The national media is lumping NYG in with the Panthers as the bottom feeders of the league. As I've said, Schoen's actions do not line up with a franchise which is going to be a bottom feeder.
--We can all debate the Jones contract. At most, Schoen thinks he's a franchise QB. At the least, he thinks he's a bridge QB until the right QB comes along. Either way, Schoen is opting for the roster build strategy until the next QB is here.
--Schoen traded a top 40 pick for Brian Burns and immediately gave him a top tier level contract in his position group.
--Schoen invested heavily in the OL through FA.
--NYG spent a total of $221.8M in free agency (ranked 4th among all NFL teams).
--The Giants drafted Malik Nabers who should be a WR1 and was considered the best non QB in the draft by some.
--This regime has now had 3 drafts which should be the foundation of the roster outside of QB.
I cannot believe how many fans here are just casually predicting a 4 win season with a poor roster being the reasoning. That feels like a total cop out. A few weeks ago I made a thread stating I didn't believe Schoen was on the hot seat, but I had the assumption NYG would be competitive, let's say hovering around .500 and "in the hunt" in December.
However, if the Giants are as bad as people think despite the actions Schoen has taken this offseason, I'd be all for another total housecleaning. When Schoen says they are a few players away, that doesn't mean 4-13. That should mean a few players from competing for a NFC title. Not a few players from going .500.
The Giants brand has never been worse imo. They can only get out of it by winning consistently, but another season over by October and this franchise would be in desperate need for any kind of credibility.
TLDR: Schoen's actions in free agency, the draft and trading for Burns do not align with a team that is going to be as bad as many think. The Giants need to be at minimum, competitive and around .500.
If after year 3, they have a top 5 pick and no QB solution I don't see how you run it back with this regime.
I think Schoen has gotten off very easy with the fan base. Even Schoen himself has not held back by throwing shade at Gettleman. It's weak. This is a pivotal year for him imo. I'm not saying he gets fired nor should be fired but people need to be realistic and go with facts and not feelings. This is not a good team and the best players on the team are Gettleman's picks in Dex and Thomas. Now, there is potential here with Burns, Thibs, Neal, JMS, Nabers, Okereke, and Banks but we need to see results. We cannot have a joke of an OL again. We cannot have a joke of QB play again. We need an identity.
Too many posters here every day are negative on this team. Quite frankly, it becomes contagious and that is why I try to look for information only. I guess Eric has no problem with the tone here. The constant whining and complaining makes me question whether people are real fans. Winning arguments is not my thing.
Quote:
If the Giants go 4-13, I think it's clear Daboll is gone. But, I don't see how Schoen can sell any sort of progress to Mara. Also, I can only imagine how awful MetLife stadium will be filled with opposing fans and no QB solution.
Too many posters here every day are negative on this team. Quite frankly, it becomes contagious and that is why I try to look for information only. I guess Eric has no problem with the tone here. The constant whining and complaining makes me question whether people are real fans. Winning arguments is not my thing.
I agree. I don't have a positive outlook on this team until they show some type of improvement. However, I don't post over and over and over again the same things about how bad they are. We get it. The way I am is basically expect the worst but hope for the best. I'd love for Jones to come out this year and just prove everyone wrong and give everyone the finger. Will it happen? Most likely not but I hope it happens.
This is all about getting a QB in 2025. If Jones is average or below we move on next year.
If he somehow crushes it, then the Giants can decide to keep him or trade him.
Their 2024 Draft strategy was plan "B" most likely. They'll give Daboll his QB in 2025. I think these guys are tied to the hip, both stay or both go.
One thing to keep in mind is that "the experts" and fans constantly overreact to the last game or last season played.
Media and fans overreacted to 2022 (in a positive way). Media and fans are probably overreacting to 2023 (in a negative way).
Clearly, the main rationale for the Giants to be terrible is the quarterback situation. A close second is the perception that Saquon Barkley was a major loss.
I personally think the growing pains of the new OL and secondary are more important than the loss of Barkley, but we shall see.
It is kind of odd to point to how much a GM spent as evidence that the team will be good. All GM’s spend, not all teams are good.
I like the off-season the Giants have had. Sure, I would have preferred a QB, but things didn’t fall their way. I think the OL will be competent to decent, but it may take time for them to put it together. OL is arguably the unit that needs the most coordination between players. That takes time.
That’s why I think the time to gel issue is the most critical one. The first 3 games are winnable, a 1-2 or 0-3 start would be borderline catastrophic. And I haven’t even addressed the secondary yet.
Last year with a tougher schedule we won 6 games with a depleted roster and were probably 4 plays away from 9 wins. Do you not think this team is better than last year?
i havent done this but if you looked at win o/u's i would imagine they basically correlate exactly with last year's standings. they arent trying to find the needle in haystack teams who will surprise, they are just balancing the books so that way they are covered knowing there will be a few teams who do surprise bc it happens every year.
Quote:
Looking at it, I see 6 wins. Of course, there is so much we don’t know yet - how the new FA pieces fit in, how quickly the rookies get up to speed - but I’d be very pleasantly surprised to get a WC bid.
Last year with a tougher schedule we won 6 games with a depleted roster and were probably 4 plays away from 9 wins. Do you not think this team is better than last year?
4 plays away from 9 wins? I'm not so sure about that, but you could also argue we were 4 plays away from 3 wins. Maybe they get the breaks this year, but I think it's a fallacy to assume they can catch lightning in a bottle like they did in '22.
Quote:
In comment 16516430 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
You don't know why people think we'll be bad?
You aren't understanding the thread. Schoen spent $221M in free agency. He traded a top 40 pick. He drafted a WR1. He did all that and yet a lot of people casually say they are a bottom 3 team? His actions are mostly win now. How can he sell doing all this and then going 4-13?
How am I not understanding the thread? Your title says, "Why do so many people think NYG will be so bad?" Who cares what Schoen did. Do you think Gettleman didn't do any of the things you said? Do you think Reese didn't? It is extremely common for GMs to spend a lot in FA when their team sucks. Spending money doesn't always equal results. Drafting high in the draft doesn't always equal results. We have been a shit show almost every year for the past decade. What matters is results. Until we see better QB play, until we see better OL play, until we see healthier players, etc. most will be hesitant to saying the team will be good. What I think is you don't understand where this team has been the last decade and what previous GMs have tried to accomplish with the same arguments you are making. They have all failed. Like playing football on the field, most games are lost in the NFL than won. Same goes for GMs. It isn't always about the hits you make, a lot of time it is about the mistakes you make. Paying Jones what they did was a huge mistake. Hanging on to Barkley on the FT and then not trading him was a big mistake. Not trading McKinney at the deadline last year was a mistake. There are many more. Not GM ever bats 1.000 but you cannot have multiple crippling mistakes and expect to survive when your team is not good to begin with. And as for those poster that are saying it is easier to be negative than positive, that depends on the team. When your team has sustained success like the Eagles, Ravens, Chiefs, etc. then it is easy to get excited about your upcoming season. When you are the Giants, what have they given us to be proud of? It is the same as the players on shitty teams getting mad at the fans for booing. Maybe if you played better then we wouldn't boo.
Good post.
Bengals score first over all pick, they make the play-offs.
Jaguars get first pick, they improve.
Texans get second over all pick, they make the play-offs.
Lions picked second in 2022, last season they made the play-offs.
I know this over looks that we made the play-offs the season before last, but last season has put us back where we have been for the past eight seasons or so.
We also play in a tough division.
The consensus among the media is that the Giants will be picking in the top ten again in a years time. Might depend on injuries whether or not that will be true.
This is all about getting a QB in 2025. If Jones is average or below we move on next year.
If he somehow crushes it, then the Giants can decide to keep him or trade him.
Their 2024 Draft strategy was plan "B" most likely. They'll give Daboll his QB in 2025. I think these guys are tied to the hip, both stay or both go.
The fanbase is going to riot with a 4 win season. The only way I see them surviving that is if they quickly pivot away from Jones. Lock may not get them many wins, but watching Jones suck for 17 games would turn even the casual fan who can't name anyone on the OL or DL against BD and JS. The situation would be completely untenable.
If they don't trot him out on that frigging blocked field goal, the entire outlook changes imo.
The Giants screwed up big last year not having depth behind the teams most important player. Hopefully it works out better this year and they can scrap in most games.
They are a very young team with a revamped line coming off a season where they allowed the second most sacks in a season in league history.
They also have a huge hole at QB and their most accomplished back is Devin Singletary who is now on his third team.
Dallas and Dak
Vikings and Cousins (up until last year when he got hurt)
Philly and Hurts
Niners and Purdy
Steelers win 9-10 games per year without a QB on the roster--(now they have 2 guys who were cut)
Titans up until 2022 were winning 10-11 per year with Tannehill
JAguars and LAwrence will be a 10-11 win threat once again in 24. They would have won more games if Tlaw didn't wreck his ankle but many here are convinced he simply sucks. Nope.
This isn't about Jones. Not comparing anyone to him. I am looking at those teams I listed and what do all those QBs have in common? Not one of those QBs was a first rounder except the second coming of Andrew Luck, Peyton and Montana --his name is LAwrence and now everyone thinks he sucks simply because he didn't take off in year 3 perfect linear fashion. He did have a very good year 2.
IN short, people are so wrong so often about so many QBs it's downright hillarious to see so many insist that they know so much today. Nope. You will be fooled again.
But sure, the Giants will be terrible because of one position and one position only. Sure.
If Jones is the franchise QB Schoen/Daboll think he is then ten wins should be expected from this board. That's why Schoen made Jones the 10th highest paid player in the NFL.
So, that's my expectation. On paper, Jones should have better OL, receivers and he's entering that all important sixth year...
Now factor in a QB that has averaged less than 1.5 total TDs (passing AND rushing) per game the past 5 years...
Quote:
If the Giants go 4-13, I think it's clear Daboll is gone. But, I don't see how Schoen can sell any sort of progress to Mara. Also, I can only imagine how awful MetLife stadium will be filled with opposing fans and no QB solution.
Too many posters here every day are negative on this team. Quite frankly, it becomes contagious and that is why I try to look for information only. I guess Eric has no problem with the tone here. The constant whining and complaining makes me question whether people are real fans. Winning arguments is not my thing.
Whining and complaining? This has been one of the worst NFL franchises in the past 10 years. Do you expect fans to be happy about watching bad football?
This franchise use to aspire to win super bowls. Now 9 win seasons and wild card wins are praised like championships.
This is a fan discussion forum and most of what this team has done recently has been poor. How could you not expect criticism?
Quote:
You don't know why people think we'll be bad?
You aren't understanding the thread. Schoen spent $221M in free agency. He traded a top 40 pick. He drafted a WR1. He did all that and yet a lot of people casually say they are a bottom 3 team? His actions are mostly win now. How can he sell doing all this and then going 4-13?
its the QB situation
If Jones is the franchise QB Schoen/Daboll think he is then ten wins should be expected from this board. That's why Schoen made Jones the 10th highest paid player in the NFL.
So, that's my expectation. On paper, Jones should have better OL, receivers and he's entering that all important sixth year...
This is really my point. Schoen has dumped a lot of resources into this team.
But to think anything other than they won't continue to build on their decade long string of ineptitude would be foolish.
Forget about the pundits - look at Vegas. They don't make those odds based on feelings or emotions - they know what they're doing.
2) the oline has been terrible
3) defense cannot stop the run and can't get off the field
Do I think they could be better - yes. If Bricillo can get the line even partially fixed, the offense may be decent.
If Bowen can stop the run, the defense may be able to get off the field on 3rd and long.
But to think anything other than they won't continue to build on their decade long string of ineptitude would be foolish.
Forget about the pundits - look at Vegas. They don't make those odds based on feelings or emotions - they know what they're doing.
Yes. And last I checked the Giants were +15000 to win the Super Bowl, ranked 28th or 29th.
But to think anything other than they won't continue to build on their decade long string of ineptitude would be foolish.
Forget about the pundits - look at Vegas. They don't make those odds based on feelings or emotions - they know what they're doing.
They are based on what they believe bettors will do. Yes they have a decent idea of how a team will play, no doubt. Is it scientific? No it is based on trying to get people to place bets and extracting money vs paying out.
Quote:
I hope they don't suck.
But to think anything other than they won't continue to build on their decade long string of ineptitude would be foolish.
Forget about the pundits - look at Vegas. They don't make those odds based on feelings or emotions - they know what they're doing.
They are based on what they believe bettors will do. Yes they have a decent idea of how a team will play, no doubt. Is it scientific? No it is based on trying to get people to place bets and extracting money vs paying out.
Yes, and bettors think the Giants are one of the worst teams in the league.
How many years are we going to cling to "Hey, you never know"?
This is my point we may have improved meaningfully in the OL but that is not going to change the fact that we still need JMS and Neal to play well and the early (and not so early with regard to Neal) returns are awful. This team stinks and it really isn't even close. Sometimes "groupthink" is reality.
Yikes.
That being said, I'm a continuity guy and doin't think the answer is firing the group at seasons end, barring a complete collapse/embarrassment. If we're hovering around .500 and metrics are showing progress, I wouldn't clean house. By this rationale, Schoen and Daboll likely missed their opportunity to draft a high end QB, though.
Quote:
In comment 16516731 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
I hope they don't suck.
But to think anything other than they won't continue to build on their decade long string of ineptitude would be foolish.
Forget about the pundits - look at Vegas. They don't make those odds based on feelings or emotions - they know what they're doing.
They are based on what they believe bettors will do. Yes they have a decent idea of how a team will play, no doubt. Is it scientific? No it is based on trying to get people to place bets and extracting money vs paying out.
Yes, and bettors think the Giants are one of the worst teams in the league.
How many years are we going to cling to "Hey, you never know"?
Geezus...all I was doing was saying Las Vegas sets betting lines to induce bets. Are the original betting lines set close to reality. I said yes. But it is based on how they expect bettors to lay their money and how the houses can extract money from bettors.
They necessarily need to be somewhat close, of course. But telling people a team will be horrific based on LV is not scientific. It is a guess like all of us.
FWIW, I looked up 2023 and the Giants were 4800/1
That being said, I'm a continuity guy and doin't think the answer is firing the group at seasons end, barring a complete collapse/embarrassment. If we're hovering around .500 and metrics are showing progress, I wouldn't clean house. By this rationale, Schoen and Daboll likely missed their opportunity to draft a high end QB, though.
But if the Giants had drafted McCarthy, you could argue that their outlook for 2024 would even be worse right now.
These are quite the assumptions.
I guess we are going to see how that plan pans out.
Quote:
and it aligns with much of what GoTerps had been saying. This regime passed on taking a QB in a QB rich draft. Facts are that all of the moves to this point were geared towards win now, so we should expect a winning team.
That being said, I'm a continuity guy and doin't think the answer is firing the group at seasons end, barring a complete collapse/embarrassment. If we're hovering around .500 and metrics are showing progress, I wouldn't clean house. By this rationale, Schoen and Daboll likely missed their opportunity to draft a high end QB, though.
But if the Giants had drafted McCarthy, you could argue that their outlook for 2024 would even be worse right now.
IDK - After last year, I think I'm officially in the "anyone is better than Daniel Jones" camp.
Quote:
and it aligns with much of what GoTerps had been saying. This regime passed on taking a QB in a QB rich draft. Facts are that all of the moves to this point were geared towards win now, so we should expect a winning team.
That being said, I'm a continuity guy and doin't think the answer is firing the group at seasons end, barring a complete collapse/embarrassment. If we're hovering around .500 and metrics are showing progress, I wouldn't clean house. By this rationale, Schoen and Daboll likely missed their opportunity to draft a high end QB, though.
But if the Giants had drafted McCarthy, you could argue that their outlook for 2024 would even be worse right now.
There was a good discussion on the podcast yesterday on exactly this.
I for one do not think this is a "win now" decision to go with Malik over McCarthy. Never did. This is a build the roster while getting out from underneath Jones' contract decision.
Very good points were made in the podcast that changed my perception.
As discussed a million times previously, you can find QBs in every draft, and only a few, hell maybe even 1 or 2, will end up being good.
Giants did not have the ability to draft Caleb Williams or Drake Maye. They offered a trade for Maye, and it was declined. Chicago was taking Williams.
So...what then? Just take Bo Nix or JJ McCarthy if they don't think they fit the grade? That would be an even worse scenario than passing on a QB all together.
Instead, they took a WR who they think fit the grade at 6 and a guy who lots of folks think was closer to 1 than 6.
As discussed a million times previously, you can find QBs in every draft, and only a few, hell maybe even 1 or 2, will end up being good.
Giants did not have the ability to draft Caleb Williams or Drake Maye. They offered a trade for Maye, and it was declined. Chicago was taking Williams.
So...what then? Just take Bo Nix or JJ McCarthy if they don't think they fit the grade? That would be an even worse scenario than passing on a QB all together.
Instead, they took a WR who they think fit the grade at 6 and a guy who lots of folks think was closer to 1 than 6.
They put new rims on a car with no engine, and may not be around to put an engine in the car if they oversee a 4 win team
Quote:
and it aligns with much of what GoTerps had been saying. This regime passed on taking a QB in a QB rich draft. Facts are that all of the moves to this point were geared towards win now, so we should expect a winning team.
That being said, I'm a continuity guy and doin't think the answer is firing the group at seasons end, barring a complete collapse/embarrassment. If we're hovering around .500 and metrics are showing progress, I wouldn't clean house. By this rationale, Schoen and Daboll likely missed their opportunity to draft a high end QB, though.
But if the Giants had drafted McCarthy, you could argue that their outlook for 2024 would even be worse right now.
I'd argue it'd be a similar outlook, with 2025 and beyond holding more hope than it currently does. McCarthy wouldn't have to be very good to match Jones. Actually if his rookie year were similar to Jones I'd be worried we missed on the pick.
But the way it is now is misaligned, and it's likely that in a few months everyone is going to be pushing to do what they were saying before you couldn't: force the QB.