As much as the QB position is the face of a team and DJ has to take the heat that comes with the job the reality is our OL directly impacts QB performance.
The real MVPs and unsung heroes are in the trenches. The reality is they win or lose the games over the course of the season. Yes QBs will get the TD pass highlight but without consistent pass-pro or run blocking the offense won't perform. The OL may not make the highlight reel often but they directly impact most of the "low-lights" for the QB position.
Per ESPN our OL ranked 24th running the ball with a 53% win rate and 31st in pass-pro with a 67% win rate, yuck. If you strip our our lone stud AT who had a 92% pass-pro win rate we're ranked dead last #32 by a MILE!!!
I'm not saying DJ is without fault but he cannot do HIS job if the OL doesn't do THEIRS. IMO DJ can be a top 15 QB with a competent OL and the WR talent that we now have.
All the DJ hate(r) banter has given me a headache.
DJ vs OL, the truth lies in the middle. Offensive is a unit not one player, that gets lost often thanks to high/low light reels.
I think it’s clear he’s not good enough. But it’s ok to point to how awful the team was when he played last year as well - why is that not relevant? Because you say so?
It's tough to run an offense with that kind of OL.
Mark Collins was on Giants Insider after the season went down the tubes. He still follows the team closely. He said he'd never seen an OL play as bad as the Giants were. At any level including Pop Warner. He was seeing them do things that were almost unexplainable, showing zero football awareness. You just don't see that.
I'm fine with moving on if they think someone is a lot better than him. I'm not cool with just drafting a project and paying Jones 40 million and using capital on a lottery ticket.
You're kidding right?
No, sign, you're not. Now I understand.......
But he is being paid to do this and more. This isn't some project QB, he's taken up a portion of the cap that deems it necessary he play to a top 10 level. He's never come close to that.
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DJ was outplayed by a career backup and a first year free agent who we don’t even know if he can be a viable backup in the league. His sack per attempt numbers were almost double that of Tyrod Taylor. Can’t blame that on the O-Line.
the OLs they played behind were almost entirely different players. jones played 1 drive with a healthy thomas, none with pugh/phillips.
See graph - More pressures under 2 freaking seconds gets his head bashed in immediately after the snap but hes the problem lol -there goes the Holds the ball too long argument, there goes the cant read defenses argument, there goes the depends on run game argument, there goes the always injured argument since hes always running for his life after the snap.. Do we watch the same games? lol
BTW i wasnt a huge fan of DJ until i watched him keep working 3 head coaches 3 offensive coordinators 3 dif offensives -take the abuse by a shitty OL yr after yr and have no weapons aside from a talented but often injured RB yet keep getting up and getting in and end up dragging that lousy team to the playoffs in 22. Your damn right im a fan. the kid has balls -sell me your shares
The OL is like a car battery - below a certain level of performance the engine will not crank and the car will not run.
Can't really know what if anything is wrong with the engine of a car with a dead battery.
And like that car, there's thousands of internet "experts" who will chime in regardless. Whereas the actual mechanic wouldn't venture a guess without a functional battery.
1000% truth, great analogy!!
But he is being paid to do this and more. This isn't some project QB, he's taken up a portion of the cap that deems it necessary he play to a top 10 level. He's never come close to that.
I agree his contract is to high, we overpaid(a premium) for the optionality of getting out in 2-3yrs if it didn't work which we ultimately will this coming offseason.
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In comment 16518085 Chris L. said:
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DJ was outplayed by a career backup and a first year free agent who we don’t even know if he can be a viable backup in the league. His sack per attempt numbers were almost double that of Tyrod Taylor. Can’t blame that on the O-Line.
the OLs they played behind were almost entirely different players. jones played 1 drive with a healthy thomas, none with pugh/phillips.
See graph - More pressures under 2 freaking seconds gets his head bashed in immediately after the snap but hes the problem lol -there goes the Holds the ball too long argument, there goes the cant read defenses argument, there goes the depends on run game argument, there goes the always injured argument since hes always running for his life after the snap.. Do we watch the same games? lol
BTW i wasnt a huge fan of DJ until i watched him keep working 3 head coaches 3 offensive coordinators 3 dif offensives -take the abuse by a shitty OL yr after yr and have no weapons aside from a talented but often injured RB yet keep getting up and getting in and end up dragging that lousy team to the playoffs in 22. Your damn right im a fan. the kid has balls -sell me your shares
+1
3 seconds??? He didn't get much more than 2 seconds, which is ball snap--> 1st read--> sack/incomplete/int
With the OL/WRs last year the only pass he had a shot getting off was a 1st read short/underneath which all defenses knew as been document in multiple interviews.
You could argue early 2021 was the best stretch of DJ's career. Look at his game log up until he got hurt in Dallas. His Y/A was as high as it ever was during this stretch.
Link - ( New Window )
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I am very anti DJ but also don’t think 2023 was representative of his play. My problem is with his 2021 and 2022 seasons, which were not good enough.
You could argue early 2021 was the best stretch of DJ's career. Look at his game log up until he got hurt in Dallas. His Y/A was as high as it ever was during this stretch. Link - ( New Window )
I agree. 2021 when Glennon and Fromm came in really showed how bad that team was. The team at least presented as competitive with Jones.
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If you have an incompetent QB the line will look awful. Jones holds the ball too long, is indecisive, afraid to put the ball in contested situations, and is generally inaccurate. We saw the line *look better* when Taylor and DeVito were in there.
You're kidding right?
No, sign, you're not. Now I understand.......
It's a team sport. The QB has to help the OL out. Jones' dithering, holding too long, playing stupid, isn't helping matters with the OL.
2023 is very representative of Jones' play. You have to look at how he was deployed. In 2021-22 he was given a training wheels offense. Defined reads, take off quickly or dump off.
In 2023, you got to see Jones in a typical vertical NFL offense. Yes he would have done better with a better OL, but many of these deficits are ingrained in his play. He can't function in a dynamic passing offense that looks downfield.
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I am very anti DJ but also don’t think 2023 was representative of his play. My problem is with his 2021 and 2022 seasons, which were not good enough.
2023 is very representative of Jones' play. You have to look at how he was deployed. In 2021-22 he was given a training wheels offense. Defined reads, take off quickly or dump off.
In 2023, you got to see Jones in a typical vertical NFL offense. Yes he would have done better with a better OL, but many of these deficits are ingrained in his play. He can't function in a dynamic passing offense that looks downfield.
He rarely had the chance to look downfield and when he could rarely did they get open.
Not saying we don't move on from DJ after this season(economics/age/injuries/performance dictate it) but very few QBs could function/play to a high level with the hands he's been dealt
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In comment 16518099 cosmicj said:
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I am very anti DJ but also don’t think 2023 was representative of his play. My problem is with his 2021 and 2022 seasons, which were not good enough.
2023 is very representative of Jones' play. You have to look at how he was deployed. In 2021-22 he was given a training wheels offense. Defined reads, take off quickly or dump off.
In 2023, you got to see Jones in a typical vertical NFL offense. Yes he would have done better with a better OL, but many of these deficits are ingrained in his play. He can't function in a dynamic passing offense that looks downfield.
He rarely had the chance to look downfield and when he could rarely did they get open.
Not saying we don't move on from DJ after this season(economics/age/injuries/performance dictate it) but very few QBs could function/play to a high level with the hands he's been dealt
Baloney. TT and TD played better.
Maybe he'll catch on elsewhere and get a second life. We've seen it before. A change of scenery might do everyone well, if for nothing else, to just be over it.
I'm not sure about a change in scenery. A constant face full of green turf is the same in every stadium.
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I am very anti DJ but also don’t think 2023 was representative of his play. My problem is with his 2021 and 2022 seasons, which were not good enough.
You could argue early 2021 was the best stretch of DJ's career. Look at his game log up until he got hurt in Dallas. His Y/A was as high as it ever was during this stretch. Link - ( New Window )
He was killing it with Toney in the 1st half before he got hurt too. They were just about to score before he got hurt. If they scored there that is a different game, Giants were in that game until DJ gets hurt there. Now granted you can blame him for trying to play hero ball there and go in and score, but he was having a strong game to that point.
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In comment 16518352 Darwinian said:
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In comment 16518099 cosmicj said:
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I am very anti DJ but also don’t think 2023 was representative of his play. My problem is with his 2021 and 2022 seasons, which were not good enough.
2023 is very representative of Jones' play. You have to look at how he was deployed. In 2021-22 he was given a training wheels offense. Defined reads, take off quickly or dump off.
In 2023, you got to see Jones in a typical vertical NFL offense. Yes he would have done better with a better OL, but many of these deficits are ingrained in his play. He can't function in a dynamic passing offense that looks downfield.
He rarely had the chance to look downfield and when he could rarely did they get open.
Not saying we don't move on from DJ after this season(economics/age/injuries/performance dictate it) but very few QBs could function/play to a high level with the hands he's been dealt
Baloney. TT and TD played better.
You are clueless man. Thomas is the best player on the offense. DJ had Ezeudu at LT until the game he blew out his ACL. Discounting that, I can't even take what you say seriously, you are just all about hating on Jones.
land what about context? Do they apply when discussing “facts?”
The devil is in the details.
This is total fantasy but stranger things have happened. Two more years of agony might net us a true franchise qb. It would make a great story if this pans out and a good ole Manning leads the Giants to the promised land and I'm not smoking anything.
The Giants way is to get the first pick in the 2026 draft, after Manning is drafted by another team in 2025.
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In comment 16518381 EJNNJ said:
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In comment 16518352 Darwinian said:
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In comment 16518099 cosmicj said:
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I am very anti DJ but also don’t think 2023 was representative of his play. My problem is with his 2021 and 2022 seasons, which were not good enough.
2023 is very representative of Jones' play. You have to look at how he was deployed. In 2021-22 he was given a training wheels offense. Defined reads, take off quickly or dump off.
In 2023, you got to see Jones in a typical vertical NFL offense. Yes he would have done better with a better OL, but many of these deficits are ingrained in his play. He can't function in a dynamic passing offense that looks downfield.
He rarely had the chance to look downfield and when he could rarely did they get open.
Not saying we don't move on from DJ after this season(economics/age/injuries/performance dictate it) but very few QBs could function/play to a high level with the hands he's been dealt
Baloney. TT and TD played better.
You are clueless man. Thomas is the best player on the offense. DJ had Ezeudu at LT until the game he blew out his ACL. Discounting that, I can't even take what you say seriously, you are just all about hating on Jones.
I don't hate Jones. I just know he's bad. And I feel badly for him. It's not his fault the Giants are stupid.
The team around him also wasn’t good enough especially the coaching in 2021. I had no confidence in Joe Judge.
Discussion gets centered on the pass blocking aspect but often left out is the running game and the impact that has on the pass game.
Three game stretch you had the following RB production:
SF 9c/22y Sea 18c/39y Mia 22c/46y. 2.2 ypc. Horrific.
Terrible OL, unfavorable down/distance with questionable skill talent is not an optimal environment for any QB imv.
+1 Facts
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In comment 16518352 Darwinian said:
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In comment 16518099 cosmicj said:
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I am very anti DJ but also don’t think 2023 was representative of his play. My problem is with his 2021 and 2022 seasons, which were not good enough.
2023 is very representative of Jones' play. You have to look at how he was deployed. In 2021-22 he was given a training wheels offense. Defined reads, take off quickly or dump off.
In 2023, you got to see Jones in a typical vertical NFL offense. Yes he would have done better with a better OL, but many of these deficits are ingrained in his play. He can't function in a dynamic passing offense that looks downfield.
He rarely had the chance to look downfield and when he could rarely did they get open.
Not saying we don't move on from DJ after this season(economics/age/injuries/performance dictate it) but very few QBs could function/play to a high level with the hands he's been dealt
Baloney. TT and TD played better.
TT and TD played better once the line got settled and healthy and they weren't as impacted by playing experience with turnstiles of offensive lines like Jones did, but I don't expect you to understand the difference.
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however what often compounded the issue was DJ holding the ball too long. It didn’t appear that he trusted what he was seeing or his receivers ability to get a contested ball and so he would end up taking off with the ball or taking a sack. There’s not many Olines that can hold their blocks for more then 3 seconds and that is the key in DJs case. He’s not very adept at processing and when the heat gets turned up, he takes off on the ground. Think of all our successful QBs in the past. They had good pocket presence and could stand in there and get the ball in the hands of the playmakers. He just seems like he’s very risk averse now and isn’t playing with confidence IMHO
3 seconds??? He didn't get much more than 2 seconds, which is ball snap--> 1st read--> sack/incomplete/int
With the OL/WRs last year the only pass he had a shot getting off was a 1st read short/underneath which all defenses knew as been document in multiple interviews.
You missed my point. I know he didn’t have time, and that is the point. He needs more time. The point is he needs at least 3 seconds to scan and get the ball out. Olines aren’t blocking for more than 3 secs in many instances.
You sound like someone who knows ball 🙄
take 47 sacks, play all 16 games, and still throw for 4000 yards and 21 touchdowns.
Daniel Jones has still never done this.
I’m not rabid anti-Jones . It didn’t work out for anyone on the Giants last season . Early on -total regression . Daniel has one more shot . Most are saying it’s undeserved . Regardless , he still does .
take 47 sacks, play all 16 games, and still throw for 4000 yards and 21 touchdowns.
Daniel Jones has still never done this.
For the record, Eli had the luxury of throwing to 5th-year Odell Beckham Jr., who was ranked by his peers as the 23rd best player in the entire league.
DJ is no Eli, but Mara is right in saying we've done everything to screw him up, from playing behind a terrible O-line to drafting a finesse tight end with world-class-horrible hands.
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In comment 16518085 Chris L. said:
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BTW i wasnt a huge fan of DJ until i watched him keep working 3 head coaches 3 offensive coordinators 3 dif offensives -take the abuse by a shitty OL yr after yr and have no weapons aside from a talented but often injured RB yet keep getting up and getting in and end up dragging that lousy team to the playoffs in 22. Your damn right im a fan. the kid has balls -sell me your shares
You're mistaken; Barkley led the team, not DJ.
Secondly, you're suffering what many on here are suffering is that you have been beaten down so badly by such a lousy organization that you accept mediocrity and highlight because a player has balls/is tough that that should ahve soem type of high badge of honor. In other words, your standards of being a fan for a certian player are pretty low becuase you're so dpesperate ot want to like something that most players already are. -- Who gives a shit that a QB is "tough"/ has balls if he has been part of losing for so long?
To imply that he isn't part of the problem is cheerleading at its best if that is what you're doing. Stop being a cheerleader if that's what you think. At best he is mediocre.
To imply that he led the team and not Barkley highlights this.
You read SY often, don’t you? He mentioned that DJ while having to deal with bad WR's and an awful, pathetic OL, that DJ also is slow to read. And it isn't just him who has said that. Instead of cheerleading, isn't it possible that they are right? It doesn't mean DJ sucks.
Think of years ago when the Giants were really good and had had a very tough Defense. Unless the Giants were competing against a likewise Defense - would you have given a shit that the opposing QB "was tough?" You'd have laughed at it because the Giants were mnore likely winning while the other loser fanbase was cheering that their mediocre QB "was tough."
Let's stop waiving the pom-poms just because a player is tough. Most NFL players are “tough/have balls.” Winning is more important.
Agreed 👍
& I think even his biggest detractors as a QB recognize that the OL was a disaster last season before he went down. But Jones wasn't good himself. Both can be true.
I hope Jones comes out this season & lights it up & looks like an elite QB. Nothing would make me happier as a Giants fan. But I'm also a realist & I just don't see that happening, thus the resignation I feel towards this season.
This isn't like he's going into his third season. This is his sixth season. I think we know what we got in him @ this point.
& I think even his biggest detractors as a QB recognize that the OL was a disaster last season before he went down. But Jones wasn't good himself. Both can be true.
I hope Jones comes out this season & lights it up & looks like an elite QB. Nothing would make me happier as a Giants fan. But I'm also a realist & I just don't see that happening, thus the resignation I feel towards this season.
This isn't like he's going into his third season. This is his sixth season. I think we know what we got in him @ this point.
take 47 sacks, play all 16 games, and still throw for 4000 yards and 21 touchdowns.
Daniel Jones has still never done this.
Hmmm. HOF QB with 13 years of experience including two SB MVPs “raised” under great, proven NFL coaching performing under subpar surroundings. A still young QB “raised” by (choose your adjective)NFL coaching playing under surroundings he wishes could be considered subpar not performing….. yeah that’s a fair equivalence.
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DJ was outplayed by a career backup and a first year free agent who we don’t even know if he can be a viable backup in the league. His sack per attempt numbers were almost double that of Tyrod Taylor. Can’t blame that on the O-Line.
As a matter of fact that's exactly who it can be blamed on. Thomas returned from his injury in game 9 and with some additions the OL stabilized to some extent in the second half. Helps if you actually know what was going on.
Wandale was also out iirc. Barkley also missed at least one of DJs games. DJ played better teams. To say TT and Divito outplayed Jones is ridiculous. Look at the graph above. They were NOT playing with the same supporting cast.
If Jones is done it is because he is shell-shocked from the beating he took. He should sue the Giants front office for contributing to assault.
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To me
Don't you realize that you're allowed to hate any Giant as long as their name isn't Daniel Jones?
No one argues that Jones hasn't been dealt a bad hand, but I would point out that Tyrod played 3 games without Thomas in the line-up, and he played much better thank Jones did, and took far fewer sacks. Maybe, just maybe, Jones was part of the protection problem too. QB's have a lot of responsibility ID'ing blitzers and setting up protection.
And Thomas played the game vs LVR when Jones went out for the year.
Please refer to the graph above before you begin to suggest that TT was dealing with the same problems as Jones.
Hopefully the additions to the offensive cast in 2024 allow us to see Dayboll’s offense take the next step. We can then look back on it to judge Jones ability to run the offense.
Hopefully the additions to the offensive cast in 2024 allow us to see Dayboll’s offense take the next step. We can then look back on it to judge Jones ability to run the offense.
The premise of the tread is wrong from the get-go. SO guys like Mahomes and Brady had the best Trenches? It's one big coincidence that these guys are thought of as all-timegreat but at teh same time they were basically carried by the tenches?
However- yes this Giants team needs to upgrade their trenches big time. I reallywould have liked a 2nd rd OL or 2rd DL this past draft. Oh well . . .
The lesser the QB- the more essential it is to build the trenches (even if it were for Defense) They did address Trenches in FA-- but not at all in the Draft.
...when causation isn't clear sometimes you have no choice but to make conclusions based on correlation.
Well said, agree, a make it or break it year for DJ. I just hope he finally gets the OL support to show what he's really got for an accurate eval either way.
& I think even his biggest detractors as a QB recognize that the OL was a disaster last season before he went down. But Jones wasn't good himself. Both can be true.
I hope Jones comes out this season & lights it up & looks like an elite QB. Nothing would make me happier as a Giants fan. But I'm also a realist & I just don't see that happening, thus the resignation I feel towards this season.
This isn't like he's going into his third season. This is his sixth season. I think we know what we got in him @ this point.
Hey there! Enjoy Germany. Did someone steal your logon info? Very reasonable and respectful post from one who does not believe in DJ.
Changes have been made this year - just not at QB. I disagree with those who say that Jones cannot throw the ball well.I think he is actually a good thrower when healthy. I agree that his awareness sometimes seems to be lacking. Not seeing open receivers and sometimes holding the ball too long in those rare instances that he does have time. There is certainly reason to believe that receivers who can win and get open quickly, increased time to throw, and better play calling MIGHT help with those issues. I can also see that they may be ingrained flaws that will always limit his effectiveness. We don't know.
So while there is some reason to say off the bridge and be optimistic, none of us will be shocked if it does not go well. Achtung!