Much the same when Eli went into decline and some fans only looked in other directions to explain the losing.
Which games was Eli personally and solely responsible for us losing? Otherwise factoring in "other directions" would naturally still be in the discussion.
I never intimated solely. Not a productive question to respond to anyway.
Stating that "fans only looked in other directions to explain the losing" does intimate that you might have felt some losses were entirely Eli's responsibility. So I asked. I regret if it bothers you that I addressed your statement as a stand-alone comment and not in the context of the existing discussion. I appreciate Snorkels making it clear that you overstated the effect of Eli's "decline" by attempting to swipe away the viability of allowing for other factors.
So we supposedly have fans who want Jones to succeed more than they want the team to ... and other fans who feel success by Jones can only signal ongoing mediocrity at best for the team. Personally, I find it more tolerable, this time of year, to listen to the optimists. It only seems to take one or two DJ supporters to bring out a boatload of DJ critics (not that I'm carefully counting). I'm in the middle; I can wait and see what happens from this September into next January -- without then projecting what the effect of that will be farther down the road. It reminds me of my friend who came in to work in late January 1987 all worried about how winning the Super Bowl was likely to make things tough going forward. Thankfully, my emotional welfare doesn't require that the Giants be a perennial winner as long as they can be a fairly regular one.
My comment most certainly does not intimate that I felt some losses were entirely Eli's responsibility. Nor do I think that way.
I also didn't overstate Eli's decline whether you and Snork think so doesn't follow the . Eli's decline was begun to be noticed in 2016 and dragged on for several painful years, mostly because of the inaction of several in the organization. In fact, as a big fan of Eli's, it was sad to watch while the franchise did basically nothing to address the QB situation until is was so late that they became desperate and panicked themselves into a poorly thought-out DJ decision in 2019. That was just after a poorly-thought out decision to put Gettleman in as GM.
And go right ahead and listen to the optimists, hang out in the middle and play the wait-and-see game. It is your right as a fan. The guys running this franchise probably love that based on what the little they have been able to produce on the field for the past decade plus.
Lastly, referring to the NY Giants a fairly regular winner made my afternoon. Keep that type of comedy coming!
The point isn't Ojulari. Substitute any player with an uneven track record, and an average performance in their contract year.
This type of player isn't typically signed to a mega deal. And in the unlikely event a team makes that mistake, they don't typically attack their fan base for being upset.
And my point is that QB is a unique position such that the market is fundamentally different. And neither fans nor franchises typically get so bent out of shape about this with other positions. Kenny Golladay got a huge contract, he sucked, and we cut him. It happens. The emotions here are incredibly high in part because it's a QB. Some of the irrational Jones love/defense, however, I really just don't understand and probably never will.
I think the emotions are high because Jones was never the QB equivalent of what Golladay the WR was. At least Golladay had a couple of really standout years.
The point isn't Ojulari. Substitute any player with an uneven track record, and an average performance in their contract year.
This type of player isn't typically signed to a mega deal. And in the unlikely event a team makes that mistake, they don't typically attack their fan base for being upset.
And my point is that QB is a unique position such that the market is fundamentally different. And neither fans nor franchises typically get so bent out of shape about this with other positions. Kenny Golladay got a huge contract, he sucked, and we cut him. It happens. The emotions here are incredibly high in part because it's a QB. Some of the irrational Jones love/defense, however, I really just don't understand and probably never will.
I think the emotions are high because Jones was never the QB equivalent of what Golladay the WR was. At least Golladay had a couple of really standout years.
I agree with your analysis of Jones' play. But I don't think it's just that. I've never seen anything like this in my years following NY sports. Maybe I'm not old enough, IDK.
My point is Ojulari had an uneven first three years. If he has a nice, but well short of great season, no one will or call for him to be signed to a huge deal.
And in the event that improbable mistake were to happen, and he continued to have durability and consistency issues, no one would be defending the mistake.
That's an unfair comparison because QB is a much more unique position. And harder to find competent players. Hence why the market is different.
The real problem here is that Daniel Jones is just not that good but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it.
That’s your problem if you care about what others think. Some of you people feel everyone has to agree with your opinion . Doesn’t work that way. You must be in your twenties.
In comment 16523657 Mike from SI said: Quote: The real problem here is that Daniel Jones is just not that good but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it.
Just maybe the 'real problem is that Daniel Jones has some tools and the potential to be at least a halfway decent NFL QB if given some talent to work with, but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it'
In comment 16523657 Mike from SI said: Quote: The real problem here is that Daniel Jones is just not that good but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it.
Just maybe the 'real problem is that Daniel Jones has some tools and the potential to be at least a halfway decent NFL QB if given some talent to work with, but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it'
With the NFLs 6th highest cap hit at the position, I’d expect more than “halfway decent”.
In comment 16523657 Mike from SI said: Quote: The real problem here is that Daniel Jones is just not that good but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it.
Just maybe the 'real problem is that Daniel Jones has some tools and the potential to be at least a halfway decent NFL QB if given some talent to work with, but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it'
Quite the compliment. In year 6 you think maybe he has the potential to be halfway decent.
I am finally listening to this podcast. I am a little over ten minutes in. So far, unless you are rooting for Daniel Jones to fail, then you are not the ones being addressed. If a fan is rooting for one of their own players to fail then the content so far seems appropriate. For the record, I absolutely think there are fans everywhere of all different teams that actively root against players on their teams they don't like for whatever reason.
Yes, they are specifically talking about tools that would wish for a poor season or a “bad outcome” to get rid of Jones and or Schoen because he seems to back Jones, all because they think they are THAT good at QB evaluation.
Asshole, only description that fits.
The percentage of fans actively *rooting* for jones to fail
Is so small that it defies comprehesion that papa and banks would waste time while football camps are open to talk about it. There is a difference between expecting a poor result and cheering for it to happen.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
RE: The percentage of fans actively *rooting* for jones to fail
Is so small that it defies comprehesion that papa and banks would waste time while football camps are open to talk about it. There is a difference between expecting a poor result and cheering for it to happen.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
Thank you. I hate that so many take criticism as "rooting against" or "hate". There are very few Giants fans who want to see Jones fail. I have been overly critical of him, but as long as he is the QB, I hope he is lights out. And this goes for any player. I think overwhelmingly, any of us would rather be proven wrong about a player we are critical of than proven right. The latter is much more damaging to the team.
That said, for me, to be "proven wrong" about Jones, it has to be a significant improvement. A repeat of 2022 doesn't cut it for this team moving forward.
My point is Ojulari had an uneven first three years. If he has a nice, but well short of great season, no one will or call for him to be signed to a huge deal.
And in the event that improbable mistake were to happen, and he continued to have durability and consistency issues, no one would be defending the mistake.
That's an unfair comparison because QB is a much more unique position. And harder to find competent players. Hence why the market is different.
The real problem here is that Daniel Jones is just not that good but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it.
That’s your problem if you care about what others think. Some of you people feel everyone has to agree with your opinion . Doesn’t work that way. You must be in your twenties.
The entire focus of this thread is Papa & Banks commenting on what Giants fans are rooting for. In other words, this thread is explicitly about what others think. It doesn't affect my life in any way. But this is just an odd comment. And I'm not in my twenties although I wish I were.
I'm perfectly comfortable with my stance Jones is not good enough to warrant the investment or future energy and time spent.
Just because he's the quarterback doesn't make him any more special than any other player.
When the Giants have over-invested in the past on players like Solder and Golladay, fans were perfectly comfortable looking forward to the day those mistakes were in the rearview mirror. I view Daniel Jones the exact same way.
I'm perfectly comfortable with my stance Jones is not good enough to warrant the investment or future energy and time spent.
Just because he's the quarterback doesn't make him any more special than any other player.
When the Giants have over-invested in the past on players like Solder and Golladay, fans were perfectly comfortable looking forward to the day those mistakes were in the rearview mirror. I view Daniel Jones the exact same way.
I'm in my 40s, am I allowed to think that?
"Must be in your twenties" is funny since a lot us have been on BBI either over twenty years or near it.
Some of us haven't even needed a new handle, imagine that?
I'm perfectly comfortable with my stance Jones is not good enough to warrant the investment or future energy and time spent.
Just because he's the quarterback doesn't make him any more special than any other player.
When the Giants have over-invested in the past on players like Solder and Golladay, fans were perfectly comfortable looking forward to the day those mistakes were in the rearview mirror. I view Daniel Jones the exact same way.
I'm in my 40s, am I allowed to think that?
"Must be in your twenties" is funny since a lot us have been on BBI either over twenty years or near it.
Some of us haven't even needed a new handle, imagine that?
Yup. I've been a daily user of BBI since I was 18 years olds. And I frequented the site before that, when I was in high school.
I've had the same handle and the same mediocre contributions for 25 years!
RE: RE: The percentage of fans actively *rooting* for jones to fail
Is so small that it defies comprehesion that papa and banks would waste time while football camps are open to talk about it. There is a difference between expecting a poor result and cheering for it to happen.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
Thank you. I hate that so many take criticism as "rooting against" or "hate". There are very few Giants fans who want to see Jones fail. I have been overly critical of him, but as long as he is the QB, I hope he is lights out. And this goes for any player. I think overwhelmingly, any of us would rather be proven wrong about a player we are critical of than proven right. The latter is much more damaging to the team.
That said, for me, to be "proven wrong" about Jones, it has to be a significant improvement. A repeat of 2022 doesn't cut it for this team moving forward.
I have not seen any evidence that Papa and Banks are going after fans who are reasonably critical of Jones. I can't imagine if a fan said: "I don't think Jones is the answer at qb; yes his surroundings have not been ideal. However, I think given the amount of snaps we have seen from Jones with these surroundings, I feel I can safely say that Jones is not the answer at qb." Papa and Banks would classify that fan as the 'sector' of fans Banks was speaking of. If they did, then I would totally disagree. Again, to me, they are clearly talking about the seemingly growing number of fans who express their opinions of Jones in a personal tone or expressing their critical opinion as if that is the only opinion that is acceptable.
RE: RE: RE: The percentage of fans actively *rooting* for jones to fail
Is so small that it defies comprehesion that papa and banks would waste time while football camps are open to talk about it. There is a difference between expecting a poor result and cheering for it to happen.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
Thank you. I hate that so many take criticism as "rooting against" or "hate". There are very few Giants fans who want to see Jones fail. I have been overly critical of him, but as long as he is the QB, I hope he is lights out. And this goes for any player. I think overwhelmingly, any of us would rather be proven wrong about a player we are critical of than proven right. The latter is much more damaging to the team.
That said, for me, to be "proven wrong" about Jones, it has to be a significant improvement. A repeat of 2022 doesn't cut it for this team moving forward.
I have not seen any evidence that Papa and Banks are going after fans who are reasonably critical of Jones. I can't imagine if a fan said: "I don't think Jones is the answer at qb; yes his surroundings have not been ideal. However, I think given the amount of snaps we have seen from Jones with these surroundings, I feel I can safely say that Jones is not the answer at qb." Papa and Banks would classify that fan as the 'sector' of fans Banks was speaking of. If they did, then I would totally disagree. Again, to me, they are clearly talking about the seemingly growing number of fans who express their opinions of Jones in a personal tone or expressing their critical opinion as if that is the only opinion that is acceptable.
Who decides what is "reasonably critical of Jones"? Maybe you, ChrisRick? Jones is a highly paid quarterback for an NFL team. He is an athlete and a public figure. People get to say what they want about him. Athletes have suffered much worse public abuse than Daniel Jones has. Great athletes. I remember Yankee fans in the 70s shouting the N-word at Reggie Jackson at the Stadium.
Where is the line? Jones is a terrible quarterback and the Giants have botched the position for going on 7 years. The Giants are on the brink of squandering an entire decade due to obstinance and incompetence. This team deserves to lose fans because of their mismanagement. Have I gone too far? Since you seem to think you and Banks are judge and jury, I will wait for your verdict.
RE: RE: RE: RE: The percentage of fans actively *rooting* for jones to fail
Is so small that it defies comprehesion that papa and banks would waste time while football camps are open to talk about it. There is a difference between expecting a poor result and cheering for it to happen.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
Thank you. I hate that so many take criticism as "rooting against" or "hate". There are very few Giants fans who want to see Jones fail. I have been overly critical of him, but as long as he is the QB, I hope he is lights out. And this goes for any player. I think overwhelmingly, any of us would rather be proven wrong about a player we are critical of than proven right. The latter is much more damaging to the team.
That said, for me, to be "proven wrong" about Jones, it has to be a significant improvement. A repeat of 2022 doesn't cut it for this team moving forward.
I have not seen any evidence that Papa and Banks are going after fans who are reasonably critical of Jones. I can't imagine if a fan said: "I don't think Jones is the answer at qb; yes his surroundings have not been ideal. However, I think given the amount of snaps we have seen from Jones with these surroundings, I feel I can safely say that Jones is not the answer at qb." Papa and Banks would classify that fan as the 'sector' of fans Banks was speaking of. If they did, then I would totally disagree. Again, to me, they are clearly talking about the seemingly growing number of fans who express their opinions of Jones in a personal tone or expressing their critical opinion as if that is the only opinion that is acceptable.
Who decides what is "reasonably critical of Jones"? Maybe you, ChrisRick? Jones is a highly paid quarterback for an NFL team. He is an athlete and a public figure. People get to say what they want about him. Athletes have suffered much worse public abuse than Daniel Jones has. Great athletes. I remember Yankee fans in the 70s shouting the N-word at Reggie Jackson at the Stadium.
Where is the line? Jones is a terrible quarterback and the Giants have botched the position for going on 7 years. The Giants are on the brink of squandering an entire decade due to obstinance and incompetence. This team deserves to lose fans because of their mismanagement. Have I gone too far? Since you seem to think you and Banks are judge and jury, I will wait for your verdict.
I'm perfectly comfortable with my stance Jones is not good enough to warrant the investment or future energy and time spent.
Just because he's the quarterback doesn't make him any more special than any other player.
When the Giants have over-invested in the past on players like Solder and Golladay, fans were perfectly comfortable looking forward to the day those mistakes were in the rearview mirror. I view Daniel Jones the exact same way.
I'm in my 40s, am I allowed to think that?
Yes, apparently your age has given you enough wisdom to provide such analysis.
While I generally agree with your position, I do think the QB thing is part of what is driving the hysteria.
It's far and away the most important factor to success. When a team doesn't have a QB, as the Giants don't, you can make the case that every other conversation is moot.
RE: it is not possible for the QB conversation to be outsized
It's far and away the most important factor to success. When a team doesn't have a QB, as the Giants don't, you can make the case that every other conversation is moot.
Re-read what I posted.
RE: RE: RE: The percentage of fans actively *rooting* for jones to fail
Is so small that it defies comprehesion that papa and banks would waste time while football camps are open to talk about it. There is a difference between expecting a poor result and cheering for it to happen.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
Thank you. I hate that so many take criticism as "rooting against" or "hate". There are very few Giants fans who want to see Jones fail. I have been overly critical of him, but as long as he is the QB, I hope he is lights out. And this goes for any player. I think overwhelmingly, any of us would rather be proven wrong about a player we are critical of than proven right. The latter is much more damaging to the team.
That said, for me, to be "proven wrong" about Jones, it has to be a significant improvement. A repeat of 2022 doesn't cut it for this team moving forward.
I have not seen any evidence that Papa and Banks are going after fans who are reasonably critical of Jones. I can't imagine if a fan said: "I don't think Jones is the answer at qb; yes his surroundings have not been ideal. However, I think given the amount of snaps we have seen from Jones with these surroundings, I feel I can safely say that Jones is not the answer at qb." Papa and Banks would classify that fan as the 'sector' of fans Banks was speaking of. If they did, then I would totally disagree. Again, to me, they are clearly talking about the seemingly growing number of fans who express their opinions of Jones in a personal tone or expressing their critical opinion as if that is the only opinion that is acceptable.
Plenty of fans started off with the reasonable take, but were continually excoriated, bullied, and told how crappy of fans they were for not believing Daniel Jones was the answer. Yet those who still believe in Jones wonder why those who don't have such extreme takes after 5 years.
RE: RE: it is not possible for the QB conversation to be outsized
It's far and away the most important factor to success. When a team doesn't have a QB, as the Giants don't, you can make the case that every other conversation is moot.
Re-read what I posted.
I don't have any disagreement with you, either in this thread or pretty much anything else you have posted. I just pulled this one idea out, because it does get repeated on occasion. The idea is that Jones gets picked on because he's the quarterback, and there are 21 other starters and 56 players, blah blah. And believe me I know you agree with me. Or you are close to what I am about to say.
I don't have the mathematical background to show how important QB is relative to the entire defense, or to the rest of the offense, or to the other 21 starters. This is why I mention Vegas so often when talking about this, because that is a 15 billion dollar industry that has given a number (in points) to the value of positions. But my instinct tells me the QB is worth more than the entire defense - assuming the defense has some bad players which negates some of the value of good players. And he is probably worth as much or more than the rest of the offense.
So I am just picking out this point and saying in general, when you don't have a quarterback, there is no amount of conversation that is outsized. It's the whole enchilada. In terms of Super Bowl aspirations, the 2024 Giants season is already over. Sure there will be thrills and lots to talk about, and maybe some good surprises. But we're not a SB contender, so ultimately this season is done before it has begun.
Arguing about how fans should argue about the argument of whether
right now...they've got one of the hardest gigs in sports.
Being employed by a team that sucks and having to try and remain positive is not easy.
Kill em all you want - but they are in a tough spot.
The "having to try and remain positive" is a Mara mandate, not a universal job responsibility. These guys could absolutely take a more balanced position if they were so inclined, and furthermore, they could also dish out criticism/excuses a bit more evenly.
Every single member of NYG State Media are in the position they're in because they're shills by nature, not the other way around. They didn't learn to become shills when they arrived; they promised to do it in their job interview, just like Gettleman did with keeping Eli. This is who they are, just like this is who this entire loser organization is.
My point is Ojulari had an uneven first three years. If he has a nice, but well short of great season, no one will or call for him to be signed to a huge deal.
And in the event that improbable mistake were to happen, and he continued to have durability and consistency issues, no one would be defending the mistake.
That's an unfair comparison because QB is a much more unique position. And harder to find competent players. Hence why the market is different.
The real problem here is that Daniel Jones is just not that good but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it.
It's not just "harder," it's absolutely impossible to find competent players when you refuse to even draft any prospect at all at that position for six years.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The percentage of fans actively *rooting* for jones to fail
Is so small that it defies comprehesion that papa and banks would waste time while football camps are open to talk about it. There is a difference between expecting a poor result and cheering for it to happen.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
Thank you. I hate that so many take criticism as "rooting against" or "hate". There are very few Giants fans who want to see Jones fail. I have been overly critical of him, but as long as he is the QB, I hope he is lights out. And this goes for any player. I think overwhelmingly, any of us would rather be proven wrong about a player we are critical of than proven right. The latter is much more damaging to the team.
That said, for me, to be "proven wrong" about Jones, it has to be a significant improvement. A repeat of 2022 doesn't cut it for this team moving forward.
I have not seen any evidence that Papa and Banks are going after fans who are reasonably critical of Jones. I can't imagine if a fan said: "I don't think Jones is the answer at qb; yes his surroundings have not been ideal. However, I think given the amount of snaps we have seen from Jones with these surroundings, I feel I can safely say that Jones is not the answer at qb." Papa and Banks would classify that fan as the 'sector' of fans Banks was speaking of. If they did, then I would totally disagree. Again, to me, they are clearly talking about the seemingly growing number of fans who express their opinions of Jones in a personal tone or expressing their critical opinion as if that is the only opinion that is acceptable.
Who decides what is "reasonably critical of Jones"? Maybe you, ChrisRick? Jones is a highly paid quarterback for an NFL team. He is an athlete and a public figure. People get to say what they want about him. Athletes have suffered much worse public abuse than Daniel Jones has. Great athletes. I remember Yankee fans in the 70s shouting the N-word at Reggie Jackson at the Stadium.
Where is the line? Jones is a terrible quarterback and the Giants have botched the position for going on 7 years. The Giants are on the brink of squandering an entire decade due to obstinance and incompetence. This team deserves to lose fans because of their mismanagement. Have I gone too far? Since you seem to think you and Banks are judge and jury, I will wait for your verdict.
We need better PRODUCERS from MANHATTAN. JINKIES!
That DEPends.
I went to well over 100 Yankee games that Reggie Jackson played in
Is so small that it defies comprehesion that papa and banks would waste time while football camps are open to talk about it. There is a difference between expecting a poor result and cheering for it to happen.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
Thank you. I hate that so many take criticism as "rooting against" or "hate". There are very few Giants fans who want to see Jones fail. I have been overly critical of him, but as long as he is the QB, I hope he is lights out. And this goes for any player. I think overwhelmingly, any of us would rather be proven wrong about a player we are critical of than proven right. The latter is much more damaging to the team.
That said, for me, to be "proven wrong" about Jones, it has to be a significant improvement. A repeat of 2022 doesn't cut it for this team moving forward.
I have not seen any evidence that Papa and Banks are going after fans who are reasonably critical of Jones. I can't imagine if a fan said: "I don't think Jones is the answer at qb; yes his surroundings have not been ideal. However, I think given the amount of snaps we have seen from Jones with these surroundings, I feel I can safely say that Jones is not the answer at qb." Papa and Banks would classify that fan as the 'sector' of fans Banks was speaking of. If they did, then I would totally disagree. Again, to me, they are clearly talking about the seemingly growing number of fans who express their opinions of Jones in a personal tone or expressing their critical opinion as if that is the only opinion that is acceptable.
Who decides what is "reasonably critical of Jones"? Maybe you, ChrisRick? Jones is a highly paid quarterback for an NFL team. He is an athlete and a public figure. People get to say what they want about him. Athletes have suffered much worse public abuse than Daniel Jones has. Great athletes. I remember Yankee fans in the 70s shouting the N-word at Reggie Jackson at the Stadium.
Where is the line? Jones is a terrible quarterback and the Giants have botched the position for going on 7 years. The Giants are on the brink of squandering an entire decade due to obstinance and incompetence. This team deserves to lose fans because of their mismanagement. Have I gone too far? Since you seem to think you and Banks are judge and jury, I will wait for your verdict.
I am confident you and I could agree pretty closely on what reasonable criticism of a player is. My intent was not to say who can say what is reasonable.
People absolutely get to say what they want, I never said any different and as far as I know neither did Papa nor Banks. I also am not arguing nor comparing the treatment of Daniel Jones vs other athletes.
Where is the line? To me, at the minimum leave out personal attacks of a player when critiquing their game. I would say if a fan wants Jones to fail just because they don't like him then they have crossed the line of taking it personal. I can see a difference from a pov of a fan hoping that if Jones fails this year, he fails enough for it to be an easy decision for the Giants to move on. You certainly do not have to believe these fans exist.
I think you are off base with your assumption that I think I am a judge of who can say what. I never said what you or anyone else can say. I posted on this thread because I saw this podcast differently than most. I did not see Papa and Banks criticizing all or even most Giants fans.
RE: RE: RE: RE: The percentage of fans actively *rooting* for jones to fail
Is so small that it defies comprehesion that papa and banks would waste time while football camps are open to talk about it. There is a difference between expecting a poor result and cheering for it to happen.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
Thank you. I hate that so many take criticism as "rooting against" or "hate". There are very few Giants fans who want to see Jones fail. I have been overly critical of him, but as long as he is the QB, I hope he is lights out. And this goes for any player. I think overwhelmingly, any of us would rather be proven wrong about a player we are critical of than proven right. The latter is much more damaging to the team.
That said, for me, to be "proven wrong" about Jones, it has to be a significant improvement. A repeat of 2022 doesn't cut it for this team moving forward.
I have not seen any evidence that Papa and Banks are going after fans who are reasonably critical of Jones. I can't imagine if a fan said: "I don't think Jones is the answer at qb; yes his surroundings have not been ideal. However, I think given the amount of snaps we have seen from Jones with these surroundings, I feel I can safely say that Jones is not the answer at qb." Papa and Banks would classify that fan as the 'sector' of fans Banks was speaking of. If they did, then I would totally disagree. Again, to me, they are clearly talking about the seemingly growing number of fans who express their opinions of Jones in a personal tone or expressing their critical opinion as if that is the only opinion that is acceptable.
Plenty of fans started off with the reasonable take, but were continually excoriated, bullied, and told how crappy of fans they were for not believing Daniel Jones was the answer. Yet those who still believe in Jones wonder why those who don't have such extreme takes after 5 years.
I don't think it is good for any fans to behave the way you described above. I also don't think it is a good excuse to alter one's point of view from reasonable to unreasonable because of how they were treated by other fans.
There are def pro Jones fans that are unreasonable (my view of unreasonable to be clear) and aggressive with their takes towards other fans.
Many Jones discussions are simply tribes repeating the same thing over and over again.
RE: I went to well over 100 Yankee games that Reggie Jackson played in
Yankee fans in the 70s shouting the N-word at Reggie Jackson at the Stadium.
Is there any credible corroboration that this actually happened?
I personally witnessed it and didn't bring a recorder with me, I was 12. It definitely happened. You are free to disbelieve my recollection. But it was "a fan", I shouldn't have said "fans". But if I heard it once it must have happened plenty of other times. I probably went to roughly 30 Yankee games in the 70s. There was a lot of bad behavior at Yankee Stadium in the 70s and Shea in the 80s.
There was a lot of bad behavior at Yankee Stadium in the 70s and Shea
I am confident you and I could agree pretty closely on what reasonable criticism of a player is. My intent was not to say who can say what is reasonable.
People absolutely get to say what they want, I never said any different and as far as I know neither did Papa nor Banks. I also am not arguing nor comparing the treatment of Daniel Jones vs other athletes.
Where is the line? To me, at the minimum leave out personal attacks of a player when critiquing their game. I would say if a fan wants Jones to fail just because they don't like him then they have crossed the line of taking it personal. I can see a difference from a pov of a fan hoping that if Jones fails this year, he fails enough for it to be an easy decision for the Giants to move on. You certainly do not have to believe these fans exist.
I think you are off base with your assumption that I think I am a judge of who can say what. I never said what you or anyone else can say. I posted on this thread because I saw this podcast differently than most. I did not see Papa and Banks criticizing all or even most Giants fans.
We probably agree on a lot of it. I don't like when people use unsavory and vitriolic language against other players or public figures. It creeps me out. and it happens on this board and all across social media plenty. I would prefer if people refrained from using highly insulting language.
And there is a lot of insulting language on this board directed at other posters, which I find juvenile, unnecessary, and depressing. I wonder why people feel so comfortable calling another poster a POS over a sports disagreement. Maybe because it is anonymous they feel it is somehow ok. But you see several posters who raise the volume to 11, when someone dares to say Jones is bad. Does that bother you? Because I think it is a bigger problem to flame a fellow poster with vitriol than to insult a 100 million dollar public figure.
RE: There was a lot of bad behavior at Yankee Stadium in the 70s and Shea
right now...they've got one of the hardest gigs in sports.
Being employed by a team that sucks and having to try and remain positive is not easy.
Kill em all you want - but they are in a tough spot.
The "having to try and remain positive" is a Mara mandate, not a universal job responsibility. These guys could absolutely take a more balanced position if they were so inclined, and furthermore, they could also dish out criticism/excuses a bit more evenly.
Every single member of NYG State Media are in the position they're in because they're shills by nature, not the other way around. They didn't learn to become shills when they arrived; they promised to do it in their job interview, just like Gettleman did with keeping Eli. This is who they are, just like this is who this entire loser organization is.
They may be shills. But I would bet that at various times they have said the OL is bad, the WRs are bad, the TEs are bad, the running game is bad, various parts of the D are bad. But there is one special guy who we can't say is bad.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The percentage of fans actively *rooting* for jones to fail
I am confident you and I could agree pretty closely on what reasonable criticism of a player is. My intent was not to say who can say what is reasonable.
People absolutely get to say what they want, I never said any different and as far as I know neither did Papa nor Banks. I also am not arguing nor comparing the treatment of Daniel Jones vs other athletes.
Where is the line? To me, at the minimum leave out personal attacks of a player when critiquing their game. I would say if a fan wants Jones to fail just because they don't like him then they have crossed the line of taking it personal. I can see a difference from a pov of a fan hoping that if Jones fails this year, he fails enough for it to be an easy decision for the Giants to move on. You certainly do not have to believe these fans exist.
I think you are off base with your assumption that I think I am a judge of who can say what. I never said what you or anyone else can say. I posted on this thread because I saw this podcast differently than most. I did not see Papa and Banks criticizing all or even most Giants fans.
We probably agree on a lot of it. I don't like when people use unsavory and vitriolic language against other players or public figures. It creeps me out. and it happens on this board and all across social media plenty. I would prefer if people refrained from using highly insulting language.
And there is a lot of insulting language on this board directed at other posters, which I find juvenile, unnecessary, and depressing. I wonder why people feel so comfortable calling another poster a POS over a sports disagreement. Maybe because it is anonymous they feel it is somehow ok. But you see several posters who raise the volume to 11, when someone dares to say Jones is bad. Does that bother you? Because I think it is a bigger problem to flame a fellow poster with vitriol than to insult a 100 million dollar public figure.
I honestly did not post on this thread because of how fans speak about Daniel Jones. I just thought some fans were being a bit unfair in regard to Banks and Papa.
I think you are right in some capacity regarding people having internet courage because of the anonymity.
I am not bothered as much about how other fans speak to each other as I am about how I speak to other fans or how they speak to me (I would like to care a lot less about how others speak to me, but life is a journey. :)
I disagree with the premise of ‘toxicity’ re. Jones. ‘Toxicity’ implies to me that it is personal. It isn’t. It is solely based on him as a QB.
Which means with a competent supporting cast he can get the job done.
Jones has the best WR corp he ever had ON PAPER. Another swing at the OL repair. ON PAPER looks better than before with some evidence from previous play. A new OL coach, the GM alluded to that was the issue especially in regards to Neal. Even got some blocking TEs via FA to battle for that spot.
Jones spread the ball around trying to work the system and get the open guy the ball. He has to read the field to accomplish that. All the while with the likes of Golladay, Tate, Engram, Shep, Slayton, Waller, Robinson and Toney as the #1 guys at some point.
I have not forgotten the instant replays were literally no one was open more times than not. Slayton is not going to beat double teams consistent. Engram never learned how to not volley the bally until he left for Jacksonville. Golladay was a bust. Shep could not stay healthy & past his prime then resigned to be a rah-rah guy. Waller never stayed on the field and maybe never had his head fully on the game. Toney well we already know how that went. Robinson has yet to be healthy consistently but has flashed. Hyatt is showing promise.
All the while DID Jones decreased his INTs and fumbles. Those are things he can control. Catching and Blocking is out of scope for him.
Give him some blocking and a good WR corp the TDs will come as well.
I disagree with the premise of ‘toxicity’ re. Jones. ‘Toxicity’ implies to me that it is personal. It isn’t. It is solely based on him as a QB.
Which means with a competent supporting cast he can get the job done.
Jones has the best WR corp he ever had ON PAPER. Another swing at the OL repair. ON PAPER looks better than before with some evidence from previous play. A new OL coach, the GM alluded to that was the issue especially in regards to Neal. Even got some blocking TEs via FA to battle for that spot.
Jones spread the ball around trying to work the system and get the open guy the ball. He has to read the field to accomplish that. All the while with the likes of Golladay, Tate, Engram, Shep, Slayton, Waller, Robinson and Toney as the #1 guys at some point.
I have not forgotten the instant replays were literally no one was open more times than not. Slayton is not going to beat double teams consistently. Engram never learned how to not volley the ball until he left for Jacksonville. Golladay was a bust. Shep could not stay healthy & past his prime then resigned to be a rah-rah guy. Waller never stayed on the field and maybe never had his head fully on the game. Toney well we already know how that went. Robinson has yet to be healthy consistently but has flashed. Hyatt is showing promise.
All the while Jones DID decreased his INTs and fumbles. Those are things he can control. Catching and Blocking is out of scope for him.
Give him some blocking and a good WR corp the TDs will come as well.
I disagree with the premise of ‘toxicity’ re. Jones. ‘Toxicity’ implies to me that it is personal. It isn’t. It is solely based on him as a QB.
Which means with a competent supporting cast he can get the job done.
Jones has the best WR corp he ever had ON PAPER. Another swing at the OL repair. ON PAPER looks better than before with some evidence from previous play. A new OL coach, the GM alluded to that was the issue especially in regards to Neal. Even got some blocking TEs via FA to battle for that spot.
Jones spread the ball around trying to work the system and get the open guy the ball. He has to read the field to accomplish that. All the while with the likes of Golladay, Tate, Engram, Shep, Slayton, Waller, Robinson and Toney as the #1 guys at some point.
I have not forgotten the instant replays were literally no one was open more times than not. Slayton is not going to beat double teams consistent. Engram never learned how to not volley the bally until he left for Jacksonville. Golladay was a bust. Shep could not stay healthy & past his prime then resigned to be a rah-rah guy. Waller never stayed on the field and maybe never had his head fully on the game. Toney well we already know how that went. Robinson has yet to be healthy consistently but has flashed. Hyatt is showing promise.
All the while DID Jones decreased his INTs and fumbles. Those are things he can control. Catching and Blocking is out of scope for him.
Give him some blocking and a good WR corp the TDs will come as well.
"Which means with a competent supporting cast he can get the job done." Well, you said it definitively, so it must be true!
I disagree with the premise of ‘toxicity’ re. Jones. ‘Toxicity’ implies to me that it is personal. It isn’t. It is solely based on him as a QB.
Which means with a competent supporting cast he can get the job done.
Jones has the best WR corp he ever had ON PAPER. Another swing at the OL repair. ON PAPER looks better than before with some evidence from previous play. A new OL coach, the GM alluded to that was the issue especially in regards to Neal. Even got some blocking TEs via FA to battle for that spot.
Jones spread the ball around trying to work the system and get the open guy the ball. He has to read the field to accomplish that. All the while with the likes of Golladay, Tate, Engram, Shep, Slayton, Waller, Robinson and Toney as the #1 guys at some point.
I have not forgotten the instant replays were literally no one was open more times than not. Slayton is not going to beat double teams consistently. Engram never learned how to not volley the ball until he left for Jacksonville. Golladay was a bust. Shep could not stay healthy & past his prime then resigned to be a rah-rah guy. Waller never stayed on the field and maybe never had his head fully on the game. Toney well we already know how that went. Robinson has yet to be healthy consistently but has flashed. Hyatt is showing promise.
All the while Jones DID decreased his INTs and fumbles. Those are things he can control. Catching and Blocking is out of scope for him.
Give him some blocking and a good WR corp the TDs will come as well.
Or maybe give the supporting cast a competent QB and they'll catch TDs and block better
Much the same when Eli went into decline and some fans only looked in other directions to explain the losing.
Which games was Eli personally and solely responsible for us losing? Otherwise factoring in "other directions" would naturally still be in the discussion.
I never intimated solely. Not a productive question to respond to anyway.
Stating that "fans only looked in other directions to explain the losing" does intimate that you might have felt some losses were entirely Eli's responsibility. So I asked. I regret if it bothers you that I addressed your statement as a stand-alone comment and not in the context of the existing discussion. I appreciate Snorkels making it clear that you overstated the effect of Eli's "decline" by attempting to swipe away the viability of allowing for other factors.
So we supposedly have fans who want Jones to succeed more than they want the team to ... and other fans who feel success by Jones can only signal ongoing mediocrity at best for the team. Personally, I find it more tolerable, this time of year, to listen to the optimists. It only seems to take one or two DJ supporters to bring out a boatload of DJ critics (not that I'm carefully counting). I'm in the middle; I can wait and see what happens from this September into next January -- without then projecting what the effect of that will be farther down the road. It reminds me of my friend who came in to work in late January 1987 all worried about how winning the Super Bowl was likely to make things tough going forward. Thankfully, my emotional welfare doesn't require that the Giants be a perennial winner as long as they can be a fairly regular one.
My comment most certainly does not intimate that I felt some losses were entirely Eli's responsibility. Nor do I think that way.
I also didn't overstate Eli's decline whether you and Snork think so doesn't follow the . Eli's decline was begun to be noticed in 2016 and dragged on for several painful years, mostly because of the inaction of several in the organization. In fact, as a big fan of Eli's, it was sad to watch while the franchise did basically nothing to address the QB situation until is was so late that they became desperate and panicked themselves into a poorly thought-out DJ decision in 2019. That was just after a poorly-thought out decision to put Gettleman in as GM.
And go right ahead and listen to the optimists, hang out in the middle and play the wait-and-see game. It is your right as a fan. The guys running this franchise probably love that based on what the little they have been able to produce on the field for the past decade plus.
Lastly, referring to the NY Giants a fairly regular winner made my afternoon. Keep that type of comedy coming!
I recommend you seek help. Your views are likely to cause stress that could actually kill you. Best of luck to you.
Just post more Bob. That comedy would lighten up the stress
I can't speak to what you heard at Shea in the 1980s. I went to a few games a year there but not many.
But yes I called you liar about Yankee Stadium and Reggie. Maybe that's not fair. Maybe when you were 12 years old someone near you directed that at Reggie loudly enough for you to remember it. But it wasn't something that was ever reported or I've ever heard mentioned by anyone but you.
So if it happened, I'm sorry you had to hear that but as rough as the crowd was at Yankee Stadium in the 1970s I never personally heard or read about anything racial being directed at Reggie from Yankee fans.
RE: Just post more Bob. That comedy would lighten up the stress
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In comment 16523439 BronxBob said:
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Yeah, there clearly is.
Much the same when Eli went into decline and some fans only looked in other directions to explain the losing.
Which games was Eli personally and solely responsible for us losing? Otherwise factoring in "other directions" would naturally still be in the discussion.
I never intimated solely. Not a productive question to respond to anyway.
Stating that "fans only looked in other directions to explain the losing" does intimate that you might have felt some losses were entirely Eli's responsibility. So I asked. I regret if it bothers you that I addressed your statement as a stand-alone comment and not in the context of the existing discussion. I appreciate Snorkels making it clear that you overstated the effect of Eli's "decline" by attempting to swipe away the viability of allowing for other factors.
So we supposedly have fans who want Jones to succeed more than they want the team to ... and other fans who feel success by Jones can only signal ongoing mediocrity at best for the team. Personally, I find it more tolerable, this time of year, to listen to the optimists. It only seems to take one or two DJ supporters to bring out a boatload of DJ critics (not that I'm carefully counting). I'm in the middle; I can wait and see what happens from this September into next January -- without then projecting what the effect of that will be farther down the road. It reminds me of my friend who came in to work in late January 1987 all worried about how winning the Super Bowl was likely to make things tough going forward. Thankfully, my emotional welfare doesn't require that the Giants be a perennial winner as long as they can be a fairly regular one.
My comment most certainly does not intimate that I felt some losses were entirely Eli's responsibility. Nor do I think that way.
I also didn't overstate Eli's decline whether you and Snork think so doesn't follow the . Eli's decline was begun to be noticed in 2016 and dragged on for several painful years, mostly because of the inaction of several in the organization. In fact, as a big fan of Eli's, it was sad to watch while the franchise did basically nothing to address the QB situation until is was so late that they became desperate and panicked themselves into a poorly thought-out DJ decision in 2019. That was just after a poorly-thought out decision to put Gettleman in as GM.
And go right ahead and listen to the optimists, hang out in the middle and play the wait-and-see game. It is your right as a fan. The guys running this franchise probably love that based on what the little they have been able to produce on the field for the past decade plus.
Lastly, referring to the NY Giants a fairly regular winner made my afternoon. Keep that type of comedy coming!
This type of player isn't typically signed to a mega deal. And in the unlikely event a team makes that mistake, they don't typically attack their fan base for being upset.
And my point is that QB is a unique position such that the market is fundamentally different. And neither fans nor franchises typically get so bent out of shape about this with other positions. Kenny Golladay got a huge contract, he sucked, and we cut him. It happens. The emotions here are incredibly high in part because it's a QB. Some of the irrational Jones love/defense, however, I really just don't understand and probably never will.
I think the emotions are high because Jones was never the QB equivalent of what Golladay the WR was. At least Golladay had a couple of really standout years.
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The point isn't Ojulari. Substitute any player with an uneven track record, and an average performance in their contract year.
This type of player isn't typically signed to a mega deal. And in the unlikely event a team makes that mistake, they don't typically attack their fan base for being upset.
And my point is that QB is a unique position such that the market is fundamentally different. And neither fans nor franchises typically get so bent out of shape about this with other positions. Kenny Golladay got a huge contract, he sucked, and we cut him. It happens. The emotions here are incredibly high in part because it's a QB. Some of the irrational Jones love/defense, however, I really just don't understand and probably never will.
I think the emotions are high because Jones was never the QB equivalent of what Golladay the WR was. At least Golladay had a couple of really standout years.
I agree with your analysis of Jones' play. But I don't think it's just that. I've never seen anything like this in my years following NY sports. Maybe I'm not old enough, IDK.
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My point is Ojulari had an uneven first three years. If he has a nice, but well short of great season, no one will or call for him to be signed to a huge deal.
And in the event that improbable mistake were to happen, and he continued to have durability and consistency issues, no one would be defending the mistake.
That's an unfair comparison because QB is a much more unique position. And harder to find competent players. Hence why the market is different.
The real problem here is that Daniel Jones is just not that good but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it.
That’s your problem if you care about what others think. Some of you people feel everyone has to agree with your opinion . Doesn’t work that way. You must be in your twenties.
Just maybe the 'real problem is that Daniel Jones has some tools and the potential to be at least a halfway decent NFL QB if given some talent to work with, but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it'
Yup. Says a lot about the people running the team.
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In comment 16523657 Mike from SI said: Quote: The real problem here is that Daniel Jones is just not that good but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it.
Just maybe the 'real problem is that Daniel Jones has some tools and the potential to be at least a halfway decent NFL QB if given some talent to work with, but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it'
With the NFLs 6th highest cap hit at the position, I’d expect more than “halfway decent”.
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In comment 16523657 Mike from SI said: Quote: The real problem here is that Daniel Jones is just not that good but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it.
Just maybe the 'real problem is that Daniel Jones has some tools and the potential to be at least a halfway decent NFL QB if given some talent to work with, but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it'
Quite the compliment. In year 6 you think maybe he has the potential to be halfway decent.
That comment alone means move on.
Man, this era of Giants football is so depressing.
Asshole, only description that fits.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
That said, for me, to be "proven wrong" about Jones, it has to be a significant improvement. A repeat of 2022 doesn't cut it for this team moving forward.
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In comment 16523650 christian said:
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My point is Ojulari had an uneven first three years. If he has a nice, but well short of great season, no one will or call for him to be signed to a huge deal.
And in the event that improbable mistake were to happen, and he continued to have durability and consistency issues, no one would be defending the mistake.
That's an unfair comparison because QB is a much more unique position. And harder to find competent players. Hence why the market is different.
The real problem here is that Daniel Jones is just not that good but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it.
That’s your problem if you care about what others think. Some of you people feel everyone has to agree with your opinion . Doesn’t work that way. You must be in your twenties.
The entire focus of this thread is Papa & Banks commenting on what Giants fans are rooting for. In other words, this thread is explicitly about what others think. It doesn't affect my life in any way. But this is just an odd comment. And I'm not in my twenties although I wish I were.
Just because he's the quarterback doesn't make him any more special than any other player.
When the Giants have over-invested in the past on players like Solder and Golladay, fans were perfectly comfortable looking forward to the day those mistakes were in the rearview mirror. I view Daniel Jones the exact same way.
I'm in my 40s, am I allowed to think that?
Just because he's the quarterback doesn't make him any more special than any other player.
When the Giants have over-invested in the past on players like Solder and Golladay, fans were perfectly comfortable looking forward to the day those mistakes were in the rearview mirror. I view Daniel Jones the exact same way.
I'm in my 40s, am I allowed to think that?
"Must be in your twenties" is funny since a lot us have been on BBI either over twenty years or near it.
Some of us haven't even needed a new handle, imagine that?
Just because he's the quarterback doesn't make him any more special than any other player.
When the Giants have over-invested in the past on players like Solder and Golladay, fans were perfectly comfortable looking forward to the day those mistakes were in the rearview mirror. I view Daniel Jones the exact same way.
I'm in my 40s, am I allowed to think that?
"Must be in your twenties" is funny since a lot us have been on BBI either over twenty years or near it.
Some of us haven't even needed a new handle, imagine that?
Yup. I've been a daily user of BBI since I was 18 years olds. And I frequented the site before that, when I was in high school.
I've had the same handle and the same mediocre contributions for 25 years!
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Is so small that it defies comprehesion that papa and banks would waste time while football camps are open to talk about it. There is a difference between expecting a poor result and cheering for it to happen.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
Thank you. I hate that so many take criticism as "rooting against" or "hate". There are very few Giants fans who want to see Jones fail. I have been overly critical of him, but as long as he is the QB, I hope he is lights out. And this goes for any player. I think overwhelmingly, any of us would rather be proven wrong about a player we are critical of than proven right. The latter is much more damaging to the team.
That said, for me, to be "proven wrong" about Jones, it has to be a significant improvement. A repeat of 2022 doesn't cut it for this team moving forward.
I have not seen any evidence that Papa and Banks are going after fans who are reasonably critical of Jones. I can't imagine if a fan said: "I don't think Jones is the answer at qb; yes his surroundings have not been ideal. However, I think given the amount of snaps we have seen from Jones with these surroundings, I feel I can safely say that Jones is not the answer at qb." Papa and Banks would classify that fan as the 'sector' of fans Banks was speaking of. If they did, then I would totally disagree. Again, to me, they are clearly talking about the seemingly growing number of fans who express their opinions of Jones in a personal tone or expressing their critical opinion as if that is the only opinion that is acceptable.
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In comment 16525630 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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Is so small that it defies comprehesion that papa and banks would waste time while football camps are open to talk about it. There is a difference between expecting a poor result and cheering for it to happen.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
Thank you. I hate that so many take criticism as "rooting against" or "hate". There are very few Giants fans who want to see Jones fail. I have been overly critical of him, but as long as he is the QB, I hope he is lights out. And this goes for any player. I think overwhelmingly, any of us would rather be proven wrong about a player we are critical of than proven right. The latter is much more damaging to the team.
That said, for me, to be "proven wrong" about Jones, it has to be a significant improvement. A repeat of 2022 doesn't cut it for this team moving forward.
I have not seen any evidence that Papa and Banks are going after fans who are reasonably critical of Jones. I can't imagine if a fan said: "I don't think Jones is the answer at qb; yes his surroundings have not been ideal. However, I think given the amount of snaps we have seen from Jones with these surroundings, I feel I can safely say that Jones is not the answer at qb." Papa and Banks would classify that fan as the 'sector' of fans Banks was speaking of. If they did, then I would totally disagree. Again, to me, they are clearly talking about the seemingly growing number of fans who express their opinions of Jones in a personal tone or expressing their critical opinion as if that is the only opinion that is acceptable.
Who decides what is "reasonably critical of Jones"? Maybe you, ChrisRick? Jones is a highly paid quarterback for an NFL team. He is an athlete and a public figure. People get to say what they want about him. Athletes have suffered much worse public abuse than Daniel Jones has. Great athletes. I remember Yankee fans in the 70s shouting the N-word at Reggie Jackson at the Stadium.
Where is the line? Jones is a terrible quarterback and the Giants have botched the position for going on 7 years. The Giants are on the brink of squandering an entire decade due to obstinance and incompetence. This team deserves to lose fans because of their mismanagement. Have I gone too far? Since you seem to think you and Banks are judge and jury, I will wait for your verdict.
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In comment 16525641 Matt M. said:
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In comment 16525630 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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Is so small that it defies comprehesion that papa and banks would waste time while football camps are open to talk about it. There is a difference between expecting a poor result and cheering for it to happen.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
Thank you. I hate that so many take criticism as "rooting against" or "hate". There are very few Giants fans who want to see Jones fail. I have been overly critical of him, but as long as he is the QB, I hope he is lights out. And this goes for any player. I think overwhelmingly, any of us would rather be proven wrong about a player we are critical of than proven right. The latter is much more damaging to the team.
That said, for me, to be "proven wrong" about Jones, it has to be a significant improvement. A repeat of 2022 doesn't cut it for this team moving forward.
I have not seen any evidence that Papa and Banks are going after fans who are reasonably critical of Jones. I can't imagine if a fan said: "I don't think Jones is the answer at qb; yes his surroundings have not been ideal. However, I think given the amount of snaps we have seen from Jones with these surroundings, I feel I can safely say that Jones is not the answer at qb." Papa and Banks would classify that fan as the 'sector' of fans Banks was speaking of. If they did, then I would totally disagree. Again, to me, they are clearly talking about the seemingly growing number of fans who express their opinions of Jones in a personal tone or expressing their critical opinion as if that is the only opinion that is acceptable.
Who decides what is "reasonably critical of Jones"? Maybe you, ChrisRick? Jones is a highly paid quarterback for an NFL team. He is an athlete and a public figure. People get to say what they want about him. Athletes have suffered much worse public abuse than Daniel Jones has. Great athletes. I remember Yankee fans in the 70s shouting the N-word at Reggie Jackson at the Stadium.
Where is the line? Jones is a terrible quarterback and the Giants have botched the position for going on 7 years. The Giants are on the brink of squandering an entire decade due to obstinance and incompetence. This team deserves to lose fans because of their mismanagement. Have I gone too far? Since you seem to think you and Banks are judge and jury, I will wait for your verdict.
We need better PRODUCERS from MANHATTAN. JINKIES!
Just because he's the quarterback doesn't make him any more special than any other player.
When the Giants have over-invested in the past on players like Solder and Golladay, fans were perfectly comfortable looking forward to the day those mistakes were in the rearview mirror. I view Daniel Jones the exact same way.
I'm in my 40s, am I allowed to think that?
Yes, apparently your age has given you enough wisdom to provide such analysis.
While I generally agree with your position, I do think the QB thing is part of what is driving the hysteria.
Yes, apparently your age has given you enough wisdom to provide such analysis.
While I generally agree with your position, I do think the QB thing is part of what is driving the hysteria.
Oh I completely agree. And I don't discount QB is an outsized emotional and practical impact because of the dollars.
But as we logically break apart the discussion, I think it's worth trying to extract the emotional part.
Re-read what I posted.
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In comment 16525630 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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Is so small that it defies comprehesion that papa and banks would waste time while football camps are open to talk about it. There is a difference between expecting a poor result and cheering for it to happen.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
Thank you. I hate that so many take criticism as "rooting against" or "hate". There are very few Giants fans who want to see Jones fail. I have been overly critical of him, but as long as he is the QB, I hope he is lights out. And this goes for any player. I think overwhelmingly, any of us would rather be proven wrong about a player we are critical of than proven right. The latter is much more damaging to the team.
That said, for me, to be "proven wrong" about Jones, it has to be a significant improvement. A repeat of 2022 doesn't cut it for this team moving forward.
I have not seen any evidence that Papa and Banks are going after fans who are reasonably critical of Jones. I can't imagine if a fan said: "I don't think Jones is the answer at qb; yes his surroundings have not been ideal. However, I think given the amount of snaps we have seen from Jones with these surroundings, I feel I can safely say that Jones is not the answer at qb." Papa and Banks would classify that fan as the 'sector' of fans Banks was speaking of. If they did, then I would totally disagree. Again, to me, they are clearly talking about the seemingly growing number of fans who express their opinions of Jones in a personal tone or expressing their critical opinion as if that is the only opinion that is acceptable.
Plenty of fans started off with the reasonable take, but were continually excoriated, bullied, and told how crappy of fans they were for not believing Daniel Jones was the answer. Yet those who still believe in Jones wonder why those who don't have such extreme takes after 5 years.
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It's far and away the most important factor to success. When a team doesn't have a QB, as the Giants don't, you can make the case that every other conversation is moot.
Re-read what I posted.
I don't have any disagreement with you, either in this thread or pretty much anything else you have posted. I just pulled this one idea out, because it does get repeated on occasion. The idea is that Jones gets picked on because he's the quarterback, and there are 21 other starters and 56 players, blah blah. And believe me I know you agree with me. Or you are close to what I am about to say.
I don't have the mathematical background to show how important QB is relative to the entire defense, or to the rest of the offense, or to the other 21 starters. This is why I mention Vegas so often when talking about this, because that is a 15 billion dollar industry that has given a number (in points) to the value of positions. But my instinct tells me the QB is worth more than the entire defense - assuming the defense has some bad players which negates some of the value of good players. And he is probably worth as much or more than the rest of the offense.
So I am just picking out this point and saying in general, when you don't have a quarterback, there is no amount of conversation that is outsized. It's the whole enchilada. In terms of Super Bowl aspirations, the 2024 Giants season is already over. Sure there will be thrills and lots to talk about, and maybe some good surprises. But we're not a SB contender, so ultimately this season is done before it has begun.
Riveting stuff.
Being employed by a team that sucks and having to try and remain positive is not easy.
Kill em all you want - but they are in a tough spot.
The "having to try and remain positive" is a Mara mandate, not a universal job responsibility. These guys could absolutely take a more balanced position if they were so inclined, and furthermore, they could also dish out criticism/excuses a bit more evenly.
Every single member of NYG State Media are in the position they're in because they're shills by nature, not the other way around. They didn't learn to become shills when they arrived; they promised to do it in their job interview, just like Gettleman did with keeping Eli. This is who they are, just like this is who this entire loser organization is.
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My point is Ojulari had an uneven first three years. If he has a nice, but well short of great season, no one will or call for him to be signed to a huge deal.
And in the event that improbable mistake were to happen, and he continued to have durability and consistency issues, no one would be defending the mistake.
That's an unfair comparison because QB is a much more unique position. And harder to find competent players. Hence why the market is different.
The real problem here is that Daniel Jones is just not that good but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it.
It's not just "harder," it's absolutely impossible to find competent players when you refuse to even draft any prospect at all at that position for six years.
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In comment 16525699 ChrisRick said:
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In comment 16525641 Matt M. said:
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In comment 16525630 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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Is so small that it defies comprehesion that papa and banks would waste time while football camps are open to talk about it. There is a difference between expecting a poor result and cheering for it to happen.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
Thank you. I hate that so many take criticism as "rooting against" or "hate". There are very few Giants fans who want to see Jones fail. I have been overly critical of him, but as long as he is the QB, I hope he is lights out. And this goes for any player. I think overwhelmingly, any of us would rather be proven wrong about a player we are critical of than proven right. The latter is much more damaging to the team.
That said, for me, to be "proven wrong" about Jones, it has to be a significant improvement. A repeat of 2022 doesn't cut it for this team moving forward.
I have not seen any evidence that Papa and Banks are going after fans who are reasonably critical of Jones. I can't imagine if a fan said: "I don't think Jones is the answer at qb; yes his surroundings have not been ideal. However, I think given the amount of snaps we have seen from Jones with these surroundings, I feel I can safely say that Jones is not the answer at qb." Papa and Banks would classify that fan as the 'sector' of fans Banks was speaking of. If they did, then I would totally disagree. Again, to me, they are clearly talking about the seemingly growing number of fans who express their opinions of Jones in a personal tone or expressing their critical opinion as if that is the only opinion that is acceptable.
Who decides what is "reasonably critical of Jones"? Maybe you, ChrisRick? Jones is a highly paid quarterback for an NFL team. He is an athlete and a public figure. People get to say what they want about him. Athletes have suffered much worse public abuse than Daniel Jones has. Great athletes. I remember Yankee fans in the 70s shouting the N-word at Reggie Jackson at the Stadium.
Where is the line? Jones is a terrible quarterback and the Giants have botched the position for going on 7 years. The Giants are on the brink of squandering an entire decade due to obstinance and incompetence. This team deserves to lose fans because of their mismanagement. Have I gone too far? Since you seem to think you and Banks are judge and jury, I will wait for your verdict.
We need better PRODUCERS from MANHATTAN. JINKIES!
That DEPends.
Is there any credible corroboration that this actually happened?
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In comment 16525641 Matt M. said:
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In comment 16525630 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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Is so small that it defies comprehesion that papa and banks would waste time while football camps are open to talk about it. There is a difference between expecting a poor result and cheering for it to happen.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
Thank you. I hate that so many take criticism as "rooting against" or "hate". There are very few Giants fans who want to see Jones fail. I have been overly critical of him, but as long as he is the QB, I hope he is lights out. And this goes for any player. I think overwhelmingly, any of us would rather be proven wrong about a player we are critical of than proven right. The latter is much more damaging to the team.
That said, for me, to be "proven wrong" about Jones, it has to be a significant improvement. A repeat of 2022 doesn't cut it for this team moving forward.
I have not seen any evidence that Papa and Banks are going after fans who are reasonably critical of Jones. I can't imagine if a fan said: "I don't think Jones is the answer at qb; yes his surroundings have not been ideal. However, I think given the amount of snaps we have seen from Jones with these surroundings, I feel I can safely say that Jones is not the answer at qb." Papa and Banks would classify that fan as the 'sector' of fans Banks was speaking of. If they did, then I would totally disagree. Again, to me, they are clearly talking about the seemingly growing number of fans who express their opinions of Jones in a personal tone or expressing their critical opinion as if that is the only opinion that is acceptable.
Who decides what is "reasonably critical of Jones"? Maybe you, ChrisRick? Jones is a highly paid quarterback for an NFL team. He is an athlete and a public figure. People get to say what they want about him. Athletes have suffered much worse public abuse than Daniel Jones has. Great athletes. I remember Yankee fans in the 70s shouting the N-word at Reggie Jackson at the Stadium.
Where is the line? Jones is a terrible quarterback and the Giants have botched the position for going on 7 years. The Giants are on the brink of squandering an entire decade due to obstinance and incompetence. This team deserves to lose fans because of their mismanagement. Have I gone too far? Since you seem to think you and Banks are judge and jury, I will wait for your verdict.
I am confident you and I could agree pretty closely on what reasonable criticism of a player is. My intent was not to say who can say what is reasonable.
People absolutely get to say what they want, I never said any different and as far as I know neither did Papa nor Banks. I also am not arguing nor comparing the treatment of Daniel Jones vs other athletes.
Where is the line? To me, at the minimum leave out personal attacks of a player when critiquing their game. I would say if a fan wants Jones to fail just because they don't like him then they have crossed the line of taking it personal. I can see a difference from a pov of a fan hoping that if Jones fails this year, he fails enough for it to be an easy decision for the Giants to move on. You certainly do not have to believe these fans exist.
I think you are off base with your assumption that I think I am a judge of who can say what. I never said what you or anyone else can say. I posted on this thread because I saw this podcast differently than most. I did not see Papa and Banks criticizing all or even most Giants fans.
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In comment 16525641 Matt M. said:
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In comment 16525630 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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Is so small that it defies comprehesion that papa and banks would waste time while football camps are open to talk about it. There is a difference between expecting a poor result and cheering for it to happen.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
Thank you. I hate that so many take criticism as "rooting against" or "hate". There are very few Giants fans who want to see Jones fail. I have been overly critical of him, but as long as he is the QB, I hope he is lights out. And this goes for any player. I think overwhelmingly, any of us would rather be proven wrong about a player we are critical of than proven right. The latter is much more damaging to the team.
That said, for me, to be "proven wrong" about Jones, it has to be a significant improvement. A repeat of 2022 doesn't cut it for this team moving forward.
I have not seen any evidence that Papa and Banks are going after fans who are reasonably critical of Jones. I can't imagine if a fan said: "I don't think Jones is the answer at qb; yes his surroundings have not been ideal. However, I think given the amount of snaps we have seen from Jones with these surroundings, I feel I can safely say that Jones is not the answer at qb." Papa and Banks would classify that fan as the 'sector' of fans Banks was speaking of. If they did, then I would totally disagree. Again, to me, they are clearly talking about the seemingly growing number of fans who express their opinions of Jones in a personal tone or expressing their critical opinion as if that is the only opinion that is acceptable.
Plenty of fans started off with the reasonable take, but were continually excoriated, bullied, and told how crappy of fans they were for not believing Daniel Jones was the answer. Yet those who still believe in Jones wonder why those who don't have such extreme takes after 5 years.
I don't think it is good for any fans to behave the way you described above. I also don't think it is a good excuse to alter one's point of view from reasonable to unreasonable because of how they were treated by other fans.
There are def pro Jones fans that are unreasonable (my view of unreasonable to be clear) and aggressive with their takes towards other fans.
Many Jones discussions are simply tribes repeating the same thing over and over again.
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Yankee fans in the 70s shouting the N-word at Reggie Jackson at the Stadium.
Is there any credible corroboration that this actually happened?
I personally witnessed it and didn't bring a recorder with me, I was 12. It definitely happened. You are free to disbelieve my recollection. But it was "a fan", I shouldn't have said "fans". But if I heard it once it must have happened plenty of other times. I probably went to roughly 30 Yankee games in the 70s. There was a lot of bad behavior at Yankee Stadium in the 70s and Shea in the 80s.
The other thing you said never happened. You made it up.
I am confident you and I could agree pretty closely on what reasonable criticism of a player is. My intent was not to say who can say what is reasonable.
People absolutely get to say what they want, I never said any different and as far as I know neither did Papa nor Banks. I also am not arguing nor comparing the treatment of Daniel Jones vs other athletes.
Where is the line? To me, at the minimum leave out personal attacks of a player when critiquing their game. I would say if a fan wants Jones to fail just because they don't like him then they have crossed the line of taking it personal. I can see a difference from a pov of a fan hoping that if Jones fails this year, he fails enough for it to be an easy decision for the Giants to move on. You certainly do not have to believe these fans exist.
I think you are off base with your assumption that I think I am a judge of who can say what. I never said what you or anyone else can say. I posted on this thread because I saw this podcast differently than most. I did not see Papa and Banks criticizing all or even most Giants fans.
We probably agree on a lot of it. I don't like when people use unsavory and vitriolic language against other players or public figures. It creeps me out. and it happens on this board and all across social media plenty. I would prefer if people refrained from using highly insulting language.
And there is a lot of insulting language on this board directed at other posters, which I find juvenile, unnecessary, and depressing. I wonder why people feel so comfortable calling another poster a POS over a sports disagreement. Maybe because it is anonymous they feel it is somehow ok. But you see several posters who raise the volume to 11, when someone dares to say Jones is bad. Does that bother you? Because I think it is a bigger problem to flame a fellow poster with vitriol than to insult a 100 million dollar public figure.
The other thing you said never happened. You made it up.
I did not make it up. I heard the N-word shouted at Shea as well in the 80s. You may not like it, but I witnessed it. Thanks for calling me a liar.
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right now...they've got one of the hardest gigs in sports.
Being employed by a team that sucks and having to try and remain positive is not easy.
Kill em all you want - but they are in a tough spot.
The "having to try and remain positive" is a Mara mandate, not a universal job responsibility. These guys could absolutely take a more balanced position if they were so inclined, and furthermore, they could also dish out criticism/excuses a bit more evenly.
Every single member of NYG State Media are in the position they're in because they're shills by nature, not the other way around. They didn't learn to become shills when they arrived; they promised to do it in their job interview, just like Gettleman did with keeping Eli. This is who they are, just like this is who this entire loser organization is.
They may be shills. But I would bet that at various times they have said the OL is bad, the WRs are bad, the TEs are bad, the running game is bad, various parts of the D are bad. But there is one special guy who we can't say is bad.
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I am confident you and I could agree pretty closely on what reasonable criticism of a player is. My intent was not to say who can say what is reasonable.
People absolutely get to say what they want, I never said any different and as far as I know neither did Papa nor Banks. I also am not arguing nor comparing the treatment of Daniel Jones vs other athletes.
Where is the line? To me, at the minimum leave out personal attacks of a player when critiquing their game. I would say if a fan wants Jones to fail just because they don't like him then they have crossed the line of taking it personal. I can see a difference from a pov of a fan hoping that if Jones fails this year, he fails enough for it to be an easy decision for the Giants to move on. You certainly do not have to believe these fans exist.
I think you are off base with your assumption that I think I am a judge of who can say what. I never said what you or anyone else can say. I posted on this thread because I saw this podcast differently than most. I did not see Papa and Banks criticizing all or even most Giants fans.
We probably agree on a lot of it. I don't like when people use unsavory and vitriolic language against other players or public figures. It creeps me out. and it happens on this board and all across social media plenty. I would prefer if people refrained from using highly insulting language.
And there is a lot of insulting language on this board directed at other posters, which I find juvenile, unnecessary, and depressing. I wonder why people feel so comfortable calling another poster a POS over a sports disagreement. Maybe because it is anonymous they feel it is somehow ok. But you see several posters who raise the volume to 11, when someone dares to say Jones is bad. Does that bother you? Because I think it is a bigger problem to flame a fellow poster with vitriol than to insult a 100 million dollar public figure.
I honestly did not post on this thread because of how fans speak about Daniel Jones. I just thought some fans were being a bit unfair in regard to Banks and Papa.
I think you are right in some capacity regarding people having internet courage because of the anonymity.
I am not bothered as much about how other fans speak to each other as I am about how I speak to other fans or how they speak to me (I would like to care a lot less about how others speak to me, but life is a journey. :)
Which means with a competent supporting cast he can get the job done.
Jones has the best WR corp he ever had ON PAPER. Another swing at the OL repair. ON PAPER looks better than before with some evidence from previous play. A new OL coach, the GM alluded to that was the issue especially in regards to Neal. Even got some blocking TEs via FA to battle for that spot.
Jones spread the ball around trying to work the system and get the open guy the ball. He has to read the field to accomplish that. All the while with the likes of Golladay, Tate, Engram, Shep, Slayton, Waller, Robinson and Toney as the #1 guys at some point.
I have not forgotten the instant replays were literally no one was open more times than not. Slayton is not going to beat double teams consistent. Engram never learned how to not volley the bally until he left for Jacksonville. Golladay was a bust. Shep could not stay healthy & past his prime then resigned to be a rah-rah guy. Waller never stayed on the field and maybe never had his head fully on the game. Toney well we already know how that went. Robinson has yet to be healthy consistently but has flashed. Hyatt is showing promise.
All the while DID Jones decreased his INTs and fumbles. Those are things he can control. Catching and Blocking is out of scope for him.
Give him some blocking and a good WR corp the TDs will come as well.
Which means with a competent supporting cast he can get the job done.
Jones has the best WR corp he ever had ON PAPER. Another swing at the OL repair. ON PAPER looks better than before with some evidence from previous play. A new OL coach, the GM alluded to that was the issue especially in regards to Neal. Even got some blocking TEs via FA to battle for that spot.
Jones spread the ball around trying to work the system and get the open guy the ball. He has to read the field to accomplish that. All the while with the likes of Golladay, Tate, Engram, Shep, Slayton, Waller, Robinson and Toney as the #1 guys at some point.
I have not forgotten the instant replays were literally no one was open more times than not. Slayton is not going to beat double teams consistently. Engram never learned how to not volley the ball until he left for Jacksonville. Golladay was a bust. Shep could not stay healthy & past his prime then resigned to be a rah-rah guy. Waller never stayed on the field and maybe never had his head fully on the game. Toney well we already know how that went. Robinson has yet to be healthy consistently but has flashed. Hyatt is showing promise.
All the while Jones DID decreased his INTs and fumbles. Those are things he can control. Catching and Blocking is out of scope for him.
Give him some blocking and a good WR corp the TDs will come as well.
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I disagree with the premise of ‘toxicity’ re. Jones. ‘Toxicity’ implies to me that it is personal. It isn’t. It is solely based on him as a QB.
Which means with a competent supporting cast he can get the job done.
Jones has the best WR corp he ever had ON PAPER. Another swing at the OL repair. ON PAPER looks better than before with some evidence from previous play. A new OL coach, the GM alluded to that was the issue especially in regards to Neal. Even got some blocking TEs via FA to battle for that spot.
Jones spread the ball around trying to work the system and get the open guy the ball. He has to read the field to accomplish that. All the while with the likes of Golladay, Tate, Engram, Shep, Slayton, Waller, Robinson and Toney as the #1 guys at some point.
I have not forgotten the instant replays were literally no one was open more times than not. Slayton is not going to beat double teams consistent. Engram never learned how to not volley the bally until he left for Jacksonville. Golladay was a bust. Shep could not stay healthy & past his prime then resigned to be a rah-rah guy. Waller never stayed on the field and maybe never had his head fully on the game. Toney well we already know how that went. Robinson has yet to be healthy consistently but has flashed. Hyatt is showing promise.
All the while DID Jones decreased his INTs and fumbles. Those are things he can control. Catching and Blocking is out of scope for him.
Give him some blocking and a good WR corp the TDs will come as well.
"Which means with a competent supporting cast he can get the job done." Well, you said it definitively, so it must be true!
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I disagree with the premise of ‘toxicity’ re. Jones. ‘Toxicity’ implies to me that it is personal. It isn’t. It is solely based on him as a QB.
Which means with a competent supporting cast he can get the job done.
Jones has the best WR corp he ever had ON PAPER. Another swing at the OL repair. ON PAPER looks better than before with some evidence from previous play. A new OL coach, the GM alluded to that was the issue especially in regards to Neal. Even got some blocking TEs via FA to battle for that spot.
Jones spread the ball around trying to work the system and get the open guy the ball. He has to read the field to accomplish that. All the while with the likes of Golladay, Tate, Engram, Shep, Slayton, Waller, Robinson and Toney as the #1 guys at some point.
I have not forgotten the instant replays were literally no one was open more times than not. Slayton is not going to beat double teams consistently. Engram never learned how to not volley the ball until he left for Jacksonville. Golladay was a bust. Shep could not stay healthy & past his prime then resigned to be a rah-rah guy. Waller never stayed on the field and maybe never had his head fully on the game. Toney well we already know how that went. Robinson has yet to be healthy consistently but has flashed. Hyatt is showing promise.
All the while Jones DID decreased his INTs and fumbles. Those are things he can control. Catching and Blocking is out of scope for him.
Give him some blocking and a good WR corp the TDs will come as well.
Or maybe give the supporting cast a competent QB and they'll catch TDs and block better
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In comment 16523468 ThomasG said:
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In comment 16523439 BronxBob said:
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Yeah, there clearly is.
Much the same when Eli went into decline and some fans only looked in other directions to explain the losing.
Which games was Eli personally and solely responsible for us losing? Otherwise factoring in "other directions" would naturally still be in the discussion.
I never intimated solely. Not a productive question to respond to anyway.
Stating that "fans only looked in other directions to explain the losing" does intimate that you might have felt some losses were entirely Eli's responsibility. So I asked. I regret if it bothers you that I addressed your statement as a stand-alone comment and not in the context of the existing discussion. I appreciate Snorkels making it clear that you overstated the effect of Eli's "decline" by attempting to swipe away the viability of allowing for other factors.
So we supposedly have fans who want Jones to succeed more than they want the team to ... and other fans who feel success by Jones can only signal ongoing mediocrity at best for the team. Personally, I find it more tolerable, this time of year, to listen to the optimists. It only seems to take one or two DJ supporters to bring out a boatload of DJ critics (not that I'm carefully counting). I'm in the middle; I can wait and see what happens from this September into next January -- without then projecting what the effect of that will be farther down the road. It reminds me of my friend who came in to work in late January 1987 all worried about how winning the Super Bowl was likely to make things tough going forward. Thankfully, my emotional welfare doesn't require that the Giants be a perennial winner as long as they can be a fairly regular one.
My comment most certainly does not intimate that I felt some losses were entirely Eli's responsibility. Nor do I think that way.
I also didn't overstate Eli's decline whether you and Snork think so doesn't follow the . Eli's decline was begun to be noticed in 2016 and dragged on for several painful years, mostly because of the inaction of several in the organization. In fact, as a big fan of Eli's, it was sad to watch while the franchise did basically nothing to address the QB situation until is was so late that they became desperate and panicked themselves into a poorly thought-out DJ decision in 2019. That was just after a poorly-thought out decision to put Gettleman in as GM.
And go right ahead and listen to the optimists, hang out in the middle and play the wait-and-see game. It is your right as a fan. The guys running this franchise probably love that based on what the little they have been able to produce on the field for the past decade plus.
Lastly, referring to the NY Giants a fairly regular winner made my afternoon. Keep that type of comedy coming!
I recommend you seek help. Your views are likely to cause stress that could actually kill you. Best of luck to you.
Take care.
But yes I called you liar about Yankee Stadium and Reggie. Maybe that's not fair. Maybe when you were 12 years old someone near you directed that at Reggie loudly enough for you to remember it. But it wasn't something that was ever reported or I've ever heard mentioned by anyone but you.
So if it happened, I'm sorry you had to hear that but as rough as the crowd was at Yankee Stadium in the 1970s I never personally heard or read about anything racial being directed at Reggie from Yankee fans.
Take care.
; - )