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Giants cap space

GFAN52 : 5/15/2024 10:01 am
Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
The Giants have $6M in cap space. Their draft class will cost roughly $6M on the cap. Examining their avenues to create space. Also, digging into the incentives for Drew Lock and Devin Singletary, and the different kind of roster bonus the Giants used heavily this offseason: https://nytimes.com/athletic/5493547/2024/05/15/new-york-giants-salary-cap-space/



NYGfaninCLT
@clt_ny
·
45m
The if and when of Waller retiring is pivotal.

$11m+ post-June 1…


Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
·
32m
Yeah, and I don't think this has been some deliberate stall. But now that we're two weeks away, it would make sense to just delay the decision until after June 1, unless they don't want to push any money into 2025.
Don't lose Sleep over This  
varco : 5/15/2024 10:23 am : link
I'm sure they have this figured out and will do what is needed to provide space. Waller will or won't retire, whenever. Certain there's a good reason for the delay - possibly the divorce settlement.
Right - The Giants need Wallers money to pay in season expenses  
ZogZerg : 5/15/2024 10:39 am : link
Some here are confused thinking they can use Waller's $$ to sign a higher cost FA.
I do not understand why we are  
SJGiant : 5/15/2024 10:42 am : link
Discussing the June 1 wait to release a post June 1 cut. I thought each team can designate up to two post June 1 cuts prior to June 1. I didn’t think the Giants used any of these designations yet.
Over the Cap has Giants dead last of 32 teams with $1.1M  
shyster : 5/15/2024 10:54 am : link
in current cap space, and negative space after signing draft class.

There will be contract restructures coming.
otc - ( New Window )
RE: Over the Cap has Giants dead last of 32 teams with $1.1M  
christian : 5/15/2024 11:03 am : link
In comment 16515612 shyster said:
Quote:
in current cap space, and negative space after signing draft class.

There will be contract restructures coming. otc - ( New Window )


I think it's Thomas, what's your guess?
RE: I do not understand why we are  
Optimus-NY : 5/15/2024 11:04 am : link
In comment 16515591 SJGiant said:
Quote:
Discussing the June 1 wait to release a post June 1 cut. I thought each team can designate up to two post June 1 cuts prior to June 1. I didn’t think the Giants used any of these designations yet.



Yes, but even if you do so, the cap space that is freed up does not hit the books until June 2nd (18 more days).
RE: RE: Over the Cap has Giants dead last of 32 teams with $1.1M  
Optimus-NY : 5/15/2024 11:05 am : link
In comment 16515641 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16515612 shyster said:


Quote:


in current cap space, and negative space after signing draft class.

There will be contract restructures coming. otc - ( New Window )



I think it's Thomas, what's your guess?


Gano needs to take a pay cut.
Schoen has shown himself to be conservative regarding the cap  
BillT : 5/15/2024 11:09 am : link
We have repeatedly seen the Giants with a very low cap number. Schoen doesn't react until he has to. And the current OTC number likely reflects the draft signings so far.
I've never been particularly knowledgeable about cap space, so  
Marty in Albany : 5/15/2024 11:17 am : link
I have some questions:

Is lack of cap space indicative of mismanagement (dumb), similar to bouncing a check, or is it indicative of playing things very close in order to take the fullest advantage of every dollar that is available (smart)?

As the Giants are frequently on the low end of cap room spectrum, have there been instances where lack of cap space has prevented the Giants from keeping players whom they wanted to keep, or prevented the Giants from acquiring players who were reasonably available?

Thanks in advance.

RE: RE: Over the Cap has Giants dead last of 32 teams with $1.1M  
shyster : 5/15/2024 11:23 am : link
In comment 16515641 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16515612 shyster said:


Quote:


in current cap space, and negative space after signing draft class.

There will be contract restructures coming. otc - ( New Window )



I think it's Thomas, what's your guess?


Wouldn't surprise me at all.
Marty  
BillT : 5/15/2024 11:29 am : link
As I said above Schoen does play the cap close to the vest. We are also coming out of a period of cap issues created by the previous regime. Schoen certainly was limited in signing and retaining players over his first couple of years. It’s getting better now as the Burns contract shows.
RE: Schoen has shown himself to be conservative regarding the cap  
christian : 5/15/2024 11:32 am : link
In comment 16515661 BillT said:
Quote:
We have repeatedly seen the Giants with a very low cap number. Schoen doesn't react until he has to. And the current OTC number likely reflects the draft signings so far.


The -4.6M is reflective of the top 51 including the draft pool.

If history is any indication, the Giants will eventually need to create ~15M in space to get under the cap and operate.

11.6M might come by way of designated Darren Waller a post-June 1 cut.
RE: I've never been particularly knowledgeable about cap space, so  
shyster : 5/15/2024 11:36 am : link
In comment 16515681 Marty in Albany said:
Quote:
I have some questions:

Is lack of cap space indicative of mismanagement (dumb), similar to bouncing a check, or is it indicative of playing things very close in order to take the fullest advantage of every dollar that is available (smart)?

As the Giants are frequently on the low end of cap room spectrum, have there been instances where lack of cap space has prevented the Giants from keeping players whom they wanted to keep, or prevented the Giants from acquiring players who were reasonably available?

Thanks in advance.


Winning excuses everything. If you are a seriously contending team and up against the cap, it's not an indication of doing anything wrong.

If you are a bad team up against the cap every year, it's a sign of impatience and lack of realism about where you are.

Brian Burns may have a good year and may help the Giants win a game or two they wouldn't otherwise. But the alternative was to keep that high second round draft pick, draft a defensive starter (e.g., a legit starting outside CB) and be in a better cap position going forward.

Cap space doesn't disappear if you don't use it; it can be rolled over to a season where you might realistically seriously contend and have "earned" the right to splurge on that high cost player.
RE: RE: Over the Cap has Giants dead last of 32 teams with $1.1M  
BillT : 5/15/2024 11:38 am : link
In comment 16515641 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16515612 shyster said:


Quote:


in current cap space, and negative space after signing draft class.

There will be contract restructures coming. otc - ( New Window )



I think it's Thomas, what's your guess?

Waller’s retirement either pre or post June 1 would probably create enough cap space for the season. They’ll wait until that resolves before they do anything else.
RE: RE: Schoen has shown himself to be conservative regarding the cap  
BillT : 5/15/2024 11:50 am : link
In comment 16515708 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16515661 BillT said:


Quote:


We have repeatedly seen the Giants with a very low cap number. Schoen doesn't react until he has to. And the current OTC number likely reflects the draft signings so far.



The -4.6M is reflective of the top 51 including the draft pool.

If history is any indication, the Giants will eventually need to create ~15M in space to get under the cap and operate.

11.6M might come by way of designated Darren Waller a post-June 1 cut.

Yes and as you say the top draft choices are part of that calculation. I think $15m sounds a bit high but that’s possible. But it’s not like Schoen doesn’t know all this as well. He’s got a plan as he’s shown before.
Schoen made a bad decision  
Rudy5757 : 5/15/2024 6:27 pm : link
Not restructuring Thomas when he could have gotten an extra $4-5 mil back in March. He is going to have to restructure him anyway. There are not a lot of contracts for the Giants to restructure.

I do think Waller is done, so there will be some savings there.
The big question is whether the Giants will have to  
Darwinian : 5/15/2024 6:49 pm : link
restructure Jones' deal to open up operational cap space.
 
christian : 5/15/2024 10:11 pm : link
The Giants need to create about 6.8M in cap space minimum to 1) fit players 52 and 53 2) be under the 53 man cap. And that's if no one is on PUP or IR by the end of August. They then need to create room to operate and keep a practice squad.

So I think they'll conservatively need to move 15M that's on the books for 2024 either off or into future years.
 
christian : 5/15/2024 10:13 pm : link
As far as who - the Giants have a number of contracts they can restructure: Thomas, Lawrence, Burns, Okereke, Jones, Waller all have enough salary to convert to bonus and hit their number.
RE: Schoen made a bad decision  
Blue Dog : 5/16/2024 2:47 am : link
In comment 16516133 Rudy5757 said:
Quote:
Not restructuring Thomas when he could have gotten an extra $4-5 mil back in March. He is going to have to restructure him anyway. There are not a lot of contracts for the Giants to restructure.

I do think Waller is done, so there will be some savings there.


He still can restructure Thomas whenever he needs.
RE: Schoen made a bad decision  
DefenseWins : 5/16/2024 6:23 am : link
In comment 16516133 Rudy5757 said:
Quote:
Not restructuring Thomas when he could have gotten an extra $4-5 mil back in March.


So you are suggesting that he never tried. Were you in the room? He is not going to announce that he had discussions with Thomas' representative but could not get the deal done back then.
RE: RE: Schoen made a bad decision  
section125 : 5/16/2024 7:10 am : link
In comment 16516348 DefenseWins said:
Quote:
In comment 16516133 Rudy5757 said:


Quote:


Not restructuring Thomas when he could have gotten an extra $4-5 mil back in March.



So you are suggesting that he never tried. Were you in the room? He is not going to announce that he had discussions with Thomas' representative but could not get the deal done back then.


He does not have to try. He just does it, no permission needed.

But to Rudy, Schoen didn't make a mistake. He chose not to do it. He does not like pushing money down the road. Just two schools of thought.
RE: RE: RE: Schoen made a bad decision  
shyster : 5/16/2024 8:23 am : link
In comment 16516357 section125 said:
Quote:


He does not have to try. He just does it, no permission needed.

But to Rudy, Schoen didn't make a mistake. He chose not to do it. He does not like pushing money down the road. Just two schools of thought.


Schoen has pushed money down the road on Dexter Lawrence (twice), Daniel Jones, Bobby Okereke and Darren Waller.

By trading a premium draft pick for Brian Burns, he knew he was creating a situation that would require more kicking of the can.

Schoen has shown he doesn't like restructuring players he knows or suspects he doesn't want to keep around beyond the current year. But that's the most one can say.
 
christian : 5/16/2024 8:50 am : link
And even then he signed Taylor to a contract with a void year, and restructured void years with Williams and Jackson to free up space.

The evidence of good resource allocation and accounting is fielding a good team. The period of time where you have the highest level of certainty on your needs is the current year. So it's perfectly logical to prioritize this year, at the expense of future years. When you get to next year, you can do the same.

The team with the most cap space and fewest des dollars doesn't win a prize.

I've come to truly believe because of the flexibilities allowed for in the CBA, the only substantive cap mistake you can make is paying a player too much guaranteed money. And if you have several players making too much guaranteed money, your talent level overall suffers.

If the performance to dollars ratio is mostly in your favor, moving the dollars around on the spreadsheet is the easy part.
 
christian : 5/16/2024 8:51 am : link
*Fewest dead dollars*
RE: …  
shyster : 5/16/2024 9:21 am : link
In comment 16516399 christian said:
Quote:
So it's perfectly logical to prioritize this year, at the expense of future years. When you get to next year, you can do the same.



With this, I don't agree. For a bad team with a lot of holes, filling one of those holes, and your cap space, with an expensive player on the market isn't the way to go, particularly when you give up a premium draft pick in the process.

You're still not going to be a contender in that season; the space you could have rolled over to the following season is gone; and the player you acquired gets another year older.
 
christian : 5/16/2024 9:56 am : link
Shyster, I agree on that specific example, that's where the cost/benefit phase comes in.

If you're going to make a big, multi-year investment you have to be comfortable projecting (as comfortable as projections can be in a dangerous game) the player will play the right amount of good years for the money.

What I'm more talking about is an A'shawn Robinson deal last year, where they borrowed 2.1M from 2024, to add him in 2023. The compensation for the year was right, it just needed to be accounted for over two.
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