It's a fascinating topic to me as a fan in general.
During games I'm always rooting for the team to win, no matter the cost or benefit. Before and after the game, I'm more reasoned on what outcome is objectively best.
For instance, I 100% reject the hocus pocus notion that trying hard and winning meaningless games magically carries over to the next year. Or that treating meaningless games as exhibitions solicits a magical curse from the gods.
This year, I can't shake the idea that I would rather Daniel Jones unequivocally show he's not the answer, than tread water. I have no problem acknowledging I would rather the team go 3-14 than 7-10.
I'm perfectly comfortable with hoping players or coaches I don't think will ever be good, just prove it once and for all and move on.
Once the games start, I'll be rooting for Jones every second of every game. But between the games, I admit I have no confidence in him and hope he gets benched.
Anyone else feel that way?
Yes, on paper TT is a better QB. But what good does it do to re-sign a guy that more injured than the starter?
I admit to not knowing Lock much. But if the backup gets injured every time he steps on the field what good is he?
In 2020 when Lock got his chance he had a 57.3% completion rate, a 68.9% on target rate, and a 22,9% off target rate. All of those were worst among starters in the NFL.
You're going to love Drew Lock.
Over the past 15 months the Giants have picked more Jones at a number of junctures.
- With the option to guarantee him 1/32M, they guaranteed him 2/82M
- With the option to retain a more accomplished Taylor, they let him go and chose the cheaper less established Lock
- With the option to draft 3 quarterbacks the league voted were top 12 prospects, they chose a WR
The only topic left up for debate is what they'll do next. As discussed endlessly the ACL/neck injuries weren't disqualifying, the availability of a bridge like Minshew was seemingly not pursued, the availability of a bridge like Wilson was seemingly not seriously courted, and the 3 aforementioned prospects not deemed good enough.
I think many believe investment in a player is binary, love him or waiting to replace him.
Jones breaks that construct, they like and appear to need to be blown away to replace him.
What free agent options?
Kirk Cousins
Yes….they need to have a conviction on a QB
They had one…NE wouldn’t make the trade
If you are happy with your QB…then you don’t try to make a trade to replace him
If Daniel Jones repeats 2022 do you think they'll be happy with him?
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In comment 16520930 Mbavaro said:
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In comment 16520923 christian said:
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They investigated the available options and chose not to pursue them. That itself is a vote of confidence.
They chose to go after Maye….did they not?
Takes two to tango on a trade
If you are happy with your QB you don’t try to trade up
If you are happy with your QB then you don’t spend the time and resources they did….did that not happen?
The QB they had a conviction on…they went after
It’s bizarre that you can’t see that their actions illustrate that they want an upgrade
And yet they still have him as QB1.
They chose their QB and it's Daniel Jones.
So….they clearly think the position needs an upgrade
They just weren’t able to get the guy they wanted
If they truly wanted to move on from Jones they would have done more than replace TT with Lock.
If DJ looks like the 2023 version, the only way I don't see BD being fired is by quickly pivoting to Lock. Otherwise yes, all that work they did this off-season will have been useless because BD (and maybe JS) get fired without drafting a QB.
My reaction to drafting Nabers was, and remains, we just flushed the 2024, 25, and maybe even 26 seasons down the drain.
In 2020 when Lock got his chance he had a 57.3% completion rate, a 68.9% on target rate, and a 22,9% off target rate. All of those were worst among starters in the NFL.
You're going to love Drew Lock.
Lovely....but I cannot get past TT's injuries. I liked him on the field despite bouncing balls.
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In comment 16521004 Scooter185 said:
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In comment 16520930 Mbavaro said:
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In comment 16520923 christian said:
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They investigated the available options and chose not to pursue them. That itself is a vote of confidence.
They chose to go after Maye….did they not?
Takes two to tango on a trade
If you are happy with your QB you don’t try to trade up
If you are happy with your QB then you don’t spend the time and resources they did….did that not happen?
The QB they had a conviction on…they went after
It’s bizarre that you can’t see that their actions illustrate that they want an upgrade
And yet they still have him as QB1.
They chose their QB and it's Daniel Jones.
So….they clearly think the position needs an upgrade
They just weren’t able to get the guy they wanted
If they truly wanted to move on from Jones they would have done more than replace TT with Lock.
If DJ looks like the 2023 version, the only way I don't see BD being fired is by quickly pivoting to Lock. Otherwise yes, all that work they did this off-season will have been useless because BD (and maybe JS) get fired without drafting a QB.
My reaction to drafting Nabers was, and remains, we just flushed the 2024, 25, and maybe even 26 seasons down the drain.
Huh?
So you are saying that they should have signed a free agent QB to replace Jones? Who would that be?…Cousins?
They chose the draft route (as they should)
They had their guy but you can’t force a team to trade with you
If they are so married to Jones…then you don’t try to trade up to number 3 to replace him
Did that not happen?
You believe you have better understanding of the QB than the team.
While possible, I consider this very unlikely.
I think you are trying to build an argument that you can still be a reasonable fan with this kind of take.
You can’t, It makes you a tool and you admit it. The lack of self awareness is staggering here.
If you can find a way in your mind to justifying being happy in a season that only wins 3 games because you think you know more than the people hired to run the team.
I only have one word for that.
That’s an asshole.
- If the Giants had a very low level of trust in Jones they could have cut him and signed a bridge starter like Minshew or Wilson.
- They could have signed a more accomplished back up like Taylor, Brisset, or Mariota.
- If they had a very low level of confidence in him, they could have taken one of the other three prospects the league voted were top 12 prospects.
Daboll and Schoen operate every day in defense of their job. They voted among their options he gave them the best chance to succeed, and they voted to not sign a serious threat to back him up.
They'll go through that same process next offseason. The only question unanswered is what they do next. They already gave him the vote of confidence this year.
You believe you have better understanding of the QB than the team.
While possible, I consider this very unlikely.
I think you are trying to build an argument that you can still be a reasonable fan with this kind of take.
You can’t, It makes you a tool and you admit it. The lack of self awareness is staggering here.
If you can find a way in your mind to justifying being happy in a season that only wins 3 games because you think you know more than the people hired to run the team.
I only have one word for that.
That’s an asshole.
How more reminders do you need to please stay away from threads I start? Your behavior is bordering on psychotic. In the 25 years I've participated in this community, I've never once flagged behavior to Eric. If you keep this up, I regrettably will have to.
In 2020 when Lock got his chance he had a 57.3% completion rate, a 68.9% on target rate, and a 22,9% off target rate. All of those were worst among starters in the NFL.
You're going to love Drew Lock.
I think people's confidence in Schoen/Daboll is way too high given their decisions at QB since joining are Taylor (fine), giving Jones a massive contract, and signing Drew Lock.
You only need to get the position right once, fortunately.
How more reminders do you need to please stay away from threads I start? Your behavior is bordering on psychotic. In the 25 years I've participated in this community, I've never once flagged behavior to Eric. If you keep this up, I regrettably will have to.
I learned a long time ago that we don't all need to open every thread.
But, to be fair, we also don't need to read every response.
In 2020 when Lock got his chance he had a 57.3% completion rate, a 68.9% on target rate, and a 22,9% off target rate. All of those were worst among starters in the NFL.
You're going to love Drew Lock.
I think people's confidence in Schoen/Daboll is way too high given their decisions at QB since joining are Taylor (fine), giving Jones a massive contract, and signing Drew Lock.
You only need to get the position right once, fortunately.
I largely agree.
I think a decent way to look at is: the last times Jones poked his head above water they gave him 2/82M.
What will he have to do to get another 1/30M? What we have to do to earn another 2/78M?
yeah, thought that this morning - the Every Ready Bunny of BBI!
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You do not, because fans don't control anything. All we can do is observe.
WTF does a fan rooting for wins have to do with determining the outcome? I don't know if what you posted is what you meant but if you did, that is a weird reply.
Look at it a different way.
You're a fan of a team that has had *two* winning seasons in 10 years.
As a fan, the *only* power you have is your own voice and your wallet.
Does any message get sent to the people running the place if all you do is sit and clap and keep it positive and root root root for the home team? I'm not sure that fans from the 70s would say yes. So no, I don't think everyone needs to root for every win possible. The only thing this franchise has ever been motivated to action by is public embarrassment .
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In comment 16521024 Mbavaro said:
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In comment 16521004 Scooter185 said:
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In comment 16520930 Mbavaro said:
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In comment 16520923 christian said:
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They investigated the available options and chose not to pursue them. That itself is a vote of confidence.
They chose to go after Maye….did they not?
Takes two to tango on a trade
If you are happy with your QB you don’t try to trade up
If you are happy with your QB then you don’t spend the time and resources they did….did that not happen?
The QB they had a conviction on…they went after
It’s bizarre that you can’t see that their actions illustrate that they want an upgrade
And yet they still have him as QB1.
They chose their QB and it's Daniel Jones.
So….they clearly think the position needs an upgrade
They just weren’t able to get the guy they wanted
If they truly wanted to move on from Jones they would have done more than replace TT with Lock.
If DJ looks like the 2023 version, the only way I don't see BD being fired is by quickly pivoting to Lock. Otherwise yes, all that work they did this off-season will have been useless because BD (and maybe JS) get fired without drafting a QB.
My reaction to drafting Nabers was, and remains, we just flushed the 2024, 25, and maybe even 26 seasons down the drain.
Huh?
So you are saying that they should have signed a free agent QB to replace Jones? Who would that be?…Cousins?
They chose the draft route (as they should)
They had their guy but you can’t force a team to trade with you
If they are so married to Jones…then you don’t try to trade up to number 3 to replace him
Did that not happen?
I'm saying love him or try to replace him is a distinction with no difference since he's still QB1. If their only plan was a low chance play at trading with a team in need of a QB, that should tell you Jones is their QB. If they truly wanted him gone they'd have had multiple options to replace him, not just Maye or bust
I suppose as long as you're enjoying yourselves...
I'm saying love him or try to replace him is a distinction with no difference since he's still QB1. If their only plan was a low chance play at trading with a team in need of a QB, that should tell you Jones is their QB. If they truly wanted him gone they'd have had multiple options to replace him, not just Maye or bust
Sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't.
As much as I am tired of Jones, I am also not a throw the baby out with the bath water and just grab some unknown entity. That frankly is a stupid position. The minute you panic and start grabbing at random QBs, you are finished.
I am sure one day soon they will come across a guy that will supplant Jones(the sooner the better). But a random grab at some 5th round QB like Milton is foolhardy no matter what some blowhard says.
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I'm saying love him or try to replace him is a distinction with no difference since he's still QB1. If their only plan was a low chance play at trading with a team in need of a QB, that should tell you Jones is their QB. If they truly wanted him gone they'd have had multiple options to replace him, not just Maye or bust
Sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't.
As much as I am tired of Jones, I am also not a throw the baby out with the bath water and just grab some unknown entity. That frankly is a stupid position. The minute you panic and start grabbing at random QBs, you are finished.
I am sure one day soon they will come across a guy that will supplant Jones(the sooner the better). But a random grab at some 5th round QB like Milton is foolhardy no matter what some blowhard says.
Hard disagree. I've seen this reasoning used to justify keeping bad players and coaches because the replacement could be worse. Well they could also be better, in fact odds are the devil you don't know will vastly outperform the one you do.
I also don't think JS taking a QB would have been in a panic or a random grab.
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Last year Taylor had a 64.4% completion rate, a 80.7% on target rate, and a 14.5% off target rate.
In 2020 when Lock got his chance he had a 57.3% completion rate, a 68.9% on target rate, and a 22,9% off target rate. All of those were worst among starters in the NFL.
You're going to love Drew Lock.
I think people's confidence in Schoen/Daboll is way too high given their decisions at QB since joining are Taylor (fine), giving Jones a massive contract, and signing Drew Lock.
You only need to get the position right once, fortunately.
this may be wish casting, but last year when tyrod got hurt and devito was thrust into playing we all knew the season was over but in a few places i made comments along the lines of "it would be great to see daboll surprise us and actually field a competitive team the same way minnesota did with dobbs" - the fact that he did that to me is one of the more impressive things he's done here. last year very easily could have turned fromm-y at the end.
getting a career year out of jones is 1 data point, winning games against playoff teams with each of tyrod and devito are 2 more that start to form a trend of at least competence.
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In comment 16521059 christian said:
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Last year Taylor had a 64.4% completion rate, a 80.7% on target rate, and a 14.5% off target rate.
In 2020 when Lock got his chance he had a 57.3% completion rate, a 68.9% on target rate, and a 22,9% off target rate. All of those were worst among starters in the NFL.
You're going to love Drew Lock.
I think people's confidence in Schoen/Daboll is way too high given their decisions at QB since joining are Taylor (fine), giving Jones a massive contract, and signing Drew Lock.
You only need to get the position right once, fortunately.
this may be wish casting, but last year when tyrod got hurt and devito was thrust into playing we all knew the season was over but in a few places i made comments along the lines of "it would be great to see daboll surprise us and actually field a competitive team the same way minnesota did with dobbs" - the fact that he did that to me is one of the more impressive things he's done here. last year very easily could have turned fromm-y at the end.
getting a career year out of jones is 1 data point, winning games against playoff teams with each of tyrod and devito are 2 more that start to form a trend of at least competence.
This is a really good point. I'm a big fan of Daboll and am a little negative on Schoen. Daboll has done great work with talent I think is really mediocre.
Are player selection and player development separate skills, though? Meaning, can Daboll be great at maximizing a given player but not so good at finding the guy with the best celing? I really don't know.
This is a really good point. I'm a big fan of Daboll and am a little negative on Schoen. Daboll has done great work with talent I think is really mediocre.
Are player selection and player development separate skills, though? Meaning, can Daboll be great at maximizing a given player but not so good at finding the guy with the best celing? I really don't know.
thomas dimitroff overlapped with daboll in NE and said anyone who came from NE was very experienced with the player evaluation side of things because of how they operated (said daboll was also known to have a good eye there).
selection and development are interconnected imo, what i think we've seen over time is that picking good players vs super star impact types is kind of luck of the draw. belichek was generally a good drafter and always had more picks than anyone, but he didnt draft a lot of stars. buffalo also hasnt drafted very many stars though they have drafted a lot of good players. so far schoen's track record has been like that.
thats in part why im generally comfortable with trades for proven stars like burns/waller. though obviously you'd hope to get those choices right unlike waller (thats a move i blame on schoen not getting good intel).
One of my favorite examples is the rumor KC wanted to trade up for Paxton Lynch the year before trading up for Mahomes. The failure to get Lynch helped catapult Reid into one of the GOATs. But maybe Lynch would have been a little better under Reid.
Conversely, the Bills traded that Mahomes pick to the Chiefs--only to wisely trade up for Allen a year later.
One of my favorite examples is the rumor KC wanted to trade up for Paxton Lynch the year before trading up for Mahomes. The failure to get Lynch helped catapult Reid into one of the GOATs. But maybe Lynch would have been a little better under Reid.
Conversely, the Bills traded that Mahomes pick to the Chiefs--only to wisely trade up for Allen a year later.
another way to think of it is that a players developmentability (not a real word) is a big part of the scouting process (arguably the biggest).
"good on the board"
"hard worker"
"works like a professional"
"serious about football"
etc.
that was one of belichick's biggest player acquisition strengths.
im ok with schoen's draft record but i think he bought a couple of older lemons in FA with glowinski and waller in offseasons 1/2 where the pro scouting department dropped the ball since those were the 2 big adds of those offseasons.
i also thought letting love go was an obvious mistake and the barkley negotiation was mishandled.
ill be thrilled if a few of his draft picks make me eat those words, but that remains to be seen.
Put the Jones contract aside, I didn't think the handling of Barkley made any sense. We succeeded in 2022 in large because Barkley and Jones fed off each other on the ground. They should have been on similar timelines. And then they should have dumped Barkley at the deadline. The whole thing was a bit silly to me.
I like the Burns trade but you need guys who are elite and punch above their weight cap wise. Burns is a fine contract, but compared to Garrett, Watt, etc. it's kind of mediocre. Plus, I sort of question whether Burns is really in that top tier. We are competing to win championships, not to be 'good'.
The Giants cap allocation and championship window seems disconnected. I continue to be confused at what the plan is here and how that will lead to sustainable contention. Schoen had a bit of whiplash after the 2022 season, which strikes me as someone who lacks conviction in the quality of the roster. The self scouting seemingly continues to be bad here.
I can be persuaded with Schoen, he's done some good things, done some bad. It's not like Gettleman who I was totally done with by this point in his tenure.
one of the things that i think is most bizarre is how many team captains they've let leave without much effort.
love and feliciano walked after year 1 for very reasonable $ at positions where they could have still used the depth. they bizarrely handle the barkley negotiation.
in year 2 they somehow name waller and adoree jackson team captains. also let mckinney and barkley walk.
seems like they've either had some bad judgement on their chosen veteran leaders or bad judgement on who they've let walk, but it's hard to reconcile that they havent made at least 1 mistake or the other.
my most hopeful read from afar is that they got a little high on their own supply after year 1 and made some mistakes of inexperience that they corrected bc this offseason seemed better. the less hopeful outcome is that it wasnt actually better things wont get better people get fired and the cycle begins anew.
Gettleman was a wreck, thrashing around with absolutely no cohesive strategy. I don't view Schoen the same way.
Gettleman was a wreck, thrashing around with absolutely no cohesive strategy. I don't view Schoen the same way.
not to open a pandora's box but im pretty sure the only big difference between gettleman and schoen is daboll and light years better pr savvy.
If the operating expectations at QB are for a non-durable, limited passer, with good wheels, and a placeholder for what's next -- I give you Tyrod Taylor ladies and gentlemen.
Gettleman was a wreck, thrashing around with absolutely no cohesive strategy. I don't view Schoen the same way.
not to open a pandora's box but im pretty sure the only big difference between gettleman and schoen is daboll and light years better pr savvy.
And I'd go as far as giving Gettleman the lead in the drafting department.
If the operating expectations at QB are for a non-durable, limited passer, with good wheels, and a placeholder for what's next -- I give you Tyrod Taylor ladies and gentlemen.
jackson is still a free agent so it's not money that's stopping them. feliciano got almost the minimum last year and was on the market for a long time. they signed ashawn for twice as much after he'd signed. they paid campbell and slayton (non captain) as much as love and waller would have covered barkley. letting those guys was choices more than out of budget.
mckinney got paid but he's the one i think they were most correct to pass on paying. he is now the 12th highest paid DB including corners and i dont think his impact is anywhere near that.
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All fair--I'm super high on Daboll, down on Schoen. But not fatal, as you said.
Gettleman was a wreck, thrashing around with absolutely no cohesive strategy. I don't view Schoen the same way.
not to open a pandora's box but im pretty sure the only big difference between gettleman and schoen is daboll and light years better pr savvy.
And I'd go as far as giving Gettleman the lead in the drafting department.
it's close, gettleman had the 2 big hits with dex/thomas, schoen has had fewer misses.
not huge sample sizes but i think overall both would be considered average. schoen needs some year 3+ guys to breakout like dex/thomas, if they do then his track record will look better quickly.
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All fair--I'm super high on Daboll, down on Schoen. But not fatal, as you said.
Gettleman was a wreck, thrashing around with absolutely no cohesive strategy. I don't view Schoen the same way.
not to open a pandora's box but im pretty sure the only big difference between gettleman and schoen is daboll and light years better pr savvy.
I wouldn't go that far. Gettleman did so much dumb shit: drafting Barkley at 2, Solder, Golladay, Toney, etc.
Just a consistent comedy of errors. I don't think Schoen has had consistent stupidity the way Gettleman did.
In a "if resources weren't as constrained" world, I suspect they keep Slayton and Love, they sign Robinson and Keep Felciano, they acquire Burns and keep McKinney, they sign Singletary and keep Barkley.
I don't have access to all my piggies and fingers at the moment, but I imagine the sum of the guarantees of the players they lost + the guarantees on Taylor in 23 + 24 is south of 82.
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In comment 16522395 BrettNYG10 said:
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All fair--I'm super high on Daboll, down on Schoen. But not fatal, as you said.
Gettleman was a wreck, thrashing around with absolutely no cohesive strategy. I don't view Schoen the same way.
not to open a pandora's box but im pretty sure the only big difference between gettleman and schoen is daboll and light years better pr savvy.
I wouldn't go that far. Gettleman did so much dumb shit: drafting Barkley at 2, Solder, Golladay, Toney, etc.
Just a consistent comedy of errors. I don't think Schoen has had consistent stupidity the way Gettleman did.
again not to start a whole thing bc my intent isnt to endorse gettleman's failed era but golladay and waller by the end wont look so different.
solder was more expensive but at least gave them a decent season or two, unlike glowinski. will hernandez looks like chris snee compared to josh ezeudu.
toney was a disaster -- but the trade down got them the 7th pick that could have been garrett wilson or chris olave or kyle hamilton. instead it was neal, who at this point may end up a bigger miss than ereck flowers forget barkley.
so again not looking to whitewash any of DGs failures, more just looking to level set schoen. he's been better but mostly because of daboll getting better play out of players he inherited like lawrence, jones, love, slayton, thomas. not great personnel decisions he made.
In a "if resources weren't as constrained" world, I suspect they keep Slayton and Love, they sign Robinson and Keep Felciano, they acquire Burns and keep McKinney, they sign Singletary and keep Barkley.
I don't have access to all my piggies and fingers at the moment, but I imagine the sum of the guarantees of the players they lost + the guarantees on Taylor in 23 + 24 is south of 82.
last year keeping love would have cost less or = against the cap than campbell, ashawn, slayton. they chose those 3 players over him.
feliciano played for $2m. any team can afford a 2m player at pretty much any time if they are motivated to keep that player.
last year keeping love would have cost less or = against the cap than campbell, ashawn, slayton. they chose those 3 players over him.
feliciano played for $2m. any team can afford a 2m player at pretty much any time if they are motivated to keep that player.
They prioritized 4 players in 5-6 AAV range more than Love. In a less resources contained environment maybe Love is a 5th. They spent the vet minimum on a backup center maybe they spend +1M.
You spend your money on something. This is definitely a benefit of the doubt exercise.
If it wasn't a resource calculus, the alternative portends much worse.
What would have been better for the Giants, DeVito starts week 18 and reestablishes his confidence and standing with the staff in a loss, or current New York Jet Tyrod Taylor leads the Giants to a win?
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last year keeping love would have cost less or = against the cap than campbell, ashawn, slayton. they chose those 3 players over him.
feliciano played for $2m. any team can afford a 2m player at pretty much any time if they are motivated to keep that player.
They prioritized 4 players in 5-6 AAV range more than Love. In a less resources contained environment maybe Love is a 5th. They spent the vet minimum on a backup center maybe they spend +1M.
You spend your money on something. This is definitely a benefit of the doubt exercise.
If it wasn't a resource calculus, the alternative portends much worse.
my problem with schoen (as articulated above) is that he has made some bad choices. i am not absolving him of poor choices just because there was a very modest budget constraint (or giving him the benefit of doubt that the 5th try would have been the charm).
they werent event negotiating with love after FA opened and as far as i know never made him an offer, this wasnt a situation of his price going beyond their budget. he got less than they'd offered him in november, they changed their mind on him for whatever reason.
my argument isn't entirely love either, they have let a lot of guys THEY named captains walk relatively uncontested. at minimum doesn't that mean their choices of captains weren't so hot?
What's concerning is how few of his own hits Schoen has. Okereke, Thibs, Banks, Pinnock? With good signals from Robinson, Hyatt, and McFadden?
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All fair--I'm super high on Daboll, down on Schoen. But not fatal, as you said.
Gettleman was a wreck, thrashing around with absolutely no cohesive strategy. I don't view Schoen the same way.
not to open a pandora's box but im pretty sure the only big difference between gettleman and schoen is daboll and light years better pr savvy.
A clueless take.
Gettleman was an utter moron, whether he fell ass-backwards into Thomas and Dex or not. He had a ridiculously bad free agency record, nonexistent roster building strategies and poor transaction timing, and his lack of keeping up with NFL trends was as bad as any GM in any sport in the past century.
Schoen may fail and not be able to build a winner, but Gettleman had no chance. None. And it was obvious his first couple of months in the saddle with Solder coming on board and wasting that immensely valued draft slot on a RB. Nonsensical contract negotiation processes with Leonard Williams, several overvalued veteran WRs and sticking us with Daniel Jones only dragged out his idiocy.
If Schoen dies on the vine, it isn’t because his general thought-processes about football every year were flawed. It is predominately because he made an F-graded devision on a C-graded QB that you thought was an A-graded contract.
What's concerning is how few of his own hits Schoen has. Okereke, Thibs, Banks, Pinnock? With good signals from Robinson, Hyatt, and McFadden?
i think the first year it was a vote last year when they named 10 the coaches chose.
id add belinger as a hit. they havent cut any of their draft picks yet so they all have a chance. 14/18 have started at least a game. riley, owens, beavers, gray the 4 that havent.
Giants vote team captains for 2023 season - ( New Window )
he and daboll are both centerstage, thats why im hoping for as many good outcomes for both of them as possible. if any change is necessary after this year it's going to come with a lot more breakage than any single bad contract or bad draft pick.