ must go, so anyone must be better. There's no such thing as a reach if it means DJ is gone. If the grade isn't high enough for the front office, it's because the FO is head over heels in love with DJ. Or they can't evaluate. The Haters have one criterion: Not DJ = worth taking at 6.
This is all a made up invention in your own mind. Keep the imagination flowing.
It’s absolutely 100% true with posters here. They have flat out admitted it.
Why do certain college programs keep turning out 1st round QBs with spectacular statistics that fail in the NFL?
Great QBs are incredibly hard to find, even when the best ones want to come to your program. They leave soon if great. They need to build simple systems that the next guy up just goes in and plays.
Did you notice Tua got A LOT better once they added Waddle and Hill. Daboll is trying to do a similar thing here. I believe they think Jones will be an above average player in their system. IE a good system QB. Much easier to find than Aaron Rodger’s. They now have an elite playmaker in Nabers but everyone else is explosive. The system is designed to dink and dunk down the field and employ players with separation that create big play on their own.
I believe Daniel Jones VERY capable of throwing short passes at a high completion percentage. If the targets are explosive and excel at separation
I suspect Jones to do MUCH better than most. Making no guarantees but admit to excitement and hope. I see a plan. I don’t love Jones, I just think him capable of executing this offense. Their should be more space for his legs.
Players from other teams openly mock him. This doesn't happen with any other QBs. Yet people here somehow think they know more and he's suddenly going to become a great QB. The Jones fan club is a cult.
The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. All they hold is that DJ must go, so anyone must be better. There's no such thing as a reach if it means DJ is gone. If the grade isn't high enough for the front office, it's because the FO is head over heels in love with DJ. Or they can't evaluate. The Haters have one criterion: Not DJ = worth taking at 6.
Drawing a conclusion with five years of data isn't hate.
that it seems that many of the people who criticized Gettleman reaching for Jones, seem to want Schoen to reach for a QB, any QB, regardless of the grade the front office has on them.
The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. All they hold is that DJ must go, so anyone must be better. There's no such thing as a reach if it means DJ is gone. If the grade isn't high enough for the front office, it's because the FO is head over heels in love with DJ. Or they can't evaluate. The Haters have one criterion: Not DJ = worth taking at 6.
It is fear. Jones could suffer a similar fate to Tua if Nabers is the real deal. Jones skill set fits this system designed on playmakers. It is essentially a college system. We needed players that fit. A healthy Jones ran the system effectively in 2022 with absolute shite for explosives plays from his targets. That is what I believe Daboll saw and why we didn’t make any effort to replace Daniel Jones.
Quote:
Schoen is kicking the can down the road a bit. Unless the right QB drops in his lap, build the rest of the team, THEN take more risks at the QB position.
So when the rest of the roster is ready to win, are you suggesting a) the team go through their championship window with a rookie? or b) when all the other pieces are in place, you select the QB in that draft (forcing the pick)?
"Build the rest of the team and then get the QB" is another way of saying "When you need the QB, take the best one available when you are on the clock in the year you need him."
This is an important discussion.
There is a legit thought process even in the draft community about building up the team first before "wasting" the rookie-deal QB years with a bad roster.
However, as you point out, how likely is an inexperience QB going to be able to lead a team to a championship? Mahomes is an outlier.
Tough questions.
It is not clear that JS and BD like Daniel Jones. There are plenty of possible alternate explanations for deciding to pass on Penix, JJM, and Nix. Here's one. They may have been warned by Mara that they will get one shot at a highly-drafted QB and unless they have love for the prospect, they shouldn't bother. And that's how you pass on a QB who you might think is better than Daniel Jones, but not good enough. Great being the enemy of good.
Fair enough.
But it's just as feasible that Schoen (and Daboll) believes that 2023 was less about Jones and more about the other parts because we actually have a record of Schoen saying that.
And they believe that if they can fix those other parts, they can build on Jones, V2022. In other words, 2024 will be giving Jones a second crack at playing without training wheels.
All of this makes me ill. But I'm in a different space with this than many because I believe Schoen is not merely following direct orders from General John.
McCarthy, Penix, and Nix weren't even considered 1st round talents a couple of months before the draft. QB desperate teams may have forced those picks.
In reality, the entire NFL can't scout QBs worth shit. The odds are one or two of Williams, Daniels, and Maye will bust. And the odds are one of of Penix, McCarthy, and Nix will end up being pretty good.
But taking Nabers (more of a sure thing as a true "blue chip" talent) is defensible.
Yes. I love Nabers as a prospect. But I love him a lot more with a top QB. Feels like a luxury pick for the Giants. That's why I say, if one of those next 3 QBs pans out, then we have to take a long hard look at Schoen's tenure. KOC and Payton aren't exactly slouches.
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Well that and the more obvious conclusion:
McCarthy, Penix, and Nix weren't even considered 1st round talents a couple of months before the draft. QB desperate teams may have forced those picks.
In reality, the entire NFL can't scout QBs worth shit. The odds are one or two of Williams, Daniels, and Maye will bust. And the odds are one of of Penix, McCarthy, and Nix will end up being pretty good.
But taking Nabers (more of a sure thing as a true "blue chip" talent) is defensible.
Yes. I love Nabers as a prospect. But I love him a lot more with a top QB. Feels like a luxury pick for the Giants. That's why I say, if one of those next 3 QBs pans out, then we have to take a long hard look at Schoen's tenure. KOC and Payton aren't exactly slouches.
Didn’t KOC miss the playoffs last year and lose to a Daniel Jones led team? Maybe a little success is needed before crowning him, no?
The Giants get this wrong on both ends of the QB life cycle:
1. They have to be in full bloom love to consider drafting the prospect
2. Once the prospect is drafted they give him a very long leash
That is deeply flawed resource management in today's NFL.
The Giants get this wrong on both ends of the QB life cycle:
1. They have to be in full bloom love to consider drafting the prospect
2. Once the prospect is drafted they give him a very long leash
That is deeply flawed resource management in today's NFL.
It worked for these SB champions recently:
KC x3
Rams
Bucs
Building a roster is more than just finding a QB.
Overall I don't know who this chic is but she seems fixated on using jones as her main Giants talking points- which has fan appeal but she rarely provides much beyond a basic fan level observation. keep in mind while some major QB's played in the playoffs last year we also saw:
Baker Mayfield
Mason Rudolph
Joe Flacco
Will Levis
Jordan Love (who until last year had not really done much and even lost to the Giants last season)
We act like the league is all made up of SB MVP QB's except the Giants.
Goff was suppose to just be a stop gap in Detroit and Hooker was to be the successor. Now he is the "highest paid" QB ...
Jones has to find a way to trust his OL again and reset his internal clock regarding in regards to pocket presence. At his best so far he actually as spreaded the ball around because he has had no true #1. Waller, Engram, Tate and Golladay were suppose to be the lead "dawg" ... Slayton has been the most consistent "leading" WR for a few years now. Slayton is not a true #1.
2019 - https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg/2019.htm
2020 - https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg/2020.htm
2021 - https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg/2021.htm
2022 - https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg/2022.htm
The OL was poor in all those years.
Jones can get the job done with a good team. Complimentary football ... Let's see what happens with a competent OL and a WR corp that has all the roles truly filled. Not 2s and 3s trying to be 1s and 2s. Actual run blocking TEs to assist the OLs.
Mario and Jim Kelly could not do it all alone. It was not until Peyton had a complete team he won a SB.
Jones may need to be replaced but with a decent supporting cast he has a punchers can.
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to Daniel Jones Interactive.com
every damn day.. another 48 Daniel Jones threads..
Jones is the 10th highest paid player in the NFL and eats up 19% of our 2024 cap as the QB.
He can't stay healthy. And when he has been healthy, the results have mostly been below average.
And now we are in chapter six of the Jones Experience.
What the hell is more interesting than that?
Really we are in chapter 10/11 in the OL saga. 2012 was the last year we had a "viable" OL. In 2013 we draft rookie Justin Pugh, I'm just saying .... Looking back at the starting OL over the years is disheartening.
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Your statement about the SB winning QBs throughout the league is spot on. And this is why I give the Giants credit for passing on a QB after failing to get Maye. You look at the QBs who are going to conference championship games and you either need a great team or a one of a small handful of high level QBs. These people act like reaching for a QB means you are building to win a SB and everyone is doing but NYG. NYG is trying to get a SB worthy QB --not move on from one guy who isn't there to another. No one criticizes Dallas for Dak, as an example, but they're waking up to the fact that he's never going to win them a SB.
Well, we know that sticking with the incumbent and handing him 40 mill a year certainly isn't going to get us anywhere. But, let's run it back so Jones can have another mediocre year, at best, and his ardent supporters (including the owner) can indulge their fantasies again.
Frankly, that list of qb's just proves the abject stupidity of handing Jones that contract and commitment.
You're talking two different things here, let's not confuse them. Giving the contract was a mistake. But as far as the running back with Jones comment goes, what exactly was the championship solution out there for them? Over drafting another QB? Sure, that's we got here, let's try it again. Russ Wilson? Please.
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In comment 16514496 Blue21 said:
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Daboll, Kafka and for that matter Shoen not know this?
They know this.
In fact, how they game-planned him in 2022 confirms this. He wasn't reading the field very much. If his main read wasn't wide open he either tucked and ran or dumped off to a safety valve.
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In comment 16514501 Darwinian said:
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In comment 16514496 Blue21 said:
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Daboll, Kafka and for that matter Shoen not know this?
They know this.
In fact, how they game-planned him in 2022 confirms this. He wasn't reading the field very much. If his main read wasn't wide open he either tucked and ran or dumped off to a safety valve.
If this is true and I have no reason to doubt it. Then shame on them for the contract despite being able to get out of it after this year.
They don’t believe this. More made up shit from the poster. Do you really think a GM and HC would strap their careers on a QB who is a one read QB?
Of course it does. They would believe Jones injuries are very concerning.
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If the Giants carry three QBs on the 53-man roster this year, does that hint at anything?
Of course it does. They would believe Jones injuries are very concerning.
And the reverse would be true too, right?
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In comment 16514746 Eric from BBI said:
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If the Giants carry three QBs on the 53-man roster this year, does that hint at anything?
Of course it does. They would believe Jones injuries are very concerning.
And the reverse would be true too, right?
Correct.
But maybe I’m naive - unless Jones lights it up this year (doubtful), we will be looking for a QB next year.
And what is interesting is - that QB could be starting in our division this year.
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In comment 16514259 UberAlias said:
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Your statement about the SB winning QBs throughout the league is spot on. And this is why I give the Giants credit for passing on a QB after failing to get Maye. You look at the QBs who are going to conference championship games and you either need a great team or a one of a small handful of high level QBs. These people act like reaching for a QB means you are building to win a SB and everyone is doing but NYG. NYG is trying to get a SB worthy QB --not move on from one guy who isn't there to another. No one criticizes Dallas for Dak, as an example, but they're waking up to the fact that he's never going to win them a SB.
Well, we know that sticking with the incumbent and handing him 40 mill a year certainly isn't going to get us anywhere. But, let's run it back so Jones can have another mediocre year, at best, and his ardent supporters (including the owner) can indulge their fantasies again.
Frankly, that list of qb's just proves the abject stupidity of handing Jones that contract and commitment.
You're talking two different things here, let's not confuse them. Giving the contract was a mistake. But as far as the running back with Jones comment goes, what exactly was the championship solution out there for them? Over drafting another QB? Sure, that's we got here, let's try it again. Russ Wilson? Please.
The plan was already in place when Schoen arrived.
'22: Jones (cheap)
'23: Taylor (cheap)
'24: Draft pick (cheap)
Instead, it's been:
'22: Jones (cheap)
'23: Jones/Taylor/DeVito (expensive)
'24: Jones/Lock/DeVito (expensive)
Great job, guys!
The Giants get this wrong on both ends of the QB life cycle:
1. They have to be in full bloom love to consider drafting the prospect
2. Once the prospect is drafted they give him a very long leash
That is deeply flawed resource management in today's NFL.
This is contradictory. You claim "good QBs aren't just sitting there waiting to be acquired" yet you fault the Giants for allegedly having to "be in full bloom love to consider drafting the prospect."
The Giants seem to agree with your assessment that good QBs aren't plentiful, as they chose a top WR prospect over what they felt was the 4th QB in this draft. Yet you also criticize them for not drafting a QB they don't love, just to draft a QB.
“To me, it was the poise,” Mara said. “That building is as loud as can be, and you look at him, and he’s in complete control of the offense. It gave me a lot of confidence that I don’t care how many times they score, we’re gonna score more.”
I asked Mara when it became a finality to him that Daniel Jones would be his Quarterback of the Future.
“It was a while ago I think … he just keeps getting better and better every week,” Mara said.
Mara laughed when it was suggested that he got the succession plan for Eli right (yes, with former GM Dave Gettleman’s help) and said: “Hey I can’t screw up everything, I gotta get something right.”
Asked what he thought of his quarterback, Steve Tisch smiled and said: “The world.”
Think that impacted the plan?
Link - ( New Window )
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"Build the roster and then get the QB" is not a thing for a very good reason: good QBs aren't just sitting there waiting to be acquired.
The Giants get this wrong on both ends of the QB life cycle:
1. They have to be in full bloom love to consider drafting the prospect
2. Once the prospect is drafted they give him a very long leash
That is deeply flawed resource management in today's NFL.
This is contradictory. You claim "good QBs aren't just sitting there waiting to be acquired" yet you fault the Giants for allegedly having to "be in full bloom love to consider drafting the prospect."
The Giants seem to agree with your assessment that good QBs aren't plentiful, as they chose a top WR prospect over what they felt was the 4th QB in this draft. Yet you also criticize them for not drafting a QB they don't love, just to draft a QB.
I think you've got to keep trying until you find one. The league is set up where the benefit of finding the quarterback is greater than it's ever been, but the penalty for missing on a prospect is smaller than it's ever been. I would keep trying, and when you find the guy you pay him.
The Giants don't seem to feel like they need to try very hard.
This front office paid Jones. They also thought Maye was so much better than the other 3 he was worth trading for, but the others weren't worth drafting at 6.
I'd be reevaluating the grading process if I were them.
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In comment 16514640 HomerJones45 said:
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In comment 16514259 UberAlias said:
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Your statement about the SB winning QBs throughout the league is spot on. And this is why I give the Giants credit for passing on a QB after failing to get Maye. You look at the QBs who are going to conference championship games and you either need a great team or a one of a small handful of high level QBs. These people act like reaching for a QB means you are building to win a SB and everyone is doing but NYG. NYG is trying to get a SB worthy QB --not move on from one guy who isn't there to another. No one criticizes Dallas for Dak, as an example, but they're waking up to the fact that he's never going to win them a SB.
Well, we know that sticking with the incumbent and handing him 40 mill a year certainly isn't going to get us anywhere. But, let's run it back so Jones can have another mediocre year, at best, and his ardent supporters (including the owner) can indulge their fantasies again.
Frankly, that list of qb's just proves the abject stupidity of handing Jones that contract and commitment.
You're talking two different things here, let's not confuse them. Giving the contract was a mistake. But as far as the running back with Jones comment goes, what exactly was the championship solution out there for them? Over drafting another QB? Sure, that's we got here, let's try it again. Russ Wilson? Please.
The plan was already in place when Schoen arrived.
'22: Jones (cheap)
'23: Taylor (cheap)
'24: Draft pick (cheap)
Instead, it's been:
'22: Jones (cheap)
'23: Jones/Taylor/DeVito (expensive)
'24: Jones/Lock/DeVito (expensive)
Great job, guys!
Terps --this is utter nonsense. What draft pick were they going to draft on 24? Unless they somehow would have had a top 3 pick --that wasn't happening. They had their chance. Clearly they didn't see QBs 4 - 6 as answers.
The difference between your two plans here is the DJ contract. But neither plan yields us an answer to the QB position.
That's why some of us are saying Jones might not be going anywhere.
Obviously this is not as good as having a great QB. But the answer we chose is expensive, mediocre, with no upside. That is a real bad answer.
That's why some of us are saying Jones might not be going anywhere.
Because his contract has an exit ramp. It didn't this year. Otherwise, just restructure him now and fully commit to him.
Because his contract has an exit ramp. It didn't this year. Otherwise, just restructure him now and fully commit to him.
Jones was the same cap hit this year whether starting or holding a clipboard. The money that went to sign Drew Lock could have been earmarked for the top QB available at #6.
That's an exit plan the Giants passed on and it's not at all clear a more attractive one is going to present itself for 2025.
That might be the single stupidest line in sports history. And that says a lot.
(Anti) Jones Derangement Syndrome taken to new heights.
Yeah, paying DJ would be a fucking disaster. Because he will NEVER be consistently good, even if he somehow catches lightning in a bottle and someone stick a horseshoe up his ass for a season resulting in like, idk, 4000 yards and 30 TDs (not even crazy numbers)
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If they didn't see picking one of Penix, McCarthy, or Nix at #6 as a viable alternative, why does anyone think they're going to be in position to draft a quarterback in 2025???
That's why some of us are saying Jones might not be going anywhere.
Because his contract has an exit ramp. It didn't this year. Otherwise, just restructure him now and fully commit to him.
But I'm not asking the question in the context of Jones being here. I'm just talking about how the Giants approach drafting a QB.
If those three guys aren't good enough for them to draft at #6 why do we think they will draft one next year? The QB options available probably aren't going to be as good, according to everything you hear. And even if they are, who is the guy that will generate the full bloom love necessary for them to make the jump? Quinn Ewers? Carson Beck? It's possible, but the odds seem lower this year than next.
I think it plays out how Jerry said above. Why exercise the "out" in Jones's contact when there's no one worth doing it for?
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In comment 16514509 Darwinian said:
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In comment 16514501 Darwinian said:
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In comment 16514496 Blue21 said:
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Daboll, Kafka and for that matter Shoen not know this?
They know this.
In fact, how they game-planned him in 2022 confirms this. He wasn't reading the field very much. If his main read wasn't wide open he either tucked and ran or dumped off to a safety valve.
If this is true and I have no reason to doubt it. Then shame on them for the contract despite being able to get out of it after this year.
They don’t believe this. More made up shit from the poster. Do you really think a GM and HC would strap their careers on a QB who is a one read QB?
they HAD to pay him and see if he could grow after his first year with dabs. he failed miserably.
I cannot understand how someone could watch 6 fucking years of this QB and still have such an attachment to him. it's so bizarre
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Because his contract has an exit ramp. It didn't this year. Otherwise, just restructure him now and fully commit to him.
Jones was the same cap hit this year whether starting or holding a clipboard. The money that went to sign Drew Lock could have been earmarked for the top QB available at #6.
That's an exit plan the Giants passed on and it's not at all clear a more attractive one is going to present itself for 2025.
Earmarked?
Huh?
You do realize that the draft picks salaries are basically pre determined
Nabers or a QB…..the salary is pretty much the same
That literally makes no sense
I won't take credit - I talked myself out of it by the time the draft rolled around. That Thursday morning I was pretty sure they'd grab a QB. The Nabers pick was the most disappointing moment I've had as a fan since 2018. It was like reliving the Barkley pick. That's what I get for being an optimist with this group of people running the team.
If the contact mattered they're even dumber than I thought. It's clear they just don't get it.
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In comment 16514743 Blue21 said:
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In comment 16514509 Darwinian said:
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In comment 16514501 Darwinian said:
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In comment 16514496 Blue21 said:
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Daboll, Kafka and for that matter Shoen not know this?
They know this.
In fact, how they game-planned him in 2022 confirms this. He wasn't reading the field very much. If his main read wasn't wide open he either tucked and ran or dumped off to a safety valve.
If this is true and I have no reason to doubt it. Then shame on them for the contract despite being able to get out of it after this year.
They don’t believe this. More made up shit from the poster. Do you really think a GM and HC would strap their careers on a QB who is a one read QB?
lol of course they wouldn't, which is wyhy they tried to get rid of him this year.
they HAD to pay him and see if he could grow after his first year with dabs. he failed miserably.
I cannot understand how someone could watch 6 fucking years of this QB and still have such an attachment to him. it's so bizarre
They tried to get rid of him? Never saw it, please post.
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I don't know who these guys are but they have to be BBIers: "The Giants have a problem if Daniel Jones plays too well" Because then they have to extend a guy they don't want to.
That might be the single stupidest line in sports history. And that says a lot.
(Anti) Jones Derangement Syndrome taken to new heights.
Anyone who says "xxxx derangement syndrome" is automatically a fucking idiot. But to think that's the "single stupidest line" in sports history really drives home how fucking clueless you are.
Yeah, paying DJ would be a fucking disaster. Because he will NEVER be consistently good, even if he somehow catches lightning in a bottle and someone stick a horseshoe up his ass for a season resulting in like, idk, 4000 yards and 30 TDs (not even crazy numbers)
Sad thing is if he put up those numbers this team would want to retire his number on the spot. When in reality that is the level he needs to perform at to even try to justify that contract.
But I think there is a very good chance he's QB1 in 2025. As a fan, I completely misjudged how they viewed him and handled him this offseason.
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In comment 16514338 HBart said:
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I don't know who these guys are but they have to be BBIers: "The Giants have a problem if Daniel Jones plays too well" Because then they have to extend a guy they don't want to.
That might be the single stupidest line in sports history. And that says a lot.
(Anti) Jones Derangement Syndrome taken to new heights.
Anyone who says "xxxx derangement syndrome" is automatically a fucking idiot. But to think that's the "single stupidest line" in sports history really drives home how fucking clueless you are.
Yeah, paying DJ would be a fucking disaster. Because he will NEVER be consistently good, even if he somehow catches lightning in a bottle and someone stick a horseshoe up his ass for a season resulting in like, idk, 4000 yards and 30 TDs (not even crazy numbers)
Sad thing is if he put up those numbers this team would want to retire his number on the spot. When in reality that is the level he needs to perform at to even try to justify that contract.
But I think there is a very good chance he's QB1 in 2025. As a fan, I completely misjudged how they viewed him and handled him this offseason.
So then why did they try and draft Maye ?
Jones was the same cap hit this year whether starting or holding a clipboard. The money that went to sign Drew Lock could have been earmarked for the top QB available at #6.
That's an exit plan the Giants passed on and it's not at all clear a more attractive one is going to present itself for 2025.
The Jones contract at this point is an excuse for those who think Schoen was somehow hamstrung going into 2024; and, therefore, left no choice but to keep him in some manner.
I know the ship has sailed, but ideally the outcome would have been draft a QB in the lottery, cut Jones as a post-June 1st casualty, and bring in a Lock and/or keep DeVito as insurance.
+1.
She is excellent. I haven't listened to the vid yet but the ones slamming her it appears they've deliberately over-exaggerated her comments and tuned out anything potentially positive she might have said or implied - just so they can go on attack.
And some posters just can't understand the comment "if he does well it's not good . . ." They speak of mediocrity when they make this comment more than likely - as what many on here have tried to explain. But those that don't want to hear any complaints just continue to want to block their ears and lash out to anyone that doesn’t agree with their opinion that Jones deserved another year.
The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. All they hold is that DJ must go, so anyone must be better. There's no such thing as a reach if it means DJ is gone. If the grade isn't high enough for the front office, it's because the FO is head over heels in love with DJ. Or they can't evaluate. The Haters have one criterion: Not DJ = worth taking at 6.
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that it seems that many of the people who criticized Gettleman reaching for Jones, seem to want Schoen to reach for a QB, any QB, regardless of the grade the front office has on them.
The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. All they hold is that DJ must go, so anyone must be better. There's no such thing as a reach if it means DJ is gone. If the grade isn't high enough for the front office, it's because the FO is head over heels in love with DJ. Or they can't evaluate. The Haters have one criterion: Not DJ = worth taking at 6.
This is all a made up invention in your own mind. Keep the imagination flowing.
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In comment 16514768 KDavies said:
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that it seems that many of the people who criticized Gettleman reaching for Jones, seem to want Schoen to reach for a QB, any QB, regardless of the grade the front office has on them.
The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. All they hold is that DJ must go, so anyone must be better. There's no such thing as a reach if it means DJ is gone. If the grade isn't high enough for the front office, it's because the FO is head over heels in love with DJ. Or they can't evaluate. The Haters have one criterion: Not DJ = worth taking at 6.
This is all a made up invention in your own mind. Keep the imagination flowing.
It’s absolutely 100% true with posters here. They have flat out admitted it.
Great QBs are incredibly hard to find, even when the best ones want to come to your program. They leave soon if great. They need to build simple systems that the next guy up just goes in and plays.
Did you notice Tua got A LOT better once they added Waddle and Hill. Daboll is trying to do a similar thing here. I believe they think Jones will be an above average player in their system. IE a good system QB. Much easier to find than Aaron Rodger’s. They now have an elite playmaker in Nabers but everyone else is explosive. The system is designed to dink and dunk down the field and employ players with separation that create big play on their own.
I believe Daniel Jones VERY capable of throwing short passes at a high completion percentage. If the targets are explosive and excel at separation
I suspect Jones to do MUCH better than most. Making no guarantees but admit to excitement and hope. I see a plan. I don’t love Jones, I just think him capable of executing this offense. Their should be more space for his legs.
The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. All they hold is that DJ must go, so anyone must be better. There's no such thing as a reach if it means DJ is gone. If the grade isn't high enough for the front office, it's because the FO is head over heels in love with DJ. Or they can't evaluate. The Haters have one criterion: Not DJ = worth taking at 6.
Drawing a conclusion with five years of data isn't hate.
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that it seems that many of the people who criticized Gettleman reaching for Jones, seem to want Schoen to reach for a QB, any QB, regardless of the grade the front office has on them.
The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. All they hold is that DJ must go, so anyone must be better. There's no such thing as a reach if it means DJ is gone. If the grade isn't high enough for the front office, it's because the FO is head over heels in love with DJ. Or they can't evaluate. The Haters have one criterion: Not DJ = worth taking at 6.