As much as the QB position is the face of a team and DJ has to take the heat that comes with the job the reality is our OL directly impacts QB performance.
The real MVPs and unsung heroes are in the trenches. The reality is they win or lose the games over the course of the season. Yes QBs will get the TD pass highlight but without consistent pass-pro or run blocking the offense won't perform. The OL may not make the highlight reel often but they directly impact most of the "low-lights" for the QB position.
Per ESPN our OL ranked 24th running the ball with a 53% win rate and 31st in pass-pro with a 67% win rate, yuck. If you strip our our lone stud AT who had a 92% pass-pro win rate we're ranked dead last #32 by a MILE!!!
I'm not saying DJ is without fault but he cannot do HIS job if the OL doesn't do THEIRS. IMO DJ can be a top 15 QB with a competent OL and the WR talent that we now have.
All the DJ hate(r) banter has given me a headache.
DJ vs OL, the truth lies in the middle. Offensive is a unit not one player, that gets lost often thanks to high/low light reels.
last year in the 4 games where the OL was under siege many of jones' negative play numbers were 2-3x worse than his career averages so i dont think this is a particularly hard nut to crack. the OL broke and it broke him mentally then physically.
whether he comes back undiminished next year mentally or physically or both however is an open question.
last year in the 4 games where the OL was under siege many of jones' negative play numbers were 2-3x worse than his career averages so i dont think this is a particularly hard nut to crack. the OL broke and it broke him mentally then physically.
whether he comes back undiminished next year mentally or physically or both however is an open question.
"whether he comes back undiminished next year mentally or physically or both however is an open question."
Agree, This is and whether the OL improves are the most import questions we'll need to answered.
Everyone must do better....or get replaced
This right now is my biggest issue with DJ.
Yes if you give him a better supporting cast his play will improve, this literally goes for every QB in the league.
However at this point in time there's no real evidence you can rely on him to be there every week, especially now that some of his injuries are things that can reoccur very easily (neck). Every sack he takes you have to think "is this going to be it?".
the OLs they played behind were almost entirely different players. jones played 1 drive with a healthy thomas, none with pugh/phillips.
As a matter of fact that's exactly who it can be blamed on. Thomas returned from his injury in game 9 and with some additions the OL stabilized to some extent in the second half. Helps if you actually know what was going on.
Maybe he'll catch on elsewhere and get a second life. We've seen it before. A change of scenery might do everyone well, if for nothing else, to just be over it.
But it ain’t this one
diagnosing that is the easier part than finding someone better than what he was in 2022. that's why they paid him.
The OL is like a car battery - below a certain level of performance the engine will not crank and the car will not run.
Can't really know what if anything is wrong with the engine of a car with a dead battery.
And like that car, there's thousands of internet "experts" who will chime in regardless. Whereas the actual mechanic wouldn't venture a guess without a functional battery.
Discussion gets centered on the pass blocking aspect but often left out is the running game and the impact that has on the pass game.
Three game stretch you had the following RB production:
SF 9c/22y Sea 18c/39y Mia 22c/46y. 2.2 ypc. Horrific.
Terrible OL, unfavorable down/distance with questionable skill talent is not an optimal environment for any QB imv.
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DJ was outplayed by a career backup and a first year free agent who we don’t even know if he can be a viable backup in the league. His sack per attempt numbers were almost double that of Tyrod Taylor. Can’t blame that on the O-Line.
As a matter of fact that's exactly who it can be blamed on. Thomas returned from his injury in game 9 and with some additions the OL stabilized to some extent in the second half. Helps if you actually know what was going on.
While correlation isn't causation, there's a stunningly high correlation across the entire league between injured OLT and QB performance (and W/L).
Like the internet mechanic who says I'm sure the engine is fucked - time for a new car - without putting a functional battery in.
This is total fantasy but stranger things have happened. Two more years of agony might net us a true franchise qb. It would make a great story if this pans out and a good ole Manning leads the Giants to the promised land and I'm not smoking anything.
Don't you realize that you're allowed to hate any Giant as long as their name isn't Daniel Jones?
No one argues that Jones hasn't been dealt a bad hand, but I would point out that Tyrod played 3 games without Thomas in the line-up, and he played much better thank Jones did, and took far fewer sacks. Maybe, just maybe, Jones was part of the protection problem too. QB's have a lot of responsibility ID'ing blitzers and setting up protection.
And Thomas played the game vs LVR when Jones went out for the year.
Daniel Jones is not Tom Brady, but when you have no confidence in your offensive line, then it changes how you play.
I think it’s clear he’s not good enough. But it’s ok to point to how awful the team was when he played last year as well - why is that not relevant? Because you say so?
It's tough to run an offense with that kind of OL.
Mark Collins was on Giants Insider after the season went down the tubes. He still follows the team closely. He said he'd never seen an OL play as bad as the Giants were. At any level including Pop Warner. He was seeing them do things that were almost unexplainable, showing zero football awareness. You just don't see that.
I'm fine with moving on if they think someone is a lot better than him. I'm not cool with just drafting a project and paying Jones 40 million and using capital on a lottery ticket.
You're kidding right?
No, sign, you're not. Now I understand.......
But he is being paid to do this and more. This isn't some project QB, he's taken up a portion of the cap that deems it necessary he play to a top 10 level. He's never come close to that.
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DJ was outplayed by a career backup and a first year free agent who we don’t even know if he can be a viable backup in the league. His sack per attempt numbers were almost double that of Tyrod Taylor. Can’t blame that on the O-Line.
the OLs they played behind were almost entirely different players. jones played 1 drive with a healthy thomas, none with pugh/phillips.
See graph - More pressures under 2 freaking seconds gets his head bashed in immediately after the snap but hes the problem lol -there goes the Holds the ball too long argument, there goes the cant read defenses argument, there goes the depends on run game argument, there goes the always injured argument since hes always running for his life after the snap.. Do we watch the same games? lol
BTW i wasnt a huge fan of DJ until i watched him keep working 3 head coaches 3 offensive coordinators 3 dif offensives -take the abuse by a shitty OL yr after yr and have no weapons aside from a talented but often injured RB yet keep getting up and getting in and end up dragging that lousy team to the playoffs in 22. Your damn right im a fan. the kid has balls -sell me your shares
The OL is like a car battery - below a certain level of performance the engine will not crank and the car will not run.
Can't really know what if anything is wrong with the engine of a car with a dead battery.
And like that car, there's thousands of internet "experts" who will chime in regardless. Whereas the actual mechanic wouldn't venture a guess without a functional battery.
1000% truth, great analogy!!
But he is being paid to do this and more. This isn't some project QB, he's taken up a portion of the cap that deems it necessary he play to a top 10 level. He's never come close to that.
I agree his contract is to high, we overpaid(a premium) for the optionality of getting out in 2-3yrs if it didn't work which we ultimately will this coming offseason.
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In comment 16518085 Chris L. said:
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DJ was outplayed by a career backup and a first year free agent who we don’t even know if he can be a viable backup in the league. His sack per attempt numbers were almost double that of Tyrod Taylor. Can’t blame that on the O-Line.
the OLs they played behind were almost entirely different players. jones played 1 drive with a healthy thomas, none with pugh/phillips.
See graph - More pressures under 2 freaking seconds gets his head bashed in immediately after the snap but hes the problem lol -there goes the Holds the ball too long argument, there goes the cant read defenses argument, there goes the depends on run game argument, there goes the always injured argument since hes always running for his life after the snap.. Do we watch the same games? lol
BTW i wasnt a huge fan of DJ until i watched him keep working 3 head coaches 3 offensive coordinators 3 dif offensives -take the abuse by a shitty OL yr after yr and have no weapons aside from a talented but often injured RB yet keep getting up and getting in and end up dragging that lousy team to the playoffs in 22. Your damn right im a fan. the kid has balls -sell me your shares
+1
3 seconds??? He didn't get much more than 2 seconds, which is ball snap--> 1st read--> sack/incomplete/int
With the OL/WRs last year the only pass he had a shot getting off was a 1st read short/underneath which all defenses knew as been document in multiple interviews.
You could argue early 2021 was the best stretch of DJ's career. Look at his game log up until he got hurt in Dallas. His Y/A was as high as it ever was during this stretch.
Link - ( New Window )
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I am very anti DJ but also don’t think 2023 was representative of his play. My problem is with his 2021 and 2022 seasons, which were not good enough.
You could argue early 2021 was the best stretch of DJ's career. Look at his game log up until he got hurt in Dallas. His Y/A was as high as it ever was during this stretch. Link - ( New Window )
I agree. 2021 when Glennon and Fromm came in really showed how bad that team was. The team at least presented as competitive with Jones.
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If you have an incompetent QB the line will look awful. Jones holds the ball too long, is indecisive, afraid to put the ball in contested situations, and is generally inaccurate. We saw the line *look better* when Taylor and DeVito were in there.
You're kidding right?
No, sign, you're not. Now I understand.......
It's a team sport. The QB has to help the OL out. Jones' dithering, holding too long, playing stupid, isn't helping matters with the OL.
2023 is very representative of Jones' play. You have to look at how he was deployed. In 2021-22 he was given a training wheels offense. Defined reads, take off quickly or dump off.
In 2023, you got to see Jones in a typical vertical NFL offense. Yes he would have done better with a better OL, but many of these deficits are ingrained in his play. He can't function in a dynamic passing offense that looks downfield.
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I am very anti DJ but also don’t think 2023 was representative of his play. My problem is with his 2021 and 2022 seasons, which were not good enough.
2023 is very representative of Jones' play. You have to look at how he was deployed. In 2021-22 he was given a training wheels offense. Defined reads, take off quickly or dump off.
In 2023, you got to see Jones in a typical vertical NFL offense. Yes he would have done better with a better OL, but many of these deficits are ingrained in his play. He can't function in a dynamic passing offense that looks downfield.
He rarely had the chance to look downfield and when he could rarely did they get open.
Not saying we don't move on from DJ after this season(economics/age/injuries/performance dictate it) but very few QBs could function/play to a high level with the hands he's been dealt
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In comment 16518099 cosmicj said:
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I am very anti DJ but also don’t think 2023 was representative of his play. My problem is with his 2021 and 2022 seasons, which were not good enough.
2023 is very representative of Jones' play. You have to look at how he was deployed. In 2021-22 he was given a training wheels offense. Defined reads, take off quickly or dump off.
In 2023, you got to see Jones in a typical vertical NFL offense. Yes he would have done better with a better OL, but many of these deficits are ingrained in his play. He can't function in a dynamic passing offense that looks downfield.
He rarely had the chance to look downfield and when he could rarely did they get open.
Not saying we don't move on from DJ after this season(economics/age/injuries/performance dictate it) but very few QBs could function/play to a high level with the hands he's been dealt
Baloney. TT and TD played better.
Maybe he'll catch on elsewhere and get a second life. We've seen it before. A change of scenery might do everyone well, if for nothing else, to just be over it.
I'm not sure about a change in scenery. A constant face full of green turf is the same in every stadium.
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I am very anti DJ but also don’t think 2023 was representative of his play. My problem is with his 2021 and 2022 seasons, which were not good enough.
You could argue early 2021 was the best stretch of DJ's career. Look at his game log up until he got hurt in Dallas. His Y/A was as high as it ever was during this stretch. Link - ( New Window )
He was killing it with Toney in the 1st half before he got hurt too. They were just about to score before he got hurt. If they scored there that is a different game, Giants were in that game until DJ gets hurt there. Now granted you can blame him for trying to play hero ball there and go in and score, but he was having a strong game to that point.
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In comment 16518352 Darwinian said:
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In comment 16518099 cosmicj said:
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I am very anti DJ but also don’t think 2023 was representative of his play. My problem is with his 2021 and 2022 seasons, which were not good enough.
2023 is very representative of Jones' play. You have to look at how he was deployed. In 2021-22 he was given a training wheels offense. Defined reads, take off quickly or dump off.
In 2023, you got to see Jones in a typical vertical NFL offense. Yes he would have done better with a better OL, but many of these deficits are ingrained in his play. He can't function in a dynamic passing offense that looks downfield.
He rarely had the chance to look downfield and when he could rarely did they get open.
Not saying we don't move on from DJ after this season(economics/age/injuries/performance dictate it) but very few QBs could function/play to a high level with the hands he's been dealt
Baloney. TT and TD played better.
You are clueless man. Thomas is the best player on the offense. DJ had Ezeudu at LT until the game he blew out his ACL. Discounting that, I can't even take what you say seriously, you are just all about hating on Jones.
land what about context? Do they apply when discussing “facts?”
The devil is in the details.
This is total fantasy but stranger things have happened. Two more years of agony might net us a true franchise qb. It would make a great story if this pans out and a good ole Manning leads the Giants to the promised land and I'm not smoking anything.
The Giants way is to get the first pick in the 2026 draft, after Manning is drafted by another team in 2025.