The national media is lumping NYG in with the Panthers as the bottom feeders of the league. As I've said, Schoen's actions do not line up with a franchise which is going to be a bottom feeder.
--We can all debate the Jones contract. At most, Schoen thinks he's a franchise QB. At the least, he thinks he's a bridge QB until the right QB comes along. Either way, Schoen is opting for the roster build strategy until the next QB is here.
--Schoen traded a top 40 pick for Brian Burns and immediately gave him a top tier level contract in his position group.
--Schoen invested heavily in the OL through FA.
--NYG spent a total of $221.8M in free agency (ranked 4th among all NFL teams).
--The Giants drafted Malik Nabers who should be a WR1 and was considered the best non QB in the draft by some.
--This regime has now had 3 drafts which should be the foundation of the roster outside of QB.
I cannot believe how many fans here are just casually predicting a 4 win season with a poor roster being the reasoning. That feels like a total cop out. A few weeks ago I made a thread stating I didn't believe Schoen was on the hot seat, but I had the assumption NYG would be competitive, let's say hovering around .500 and "in the hunt" in December.
However, if the Giants are as bad as people think despite the actions Schoen has taken this offseason, I'd be all for another total housecleaning. When Schoen says they are a few players away, that doesn't mean 4-13. That should mean a few players from competing for a NFC title. Not a few players from going .500.
The Giants brand has never been worse imo. They can only get out of it by winning consistently, but another season over by October and this franchise would be in desperate need for any kind of credibility.
TLDR: Schoen's actions in free agency, the draft and trading for Burns do not align with a team that is going to be as bad as many think. The Giants need to be at minimum, competitive and around .500.
I'm actually an optimist (and a DJ fan) but this is why so many people think we'll be bad.
The QB who has started for six of those seasons is back but coming off another major injury. The offense has been bad and they lost Barkley who represented to many outsiders the one "plus" player they had. The defense has been middling to bad for this whole stretch.
Like you said, the Giants brand and reputation is at its lowest point since the Dark Ages. We haven't earned any benefit of the doubt until we start winning games against good teams.
This team will absolutely be competitive if their key players stay healthy..(Thomas, Lawrence, etc.)
The bottom feeder predictions are in fact lazy.
Giants have no one to blame but themselves but analysts and media are fairly lazy and won’t take the time to breakdown how the personnel additions and especially the coaching staff changes can positively affect the team.
1) Daniel Jones is coming off two injuries and isn't very good otherwise
2) Saquon Barkley was the consensus best offensive player on the team, and was replaced by a journeyman
3) The offensive no matter the characters, has been bad for a decade
4) Several coaches were fired, including two coordinators
5) Several veterans in the secondary left and will be replaced by mid-round picks
When the schedule came out in 22, did you see the Giants beating the Titans, Ravens, Green Bay with Rodgers?
Good teams can take a step back, bad teams rise up every year.
I keep seeing posts talking about the "well we could have won two more last year" when in same breath Giants should have lost at least 2-3 they won.
Every week the momentum can change, every season is different.
I think there's optimism here and reason to watch.
All 4 of those games are going to be intense test of the offense - all possess really good defenses.
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Looking at it, I see 6 wins. Of course, there is so much we don’t know yet - how the new FA pieces fit in, how quickly the rookies get up to speed - but I’d be very pleasantly surprised to get a WC bid.
When the schedule came out in 22, did you see the Giants beating the Titans, Ravens, Green Bay with Rodgers?
Good teams can take a step back, bad teams rise up every year.
Very true, like I said, there is a lot about this team we don’t know yet. Things could gel quickly, and we surprise a team or 2, but looking at the schedule, I just don’t see more than 6-7 wins.
1) Daniel Jones is coming off two injuries and isn't very good otherwise
2) Saquon Barkley was the consensus best offensive player on the team, and was replaced by a journeyman
3) The offensive no matter the characters, has been bad for a decade
4) Several coaches were fired, including two coordinators
5) Several veterans in the secondary left and will be replaced by mid-round picks
How does Schoen walk into Mara's office off a 4-13 season after having spent $221M in free agency? The fan base will be angry, or worse apathetic. There will be no QB solution.
Can Schoen remain here under that scenario?
For all the reasons people pointed to the 2022 success as being not the reality, there are at least as many reasons to see 2023 as not a great reflection, but in reverse. Tough schedule, decimated by injuries inflicting critical areas, etc. Once the line stabilized, which it eventually did, the team competed.
They didn't finish as this hopeless mess by any stretch, yet for whatever reason, that's the perception the national media and many of the fans have. Who would think we would finish the year with a one point loss to the Rams and then beating Philly handedly and yet people would walk away thinking the team was terrible. And yes, Philly was in a funk when we beat them. But isn't that what the Giants were in at the beginning of the year? It sure as hell looked like it to me, I don't know what others were watching.
It is an extremely young team, with young GM and young HC entering their third season. This is when you would expect to see some of these draft picks coming into their own. And no, the early looks haven't been great, but there sure has been some flashes. It's not like there hasn't been a pulse there.
I think it just comes down to DJ hate, to be honest. But a lot of that has just gone too far. The DJ haters have officially matched the DJFC in terms of irrationality. And if DJ sucks and refuses to ever throw down field, they will turn it over to Lock who at least we know will give that much. It's not like TT and Cutlets set some massive bar that can't be reached. The team competed with a relatively low level of QB play last year and I see no reason to believe they aren't a lot more talented now.
You want to take a lazy approach and say they are bad until proven otherwise? Fine. But for the record, this current team is 1-1 in terms of good and bad seasons. Throw the DG era and results out the window --those teams say nothing about this one.
Again, it could go either way. But I see more reason to see this team taking a step forward, possibly a big step, than staying still or stepping back. If it doesn't it doesn't, but the idea that there is some intellectual superiority in the believe that this team has the ear marks of one being terrible is nonsense, IMO.
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The national media and fans have the same line of sight on the Giants many of us do on the Chargers (as an example). They see:
1) Daniel Jones is coming off two injuries and isn't very good otherwise
2) Saquon Barkley was the consensus best offensive player on the team, and was replaced by a journeyman
3) The offensive no matter the characters, has been bad for a decade
4) Several coaches were fired, including two coordinators
5) Several veterans in the secondary left and will be replaced by mid-round picks
How does Schoen walk into Mara's office off a 4-13 season after having spent $221M in free agency? The fan base will be angry, or worse apathetic. There will be no QB solution.
Can Schoen remain here under that scenario?
I think Schoen would be more culpable than Daboll. I think many of us overlook what Dabs did with that awful roster last year. You had a bad roster decimated by injuries, and he was still able to coax 6 wins with Tommy Cutlets starting 4 games. He’s a good HC.
If they’re 4-13, I think everyone needs to be worried about their jobs (unless they’re a Mara), but 7-9? My guess is Mara will call it progress and give them another year.
You aren't understanding the thread. Schoen spent $221M in free agency. He traded a top 40 pick. He drafted a WR1. He did all that and yet a lot of people casually say they are a bottom 3 team? His actions are mostly win now. How can he sell doing all this and then going 4-13?
If I told you that Burrow, Jackson, Hurts & Dak were out for those games then they would instantly be considered winnable
Its the QB
The Giants will only go as far as their QB situation will allow them. For Jones to kind of push Daboll/Schoen back into his corner, he kind of has to will/push this team to another playoff berth this season and in the NFC that looks like a necessary level of 10 wins.
Joe Schoen is trying to build a win now team. No question. However, it is fair to expect that he hasn't succeeded in that. The OP seems to be conflating intent with results.
The Giants will only go as far as their QB situation will allow them. For Jones to kind of push Daboll/Schoen back into his corner, he kind of has to will/push this team to another playoff berth this season and in the NFC that looks like a necessary level of 10 wins.
Sammo, do you think Schoen survives a 4 win season?
Schoen/Daboll can only do so much working with an antiquated process.
Someone posted recently how the Giants go about finding a QB:
1. Do everything not to draft a QB
2. When you finally do, build excuses to keep him there for at least 5-6 years.
It's a fail-slowly process that cannot work in today's NFL.
Joe Schoen is trying to build a win now team. No question. However, it is fair to expect that he hasn't succeeded in that. The OP seems to be conflating intent with results.
I'll ask you as well. Should Schoen remain as GM if this is a 4 win season?
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and one with parity - teams that are between a bandwidth window of 5-8 wins really aren't much different.
The Giants will only go as far as their QB situation will allow them. For Jones to kind of push Daboll/Schoen back into his corner, he kind of has to will/push this team to another playoff berth this season and in the NFC that looks like a necessary level of 10 wins.
Sammo, do you think Schoen survives a 4 win season?
I do, but I would not let him if i was the owner.
Defense still has holes but the front 7 should be the strength of the team. Brand new defensive coaching staff and scheme.
Those are legitimate reasons to think this team will be bad.
I'm actually an optimist (and a DJ fan) but this is why so many people think we'll be bad.
That part right there the OL ... has been bad for a really long time. This has people pessimistic so there is a HUGE shadow of doubt. Can't blame people for that, however as you said OL moves were made in FA so in a vacuum of the here and now ... Where those "good" moves? Yes or No. I like both *main* additions, both players have shown to be capable starters in the past are relatively young in age. As for the OL depth picks to help roster churn they get an TBD. Though they have potential and should definitely push our depths to fight harder. We even picked up legit run blocking TEs which I really think is being overlooked since that is not a flashy move.
I think we will be ok with RB by committee for the year. Who knows Grey or Tracey could also seize the moment crazier things have happened. At minimum Singletary can produce the stats Barkley did, he just will not have DCs focusing on him ... that is now Nabers'/Hyatt's/Robinson's as a collective job. Nabers plus Hyatt will force softer coverage. Robinson and Singletary as outlet options is not not "bad" just not great ... good/ok is the correct ranking as I see it.
Nabers solidifies the WR corp. Hyatt, Slayton, Robinson will be just fine being able to play their natural roles given their respective traits and talent level.
Defensively Burn, Dex, Bobby and KT is not a bad foursome to have in the front seven. Azeez if he can stay healthy with less reps is a nice pass rusher to have on rest plays for KT and Burns. Nubin has to be as good as McKinney was as a rookie, that is realistic considering he is the top safety in the whole draft by most scouts, pundits, etc. CB2 is the kink in the 2ndary armor at the moment, another TBD. Will one of the young DTs seize the opportunity and shine ... 2nd TBD on defense.
at the same time, Nabors is a rookie and probably won't be as impactful as Saquon this year (and i mean only this year), the OL still is a weak spot unless JMS and Neal vastly improve, and we lost a lot in the secondary. Not to mention we have a mediocre QB coming back from a serious injury.
So, yeah, looking at this roster whether it is a quick glance from the national media or more interested and in depth followers like us--it stinks for this year. This is a 5-7 win team at best.
1st....they are currently 0-0
If the season does blows up.
How did it happen?
The QB was a disaster...Schoen probably has an out....as Mara probably had input on Jones.....and they investigated upgrading at QB.
Did injuries blow up team....Schoen might have an out.
If "his" players suck.....and nothing worked out.....coaches probably go 1st....but stove is on
2) When Jones was hurt against Miami, the team was total dogshit. Impossibly bad in each phase. But they played well the next 3 games - only a couple lottery ticket probability plays from 3-0. Whatever that said about the team, it locked in a Jones correlation = causation narrative that the LVR game reinforced. And that was that.
3) PFF/Fantasy Points are the lens 90% of fans view the team through.
In any case, the Giants are the 6th worst team in the league until they prove otherwise. I don't think they'll be bad at all. I think given health they'll wash away the stink by Dallas 1. That will be a telling game.
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You don't know why people think we'll be bad?
You aren't understanding the thread. Schoen spent $221M in free agency. He traded a top 40 pick. He drafted a WR1. He did all that and yet a lot of people casually say they are a bottom 3 team? His actions are mostly win now. How can he sell doing all this and then going 4-13?
How am I not understanding the thread? Your title says, "Why do so many people think NYG will be so bad?" Who cares what Schoen did. Do you think Gettleman didn't do any of the things you said? Do you think Reese didn't? It is extremely common for GMs to spend a lot in FA when their team sucks. Spending money doesn't always equal results. Drafting high in the draft doesn't always equal results. We have been a shit show almost every year for the past decade. What matters is results. Until we see better QB play, until we see better OL play, until we see healthier players, etc. most will be hesitant to saying the team will be good. What I think is you don't understand where this team has been the last decade and what previous GMs have tried to accomplish with the same arguments you are making. They have all failed. Like playing football on the field, most games are lost in the NFL than won. Same goes for GMs. It isn't always about the hits you make, a lot of time it is about the mistakes you make. Paying Jones what they did was a huge mistake. Hanging on to Barkley on the FT and then not trading him was a big mistake. Not trading McKinney at the deadline last year was a mistake. There are many more. Not GM ever bats 1.000 but you cannot have multiple crippling mistakes and expect to survive when your team is not good to begin with. And as for those poster that are saying it is easier to be negative than positive, that depends on the team. When your team has sustained success like the Eagles, Ravens, Chiefs, etc. then it is easy to get excited about your upcoming season. When you are the Giants, what have they given us to be proud of? It is the same as the players on shitty teams getting mad at the fans for booing. Maybe if you played better then we wouldn't boo.
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to improve the team immediately equate to "why would you expect them to be bad?"
Joe Schoen is trying to build a win now team. No question. However, it is fair to expect that he hasn't succeeded in that. The OP seems to be conflating intent with results.
I'll ask you as well. Should Schoen remain as GM if this is a 4 win season?
The better question is should he remain of this is a 7 win team.
This team is in its window to compete now, but the whole plan feels misaligned because of the.QB situation.
To me a 7 win season is no different than a 4 win season. Both show the Giants are going nowhere.
We have enough talent on the rest of the roster to compete and win 9+ games but if the OL doesn't do it's job it won't matter and we're a ~6 win team.
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You don't know why people think we'll be bad?
You aren't understanding the thread. Schoen spent $221M in free agency. He traded a top 40 pick. He drafted a WR1. He did all that and yet a lot of people casually say they are a bottom 3 team? His actions are mostly win now. How can he sell doing all this and then going 4-13?
He can't. Frankly the expectation given the moves and decisions they made this offseason should be that this team win a minimum of 9 games.
That's also why the "go get a QB in 2025" philosophy makes no sense to me. It's been made abundantly clear that they need to fall in love with and be in position to draft a QB - but if they're bad enough to do that, nobody involved with building the 2024 Giants should be making that selection.
You don't get to lose 10+ games with a $40 million QB and everything else they've done. Sorry.
One thing to keep in mind is that "the experts" and fans constantly overreact to the last game or last season played.
Media and fans overreacted to 2022 (in a positive way). Media and fans are probably overreacting to 2023 (in a negative way).
Clearly, the main rationale for the Giants to be terrible is the quarterback situation. A close second is the perception that Saquon Barkley was a major loss.
I personally think the growing pains of the new OL and secondary are more important than the loss of Barkley, but we shall see.
If after year 3, they have a top 5 pick and no QB solution I don't see how you run it back with this regime.
This team will absolutely be competitive if their key players stay healthy..(Thomas, Lawrence, etc.)
The bottom feeder predictions are in fact lazy.
Agreed. If we stay relatively healthy and more importantly get decent play out of the OL, we will be a 10 win team, IMO.
The Giants probably lead the NFL in pundit's logical fallacy ratio.
In 2022, we had a crazy weak schedule, got tons of good bounces, turned it over at an unsustainably low rate, and won a lot of close games against mediocre teams. 2023, some of those things reverted.
Everyone who knows anything about football should have expected a worse record in 23.
This year, maybe we are marginally better in a few areas. We are still a below average team with an anemic offense and an OK defense. If things really break our way, we could win 9. If things really go against us, we could win 4.
I care about the Giants being really good or being on a path to being really good. We are not either now. So whether we win on some bounces or lose on some bounces just doesn't matter very much to me. 7 wins, 4 wins, whatever. Now, if we look fundamentally different, that is another story. But I'm not expecting that.
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In comment 16516449 Mike from Ohio said:
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to improve the team immediately equate to "why would you expect them to be bad?"
Joe Schoen is trying to build a win now team. No question. However, it is fair to expect that he hasn't succeeded in that. The OP seems to be conflating intent with results.
I'll ask you as well. Should Schoen remain as GM if this is a 4 win season?
The better question is should he remain of this is a 7 win team.
This team is in its window to compete now, but the whole plan feels misaligned because of the.QB situation.
To me a 7 win season is no different than a 4 win season. Both show the Giants are going nowhere.
I get you are 1000 confident in your take on Jones and can’t be happy until he is gone..
Good luck with that, maybe you can a cream or something…