NFT: Mets vs Phillies: Gm 2 –⚾ Buttó (R) vs Nola (R)⚾– 1:10 pm ET

14th out of 25 qualified SS's in fWAR and 17th out of 25 qualified in wRC+

that's not projection or word salads it's facts. I am talking this year, right now.

if that's so irreplaceable then everything is irreplaceable.

His fWAR is carried by his defense. If he doesn't turn his season around he's a less extreme Rey Ordonez (not as good defensively and not as bad offensively).

he had a lesser year (for him) year 1 as a Met, but was money after that until he was traded.

I think there is some revisionist history by you on how Beltran was treated. Fans did get on him year 1, understandably, but not really much after that. Even with 2006 ending the way it did.

Thing I think completely glossed over yesterday from Sandy…. Pete turned down 7 for 158 with a vested 8th year, asking for 9 or 10…. BEFORE Boras. So this narrative Pete was amendable to a “fair” deal but Boras is a maniac just doesn’t hold true in this case. 9-10 years would be a flat out disaster for the Mets

In comment 16515393 DanMetroMan said:

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Thing I think completely glossed over yesterday from Sandy…. Pete turned down 7 for 158 with a vested 8th year, asking for 9 or 10…. BEFORE Boras. So this narrative Pete was amendable to a “fair” deal but Boras is a maniac just doesn’t hold true in this case. 9-10 years would be a flat out disaster for the Mets

pete's prior agency had no experience with big deals. he was BY FAR their biggest client. i dont think they had done any big second contract, which was always troubling in the unknown. they were probably looking to get on the map with him, and clearly with him eventually moving to boras he too was looking to get himself on a map of some sort.

In comment 16515393 DanMetroMan said:

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Thing I think completely glossed over yesterday from Sandy…. Pete turned down 7 for 158 with a vested 8th year, asking for 9 or 10…. BEFORE Boras. So this narrative Pete was amendable to a “fair” deal but Boras is a maniac just doesn’t hold true in this case. 9-10 years would be a flat out disaster for the Mets

Pete's trade value has probably dropped a lot too.

I'd still try and trade him. Even now.

Alonso is a mediocre 1B.

In comment 16515309 pjcas18 said:

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14th out of 25 qualified SS's in fWAR and 17th out of 25 qualified in wRC+ that's not projection or word salads it's facts. I am talking this year, right now. if that's so irreplaceable then everything is irreplaceable. His fWAR is carried by his defense. If he doesn't turn his season around he's a less extreme Rey Ordonez (not as good defensively and not as bad offensively).

the season is just 25% over that's also a fact not a word salad or a projection. another fact - despite slump he's been second most valuable met behind nimmo so far.

here's a projection though - some of the guys ahead of him are playing above their norms and their histories tell us that probably won't continue. very few (if any) ahead of him are going to be below their norms like him and be on a 4 win pace.

as far as beltran here's a word salad of articles showing a less than glowing relationship with the fans/org even before the social media era:

2012 - St. Louis Cardinals’ Carlos Beltran tells Met fans: Time to get over 2006 and move on
https://www.nydailynews.com/2012/01/25/st-louis-cardinals-carlos-beltran-tells-met-fans-time-to-get-over-2006-and-move-on/

2014 - Mets Fans' Hatred of Carlos Beltran Has Never Been Justified
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2063163-mets-fans-hatred-of-carlos-beltran-has-never-been-justified

2015 - Why do Mets fans hate Carlos Beltran?
https://www.nj.com/mets/2015/09/why_do_mets_fans_hate_carlos_beltran.html

2017 - New York Mets 2006 Caught Looking: The Unfair Criticism of Carlos Beltran
https://elitesportsny.com/2017/10/19/11-year-grudge-looking-back-unfair-criticism-carlos-beltran/

2022 - The Complicated Legacy of Carlos Beltran
https://msabr.com/2022/03/26/the-complicated-legacy-of-carlos-beltran/

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So why with such an incredible career, one filled with awards, massive contracts, postseason heroics, would a player of such caliber be defined by a strikeout? Well, the short answer is lolMets, but I prefer longer answers. Despite their World Series appearance in 2015, the 2006 Mets were clearly the best Mets team this century. They won nine more games than any other team in the National League at 97-65, and were seen as a clear favorite to represent the National League in the Fall Classic that year. They swept the Dodgers in the NLDS, but somehow found themselves down 3-1 in a Game 7 at home against the 83-win St. Louis Cardinals. New York rallied to load the bases in the bottom of the 9th with their superstar up to bat. A base hit would tie the game, while an extra base hit would send the Mets to the World Series. Beltran is the $119 million man, while being arguably the best postseason performer in baseball. A storybook ending is set up; Beltran just needs to write the final page. And instead, he sat there. Beltran figured to have plenty of chances to redeem himself but it never quite materialized. The Mets had several consecutive patented September collapses, and as the Mets moved into Citi Field, Beltran’s body began to fail him. Gone were the days of a Gold Glove center fielder, as Beltran was forced to move to right field. He was a negative there too, but was still a very good hitter when on the field. From ages 34-39, he maintained a 126 OPS+. Beltran was not a well-liked Met, he was seen as “soft” and “disinterested”, and seemed to only wanted to do things his way. In Beltran’s seven years with the Mets, he accumulated roughly 30 bWAR, but he was brought in to be the hero and he seemed to fall just short of that. Many of his criticisms are largely unfair, he was productive everywhere he went, but there was always that something missing; delivering his team to a title. Well technically Carlos Beltran does have a ring.

Beltran put up 26 fwar as a met in 6.5 seasons
Lindor is at 16.9 and counting, so he will probably catch him in year 6 or 7

Beltran won a lot after the Mets in better organizations. Lindor won a lot before the Mets in a better organization.

the way to become a better organization that wins more is to get more players like lindor and beltran, not fewer. and yet just like beltran there are fans on these very threads who have used the word 'hate' re lindor. it's like the yankee fans who 'hate' cashman even though he's basically the most successful gm ever. delusional.

and I don't want to get rid of him (I do want to get rid of Alonso though) but some fans have this strange thought in baseball where they value end of season games more than early season games.

April and May games count. At the end of the season, like was the case a couple years ago, where the team misses out on the division by a game or two or even the playoffs overall - why couldn't that have been an April or May win?

"eh, he's just a slow starter" is not ok and a shitty two months doesn't get wiped out by finishing well for three+ months when the pressure is mostly off because the team sucked so bad in the beginning of the season (not saying that's the case yet, like it was last year).

He needs to be better.

In comment 16515530 pjcas18 said:

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and I don't want to get rid of him (I do want to get rid of Alonso though) but some fans have this strange thought in baseball where they value end of season games more than early season games. April and May games count. At the end of the season, like was the case a couple years ago, where the team misses out on the division by a game or two or even the playoffs overall - why couldn't that have been an April or May win? "eh, he's just a slow starter" is not ok and a shitty two months doesn't get wiped out by finishing well for three+ months when the pressure is mostly off because the team sucked so bad in the beginning of the season (not saying that's the case yet, like it was last year). He needs to be better.

it has nothing to do with games being worth more or less at any time of year, over 162 games everyone is going to have a bad streak at some point. lindor plays every game at a premium position and plays very good defense so he is contributing more than most. soto is the best hitter in the sport, on a stacked team playing well, off a roaring start -- and in the 2 weeks of may so far his ops is 759.

history tells us lindor probably will play better the rest of the way but his "bad" is still 2nd best player on the team. the way to get better is more "bad" that's above replacement level like him and less actual bad like the players who are playing below replacement level. but if finding players like him or better were so simple there wouldnt be as many FA and top 50 prospect busts as there are.

there are fewer than a dozen players more productive than him in MLB since the time he came to the mets, as you'd imagine this is a list of guys that are tough to acquire:

was Rosario. He signed for less than Wendle did.

In comment 16515570 KDavies said:

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was Rosario. He signed for less than Wendle did.

he passed on more money from other teams and chose tampa for playing time.

the mets didnt have playing time to offer him.

luck explaining this one.

The Mets are tied for 1st place in road wRC+ (116)
The Mets are 24th in home wRC+ (85)

But the Mets are 14th in home FIP, and an identical 14th in road FIP

So why exactly is it, that the Mets hitters have hit well on the road, terrible at home, and yet the pitchers (while better at home) do not have such a massive split?

Also worth nothing Pete Alonso has a 150 wRC+ at home, 77 on the road

In comment 16515576 DanMetroMan said:

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luck explaining this one. The Mets are tied for 1st place in road wRC+ (116) The Mets are 24th in home wRC+ (85) But the Mets are 14th in home FIP, and an identical 14th in road FIP So why exactly is it, that the Mets hitters have hit well on the road, terrible at home, and yet the pitchers (while better at home) do not have such a massive split? Also worth nothing Pete Alonso has a 150 wRC+ at home, 77 on the road

probably mostly noise. the numbers get inflated by the outlier games so probably just means their 2 or 3 biggest blowout wins were road games and if we took those out, everything is probably close.

retrospective, nor is it really relevant. I'm talking this year. Right now.

Lindor is not playing like the 12th best (or whatever number you claim) player in MLB during his Mets tenure.

He is playing the 14th ranked out of 25 SS's who have played enough games to qualify being ranked.

That's not good enough.

this is going in circles. I'm not interested in an inane discussion.

In comment 16515576 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

luck explaining this one. The Mets are tied for 1st place in road wRC+ (116) The Mets are 24th in home wRC+ (85) But the Mets are 14th in home FIP, and an identical 14th in road FIP So why exactly is it, that the Mets hitters have hit well on the road, terrible at home, and yet the pitchers (while better at home) do not have such a massive split? Also worth nothing Pete Alonso has a 150 wRC+ at home, 77 on the road

just looked it up, 4 games this year 8 runs or more, 3 were road games, 1 of them the 16 run game in atlanta. if we took out that 1 game, id guess the numbers look closer.

In comment 16515590 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 16515576 DanMetroMan said: Quote: luck explaining this one. The Mets are tied for 1st place in road wRC+ (116) The Mets are 24th in home wRC+ (85) But the Mets are 14th in home FIP, and an identical 14th in road FIP So why exactly is it, that the Mets hitters have hit well on the road, terrible at home, and yet the pitchers (while better at home) do not have such a massive split? Also worth nothing Pete Alonso has a 150 wRC+ at home, 77 on the road just looked it up, 4 games this year 8 runs or more, 3 were road games, 1 of them the 16 run game in atlanta. if we took out that 1 game, id guess the numbers look closer.

Brandon Nimmo 189 road wRC+
Brandon Nimmo 89 home wRC+

Jeff McNeil 143 road wRC+
Jeff McNeil 44 wRC+

Francisco Lindor 119 road wRC+
Francisco Lindor 70 home wRC+

Marte 114 road/85 home

The Mets BABIP at home is .244 (29th in the league), road it's 8th (.308)

Mets road ISO is 8th (.152)
Mets home ISO is 27th (.117)

He wasn’t good last year and has continued this year.

Since Citi opened haven't we historically been hitting better on road than home? I could be misremembering but I think this is normal but maybe with not that large of a delta. I remember an article that explained it was almost a mystery why they hit worse at home.

In comment 16515617 Metnut said:

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He wasn’t good last year and has continued this year.

If you want to be optimistic his second half numbers last season were nearly identical to his career marks.

career .298/.361/.438-.799, second half 2023 ..291/.337/.438-.775.Career 114 wRC+ .346 wOBA second half 115 wRC .336 wOBA

In comment 16515619 GF1080 said:

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Since Citi opened haven't we historically been hitting better on road than home? I could be misremembering but I think this is normal but maybe with not that large of a delta. I remember an article that explained it was almost a mystery why they hit worse at home.

That was indeed the case... but then that ceased being the case around 2019. 2019-14th, 2020 3rd, 2021 16th, 2022 7th, last season back to bottom of the league (29th)

I'm going to put on my tin foil hat and suggest the new scoreboard has some impact here.

he is still squaring balls up and he has always been lower EV but he seems to be k'ing more and he didnt have a lot of power he could lose.

xbh's are pacing down even compared to last year.

Will Sammon
@WillSammon
The Mets announced their flurry of moves:

José Buttó optioned to Triple-A Syracuse.

RHP Yohan Ramírez and INF Joey Wendle have been designated for assignment.

RHP Grant Hartwig, LHP Joey Lucchesi and Mark Vientos recalled from Triple-A Syracuse.

In comment 16515745 DanMetroMan said:

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Will Sammon @WillSammon The Mets announced their flurry of moves: José Buttó optioned to Triple-A Syracuse. RHP Yohan Ramírez and INF Joey Wendle have been designated for assignment. RHP Grant Hartwig, LHP Joey Lucchesi and Mark Vientos recalled from Triple-A Syracuse.

I have a feeling Mets will be busy around the trade deadline. Might as well play the kids, see what they have.

one of the biggest questions is do they trade Diaz? Still one of the better closers in the game, but not at the level he was before injury. If they think he doesn't get back to that level, do the Mets take the opportunity to trade him if they can get a good return?

In comment 16515914 KDavies said:

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one of the biggest questions is do they trade Diaz? Still one of the better closers in the game, but not at the level he was before injury. If they think he doesn't get back to that level, do the Mets take the opportunity to trade him if they can get a good return?

i think they would trade anyone who can get them back a prospect/player they really like.

Reed Garrett being as good as he is and under cheap control could be the ultimate sell high for what would have seemed like a shockingly good return a few months ago.

if you browse what the trading teams received in the olsen and iglesias trades, those were pu pu platters.

Mike Puma
@NYPost_Mets
Drew Smith felt a “pinch” in the back of his shoulder playing catch yesterday, according to Carlos Mendoza, so the Mets are playing it cautiously with him before he is potentially activated.

-Megill to start Sunday or Monday

Tim Healey
@timbhealey
Brooks Raley is shut down for two weeks and then the Mets will see what will happen, Carlos Mendoza said. No elbow surgery, at least for now.

In comment 16514998 Eric on Li said:

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In comment 16514987 DanMetroMan said: Quote: Confirms it’s a time share at 3B. I guess Baty is the emergency backup SS/2B? id think mcneil is emergency SS, and yeah i guess baty emergency 2b?

Baty is the backup SS/2b per Mendoza

Tim Britton
@TimBritton
Brett Baty is the backup 2B/SS by the way.

Mike Puma
@NYPost_Mets
With the Mets lacking middle infield depth following Joey Wendle’s DFA Brett Baty will receive pregame work at second base and shortstop.

In comment 16516075 DanMetroMan said:

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Mike Puma @NYPost_Mets With the Mets lacking middle infield depth following Joey Wendle’s DFA Brett Baty will receive pregame work at second base and shortstop.

well, wendle's defense looked pretty crappy, so if we think about it like baty swapping for wendle, there is probably a lot less impact than the fear would be "not carrying a backup IF".

Wendle played a bad 3rd and a not much better 2b.

give mets a lot of credit here, they made a creative decision at the right time.

to even things out bc sometimes we all lose a little time perspective - going into the 5/3 game he hit 2 homers in TB, he was hitting .250. not great but not awful. after the 2 homers he was hitting .271 with a 725 ops.

he got hits each of the next 2 games, so on May 5 his BA was .269 with a 714 ops.

he only has 1 hit and 0 walks in the 10 days since then, so everything cratered. but up until these 10 days the offense was playable and the defense quite good. DFA'ing Wendle is the right move.