It's a fascinating topic to me as a fan in general.
During games I'm always rooting for the team to win, no matter the cost or benefit. Before and after the game, I'm more reasoned on what outcome is objectively best.
For instance, I 100% reject the hocus pocus notion that trying hard and winning meaningless games magically carries over to the next year. Or that treating meaningless games as exhibitions solicits a magical curse from the gods.
This year, I can't shake the idea that I would rather Daniel Jones unequivocally show he's not the answer, than tread water. I have no problem acknowledging I would rather the team go 3-14 than 7-10.
I'm perfectly comfortable with hoping players or coaches I don't think will ever be good, just prove it once and for all and move on.
Once the games start, I'll be rooting for Jones every second of every game. But between the games, I admit I have no confidence in him and hope he gets benched.
Anyone else feel that way?
The one caveat I have, I think Brian Daboll is a good coach. If you want him to be here long term, it won't happen at 3-14. It probably does happen at 7-10.
3-14 likely leads to another organizational reset beyond moving off Jones.
Do you think winning more games than Washington made the Giants scouting process better? Or was it luck and it saved them from themselves?
If the Giants had the 2nd pick do you think they would have chosen Young or Thomas?
Regardless of what you want to say about this regime, Schoen has had some lousy luck:
--2 top 10 picks in 2022 with no QB to take.
--Won just enough games to be out of Maye/Daniels territory.
Any angst towards Schoen is about the Jones contract after John Mara, Chris Mara & Steve Tisch all fawned over him publicly after a playoff win and he was declared their "franchise QB." And, passing on McCarthy, Penix & Nix at 6.
Anything else is insignificant.
I'm fearful a tread water season will lead to another year of Jones at QB. Which will lead to another tread water season and another year of Jones.
As much as I like Daboll, and I truly do, I'd rather risk losing him if it means figuring out once and for who Jones is.
Here's another question. If Daboll is fired by NYG, does he get another head coaching job?
I prefer losses at the end of lost seasons - last year being a perfect example. If nothing else, for the trade value of those higher picks. Imagine if the Giants selected third in this past draft and didn't love Drake Maye and/or didn't want a QB - could've gotten a fortune for that pick in a trade.
If Schoen is in over his head, he's a perfect example of benefiting from learning who he is now.
Well the got swept by TB in the last series before the TDL and they actually were sellers and they brought up the young guns. And in 2017 they would get to game 7 of the ALCS against the Houston *'s
Hal would later admit that that series loss to the Rays is what motivated him to okay selling.
This is a really long way of saying I'm all for short term pain for long term gain. I do not subscribe to any magic beans theory about teams getting better, and the last place I want to see any of my teams is on the treadmill of mediocrity
I get a kick out of it too. It's tantamount to saying you believe the Giants are stupid, and the only way they'll make a good decision is if they get lucky and a more stupid team is drafting ahead of them. That's a hell of a strategy.
I think Daboll is a good coach, and I think Jones is a bottom end starter. So I think a 7-10 season is absolutely in the cards. I don't think a Daboll coached team, unless a player like Lock or DeVito starts 12-15 games will lose 14 games.
If Schoen is in over his head, he's a perfect example of benefiting from learning who he is now.
He's had some misses but every GM does. Poles traded a high 2 for Claypool. I compare him to Poles because they were both hired at the same time.
It comes down to QB. A roster looks a lot better when the QB play is competent. But, Schoen/Daboll did miss on the OL last year. No excusing that.
As for Neal, he was a chalk pick by just about any pundit. No one and I mean no one felt that pick was a reach or not a good one. That's just bad luck to this point.
Sometimes in life you play your best to learn and make mistakes, to ultimately win.
This happens in business all of the time. Startups choose to lose money and not worry about profitability. They focus on testing things out, failing fast, and proving concepts. Only then do they worry about traditional measurable results.
The path to winning often times requires intentional losing.
But, as anything, there’s a massive human human element to this.
There are roughly 200 players, coaches, assistants, trainers who shuffle in and out of the facility every week working and grinding towards something. From an outsiders perspective, it’s hard for me to dismiss any effect winning a game (which is really the only group metric of success for these people) may have on the collective group.
I’m just as tired as sucking as everyone else. I just don’t think we are in a position to make this argument.
My guess is on a professional team, if a really average player is compensated really well, and continues to be average that can hurt motivation among others.
I wonder how the others plays would feel and react if Jones was benched and DeVito got to start. Would they prefer a 3-14 season knowing the staff was turning over every stone to try and build, or ride out an average season with Jones?
I think this it precisely. I think Daboll is a good coach and Jones is a bottom end starter. I think 2022 is the best outcome this combination will achieve.
This is always the easy example. But look at all the stars they've missed out on by one spot. Ogden is the easiest example. But to show even more how missing by one spot can be devastating, imagine what the Giants last four decades would have been like if NO took Taylor.
Or look at the 2016 draft and see the three guys they missed out on by one game. Then there was Toney instead of Devontea Smith.
I prefer losses at the end of lost seasons - last year being a perfect example. If nothing else, for the trade value of those higher picks. Imagine if the Giants selected third in this past draft and didn't love Drake Maye and/or didn't want a QB - could've gotten a fortune for that pick in a trade.
The worst thing for a team is to win 7 or 8 games every year. Unless you get lucky that is a sure path to a long run of mediocrity. Would the people who say always pull for the win have been happy if the Giants had won 2 more games in 2000 and missed out on Manning (or Roethlisberger)?
When on a losing team, wins keep the team from falling apart during the season.
Coaches have to keep trying.
Players are not on guaranteed contracts; they have to keep proving thar they belong in the league. They have to keep trying.
Our external perspective does not matter.
The GMs contingency plans are exactly that: contingent.
Would you rather Daniel Jones and Brian Daboll be the head coach and quarterback in 2025 and 2026, or a different pair?
When on a losing team, wins keep the team from falling apart during the season.
Coaches have to keep trying.
Players are not on guaranteed contracts; they have to keep proving thar they belong in the league. They have to keep trying.
The Giants were eliminated going into week 18 last year versus the Eagles.
The staff chose to start Taylor presumably because he gave them the best chance to win.
Do you think the team would have fallen apart and jobs would have been lost if they started DeVito?
Taylor was not under contract for 2024 and DeVito was. Wouldn't it have made more sense to develop him more, even if the chance of winning was lower?
The Chase Young stuff is a great example of the serendipity of the draft. But imagine if the Bengals won two more games and WAS got Burrow instead of Young. Sometimes losing is good. Probabilistically, you're more likely to get a better player the higher you draft. So I would have preferred to lose more last season.
My guess is on a professional team, if a really average player is compensated really well, and continues to be average that can hurt motivation among others.
I wonder how the others plays would feel and react if Jones was benched and DeVito got to start. Would they prefer a 3-14 season knowing the staff was turning over every stone to try and build, or ride out an average season with Jones?
What % of those 200 know there’s a strong chance they are either with another organization the next year or out of the league altogether. They aren’t going to rally around tanking for draft positions.
Deft FO maneuvering and some luck are what put teams in a position to strike when the iron is hot in the draft. Giants got unlucky in 22 with 2 top 10 picks in a seemingly no QB draft. Bad FO moves (not accumulating draft capital to maybe be able to trade into top 3) and bad luck struck this year. Not to mention, they still could have taken a QB that other teams deemed worthy of a top 12 pick and chose not to.
There’s lot of blame, but not tanking isn’t the problem to me.
Yes, I think the Giants would have sat there and taken Young. I don't have any inside information, obviously, but my recollection is that hype train was fast.
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One, obviously was resigning Daniel Jones. Let’s not try to dismantle this team again, or we may be waiting another 5 to 10 years.
Would you rather Daniel Jones and Brian Daboll be the head coach and quarterback in 2025 and 2026, or a different pair?
To answer your question, I would rather keep Brian Daboll and give him the opportunity to mold a brand spanking new quarterback next year with better weapons and a better offensive line. By no means do I want to have Daniel Jones Continue on into 2025. It’s mostly because of the injuries.
Win and win a lot. I am not looking for top picks and blowing this thing up again.
I hope Jones goes to the HOF, I am sick of losing and I don't care how we win as long as we win. This attitude that we hope Jones sucks and we earn a top pick is a miserable way to look at it. You can say Jones might not be the guy and I am not sure he is but I hope he is, we need to win more than we lose this season.
The Chase Young stuff is a great example of the serendipity of the draft. But imagine if the Bengals won two more games and WAS got Burrow instead of Young. Sometimes losing is good. Probabilistically, you're more likely to get a better player the higher you draft. So I would have preferred to lose more last season.
Washington had no QB and they passed on Tua and Herbert. That isn't discussed enough.
Let's hope the Giants didn't make the same mistake this year.
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Yes. I don't root against the team, of course, but I am pretty emotionless one way or the other once we're out of it.
The Chase Young stuff is a great example of the serendipity of the draft. But imagine if the Bengals won two more games and WAS got Burrow instead of Young. Sometimes losing is good. Probabilistically, you're more likely to get a better player the higher you draft. So I would have preferred to lose more last season.
Washington had no QB and they passed on Tua and Herbert. That isn't discussed enough.
Let's hope the Giants didn't make the same mistake this year.
Great point, Sean. Maybe if they won those games against the Giants, Herbert is a Commander.
We are not magically getting a new QB at this point. Hope that DJ is a good QB with a better cast to work with. The idea that he can’t win is stupid as well. They won in 2022 with a terrible roster. 2023 was just the worst start against a very tough schedule, the whole team played poorly.
If you are hoping that DJ becomes a top 5 QB is not being realistic. I think he can be a good QB in this league. This is his last shot to prove that with the Giants. I don’t get the concept of rooting to lose before the season starts. Lots can happen between now and then.
In any event, I root for the team to win until they are eliminated from the playoffs. At that point I believe that any player who isn’t going to be on the team the following year should sit to allow a younger player to get experience and build for the future. It’s not to lose, it’s to prepare. I thought DeVito should have started every game at the end of the season. The young secondary guys should have started as well.
That’s my 2 cents
I would be more thrilled if Jones came out and played like Patrick Mahomes and proved he was the answer and the team was suddenly a contender. That just isn’t at all realistic. Then it is time to move off of him. That won’t happen at 7-10 and a likely mediocre QB class coming out in 2025.
If the team needs to go 3-14 to get an honest rebuild started, including the most important position on the field, sign me up! If Daboll has to go, that is the cost. I think he is a good coach but if you told me we could get Vrabel in next year I would take Daboll to the airport myself. He was part of re-singing Jones, having no punt returner, and bringing back Shep as a team mascot, so he is somewhat responsible for the continued ineptness of this team.
Logically, I'd prefer the outcome that expedites them moving on from him.
I know that violates the magical fan code, but I have problem acknowledging I prefer that outcome.
How that positions the Giants in the draft is a different point.
Logically, I'd prefer the outcome that expedites them moving on from him.
I know that violates the magical fan code, but I have problem acknowledging I prefer that outcome.
How that positions the Giants in the draft is a different point.
They're never going to move on from Jones. He's going to retire as a Giant at the age of 46. He'll have his number retired and own concourse named after him, and it will be a garden as well. The Daniel Jones garden with a big grass hedge (or whatever) in the shape of a big huge "8"
They're never going to move on from Jones. He's going to retire as a Giant at the age of 46. He'll have his number retired and own concourse named after him, and it will be a garden as well. The Daniel Jones garden with a big grass hedge (or whatever) in the shape of a big huge "8"
You forgot the small dainty tattoo Mara will get on the bottom of his wrist. He might mix it up and get a number 8. Should fit next to his Eli and SB ones.
Logically, I'd prefer the outcome that expedites them moving on from him.
I know that violates the magical fan code, but I have problem acknowledging I prefer that outcome.
How that positions the Giants in the draft is a different point.
Agree Christian. Does anyone really think one read Jones can take down elite QB’s like Mahomes in the big game? That’s the real question.
The discussion is about fans. Fans don't play.
While this may seem counter intuitive, it is the only logical feeling that makes sense.
Recognizing that we have no control is pivotal to our enjoyment of the game.
Believing that our angst regarding the direction, or rather our perception of said direction, is somehow meaningful, is illogical.
I personally like to take a long term view of what will bring sustained success and a chance to win more championships to the Giants. Therefore, in a lost season, I get aggravated at meaningless wins because a higher draft pick in theory contributes to the long term success of the team.
There are those that have the lens of season by season and sunny necessarily look beyond the current season of what outcomes may negatively impact the future seasons.
I don't think the Giants can win a championship with Jones, therefore, I think they are wasting their time with him and it gives a dim hope for the long term prospects of the Giants being able to compete.
While I won't be rooting against the Giants until the season is lost, I don't have high hopes that Jones is going to take the next step. My preferred outcome is one that gets Jones off the team but keeps Schoen and Daboll.
I am a firm believer in prioritizing QB over all other positions in today's NFL, hence my above position. With injuries it's impossible to surround a mediocre QB with elite talent and hope they stay healthy all year.
christian you seem to be steering everyone toward your POV with your replies to various posts - consciously or unconsciously. I don't think you are doing it on purpose - just an observation IMHO. Nothing nefarious.
Funnily enough, I will go into a late year games hoping or seeing a need for a loss for a better draft position, yet once the game starts I want the win. I cannot root for a loss - I can justify a loss afterward because of the draft but cannot root for a loss.
As to the Chase Young Bowl - it is not a banner waver. It is just the point that you never know what happens in a draft. They may very well have taken Thomas anyway at #2. IIRC, both Young and one of the OTs were the convo at that point.
But hoping for losses and getting those losses will have unintended consequences, too. Yes we want Jones gone and a new QB drafted. Most want Daboll and Schoen to stay(not all but most). 3-14 is an excuse to move on and the pitchforks will be out on BBI. Yet, winning may give Jones enough boost to stay and be semi-mediocre again.
Good thread...
The other issue is the exit NYG has off the Jones contract after this year.
There won't be consensus here until February of 2025 where we see the actions. My position is not that Nabers was about another weapon for Jones, it was Schoen/Daboll want a WR1 and this was the time to do it. I'd have taken the QB, but I'm not going to default to NYG wants Jones and no one else because they didn't take a QB.
As for the KOC/Payton argument - well, Nix was a very specific fit for Payton. Payton admitted he had no interest in any other QB. KOC let McCarthy come to him - did they even try to trade up for him beyond moving up one pick? I don't know.
And, NYG did try to trade up for Maye. Unless you believe that was a charade too.
The truth is likely to be far less extreme. Schoen & Daboll like Jones until they don't. Duggan came out with an article about how NYG needs cap space. If they are so bullish on the QB - restructure him. Then I'd really believe they love him.
I personally like to take a long term view of what will bring sustained success and a chance to win more championships to the Giants. Therefore, in a lost season, I get aggravated at meaningless wins because a higher draft pick in theory contributes to the long term success of the team.
There are those that have the lens of season by season and sunny necessarily look beyond the current season of what outcomes may negatively impact the future seasons.
I don't think the Giants can win a championship with Jones, therefore, I think they are wasting their time with him and it gives a dim hope for the long term prospects of the Giants being able to compete.
While I won't be rooting against the Giants until the season is lost, I don't have high hopes that Jones is going to take the next step. My preferred outcome is one that gets Jones off the team but keeps Schoen and Daboll.
I am a firm believer in prioritizing QB over all other positions in today's NFL, hence my above position. With injuries it's impossible to surround a mediocre QB with elite talent and hope they stay healthy all year.
Outstanding post. I agree 100%.
I don't believe this team will ever be a serious contender for a championship with Jones as our starting QB. I don't believe any "can't miss" WR or offensive lineman will change that without the QB. What I am rooting for, is whatever gets us a true franchise QB as soon as possible. So if the team gets off to a slow start and shows little to no improvement, I'm completely comfortable with hoping for bad outcomes. Until we get the QB, I don't give a crap about winning 7 or 8 games a season. I'd rather the wheels fall completely off, putting us in a position to get the best possible QB prospect without sacrificing premium future draft picks to move up for said prospect.
Once the QB is in place, I'll always root for wins because all other facets of the team are much easier to improve via the draft and/or free agency. As someone once said, until you have the QB, you're always looking for one.