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Some early roster number dilemmas

Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/14/2024 3:41 pm
The roster in September will be 53.

If you take away the PK, P, and LS, that leaves you with 50.

Questionable assumption, but let's assume 25 on offense and 25 on defense.

How many are you keeping at each position?

I have my own preliminary thoughts, but this is a really tough exercise given who is on the roster right now.

New York Giants Depth Chart - ( New Window )
One of the silver linings of having weak talent  
gersh : 5/14/2024 3:42 pm : link
Is I don't get much anxiety about the bottom of the roster decisions.
Every year I think.....We can't cut that person or put that person on  
GiantBlue : 5/14/2024 3:49 pm : link
the practice squad.......and then we find out only 20 or so players at the top of the roster are keepers.

At this point, let them make the decision and we go with it. I am not going to agnonize over it like I used.
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/14/2024 3:59 pm : link
Last year, the initial roster was:

6 DLs
9 LBs
11 DBs

2 QBs
4 RBs
6 WRs
3 TEs
9 OLs
RE: Every year I think.....We can't cut that person or put that person on  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/14/2024 4:00 pm : link
In comment 16514762 GiantBlue said:
Quote:
the practice squad.......and then we find out only 20 or so players at the top of the roster are keepers.

At this point, let them make the decision and we go with it. I am not going to agnonize over it like I used.


Probably smart.

What makes this really hard is they have a number of special teams exclusive players who may or may not make it.
Minimums?  
BillT : 5/14/2024 4:00 pm : link
QB 2
RB 3
TE 3
WR 6
OL 9
23 on offense

DL 6
LB/EDGE 8
DB 10
24 on defense

That leaves 3. I’d probably add a 9th LB for ST. Maybe a 10th OL and a 4th TE.
My best guess.
The bright side is  
logman : 5/14/2024 4:01 pm : link
that maybe they'll be cutting decent players that have a chance to land elsewhere more than in the past decade or so, instead of reclaiming from other team's cuts.
RE: ...  
KDavies : 5/14/2024 4:03 pm : link
In comment 16514771 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Last year, the initial roster was:

6 DLs
9 LBs
11 DBs

2 QBs
4 RBs
6 WRs
3 TEs
9 OLs


Initial opinion looking at the depth chart is I expect things pretty similar. Perhaps a 3rd QB, and only 3 RBs. Keep a couple RB on the practice squad.
53  
Blue Dog : 5/14/2024 4:04 pm : link
Offense - 25
-QB(3): Daniel Jones, Drew Lock , Tommy DeVito
-RB(3): Devin Singletary, Eric Gray, Tyrone Tracy Jr.
-TE(3): Daniel Bellinger, Theo Johnson , Jack Stoll
-WR1(3): Malik Nabers, Jalin Hyatt, Miles Boykin,
-WR2(2): Darius Slayton, Allen Robinson
-Slot(2): Wan'Dale Robinson, Gunner Olszewski
-LT(2): Andrew Thomas, Matt Nelson
-LG(2): Jon Runyan, Joshua Ezeudu
-C(2): John Michael Schmitz, Austin Schlottmann
-RG(2): Jermaine Eluemunor, Aaron Stinnie
-RT(1): Evan Neal

Defense - 25
-DL(2): Jordan Phillips, D.J. Davidson
-DL(2): Dexter Lawrence, Jordon Riley
-DL(1): Rakeem Nunez-Roches
-OLB(2): Brian Burns, Azeez Ojulari
-OLB(2): Kayvon Thibodeaux, Boogie Basham
-MLB(2): Bobby Okereke, Matthew Adams
-WLB(3): Micah McFadden, Isaiah Simmons, Darius Muasau
-CB1(2): Deonte Banks, Tre Hawkins
-CB2(2): Cor'Dale Flott, Nick McCloud
-Slot(2): Andru Phillips, Darnay Holmes
-FS(2): Jason Pinnock, Jalen Mills
-SS(3): Tyler Nubin, Dane Belton, Gervarrius Owens

-K: Graham Gano
-P: Jamie Gillan
-LS: Casey Kreiter
If last year was any indication  
Chris684 : 5/14/2024 4:08 pm : link
We will likely cut about 3 guys who are very capable of helping us out at key positions, be it special teams, OL or WR.
I highly doubt they keep 3 QB's on the active roster  
BLUATHRT : 5/14/2024 4:12 pm : link
.
The interesting question(s)  
jvm52106 : 5/14/2024 4:15 pm : link
for me will be at the following positions:

CB- does A.Robinson make it back or is he done? If does make it back he provides inside/outside versatility and a bit more physicality than some.

RB- D. Singletary and Gray seem like locks and Tracy should be there so the question is do we keep Brightwell or look elsewhere and is there a FB we keep (like a small DT switching positions) over a RB?

WR- the top part of the group is set- sort of *.. WDR, Hyatt, Nabers, Slayton all there. Then Mckenzie, BFW(?), Hodgins, Robinson are all in play here.. ** saving some money might be the difference in who is kept and who is let go..

The trade deadline could see the Giants still on the back end of contention or right in the middle of WC contention and yet I think we are still going to move someone here. Slayton becomes the obvious choice as he has NO longer position with this team (money needed for others, younger players at the position and players at the position more easily found). I could see Slayton shipped to a KC or other such contender before the deadline.

I think the 3-25-25 is a fairly good expectation.

DL and OLB will be interesting to see how that shakes out.

KT-Ojulari-FOX (after that it gets sketchy).. But, if some others step up Ojulari could be trade bait at the deadline as well.
RE: 53  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/14/2024 4:16 pm : link
In comment 16514782 Blue Dog said:
Quote:
Offense - 25
-QB(3): Daniel Jones, Drew Lock , Tommy DeVito
-RB(3): Devin Singletary, Eric Gray, Tyrone Tracy Jr.
-TE(3): Daniel Bellinger, Theo Johnson , Jack Stoll
-WR1(3): Malik Nabers, Jalin Hyatt, Miles Boykin,
-WR2(2): Darius Slayton, Allen Robinson
-Slot(2): Wan'Dale Robinson, Gunner Olszewski
-LT(2): Andrew Thomas, Matt Nelson
-LG(2): Jon Runyan, Joshua Ezeudu
-C(2): John Michael Schmitz, Austin Schlottmann
-RG(2): Jermaine Eluemunor, Aaron Stinnie
-RT(1): Evan Neal

Defense - 25
-DL(2): Jordan Phillips, D.J. Davidson
-DL(2): Dexter Lawrence, Jordon Riley
-DL(1): Rakeem Nunez-Roches
-OLB(2): Brian Burns, Azeez Ojulari
-OLB(2): Kayvon Thibodeaux, Boogie Basham
-MLB(2): Bobby Okereke, Matthew Adams
-WLB(3): Micah McFadden, Isaiah Simmons, Darius Muasau
-CB1(2): Deonte Banks, Tre Hawkins
-CB2(2): Cor'Dale Flott, Nick McCloud
-Slot(2): Andru Phillips, Darnay Holmes
-FS(2): Jason Pinnock, Jalen Mills
-SS(3): Tyler Nubin, Dane Belton, Gervarrius Owens

-K: Graham Gano
-P: Jamie Gillan
-LS: Casey Kreiter


This is a really good guess.

Notes to consider:

- I could see them carrying four TEs.
- Both Isaiah's out at WR in your scenario in favor of ST players (realistic).
- Five DLs is a bit light.
- Adams over Beavers is another ST move.
- I don't think you have any UDFAs making it on 53.
i think the way to do this exercise is to take out locks and positions  
Eric on Li : 5/14/2024 4:22 pm : link
50 roster spots. for purposes of this exercise let's call these 15 locks on offense and 13 locks on defense:

jones / lock
singletary / tracy
nabers /hyatt /slayton / wandale
theo / bellinger
thomas/ neal /elumeanor / runyan / jms

burns / thibs / ojulari
lawrence / nacho
okereke / mcfadden
banks / flott / phillips
pinnock / nubin / belton

so that puts these 20 competing for ~10 spots on offense:

1 QB (devito, rourke)
1+ RB (gray, brightwell, corbin, miller)
1+ TE (waller, manhertz, stoll)
2+ WR (hodgins, robinson, mckenzie, olszewski, boykin)
4+ OL (stinnie, schlottman, nelson, ezeudu, mckethan, etc)

and these 20 competing for ~12 spots on defense:

1 DE (fox, basham)
3+ DL (phillips, djd, riley, horne, anderson, rogers)
3+ LB (coughlin, simmons, muasau, fox, beavers)
3+ CB (mccloud, hawkins, holmes, long, johnson)
1+ S (mills, owens)

obviously there will be some injuries too.
each team loses on average 2 players to IR each training camp.

offensive depth looks a lot better to me right now than defensive. if/when Waller retires, wouldn't mind seeing them put some money toward a couple of depth signings in the DL/DB groups.
RE: RE: 53  
Blue Dog : 5/14/2024 4:29 pm : link
In comment 16514796 Eric from BBI said:

This is a really good guess.

Notes to consider:

- I could see them carrying four TEs.
- Both Isaiah's out at WR in your scenario in favor of ST players (realistic).
- Five DLs is a bit light.
- Adams over Beavers is another ST move.
- I don't think you have any UDFAs making it on 53. [/quote]

-I only see four if Waller doesn't retire.
-Hodgins over Robinson wouldn't surprise me either.
-McKenzie seems like the odd man out to me with the other adds.
-Who do you cut to keep a 6th? I could see Ryder Anderson out of the current group. If they added a veteran I would be more inclined to go 6.
-No UDFAs I don't like either. Casey Rogers if any for now like Ryder.
I'm interested to see if all 24 JS draft picks make it  
UberAlias : 5/14/2024 4:32 pm : link
This is key to me because them plus small handful of the 13 or so FAs need to be the core of this team.

There are also 9 hold overs from DG. I expect that number to much smaller by week 1.

Also, we know that the original 53 is almost never the final list. There are always going to be tweaks as cuts come in.
Secondary, OLine,  
UberAlias : 5/14/2024 4:34 pm : link
WRs, and LBs have been completely revamped.
RE: I highly doubt they keep 3 QB's on the active roster  
KDavies : 5/14/2024 4:34 pm : link
In comment 16514792 BLUATHRT said:
Quote:
.


Giants typically don't have 3 QBs on the 53 (they will only have 2 active), but they might this season.

First, Jones is an injury risk and could be cut before the '25 season.

Second, Lock is on a one year deal. He could be cut during the season, as it could make the difference between the Giants getting a 3rd/4th round comp pick or a 7th depending on how things shake out.

Third, they may like DeVito and/or Rourke as at least a cheap backup going forward. They may not want to risk losing one of them on the practice squad, particularly when Jones/Lock may not be on the Giants by the '25 season
I agree KDavies  
UberAlias : 5/14/2024 4:38 pm : link
I think Rourke, Jones, and Lock are all on the 53.
I think  
Pete in MD : 5/14/2024 4:50 pm : link
Manhertz has a shot. He was brought in specifically to help Neal.
Making things more confusing is...  
Capisce : 5/14/2024 4:50 pm : link
The number of 'fringe' players we brought in in FA... Exhibit A- We have A LOT of WRs... BFW got a big check as a UDFA last year. You would think Slayton and Hodgins have won a place in the hearts of the staff... But now they bring in Robinson... Is he just a camp mentor? Gunner was great on specials, but how many WRs do you keep on the roster? Maybe 7...But after the top 3... Everyone else is a ?
I think people have a pretty  
section125 : 5/14/2024 4:50 pm : link
good handle on this.

One player I will not go with is Boogie Basham. He is too slow. I believe they will get another OLB/ER younger with more speed. It is clear where this staff wants to go and that is youth with speed.

Last year I predicted Isaiah Hodgins would be let go and was totally wrong, although he barely saw the field. I will revisit that prediction and once again say Hodgins will not make the final 53.
RE: I think people have a pretty  
Blue Dog : 5/14/2024 4:59 pm : link
In comment 16514840 section125 said:
Quote:
good handle on this.

One player I will not go with is Boogie Basham. He is too slow. I believe they will get another OLB/ER younger with more speed. It is clear where this staff wants to go and that is youth with speed.

Last year I predicted Isaiah Hodgins would be let go and was totally wrong, although he barely saw the field. I will revisit that prediction and once again say Hodgins will not make the final 53.


I think it was Paul Dottino who suggested he move to the 3 tech role and away from OLB because his pass rushing is weak and he did it a bit in college.
If we are going into the season  
CaLLaHaN : 5/14/2024 6:05 pm : link
With Evan Neal as our only Right Tackle

We will be picking near the top once again.

How many times to we have to see him fail before we go in a different direction.
RE: RE: I think people have a pretty  
section125 : 5/14/2024 6:15 pm : link
In comment 16514847 Blue Dog said:
Quote:
In comment 16514840 section125 said:


Quote:


good handle on this.

One player I will not go with is Boogie Basham. He is too slow. I believe they will get another OLB/ER younger with more speed. It is clear where this staff wants to go and that is youth with speed.

Last year I predicted Isaiah Hodgins would be let go and was totally wrong, although he barely saw the field. I will revisit that prediction and once again say Hodgins will not make the final 53.



I think it was Paul Dottino who suggested he move to the 3 tech role and away from OLB because his pass rushing is weak and he did it a bit in college.


I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but if he is bad as pass rush outside, how does he become pass rush inside that they are looking for. I just never thought anything about him was worth keeping.
Whatever Daboll and his staff decide  
JoeyBigBlue : 5/14/2024 6:38 pm : link
I just hope we have more defined roles than last year. Who are the starters? Who are their back ups? Who is the swing tackle? Who is the 3rd blocking TE? We don’t need 5 receivers on the team that don’t play special teams. It was just a ton of fuckups on the roster last season with no defined roles.
RE: If we are going into the season  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/14/2024 6:41 pm : link
In comment 16514887 CaLLaHaN said:
Quote:
With Evan Neal as our only Right Tackle

We will be picking near the top once again.

How many times to we have to see him fail before we go in a different direction.


Except he's not the only right tackle who will make the team.
RE: If we are going into the season  
Angel Eyes : 5/14/2024 6:44 pm : link
In comment 16514887 CaLLaHaN said:
Quote:
With Evan Neal as our only Right Tackle

We will be picking near the top once again.

How many times to we have to see him fail before we go in a different direction.

I'd say it in reverse; there's options at RT should Neal flop. The real problem is if Thomas goes down, as shown last year (e.g. Josh Ezeudu playing out of position at LT).

Meanwhile as far as the defense is concerned, I'm hoping against hope that the 2-man line won't be our go-to front.
Blue Dog  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/14/2024 6:45 pm : link
The DL is hard to predict right now because we have more run defenders than pass rushers.

I do think aside from Lawrence, that Nunez-Roches, Phillips, Riley, and Davidson are likely to make it barring injury. But in a perfect world, someone else flashes as a penetrating DL, be it Rogers, Chatman, Anderson, or maybe someone not even on the roster. Obviously they are all PS candidates too so you could be right that the simply have 5 on the 53 and put 2-3 on the PS.

Angel Eyes  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/14/2024 6:45 pm : link
Eluemunor has experience at both LT and RT. So does Matt Nelson.
It’s generally first an exercise of who’s your active 46  
Jaenyg : 5/14/2024 6:49 pm : link
What 46 do you need to to compete on any given Sunday. How many QBs, RBs, etc. You have to have enough capable bodies to insure against injury obviously.

What adds a little complexity to this is nuanced positions. Like 3rd down back, short yardage back, end line blocking TE, etc. That’s why teams covet versatility because it means you don’t have to waste a roster spot on one guy who only fills a nuanced position. But when determining the 46, all those nuanced positions need to be accounted for including insurance.

What adds even more complexity is all STs (kickoff, punt, FG). You have to have bodies for all those different assignments. So every year when we argue about carrying 5 or 6 or 7 WRs, or 3 or 4 RB, etc, the determining factor is generally STs. For example, you may just need 3 RBs for your 46 (assuming you have enough guys who can be a feature back, 3rd down back, short yardage, etc) but you end up with 4 on your 46 because the 4th guy covers multiple ST assignments.

Bridging that 46 to 53 often is filled with some non-contributors that teams can’t waive. For example, we could come out of camp and Dru Phillips may have demonstrated that he is completely lost and not ready for the NFL yet. But he’s getting a roster spot. That’s an obvious example but this can happen with late round picks and UDFAs with high guarantees if teams don’t want to risk the waiver process.

In summary…it’s complicated lol.
RE: It’s generally first an exercise of who’s your active 46  
Eric on Li : 5/14/2024 7:06 pm : link
In comment 16514929 Jaenyg said:
Quote:
What 46 do you need to to compete on any given Sunday. How many QBs, RBs, etc. You have to have enough capable bodies to insure against injury obviously.

What adds a little complexity to this is nuanced positions. Like 3rd down back, short yardage back, end line blocking TE, etc. That’s why teams covet versatility because it means you don’t have to waste a roster spot on one guy who only fills a nuanced position. But when determining the 46, all those nuanced positions need to be accounted for including insurance.

What adds even more complexity is all STs (kickoff, punt, FG). You have to have bodies for all those different assignments. So every year when we argue about carrying 5 or 6 or 7 WRs, or 3 or 4 RB, etc, the determining factor is generally STs. For example, you may just need 3 RBs for your 46 (assuming you have enough guys who can be a feature back, 3rd down back, short yardage, etc) but you end up with 4 on your 46 because the 4th guy covers multiple ST assignments.

Bridging that 46 to 53 often is filled with some non-contributors that teams can’t waive. For example, we could come out of camp and Dru Phillips may have demonstrated that he is completely lost and not ready for the NFL yet. But he’s getting a roster spot. That’s an obvious example but this can happen with late round picks and UDFAs with high guarantees if teams don’t want to risk the waiver process.

In summary…it’s complicated lol.


this is correct.

i think it's really 3 rosters.

1. starters - like I said above there are I think there are about 28 roster locks, all being the projected starters or heavy rotation sub package players, one is the backup QB (Lock).

2. key backups/depth - these are guys like Hodgins, Simmons, J. Phillips, McCloud, Mills, probably at least one of DJD/Riley and maybe both. whoever the 3rd OT and 4th IOL are. the 3rd TE. these are players who will likely get starts over the season so you want them to have starting experience. You probably need at least 1 guy with starter experience like this backing up all positions. I count about 21 players beyond the 28 roster locks who have started 10+ NFL games.

3. secondary depth/special teamers - this is where there will be decisions with return/coverage games in mind. Is Tyrone Tracy the kick return? does that activate him over Gray? Do you keep a 4th TE (like Stoll) who is good on ST or a 5th S? Gunner vs. McKenzie for last WR. Is Hawkins or Long a better gunner? Coughlin vs. Muasau vs. Beavers?
RE: Blue Dog  
Blue Dog : 5/14/2024 8:11 pm : link
In comment 16514922 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
The DL is hard to predict right now because we have more run defenders than pass rushers.

I do think aside from Lawrence, that Nunez-Roches, Phillips, Riley, and Davidson are likely to make it barring injury. But in a perfect world, someone else flashes as a penetrating DL, be it Rogers, Chatman, Anderson, or maybe someone not even on the roster. Obviously they are all PS candidates too so you could be right that the simply have 5 on the 53 and put 2-3 on the PS.


DL feels like the spot where we'd see a late addition. They added the two UDFAs and we'll see what's what with Anderson have at camp and preseason and if no one emerges I think they keep trying to add someone, but they give them a shot first.
I like that the math points out some tough choices  
George from PA : 5/14/2024 9:02 pm : link
Which is a good thing.


But the factor, no one is counting is injuries.....which will unfortunately....show its lousy head along the way
RE: I like that the math points out some tough choices  
section125 : 5/14/2024 9:42 pm : link
In comment 16515085 George from PA said:
Quote:
Which is a good thing.


But the factor, no one is counting is injuries.....which will unfortunately....show its lousy head along the way


Nobody is counting it because no one has a clue where the injuries would be. So that is why there are options all over the roster. Most of these predict the roster threads are hopeful of the best outcome.
RE: I like that the math points out some tough choices  
Blue Dog : 5/14/2024 10:15 pm : link
In comment 16515085 George from PA said:
Quote:
Which is a good thing.


But the factor, no one is counting is injuries.....which will unfortunately....show its lousy head along the way


Can't have any discussion or roster analysis if you just say "wait and see". No one could have predicted Xavier McKinney was going to go to IR 8 days before the first game his rookie year and Logan Ryan would be signed and end up playing 60% of the snaps week 1 just days after being signed a $7.5M deal and switching from CB to S.
Is the new rule that QB3 is a 54 player  
Matt M. : 5/14/2024 10:51 pm : link
Or is he part of the 53, but not counting toward the inactives?
Of Jones is healthy  
LauderdaleMatty : 5/14/2024 10:59 pm : link
DeVito goes to the PS. He's easily replaceable. Let's not waste a spot on him please. No issue keeping him on the PS but no one is scooping him up to be on Anna rice Roster unless a team loses like 3 Qbs
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