Why do so many people think NYG will be so bad?

our biggest problem, the O-line, and we have a QB that few fans – ours or others – believe in, and we still have little to no depth even at positions of strength. Yes, we've improved, but so have other bad teams.

I'm actually an optimist (and a DJ fan) but this is why so many people think we'll be bad.

and even among our friends. The Giants need to perform at a higher level to change that perception (2022 we overachieved and had a 9-7-1 record, which many teams with a history of success would consider mediocre at best).

And since then have only had two winning seasons out of twelve.

The QB who has started for six of those seasons is back but coming off another major injury. The offense has been bad and they lost Barkley who represented to many outsiders the one "plus" player they had. The defense has been middling to bad for this whole stretch.

Like you said, the Giants brand and reputation is at its lowest point since the Dark Ages. We haven't earned any benefit of the doubt until we start winning games against good teams.

If the Giants go 4-13, I think it's clear Daboll is gone. But, I don't see how Schoen can sell any sort of progress to Mara. Also, I can only imagine how awful MetLife stadium will be filled with opposing fans and no QB solution.

This was a playoff team in 22 with horrible talent by comparison.

This team will absolutely be competitive if their key players stay healthy..(Thomas, Lawrence, etc.)

The bottom feeder predictions are in fact lazy.

Looking at it, I see 6 wins. Of course, there is so much we don’t know yet - how the new FA pieces fit in, how quickly the rookies get up to speed - but I’d be very pleasantly surprised to get a WC bid.

than it is to predict being good and be wrong. Always has been, always will be.

Giants have no one to blame but themselves but analysts and media are fairly lazy and won’t take the time to breakdown how the personnel additions and especially the coaching staff changes can positively affect the team.

The national media and fans have the same line of sight on the Giants many of us do on the Chargers (as an example). They see:

1) Daniel Jones is coming off two injuries and isn't very good otherwise

2) Saquon Barkley was the consensus best offensive player on the team, and was replaced by a journeyman

3) The offensive no matter the characters, has been bad for a decade

4) Several coaches were fired, including two coordinators

5) Several veterans in the secondary left and will be replaced by mid-round picks

In comment 16516413 Section331 said:

Quote:

Looking at it, I see 6 wins. Of course, there is so much we don’t know yet - how the new FA pieces fit in, how quickly the rookies get up to speed - but I’d be very pleasantly surprised to get a WC bid.

When the schedule came out in 22, did you see the Giants beating the Titans, Ravens, Green Bay with Rodgers?

Good teams can take a step back, bad teams rise up every year.

are also swinging both ways.

I keep seeing posts talking about the "well we could have won two more last year" when in same breath Giants should have lost at least 2-3 they won.

Every week the momentum can change, every season is different.

I think there's optimism here and reason to watch.

against the AFC North and the style of football they play is brutal however.

All 4 of those games are going to be intense test of the offense - all possess really good defenses.

In comment 16516417 bLiTz 2k said:

Quote:

In comment 16516413 Section331 said: Quote: Looking at it, I see 6 wins. Of course, there is so much we don’t know yet - how the new FA pieces fit in, how quickly the rookies get up to speed - but I’d be very pleasantly surprised to get a WC bid. When the schedule came out in 22, did you see the Giants beating the Titans, Ravens, Green Bay with Rodgers? Good teams can take a step back, bad teams rise up every year.

Very true, like I said, there is a lot about this team we don’t know yet. Things could gel quickly, and we surprise a team or 2, but looking at the schedule, I just don’t see more than 6-7 wins.

...Jones is the reason that so many are down on the Giants.

In comment 16516415 christian said:

Quote:

The national media and fans have the same line of sight on the Giants many of us do on the Chargers (as an example). They see: 1) Daniel Jones is coming off two injuries and isn't very good otherwise 2) Saquon Barkley was the consensus best offensive player on the team, and was replaced by a journeyman 3) The offensive no matter the characters, has been bad for a decade 4) Several coaches were fired, including two coordinators 5) Several veterans in the secondary left and will be replaced by mid-round picks

How does Schoen walk into Mara's office off a 4-13 season after having spent $221M in free agency? The fan base will be angry, or worse apathetic. There will be no QB solution.

Can Schoen remain here under that scenario?

They can’t beat either Dallas/P and normally, they can’t come close. That, and arguably the worst OL play in the NFL, for years now. Add a QB that can’t stay healthy and when he is, is often traumatized by that OL. Can it get better? It better, soon or we all know what is going to happen.

You don't know why people think we'll be bad?

Only other teams can get better. Everything the Giants do is for naught. It doesn’t matter Schoen has completely overhauled the roster. Being negative about everything is just being realistic. There’s more but this will do for now.

But in terms of candidates for being among the league's worst, I think it's piss poor logic.

For all the reasons people pointed to the 2022 success as being not the reality, there are at least as many reasons to see 2023 as not a great reflection, but in reverse. Tough schedule, decimated by injuries inflicting critical areas, etc. Once the line stabilized, which it eventually did, the team competed.

They didn't finish as this hopeless mess by any stretch, yet for whatever reason, that's the perception the national media and many of the fans have. Who would think we would finish the year with a one point loss to the Rams and then beating Philly handedly and yet people would walk away thinking the team was terrible. And yes, Philly was in a funk when we beat them. But isn't that what the Giants were in at the beginning of the year? It sure as hell looked like it to me, I don't know what others were watching.

It is an extremely young team, with young GM and young HC entering their third season. This is when you would expect to see some of these draft picks coming into their own. And no, the early looks haven't been great, but there sure has been some flashes. It's not like there hasn't been a pulse there.

I think it just comes down to DJ hate, to be honest. But a lot of that has just gone too far. The DJ haters have officially matched the DJFC in terms of irrationality. And if DJ sucks and refuses to ever throw down field, they will turn it over to Lock who at least we know will give that much. It's not like TT and Cutlets set some massive bar that can't be reached. The team competed with a relatively low level of QB play last year and I see no reason to believe they aren't a lot more talented now.

You want to take a lazy approach and say they are bad until proven otherwise? Fine. But for the record, this current team is 1-1 in terms of good and bad seasons. Throw the DG era and results out the window --those teams say nothing about this one.

Again, it could go either way. But I see more reason to see this team taking a step forward, possibly a big step, than staying still or stepping back. If it doesn't it doesn't, but the idea that there is some intellectual superiority in the believe that this team has the ear marks of one being terrible is nonsense, IMO.

In comment 16516428 Sean said:

Quote:

In comment 16516415 christian said: Quote: The national media and fans have the same line of sight on the Giants many of us do on the Chargers (as an example). They see: 1) Daniel Jones is coming off two injuries and isn't very good otherwise 2) Saquon Barkley was the consensus best offensive player on the team, and was replaced by a journeyman 3) The offensive no matter the characters, has been bad for a decade 4) Several coaches were fired, including two coordinators 5) Several veterans in the secondary left and will be replaced by mid-round picks How does Schoen walk into Mara's office off a 4-13 season after having spent $221M in free agency? The fan base will be angry, or worse apathetic. There will be no QB solution. Can Schoen remain here under that scenario?

I think Schoen would be more culpable than Daboll. I think many of us overlook what Dabs did with that awful roster last year. You had a bad roster decimated by injuries, and he was still able to coax 6 wins with Tommy Cutlets starting 4 games. He’s a good HC.

If they’re 4-13, I think everyone needs to be worried about their jobs (unless they’re a Mara), but 7-9? My guess is Mara will call it progress and give them another year.

In comment 16516430 robbieballs2003 said:

Quote:

You don't know why people think we'll be bad?

You aren't understanding the thread. Schoen spent $221M in free agency. He traded a top 40 pick. He drafted a WR1. He did all that and yet a lot of people casually say they are a bottom 3 team? His actions are mostly win now. How can he sell doing all this and then going 4-13?

The most difficult games on Giants schedule are Ravens, Bengals, Eagles, Cowboys

If I told you that Burrow, Jackson, Hurts & Dak were out for those games then they would instantly be considered winnable

Its the QB

and one with parity - teams that are between a bandwidth window of 5-8 wins really aren't much different.

The Giants will only go as far as their QB situation will allow them. For Jones to kind of push Daboll/Schoen back into his corner, he kind of has to will/push this team to another playoff berth this season and in the NFC that looks like a necessary level of 10 wins.

and every year they are not good

We'll be that bad. As it stands, I'm predicting 7 wins. Both lines are improved... although we've said that about the O-line for years. But it starts there. I think our skill positions have improved. Yes, even with the departure of Barkley. Yes, QB will still be an issue. But I think 7 wins is a reasonable expectation at this point.

to improve the team immediately equate to "why would you expect them to be bad?"

Joe Schoen is trying to build a win now team. No question. However, it is fair to expect that he hasn't succeeded in that. The OP seems to be conflating intent with results.

In comment 16516440 Sammo85 said:

Quote:

and one with parity - teams that are between a bandwidth window of 5-8 wins really aren't much different. The Giants will only go as far as their QB situation will allow them. For Jones to kind of push Daboll/Schoen back into his corner, he kind of has to will/push this team to another playoff berth this season and in the NFC that looks like a necessary level of 10 wins.

Sammo, do you think Schoen survives a 4 win season?

and knows how they bungled the Jones contract situation.

Schoen/Daboll can only do so much working with an antiquated process.

Someone posted recently how the Giants go about finding a QB:

1. Do everything not to draft a QB
2. When you finally do, build excuses to keep him there for at least 5-6 years.

It's a fail-slowly process that cannot work in today's NFL.

In comment 16516449 Mike from Ohio said:

Quote:

to improve the team immediately equate to "why would you expect them to be bad?" Joe Schoen is trying to build a win now team. No question. However, it is fair to expect that he hasn't succeeded in that. The OP seems to be conflating intent with results.

I'll ask you as well. Should Schoen remain as GM if this is a 4 win season?

In comment 16516450 Sean said:

Quote:

In comment 16516440 Sammo85 said: Quote: and one with parity - teams that are between a bandwidth window of 5-8 wins really aren't much different. The Giants will only go as far as their QB situation will allow them. For Jones to kind of push Daboll/Schoen back into his corner, he kind of has to will/push this team to another playoff berth this season and in the NFC that looks like a necessary level of 10 wins. Sammo, do you think Schoen survives a 4 win season?

I do, but I would not let him if i was the owner.

Bottom tier QB and bottom tier offensive weapons. I hope Nabers will be great but he’s still a rookie. Offensive line needs to prove it can be competent.

Defense still has holes but the front 7 should be the strength of the team. Brand new defensive coaching staff and scheme.

Those are legitimate reasons to think this team will be bad.

In comment 16516404 CT Charlie said:

Quote:

our biggest problem, the O-line, and we have a QB that few fans – ours or others – believe in, and we still have little to no depth even at positions of strength. Yes, we've improved, but so have other bad teams. I'm actually an optimist (and a DJ fan) but this is why so many people think we'll be bad.

That part right there the OL ... has been bad for a really long time. This has people pessimistic so there is a HUGE shadow of doubt. Can't blame people for that, however as you said OL moves were made in FA so in a vacuum of the here and now ... Where those "good" moves? Yes or No. I like both *main* additions, both players have shown to be capable starters in the past are relatively young in age. As for the OL depth picks to help roster churn they get an TBD. Though they have potential and should definitely push our depths to fight harder. We even picked up legit run blocking TEs which I really think is being overlooked since that is not a flashy move.

I think we will be ok with RB by committee for the year. Who knows Grey or Tracey could also seize the moment crazier things have happened. At minimum Singletary can produce the stats Barkley did, he just will not have DCs focusing on him ... that is now Nabers'/Hyatt's/Robinson's as a collective job. Nabers plus Hyatt will force softer coverage. Robinson and Singletary as outlet options is not not "bad" just not great ... good/ok is the correct ranking as I see it.

Nabers solidifies the WR corp. Hyatt, Slayton, Robinson will be just fine being able to play their natural roles given their respective traits and talent level.

Defensively Burn, Dex, Bobby and KT is not a bad foursome to have in the front seven. Azeez if he can stay healthy with less reps is a nice pass rusher to have on rest plays for KT and Burns. Nubin has to be as good as McKinney was as a rookie, that is realistic considering he is the top safety in the whole draft by most scouts, pundits, etc. CB2 is the kink in the 2ndary armor at the moment, another TBD. Will one of the young DTs seize the opportunity and shine ... 2nd TBD on defense.

we improved in getting Burns, made marginal but meaningful upgrades to our OL, and Nabors has potential to be a game changing one

at the same time, Nabors is a rookie and probably won't be as impactful as Saquon this year (and i mean only this year), the OL still is a weak spot unless JMS and Neal vastly improve, and we lost a lot in the secondary. Not to mention we have a mediocre QB coming back from a serious injury.

So, yeah, looking at this roster whether it is a quick glance from the national media or more interested and in depth followers like us--it stinks for this year. This is a 5-7 win team at best.

the distrust in the QB room

We have no QB. None.

My answer...

1st....they are currently 0-0

If the season does blows up.

How did it happen?

The QB was a disaster...Schoen probably has an out....as Mara probably had input on Jones.....and they investigated upgrading at QB.

Did injuries blow up team....Schoen might have an out.

If "his" players suck.....and nothing worked out.....coaches probably go 1st....but stove is on

1) Dallas opening night. That debacle is indelibly burned into fans (and media's) brains. Anyone who watched that game would think the Giants were the worst team in the league - maybe the worst team in NFL history - and with good reason.

2) When Jones was hurt against Miami, the team was total dogshit. Impossibly bad in each phase. But they played well the next 3 games - only a couple lottery ticket probability plays from 3-0. Whatever that said about the team, it locked in a Jones correlation = causation narrative that the LVR game reinforced. And that was that.

3) PFF/Fantasy Points are the lens 90% of fans view the team through.

In any case, the Giants are the 6th worst team in the league until they prove otherwise. I don't think they'll be bad at all. I think given health they'll wash away the stink by Dallas 1. That will be a telling game.

In comment 16516437 Sean said:

Quote:

In comment 16516430 robbieballs2003 said: Quote: You don't know why people think we'll be bad? You aren't understanding the thread. Schoen spent $221M in free agency. He traded a top 40 pick. He drafted a WR1. He did all that and yet a lot of people casually say they are a bottom 3 team? His actions are mostly win now. How can he sell doing all this and then going 4-13?

How am I not understanding the thread? Your title says, "Why do so many people think NYG will be so bad?" Who cares what Schoen did. Do you think Gettleman didn't do any of the things you said? Do you think Reese didn't? It is extremely common for GMs to spend a lot in FA when their team sucks. Spending money doesn't always equal results. Drafting high in the draft doesn't always equal results. We have been a shit show almost every year for the past decade. What matters is results. Until we see better QB play, until we see better OL play, until we see healthier players, etc. most will be hesitant to saying the team will be good. What I think is you don't understand where this team has been the last decade and what previous GMs have tried to accomplish with the same arguments you are making. They have all failed. Like playing football on the field, most games are lost in the NFL than won. Same goes for GMs. It isn't always about the hits you make, a lot of time it is about the mistakes you make. Paying Jones what they did was a huge mistake. Hanging on to Barkley on the FT and then not trading him was a big mistake. Not trading McKinney at the deadline last year was a mistake. There are many more. Not GM ever bats 1.000 but you cannot have multiple crippling mistakes and expect to survive when your team is not good to begin with. And as for those poster that are saying it is easier to be negative than positive, that depends on the team. When your team has sustained success like the Eagles, Ravens, Chiefs, etc. then it is easy to get excited about your upcoming season. When you are the Giants, what have they given us to be proud of? It is the same as the players on shitty teams getting mad at the fans for booing. Maybe if you played better then we wouldn't boo.

In comment 16516452 Sean said:

Quote:

In comment 16516449 Mike from Ohio said: Quote: to improve the team immediately equate to "why would you expect them to be bad?" Joe Schoen is trying to build a win now team. No question. However, it is fair to expect that he hasn't succeeded in that. The OP seems to be conflating intent with results. I'll ask you as well. Should Schoen remain as GM if this is a 4 win season?

The better question is should he remain of this is a 7 win team.

This team is in its window to compete now, but the whole plan feels misaligned because of the.QB situation.

To me a 7 win season is no different than a 4 win season. Both show the Giants are going nowhere.

and it all hinges on the Offensive Line. That is THE NYG "plus" player/group!! A good OL can allow DJ to be a "good" QB and stay on the field(def off), it's that simple. If the OL shits itself like last year the predictions will be correct.

We have enough talent on the rest of the roster to compete and win 9+ games but if the OL doesn't do it's job it won't matter and we're a ~6 win team.

In comment 16516437 Sean said:

Quote:

In comment 16516430 robbieballs2003 said: Quote: You don't know why people think we'll be bad? You aren't understanding the thread. Schoen spent $221M in free agency. He traded a top 40 pick. He drafted a WR1. He did all that and yet a lot of people casually say they are a bottom 3 team? His actions are mostly win now. How can he sell doing all this and then going 4-13?

He can't. Frankly the expectation given the moves and decisions they made this offseason should be that this team win a minimum of 9 games.

That's also why the "go get a QB in 2025" philosophy makes no sense to me. It's been made abundantly clear that they need to fall in love with and be in position to draft a QB - but if they're bad enough to do that, nobody involved with building the 2024 Giants should be making that selection.

You don't get to lose 10+ games with a $40 million QB and everything else they've done. Sorry.

the Giants could be a surprise team, or they can suck. I've seen too many Giants seasons go both ways when it was expected they would be bad.

One thing to keep in mind is that "the experts" and fans constantly overreact to the last game or last season played.

Media and fans overreacted to 2022 (in a positive way). Media and fans are probably overreacting to 2023 (in a negative way).

Clearly, the main rationale for the Giants to be terrible is the quarterback situation. A close second is the perception that Saquon Barkley was a major loss.

I personally think the growing pains of the new OL and secondary are more important than the loss of Barkley, but we shall see.

That's all very fair. My title should have been better. My overall point is Schoen has dumped a lot of resources into the team.

If after year 3, they have a top 5 pick and no QB solution I don't see how you run it back with this regime.

In comment 16516412 bLiTz 2k said:

Quote:

This was a playoff team in 22 with horrible talent by comparison. This team will absolutely be competitive if their key players stay healthy..(Thomas, Lawrence, etc.) The bottom feeder predictions are in fact lazy.

Agreed. If we stay relatively healthy and more importantly get decent play out of the OL, we will be a 10 win team, IMO.

One national pundit said Nabers will inject some sorely needed speed into the offense. In fact, Hyatt / Slayton / Wandale were one of the fastest WR trios in the league. Diss their overall game if you like, but if there's one thing they're not, it's slow.

The Giants probably lead the NFL in pundit's logical fallacy ratio.

Fundamentally the 2022 and 2023 teams were similar. Anemic offense, OK defense. 2024, I expect to be similar as well.

In 2022, we had a crazy weak schedule, got tons of good bounces, turned it over at an unsustainably low rate, and won a lot of close games against mediocre teams. 2023, some of those things reverted.

Everyone who knows anything about football should have expected a worse record in 23.

This year, maybe we are marginally better in a few areas. We are still a below average team with an anemic offense and an OK defense. If things really break our way, we could win 9. If things really go against us, we could win 4.

I care about the Giants being really good or being on a path to being really good. We are not either now. So whether we win on some bounces or lose on some bounces just doesn't matter very much to me. 7 wins, 4 wins, whatever. Now, if we look fundamentally different, that is another story. But I'm not expecting that.

In comment 16516485 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 16516452 Sean said: Quote: In comment 16516449 Mike from Ohio said: Quote: to improve the team immediately equate to "why would you expect them to be bad?" Joe Schoen is trying to build a win now team. No question. However, it is fair to expect that he hasn't succeeded in that. The OP seems to be conflating intent with results. I'll ask you as well. Should Schoen remain as GM if this is a 4 win season? The better question is should he remain of this is a 7 win team. This team is in its window to compete now, but the whole plan feels misaligned because of the.QB situation. To me a 7 win season is no different than a 4 win season. Both show the Giants are going nowhere.

So wrong. Context matters or you have to give Jones credit for 22. Can’t have it both ways. A 7 win season could definitely show growth. What if in the 7 win season they never lose by more than a TD and they lose a few nail biters to the best teams in the league. What if QB has a breakthrough season and it proves we can win with him. Drastically changes the outlook no?

I get you are 1000 confident in your take on Jones and can’t be happy until he is gone..

Good luck with that, maybe you can a cream or something…

They’ll be lucky if they win more than 6 games again. Vegas gives them the 2nd longest odds in the NFC to qualify for the postseason. They have arguably the worst QB room in the league. Mentally I’m ready for another 4-6 win year.

Fixing it with castoff has not worked the third round pick should have been the player Dallas drafted a few picks after us not a nickel back.

I like the fact that the team is finally in a re-building mode, getting younger and filling depth in a lot of positions. But, then I saw the schedule last night. A lot of teams, like Washington and New Orleans for example, have gotten a lot better after the draft. Looking at the schedule, I just don’t see the Giants winning more than 5 games. And, that might be optimistic.

Follow the crowd, especially when led by the media. They don’t consider out lying facts that butt up against the group. I think Vegas over under wins on Giants is 61/2. I would take the over. It’s. Obvious to me this team has improved and could win 9 or 10 if they get some bounces .