Taking someone's best season by far and declaring it their floor is not particularly logical, but it's very much on brand for your embarrassing DJ-worship.
Considering that he couldn't've had a weaker supporting cast, I think it's fair to say it's his floor. Can you point out a team that was weaker at OL and WR than the Giants were in 2022?
You're spot on. Just like flat earthers, people can ignore '22 all they want and toss in conspiracy theories about how Daboll/Schoen were forced to give Jones a deal rather than accepting facts borne by actual stats and film: his '22 performance in literally EVERYTHING under his control - accuracy on target, turnovers, yards per run, total running yards, was excellent, and his overall passing numbers were average (as a #14 QBR would suggest).
If '22 says he's "just a game manager" it was exactly the kind of game manager you can win a SB with. Led the league in accuracy and lowest TO rate. And was amongst the leaders and all rushing categories. He can't block rushers or throw to himself.
I also don't understand why anyone would expect a QB by any name in '22 to do anything better than Jones with Slayton, Richie James and Hodgins as his receivers (and even then, look what a revelation Hodgins -- a waiver -- was).
Incomprehensible.
You are hilariously wrong as Jones' underlying passing metrics were bad in 2022. All you've done is highlight his running, which QBR also overemphasizes. If Mara thinks like you we're doomed for a decade. Jones is scared to throw the ball, and his non productive Y/A and ADOT, even in his *fantastic* year 2022, are abysmal. If you think you can win a Super Bowl with Jones you are delusional, and the Cowboys and Eagles must be throwing a party because we're so inept.
the Cowboys and Eagles must be throwing a party because we're so inept.
I think that maybe the Cowboys who haven't won a Super Bowl in almost three decades - in fact they haven't won a non-Wild Card playoff game in that period - maybe should be more focused on their own house!
You literally just bucketed DJ and Eli together as the same level of "just below elite" QBs the other day.
a) I didn't/don't worship Eli; b) the comment you are referring to was a sarcastic reply to Go Terps (re: two talking heads naming Jones as the worst case scenario for Trevor Lawrence).
Maybe it's time for some self-reflection on your part then, because your supposedly sarcastic DJ posts and your genuinely sincere DJ posts are impossible to separate from one another.
And I don't think you were being sarcastic anyway.
Fanboy Milton is an easy read. If Jones never pans out, well, all of his praises were always meant to be sarcasm.
I think that's right. I've said all along, I think there is a wide range of outcomes for this team. God forbid Dexter goes down for an extended period, for example. But I do feel that last year we suffered more than our share of impactful injuries, so there's that. Plus, the way I look at it --nobody can anticipate all the question marks. Why not embrace the positive potential over walking around with our tail between our legs all the time? I do feel better about our current coach and GM than prior. These may not be the guys, I'm not guaranteeing they are. But the prior administration was much more clearly NOT the guys at a similar point, IMO. So I've elected to stay positive, by choice.
That’s fine as is your choice. While others may want to see at least a few tangible indicators that the team could be heading in a positive direction before simply embracing it.
And projecting less than positive doesn’t mean fans are typically walking around with their tails between their legs. I think that may be more reserved for those expecting and/or touting the presumptive positive and then watching the losses pile up again as matter of fact.
That is fair Thomas. I was not saying others have tail between legs, so much as I was indicating that I choose not to. It's a personal choice in disposition given the absence of of certainty one way or another, if that makes sense.
Thw problem is that they have been bad for so many years - you can't blame the negativity. And in this case there has to be a reminder that Jones has been injury prone and that his mobility is probably less too.
Also, we hav a pro evaluator here named SY - who has said since early on - Jones is slow to read. He had a terrific RB in which he could also run well. Those are both gone-- now a better OL (not sure if it will be better in re to run blocking vs 2022 in that Giants are going to look to open things up more vs "pound") but better but now you may have a QB becoming more exposed to have to play to his weakness.
All-in-all that might not be good. i expect 6-7 wins. If things crash as low as 4 - if some mini-end of game extreme moments- up to 9. Part of the numbers are that Jones has the possibility - higher than most/nearly all qbs -- of getting hurt.
Being positive despite all this just seems a leap too far. And just because the OL is better doesn't mean it's good. It could be average or sub par. If its' good obviously 7+ feaisble depending on Jones / health etc.
If push came to shove I would go with under 6.5 wins. In a passing league our QB has more limited scrambling and is more injury prone and won't have as much of a running game in which he isn't that great of an overal "reader;" - that doesn't leave me with a good feeling.
Team won 6 games last year with a rough schedule and a pretty bad QB situation and a shitload of injuries, i think they are closer than some might realize.
We have 2 interrelated types of suboptimal fans on this board.
(1) "Being a fan" means blind or irrational optimism, and the related idea that pessimism/realism = not being a good fan.
(2) People who are so convinced of their knowledge that they root for the Giants to lose to bring about their desired outcome of roster/front office construction.
I think there's more (1) than (2) here, but I find both types of fans grating at times.
The defense will be fairly solid I think. The success of the team and playoff chances will depend on how Jones and the OL fair. If they can be a good offense, combined with the schedule being easier this year, I like their wildcard chances.
Other than ER/OLB I’m not sure what position group we are clearly above average?
DT? - 1 great player then….
ILB - 1 very good player then…
WR?
Let's say, for the sake of argument, you're right about ER being a position group that's above average. Now add in the potential for our WR group to be above average if Malik Nabers is the real deal, Wan'Dale Robinson has a healthy year, and Hyatt develops as hoped. Well, pass-rushing and pass-cathing are two of the most important position groups in the NFL given it's a passing league. If the pass-rusher and pass-catchers are complemented by an average OL position group and an average back seven, that's the makings of a pretty good team if our QB plays well. And contrary to the haters and the lovers, Daniel Jones remains a mystery man. As demonstrated by his 2022 season, he is at worst, a competent game manager, but the potential is there for him to be more than that given an average OL and an above average WR group (compared to the pathetic OL and WR groups that he carried on his back in 2022).
p.s.--People discount his road playoff victory over the Vikings in 2022 because they poo-poo the Vikings pass-defense, but if you factor in our dogshit OL and WRs, you could argue that that's what you get from Daniel Jones in a fair fight. With an OL that can keep him from constantly running for his life and receivers that even top defenses need to actually gameplan against, it will be interesting to see how Jones performs...if he can stay healthy.
1-- An injury prone QB.
2--- A QB known to be slow to read.
3-- A QB whose best success has been his ability to use his legs which are now compromised to a degree.
I wouldn't call this position- the most important position on the field as "avaerage" while looking to put a positive spin on things.
Team won 6 games last year with a rough schedule and a pretty bad QB situation and a shitload of injuries, i think they are closer than some might realize.
I think people are downplaying the loss of Barkley. That has to be accounted for along with Mckinney.
To be honest, I'm not exactly sure what purpose you serve when the team is good.
I hope some day the Giants provide an opportunity for us to find out!
Me too. I don't understand the posters that get angry when you just observe existing conditions.
Uber said it himself: he's making the choice to be positive. He isn't being objective. That's a completely fine way to be, but not everyone is going to be that.
Objectively, this team can, with average injury and "bounce of the ball" luck reasonably be expected to be well into the bottom half of the league. With good luck they can be middle of the league. With bad luck they can be among the very worst in the league. What they can't be is among the very best in the league.
People with no skin in the game are making the same observation. It isn't offensive.
Taking someone's best season by far and declaring it their floor is not particularly logical, but it's very much on brand for your embarrassing DJ-worship.
Considering that he couldn't've had a weaker supporting cast, I think it's fair to say it's his floor. Can you point out a team that was weaker at OL and WR than the Giants were in 2022?
You're spot on. Just like flat earthers, people can ignore '22 all they want and toss in conspiracy theories about how Daboll/Schoen were forced to give Jones a deal rather than accepting facts borne by actual stats and film: his '22 performance in literally EVERYTHING under his control - accuracy on target, turnovers, yards per run, total running yards, was excellent, and his overall passing numbers were average (as a #14 QBR would suggest).
If '22 says he's "just a game manager" it was exactly the kind of game manager you can win a SB with. Led the league in accuracy and lowest TO rate. And was amongst the leaders and all rushing categories. He can't block rushers or throw to himself.
I also don't understand why anyone would expect a QB by any name in '22 to do anything better than Jones with Slayton, Richie James and Hodgins as his receivers (and even then, look what a revelation Hodgins -- a waiver -- was).
Incomprehensible.
How am I denying 2022? All I'm saying is that it's fundamentally illogical to take someone's best performance and assume that that will become his BASELINE floor going forward.
How am I denying 2022? All I'm saying is that it's fundamentally illogical to take someone's best performance and assume that that will become his BASELINE floor going forward.
Can only chuckle when Dunk and Terps et al plaintively ask "How am I denying 2022?' cause of course they are because the hole in their whole premise that we 'can never win as long as DJ is the QB' is refuted by the fact that we did win that year with DJ playing a huge role. So we have to cherry pick some negative stats or claim the playoff win was meaningless because the Vikings didn't have a good defence.
Personally I take these pre-season prognostications with a grain of salt. Its why they actually play the games. I also come at from the perspective of someone who played sports for a good part of their life and even coached a little bit at a modestly high level. And as a player or coach you always go into a season with some optimism because I can guarantee that if you go into a season thinking that you suck; that you're awful you will be!
And I'm going into this season basically cautiously optimistic. No question the Giants went thru a dismal stretch especially 2017 thru 2021 when they were what 22-59. But they were 16-19-1 the past two years including a playoff appearance. There's also no question that they are slowly, but surely building a core of good young players. As several people have noted it takes time; the Giants didn't win a SB under George Young until his 8th year (and in fact were something like 26-46 in his first 5 years and 3-12-1 in his 5th!) So I doubt that the Giants are true 'contenders' this year but thinking they could be 2-3 years out from a disaster is just totally unrealistic.
And needless to say there is still work to be done. First and foremost to resolve the QB issue, firstly by finding out once and for all whether Jones is the guy; if not either thru the draft or finding a vet in the draft or free agency.
In the meantime, I kind of feel sorry for all the naysayers who are missing out on one of the most fascinating parts of the whole team-building process.
In the meantime, I kind of feel sorry for all the naysayers who are missing out on one of the most fascinating parts of the whole team-building process.
You do get that by debating these topics, the naysayers are in point-of-fact not missing out on this fascinating part, right?
How am I denying 2022? All I'm saying is that it's fundamentally illogical to take someone's best performance and assume that that will become his BASELINE floor going forward.
Can only chuckle when Dunk and Terps et al plaintively ask "How am I denying 2022?' cause of course they are because the hole in their whole premise that we 'can never win as long as DJ is the QB' is refuted by the fact that we did win that year with DJ playing a huge role. So we have to cherry pick some negative stats or claim the playoff win was meaningless because the Vikings didn't have a good defence.
Personally I take these pre-season prognostications with a grain of salt. Its why they actually play the games. I also come at from the perspective of someone who played sports for a good part of their life and even coached a little bit at a modestly high level. And as a player or coach you always go into a season with some optimism because I can guarantee that if you go into a season thinking that you suck; that you're awful you will be!
And I'm going into this season basically cautiously optimistic. No question the Giants went thru a dismal stretch especially 2017 thru 2021 when they were what 22-59. But they were 16-19-1 the past two years including a playoff appearance. There's also no question that they are slowly, but surely building a core of good young players. As several people have noted it takes time; the Giants didn't win a SB under George Young until his 8th year (and in fact were something like 26-46 in his first 5 years and 3-12-1 in his 5th!) So I doubt that the Giants are true 'contenders' this year but thinking they could be 2-3 years out from a disaster is just totally unrealistic.
And needless to say there is still work to be done. First and foremost to resolve the QB issue, firstly by finding out once and for all whether Jones is the guy; if not either thru the draft or finding a vet in the draft or free agency.
In the meantime, I kind of feel sorry for all the naysayers who are missing out on one of the most fascinating parts of the whole team-building process.
I've disagreed a ton with both guys you mentioned. A ton. But that aside - you have to recognized that you are not a coach for the Giants. You're on a site discussing "team."
You’re not the catch so why you think bringing up how your team "feels" going into a season and relating it to this team on this discussion board is completely irrelevant. If many feel a player or team is not good - how is it remotely relevant that you felt a need to repress your preseason optimism when you were/ or are a coach?
Bottom-line is that you are doing the same think you accuse the haters (maybe if you want to include me) as you imply/claim it gets tiring to hear all the complaints. Well it gets tiring when posters such as yourself make the comment as you did in your 2nd to last paragraph with "once and for all . . ." How many more years are we going to hear this same tired phrase from you Joens-deniers?
Then your last paragraph just adds to the craziness- that you feel sorry for those that can't enjoy team building. I just question whether what you say is maybe not team building but more like team cheerleading. I am not sorry at all for not being a team cheerleader esepcially when the tean has been overall so poor for so long.
And your comment is the same type of comment we probably heard from the years-past Dave Gettlmen crowd. - Please please no more "Once and for all . . ."
How am I denying 2022? All I'm saying is that it's fundamentally illogical to take someone's best performance and assume that that will become his BASELINE floor going forward.
Can only chuckle when Dunk and Terps et al plaintively ask "How am I denying 2022?' cause of course they are because the hole in their whole premise that we 'can never win as long as DJ is the QB' is refuted by the fact that we did win that year with DJ playing a huge role.
You're an even bigger loser than DJ, and just as much of a loser as you were when you were Snablats, dupe.
Expecting a winning record is setting yourself up for disappointment. Having the worst QB room in the league doesn’t help either. I think we’re headed to a 4-6 win finish, per usual.
They face the AFC North who will be difficult. But the rest isnt anything remotely scary. No Detroit or San Francisco on the list. Do we recall how shit Philadelphia looked last year in the second half? The Giants will be bad based on that info but the Eagles get a restart and will have no problems being a top team? They did lose two key figures to their lines, still have been lucky with injuries on the OL and you never know what that can change. Defense is a work in progress and lost their best pass rusher (Reddick). Corner for them is, again, a huge question mark.
So yes, outside the AFC North, the rest are beatable if Daboll can get his guys properly prepared and they can be relatively healthy. Maybe not a playoff team but I don't see them winning 4-6 games, either, especially if their key guys stay healthy.
What I am saying is that I believe there are legitimate rational cases
To be made reflecting both a positive and negative outlook for the up coming season. Often people favor one side and dismiss the other. I personally think it would be hard to confidently predict which sets of factors will prove most substantial and ultimately decide the outcome. I certainly don't mean to discredit anyone with a stronger conviction. My choice to embrace the favorable outcome has more to do with the fact that there has been such negativity around the team for so long and in my gut I do feel we are in a better spot with the current regime than the prior. How much so remains to be seen. So I'm going to be open to the possibility of positive outcome even though I can't claim that that side necessarily has the stronger argument. That's just how I've chosen to approach it, though I do get why others take the opposite.
I also don't understand why anyone would expect a QB by any name in '22 to do anything better than Jones with Slayton, Richie James and Hodgins as his receivers (and even then, look what a revelation Hodgins -- a waiver -- was).
Incomprehensible.
You are hilariously wrong as Jones' underlying passing metrics were bad in 2022. All you've done is highlight his running, which QBR also overemphasizes. If Mara thinks like you we're doomed for a decade. Jones is scared to throw the ball, and his non productive Y/A and ADOT, even in his *fantastic* year 2022, are abysmal. If you think you can win a Super Bowl with Jones you are delusional, and the Cowboys and Eagles must be throwing a party because we're so inept.
Your football expertise is truly awesome. </s>
Jones was #6 overall in 2022 passer rating -- which doesn't factor in rushing.
He was #13 in ESPN total QB rating "ESPN’s Total Quarterback Rating (Total QBR), which was released in 2011, has never claimed to be perfect, but unlike other measures of quarterback performance, it incorporates all of a quarterback’s contributions to winning, including how he impacts the game on passes, rushes, turnovers and penalties. "
I also don't understand why anyone would expect a QB by any name in '22 to do anything better than Jones with Slayton, Richie James and Hodgins as his receivers (and even then, look what a revelation Hodgins -- a waiver -- was).
Incomprehensible.
You are hilariously wrong as Jones' underlying passing metrics were bad in 2022. All you've done is highlight his running, which QBR also overemphasizes. If Mara thinks like you we're doomed for a decade. Jones is scared to throw the ball, and his non productive Y/A and ADOT, even in his *fantastic* year 2022, are abysmal. If you think you can win a Super Bowl with Jones you are delusional, and the Cowboys and Eagles must be throwing a party because we're so inept.
Your football expertise is truly awesome. </s>
Jones was #6 overall in 2022 passer rating -- which doesn't factor in rushing.
He was #13 in ESPN total QB rating "ESPN’s Total Quarterback Rating (Total QBR), which was released in 2011, has never claimed to be perfect, but unlike other measures of quarterback performance, it incorporates all of a quarterback’s contributions to winning, including how he impacts the game on passes, rushes, turnovers and penalties. "
Jones was 6 in QBR, QBR factors rushing. You are confusing QBR and QB rating
I also don't understand why anyone would expect a QB by any name in '22 to do anything better than Jones with Slayton, Richie James and Hodgins as his receivers (and even then, look what a revelation Hodgins -- a waiver -- was).
Incomprehensible.
You are hilariously wrong as Jones' underlying passing metrics were bad in 2022. All you've done is highlight his running, which QBR also overemphasizes. If Mara thinks like you we're doomed for a decade. Jones is scared to throw the ball, and his non productive Y/A and ADOT, even in his *fantastic* year 2022, are abysmal. If you think you can win a Super Bowl with Jones you are delusional, and the Cowboys and Eagles must be throwing a party because we're so inept.
Your football expertise is truly awesome. </s>
Jones was #6 overall in 2022 passer rating -- which doesn't factor in rushing.
He was #13 in ESPN total QB rating "ESPN’s Total Quarterback Rating (Total QBR), which was released in 2011, has never claimed to be perfect, but unlike other measures of quarterback performance, it incorporates all of a quarterback’s contributions to winning, including how he impacts the game on passes, rushes, turnovers and penalties. "
You are mistaken. He was 14th in passer rating. He was a miserable 24th in Y/A. And even more miserable 28th in TD%. He was basically a one read and dash QB, who was afraid of anything downfield. and then good defenses took the dash component away and the Giants went 3-6-1 after a good start.
Here are more stats for you to ponder. His sack rate in 2022 was 26th. Y/G 25th.
Only 6.1 percent of Jones’ pass attempts traveled at least 20 yards in the air in 2022, the 33rd-highest rate in the league. He ranked 32nd in 2021 at 5.9 percent.
Jones’ average pass traveled 3.1 yards short of the first down markers in 2022, which ranked 34th. His average pass traveled 2.7 yards short of the sticks in 2021, which ranked 32nd.
Jones' averaged 6.4 air yards per attempt in 2022, which ranked 30th. He had the same average 2021, which ranked 32nd.
He's not a good passer, and 2022, his good season shows a QB who got away with playing scared for a little while before defenses figured him out. He can't, and won't, challenge defenses, attack them where it really matters. He will continue to dink and dunk. And Jones cultists like yourself will continue to tell us we are watching a talented QB.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I think this team
He had an extremely low turnover rate, which pumped up his rating #s. Part of that is being careful and conservative. Part is just good luck though. Even being extremely conservative and careful, you'll still run into some bad bounces and random plays that result in TOs.
You can't rely on never turning it over as the foundation of your offense.
He had an extremely low turnover rate, which pumped up his rating #s. Part of that is being careful and conservative. Part is just good luck though. Even being extremely conservative and careful, you'll still run into some bad bounces and random plays that result in TOs.
You can't rely on never turning it over as the foundation of your offense.
Agreed on all counts. But I also think it was -- rightfully -- a point of emphasis. Turnovers are always costly, but without explosive playmakers they're deadly.
If you look into the 2022 stats it tells quite a story. Here are the Giants' league rankings in the following offensive stats:
Total number of plays run: 13th
Rush attempts: 8th
Pass attempts: 25th
Yards/Rush Attempt: 5th
Yards/Pass Attempt: 24th
Intended air yards/pass attempt: 30th
Pass TD%: 26th
Pass Int%: 1st (meaning lowest percentage of intercepted passed in the league)
In sum, here's the 2022 Giants passing offense, in an image:
Then when they tried to put a little more on Jones in 2023, we got this:
Daniel Jones wasn't a good passer in 2022. He was a good runner. And now he's recovering from a torn ACL.
Jones' performance in '22-solid, not speculator-tells me more that Dabs is a good coach than it tells me anything re. Jones.
Thank you for proving my case: (from above) Can only chuckle when Dunk and Terps et al plaintively ask "How am I denying 2022?' cause of course they are because the hole in their whole premise that we 'can never win as long as DJ is the QB' is refuted by the fact that we did win that year with DJ playing a huge role. So we have to cherry pick some negative stats or claim the playoff win was meaningless because the Vikings didn't have a good defence. and now give all the credit to the coach. Anything but hey the guy played pretty well that year without much around him. And on and on and on they go!!
"We did win that year with Jones playing a huge role"
My recollection is they went 10-8-1, finished third in the division, went 1-5-1 in the division, went 0-5 against Philly and Dallas, and were absolutely destroyed in Philly to end the year.
My recollection is they went 10-8-1, finished third in the division, went 1-5-1 in the division, went 0-5 against Philly and Dallas, and were absolutely destroyed in Philly to end the year.
What did they win?
Love you guys!! You holler that 'we don't post any of that kind of shit you accuse us of' and then you go out and post a lot of that kind of shit!!
My recollection is they went 10-8-1, finished third in the division, went 1-5-1 in the division, went 0-5 against Philly and Dallas, and were absolutely destroyed in Philly to end the year.
What did they win?
Love you guys!! You holler that 'we don't post any of that kind of shit you accuse us of' and then you go out and post a lot of that kind of shit!!
I am in the GT camp, with some caveats...Jones wasn't special in '22, but I also don't think he was a backseat passenger that season. He had his moments. That said, again I think a lot of his success in '22 can be attributed to Dabs/Kafka game planning-RPOs, having him take off if the first option wasn't there, & playing it very conservatively.
& let's face it...he was awful in '23. & I know the OL sucked-I'm not going to dispute that-but he wasn't good either & when one is making $40 million...the excuses go out the window.
I legit believe this is a make or break season for him. If he sucks, he's gone. If he shines-& I hope he does because it'll mean the Giants are in all likelihood good-he'll be back in '25. Gun to head, I'm expecting the former, but I hope to be proven wrong.
You literally just bucketed DJ and Eli together as the same level of "just below elite" QBs the other day.
a) I didn't/don't worship Eli; b) the comment you are referring to was a sarcastic reply to Go Terps (re: two talking heads naming Jones as the worst case scenario for Trevor Lawrence).
Man, that's damn good sarcasm. You'd never know if you didn't tell us.
I think that's right. I've said all along, I think there is a wide range of outcomes for this team. God forbid Dexter goes down for an extended period, for example. But I do feel that last year we suffered more than our share of impactful injuries, so there's that. Plus, the way I look at it --nobody can anticipate all the question marks. Why not embrace the positive potential over walking around with our tail between our legs all the time? I do feel better about our current coach and GM than prior. These may not be the guys, I'm not guaranteeing they are. But the prior administration was much more clearly NOT the guys at a similar point, IMO. So I've elected to stay positive, by choice.
That’s fine as is your choice. While others may want to see at least a few tangible indicators that the team could be heading in a positive direction before simply embracing it.
And projecting less than positive doesn’t mean fans are typically walking around with their tails between their legs. I think that may be more reserved for those expecting and/or touting the presumptive positive and then watching the losses pile up again as matter of fact.
That is fair Thomas. I was not saying others have tail between legs, so much as I was indicating that I choose not to. It's a personal choice in disposition given the absence of of certainty one way or another, if that makes sense.
Ok Uber. Let's move on as to our personal choices of being a NYG fan.
Jones' performance in '22-solid, not speculator-tells me more that Dabs is a good coach than it tells me anything re. Jones.
Thank you for proving my case: (from above) Can only chuckle when Dunk and Terps et al plaintively ask "How am I denying 2022?' cause of course they are because the hole in their whole premise that we 'can never win as long as DJ is the QB' is refuted by the fact that we did win that year with DJ playing a huge role. So we have to cherry pick some negative stats or claim the playoff win was meaningless because the Vikings didn't have a good defence. and now give all the credit to the coach. Anything but hey the guy played pretty well that year without much around him. And on and on and on they go!!
Post of the Day winner in my book. Congrats!
If it is fact that the Giants won in 2022 with DJ playing a huge role, will you stipulate that he also plays a huge role in the more-frequent losing over his career? Or does it only go one-way?
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In comment 16530296 Gatorade Dunk said:
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Taking someone's best season by far and declaring it their floor is not particularly logical, but it's very much on brand for your embarrassing DJ-worship.
Considering that he couldn't've had a weaker supporting cast, I think it's fair to say it's his floor. Can you point out a team that was weaker at OL and WR than the Giants were in 2022?
You're spot on. Just like flat earthers, people can ignore '22 all they want and toss in conspiracy theories about how Daboll/Schoen were forced to give Jones a deal rather than accepting facts borne by actual stats and film: his '22 performance in literally EVERYTHING under his control - accuracy on target, turnovers, yards per run, total running yards, was excellent, and his overall passing numbers were average (as a #14 QBR would suggest).
If '22 says he's "just a game manager" it was exactly the kind of game manager you can win a SB with. Led the league in accuracy and lowest TO rate. And was amongst the leaders and all rushing categories. He can't block rushers or throw to himself.
I also don't understand why anyone would expect a QB by any name in '22 to do anything better than Jones with Slayton, Richie James and Hodgins as his receivers (and even then, look what a revelation Hodgins -- a waiver -- was).
Incomprehensible.
You are hilariously wrong as Jones' underlying passing metrics were bad in 2022. All you've done is highlight his running, which QBR also overemphasizes. If Mara thinks like you we're doomed for a decade. Jones is scared to throw the ball, and his non productive Y/A and ADOT, even in his *fantastic* year 2022, are abysmal. If you think you can win a Super Bowl with Jones you are delusional, and the Cowboys and Eagles must be throwing a party because we're so inept.
I would be surprised if Washington is not better than us this year.
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Washington is gonna be better than us.
I would be surprised if Washington is not better than us this year.
You know you are going to suck ass when fans are hand wringing over whether or not the fucking Redskins will be better than us…
I think that maybe the Cowboys who haven't won a Super Bowl in almost three decades - in fact they haven't won a non-Wild Card playoff game in that period - maybe should be more focused on their own house!
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In comment 16530312 Gatorade Dunk said:
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You literally just bucketed DJ and Eli together as the same level of "just below elite" QBs the other day.
a) I didn't/don't worship Eli; b) the comment you are referring to was a sarcastic reply to Go Terps (re: two talking heads naming Jones as the worst case scenario for Trevor Lawrence).
Maybe it's time for some self-reflection on your part then, because your supposedly sarcastic DJ posts and your genuinely sincere DJ posts are impossible to separate from one another.
And I don't think you were being sarcastic anyway.
Fanboy Milton is an easy read. If Jones never pans out, well, all of his praises were always meant to be sarcasm.
I hope some day the Giants provide an opportunity for us to find out!
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In comment 16530154 UberAlias said:
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I think that's right. I've said all along, I think there is a wide range of outcomes for this team. God forbid Dexter goes down for an extended period, for example. But I do feel that last year we suffered more than our share of impactful injuries, so there's that. Plus, the way I look at it --nobody can anticipate all the question marks. Why not embrace the positive potential over walking around with our tail between our legs all the time? I do feel better about our current coach and GM than prior. These may not be the guys, I'm not guaranteeing they are. But the prior administration was much more clearly NOT the guys at a similar point, IMO. So I've elected to stay positive, by choice.
That’s fine as is your choice. While others may want to see at least a few tangible indicators that the team could be heading in a positive direction before simply embracing it.
And projecting less than positive doesn’t mean fans are typically walking around with their tails between their legs. I think that may be more reserved for those expecting and/or touting the presumptive positive and then watching the losses pile up again as matter of fact.
That is fair Thomas. I was not saying others have tail between legs, so much as I was indicating that I choose not to. It's a personal choice in disposition given the absence of of certainty one way or another, if that makes sense.
Thw problem is that they have been bad for so many years - you can't blame the negativity. And in this case there has to be a reminder that Jones has been injury prone and that his mobility is probably less too.
Also, we hav a pro evaluator here named SY - who has said since early on - Jones is slow to read. He had a terrific RB in which he could also run well. Those are both gone-- now a better OL (not sure if it will be better in re to run blocking vs 2022 in that Giants are going to look to open things up more vs "pound") but better but now you may have a QB becoming more exposed to have to play to his weakness.
All-in-all that might not be good. i expect 6-7 wins. If things crash as low as 4 - if some mini-end of game extreme moments- up to 9. Part of the numbers are that Jones has the possibility - higher than most/nearly all qbs -- of getting hurt.
Being positive despite all this just seems a leap too far. And just because the OL is better doesn't mean it's good. It could be average or sub par. If its' good obviously 7+ feaisble depending on Jones / health etc.
If push came to shove I would go with under 6.5 wins. In a passing league our QB has more limited scrambling and is more injury prone and won't have as much of a running game in which he isn't that great of an overal "reader;" - that doesn't leave me with a good feeling.
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is more talented than people think. Except at the QB position. And that is what will hold them back.
Other than ER/OLB I’m not sure what position group we are clearly above average?
DT? - 1 great player then….
ILB - 1 very good player then…
WR?
Above average ER/OLB?
Other than Okereke, an ILB, who consistently tackled the ball carrier last year?
(2) People who are so convinced of their knowledge that they root for the Giants to lose to bring about their desired outcome of roster/front office construction.
I think there's more (1) than (2) here, but I find both types of fans grating at times.
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Other than ER/OLB I’m not sure what position group we are clearly above average?
DT? - 1 great player then….
ILB - 1 very good player then…
WR?
Let's say, for the sake of argument, you're right about ER being a position group that's above average. Now add in the potential for our WR group to be above average if Malik Nabers is the real deal, Wan'Dale Robinson has a healthy year, and Hyatt develops as hoped. Well, pass-rushing and pass-cathing are two of the most important position groups in the NFL given it's a passing league. If the pass-rusher and pass-catchers are complemented by an average OL position group and an average back seven, that's the makings of a pretty good team if our QB plays well. And contrary to the haters and the lovers, Daniel Jones remains a mystery man. As demonstrated by his 2022 season, he is at worst, a competent game manager, but the potential is there for him to be more than that given an average OL and an above average WR group (compared to the pathetic OL and WR groups that he carried on his back in 2022).
p.s.--People discount his road playoff victory over the Vikings in 2022 because they poo-poo the Vikings pass-defense, but if you factor in our dogshit OL and WRs, you could argue that that's what you get from Daniel Jones in a fair fight. With an OL that can keep him from constantly running for his life and receivers that even top defenses need to actually gameplan against, it will be interesting to see how Jones performs...if he can stay healthy.
1-- An injury prone QB.
2--- A QB known to be slow to read.
3-- A QB whose best success has been his ability to use his legs which are now compromised to a degree.
I wouldn't call this position- the most important position on the field as "avaerage" while looking to put a positive spin on things.
I think people are downplaying the loss of Barkley. That has to be accounted for along with Mckinney.
I think this is a 5 or 6 win team.
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To be honest, I'm not exactly sure what purpose you serve when the team is good.
I hope some day the Giants provide an opportunity for us to find out!
Me too. I don't understand the posters that get angry when you just observe existing conditions.
Uber said it himself: he's making the choice to be positive. He isn't being objective. That's a completely fine way to be, but not everyone is going to be that.
Objectively, this team can, with average injury and "bounce of the ball" luck reasonably be expected to be well into the bottom half of the league. With good luck they can be middle of the league. With bad luck they can be among the very worst in the league. What they can't be is among the very best in the league.
People with no skin in the game are making the same observation. It isn't offensive.
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In comment 16530296 Gatorade Dunk said:
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Taking someone's best season by far and declaring it their floor is not particularly logical, but it's very much on brand for your embarrassing DJ-worship.
Considering that he couldn't've had a weaker supporting cast, I think it's fair to say it's his floor. Can you point out a team that was weaker at OL and WR than the Giants were in 2022?
You're spot on. Just like flat earthers, people can ignore '22 all they want and toss in conspiracy theories about how Daboll/Schoen were forced to give Jones a deal rather than accepting facts borne by actual stats and film: his '22 performance in literally EVERYTHING under his control - accuracy on target, turnovers, yards per run, total running yards, was excellent, and his overall passing numbers were average (as a #14 QBR would suggest).
If '22 says he's "just a game manager" it was exactly the kind of game manager you can win a SB with. Led the league in accuracy and lowest TO rate. And was amongst the leaders and all rushing categories. He can't block rushers or throw to himself.
I also don't understand why anyone would expect a QB by any name in '22 to do anything better than Jones with Slayton, Richie James and Hodgins as his receivers (and even then, look what a revelation Hodgins -- a waiver -- was).
Incomprehensible.
How am I denying 2022? All I'm saying is that it's fundamentally illogical to take someone's best performance and assume that that will become his BASELINE floor going forward.
Can only chuckle when Dunk and Terps et al plaintively ask "How am I denying 2022?' cause of course they are because the hole in their whole premise that we 'can never win as long as DJ is the QB' is refuted by the fact that we did win that year with DJ playing a huge role. So we have to cherry pick some negative stats or claim the playoff win was meaningless because the Vikings didn't have a good defence.
Personally I take these pre-season prognostications with a grain of salt. Its why they actually play the games. I also come at from the perspective of someone who played sports for a good part of their life and even coached a little bit at a modestly high level. And as a player or coach you always go into a season with some optimism because I can guarantee that if you go into a season thinking that you suck; that you're awful you will be!
And I'm going into this season basically cautiously optimistic. No question the Giants went thru a dismal stretch especially 2017 thru 2021 when they were what 22-59. But they were 16-19-1 the past two years including a playoff appearance. There's also no question that they are slowly, but surely building a core of good young players. As several people have noted it takes time; the Giants didn't win a SB under George Young until his 8th year (and in fact were something like 26-46 in his first 5 years and 3-12-1 in his 5th!) So I doubt that the Giants are true 'contenders' this year but thinking they could be 2-3 years out from a disaster is just totally unrealistic.
And needless to say there is still work to be done. First and foremost to resolve the QB issue, firstly by finding out once and for all whether Jones is the guy; if not either thru the draft or finding a vet in the draft or free agency.
In the meantime, I kind of feel sorry for all the naysayers who are missing out on one of the most fascinating parts of the whole team-building process.
You do get that by debating these topics, the naysayers are in point-of-fact not missing out on this fascinating part, right?
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How am I denying 2022? All I'm saying is that it's fundamentally illogical to take someone's best performance and assume that that will become his BASELINE floor going forward.
Can only chuckle when Dunk and Terps et al plaintively ask "How am I denying 2022?' cause of course they are because the hole in their whole premise that we 'can never win as long as DJ is the QB' is refuted by the fact that we did win that year with DJ playing a huge role. So we have to cherry pick some negative stats or claim the playoff win was meaningless because the Vikings didn't have a good defence.
Personally I take these pre-season prognostications with a grain of salt. Its why they actually play the games. I also come at from the perspective of someone who played sports for a good part of their life and even coached a little bit at a modestly high level. And as a player or coach you always go into a season with some optimism because I can guarantee that if you go into a season thinking that you suck; that you're awful you will be!
And I'm going into this season basically cautiously optimistic. No question the Giants went thru a dismal stretch especially 2017 thru 2021 when they were what 22-59. But they were 16-19-1 the past two years including a playoff appearance. There's also no question that they are slowly, but surely building a core of good young players. As several people have noted it takes time; the Giants didn't win a SB under George Young until his 8th year (and in fact were something like 26-46 in his first 5 years and 3-12-1 in his 5th!) So I doubt that the Giants are true 'contenders' this year but thinking they could be 2-3 years out from a disaster is just totally unrealistic.
And needless to say there is still work to be done. First and foremost to resolve the QB issue, firstly by finding out once and for all whether Jones is the guy; if not either thru the draft or finding a vet in the draft or free agency.
In the meantime, I kind of feel sorry for all the naysayers who are missing out on one of the most fascinating parts of the whole team-building process.
I've disagreed a ton with both guys you mentioned. A ton. But that aside - you have to recognized that you are not a coach for the Giants. You're on a site discussing "team."
You’re not the catch so why you think bringing up how your team "feels" going into a season and relating it to this team on this discussion board is completely irrelevant. If many feel a player or team is not good - how is it remotely relevant that you felt a need to repress your preseason optimism when you were/ or are a coach?
Bottom-line is that you are doing the same think you accuse the haters (maybe if you want to include me) as you imply/claim it gets tiring to hear all the complaints. Well it gets tiring when posters such as yourself make the comment as you did in your 2nd to last paragraph with "once and for all . . ." How many more years are we going to hear this same tired phrase from you Joens-deniers?
Then your last paragraph just adds to the craziness- that you feel sorry for those that can't enjoy team building. I just question whether what you say is maybe not team building but more like team cheerleading. I am not sorry at all for not being a team cheerleader esepcially when the tean has been overall so poor for so long.
And your comment is the same type of comment we probably heard from the years-past Dave Gettlmen crowd. - Please please no more "Once and for all . . ."
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How am I denying 2022? All I'm saying is that it's fundamentally illogical to take someone's best performance and assume that that will become his BASELINE floor going forward.
Can only chuckle when Dunk and Terps et al plaintively ask "How am I denying 2022?' cause of course they are because the hole in their whole premise that we 'can never win as long as DJ is the QB' is refuted by the fact that we did win that year with DJ playing a huge role.
You're an even bigger loser than DJ, and just as much of a loser as you were when you were Snablats, dupe.
Ah yes, the kind of witty repartee one comes to expect on this site!
Ah yes, the kind of witty repartee one comes to expect on this site!
You're barely worth the words I already wasted on you. Run along now.
Ah yes, the kind of witty repartee one comes to expect on this site!
Do you recognize the majority of your contributions to this site center around:
1) Not enjoying this site
2) Discouraging other from debating football
?
They face the AFC North who will be difficult. But the rest isnt anything remotely scary. No Detroit or San Francisco on the list. Do we recall how shit Philadelphia looked last year in the second half? The Giants will be bad based on that info but the Eagles get a restart and will have no problems being a top team? They did lose two key figures to their lines, still have been lucky with injuries on the OL and you never know what that can change. Defense is a work in progress and lost their best pass rusher (Reddick). Corner for them is, again, a huge question mark.
So yes, outside the AFC North, the rest are beatable if Daboll can get his guys properly prepared and they can be relatively healthy. Maybe not a playoff team but I don't see them winning 4-6 games, either, especially if their key guys stay healthy.
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In comment 16530306 Milton said:
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I also don't understand why anyone would expect a QB by any name in '22 to do anything better than Jones with Slayton, Richie James and Hodgins as his receivers (and even then, look what a revelation Hodgins -- a waiver -- was).
Incomprehensible.
You are hilariously wrong as Jones' underlying passing metrics were bad in 2022. All you've done is highlight his running, which QBR also overemphasizes. If Mara thinks like you we're doomed for a decade. Jones is scared to throw the ball, and his non productive Y/A and ADOT, even in his *fantastic* year 2022, are abysmal. If you think you can win a Super Bowl with Jones you are delusional, and the Cowboys and Eagles must be throwing a party because we're so inept.
Your football expertise is truly awesome. </s>
Jones was #6 overall in 2022 passer rating -- which doesn't factor in rushing.
He was #13 in ESPN total QB rating "ESPN’s Total Quarterback Rating (Total QBR), which was released in 2011, has never claimed to be perfect, but unlike other measures of quarterback performance, it incorporates all of a quarterback’s contributions to winning, including how he impacts the game on passes, rushes, turnovers and penalties. "
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In comment 16530349 HBart said:
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In comment 16530306 Milton said:
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I also don't understand why anyone would expect a QB by any name in '22 to do anything better than Jones with Slayton, Richie James and Hodgins as his receivers (and even then, look what a revelation Hodgins -- a waiver -- was).
Incomprehensible.
You are hilariously wrong as Jones' underlying passing metrics were bad in 2022. All you've done is highlight his running, which QBR also overemphasizes. If Mara thinks like you we're doomed for a decade. Jones is scared to throw the ball, and his non productive Y/A and ADOT, even in his *fantastic* year 2022, are abysmal. If you think you can win a Super Bowl with Jones you are delusional, and the Cowboys and Eagles must be throwing a party because we're so inept.
Your football expertise is truly awesome. </s>
Jones was #6 overall in 2022 passer rating -- which doesn't factor in rushing.
He was #13 in ESPN total QB rating "ESPN’s Total Quarterback Rating (Total QBR), which was released in 2011, has never claimed to be perfect, but unlike other measures of quarterback performance, it incorporates all of a quarterback’s contributions to winning, including how he impacts the game on passes, rushes, turnovers and penalties. "
Jones was 6 in QBR, QBR factors rushing. You are confusing QBR and QB rating
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_quarterback_rating
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In comment 16530349 HBart said:
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In comment 16530306 Milton said:
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I also don't understand why anyone would expect a QB by any name in '22 to do anything better than Jones with Slayton, Richie James and Hodgins as his receivers (and even then, look what a revelation Hodgins -- a waiver -- was).
Incomprehensible.
You are hilariously wrong as Jones' underlying passing metrics were bad in 2022. All you've done is highlight his running, which QBR also overemphasizes. If Mara thinks like you we're doomed for a decade. Jones is scared to throw the ball, and his non productive Y/A and ADOT, even in his *fantastic* year 2022, are abysmal. If you think you can win a Super Bowl with Jones you are delusional, and the Cowboys and Eagles must be throwing a party because we're so inept.
Your football expertise is truly awesome. </s>
Jones was #6 overall in 2022 passer rating -- which doesn't factor in rushing.
He was #13 in ESPN total QB rating "ESPN’s Total Quarterback Rating (Total QBR), which was released in 2011, has never claimed to be perfect, but unlike other measures of quarterback performance, it incorporates all of a quarterback’s contributions to winning, including how he impacts the game on passes, rushes, turnovers and penalties. "
You are mistaken. He was 14th in passer rating. He was a miserable 24th in Y/A. And even more miserable 28th in TD%. He was basically a one read and dash QB, who was afraid of anything downfield. and then good defenses took the dash component away and the Giants went 3-6-1 after a good start.
Here are more stats for you to ponder. His sack rate in 2022 was 26th. Y/G 25th.
Only 6.1 percent of Jones’ pass attempts traveled at least 20 yards in the air in 2022, the 33rd-highest rate in the league. He ranked 32nd in 2021 at 5.9 percent.
Jones’ average pass traveled 3.1 yards short of the first down markers in 2022, which ranked 34th. His average pass traveled 2.7 yards short of the sticks in 2021, which ranked 32nd.
Jones' averaged 6.4 air yards per attempt in 2022, which ranked 30th. He had the same average 2021, which ranked 32nd.
He's not a good passer, and 2022, his good season shows a QB who got away with playing scared for a little while before defenses figured him out. He can't, and won't, challenge defenses, attack them where it really matters. He will continue to dink and dunk. And Jones cultists like yourself will continue to tell us we are watching a talented QB.
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In comment 16530368 Darwinian said:
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In comment 16530349 HBart said:
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In comment 16530306 Milton said:
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And Jones cultists like yourself will continue to tell us we are watching a talented QB.
Or what he said
You can't rely on never turning it over as the foundation of your offense.
You can't rely on never turning it over as the foundation of your offense.
Agreed on all counts. But I also think it was -- rightfully -- a point of emphasis. Turnovers are always costly, but without explosive playmakers they're deadly.
Total number of plays run: 13th
Rush attempts: 8th
Pass attempts: 25th
Yards/Rush Attempt: 5th
Yards/Pass Attempt: 24th
Intended air yards/pass attempt: 30th
Pass TD%: 26th
Pass Int%: 1st (meaning lowest percentage of intercepted passed in the league)
In sum, here's the 2022 Giants passing offense, in an image:
Then when they tried to put a little more on Jones in 2023, we got this:
Daniel Jones wasn't a good passer in 2022. He was a good runner. And now he's recovering from a torn ACL.
Totally agree with this
Thank you for proving my case: (from above) Can only chuckle when Dunk and Terps et al plaintively ask "How am I denying 2022?' cause of course they are because the hole in their whole premise that we 'can never win as long as DJ is the QB' is refuted by the fact that we did win that year with DJ playing a huge role. So we have to cherry pick some negative stats or claim the playoff win was meaningless because the Vikings didn't have a good defence. and now give all the credit to the coach. Anything but hey the guy played pretty well that year without much around him. And on and on and on they go!!
What did they win?
What did they win?
Love you guys!! You holler that 'we don't post any of that kind of shit you accuse us of' and then you go out and post a lot of that kind of shit!!
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My recollection is they went 10-8-1, finished third in the division, went 1-5-1 in the division, went 0-5 against Philly and Dallas, and were absolutely destroyed in Philly to end the year.
What did they win?
Love you guys!! You holler that 'we don't post any of that kind of shit you accuse us of' and then you go out and post a lot of that kind of shit!!
I don't know what any of that means.
& let's face it...he was awful in '23. & I know the OL sucked-I'm not going to dispute that-but he wasn't good either & when one is making $40 million...the excuses go out the window.
I legit believe this is a make or break season for him. If he sucks, he's gone. If he shines-& I hope he does because it'll mean the Giants are in all likelihood good-he'll be back in '25. Gun to head, I'm expecting the former, but I hope to be proven wrong.
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You literally just bucketed DJ and Eli together as the same level of "just below elite" QBs the other day.
a) I didn't/don't worship Eli; b) the comment you are referring to was a sarcastic reply to Go Terps (re: two talking heads naming Jones as the worst case scenario for Trevor Lawrence).
Man, that's damn good sarcasm. You'd never know if you didn't tell us.
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In comment 16530154 UberAlias said:
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I think that's right. I've said all along, I think there is a wide range of outcomes for this team. God forbid Dexter goes down for an extended period, for example. But I do feel that last year we suffered more than our share of impactful injuries, so there's that. Plus, the way I look at it --nobody can anticipate all the question marks. Why not embrace the positive potential over walking around with our tail between our legs all the time? I do feel better about our current coach and GM than prior. These may not be the guys, I'm not guaranteeing they are. But the prior administration was much more clearly NOT the guys at a similar point, IMO. So I've elected to stay positive, by choice.
That’s fine as is your choice. While others may want to see at least a few tangible indicators that the team could be heading in a positive direction before simply embracing it.
And projecting less than positive doesn’t mean fans are typically walking around with their tails between their legs. I think that may be more reserved for those expecting and/or touting the presumptive positive and then watching the losses pile up again as matter of fact.
That is fair Thomas. I was not saying others have tail between legs, so much as I was indicating that I choose not to. It's a personal choice in disposition given the absence of of certainty one way or another, if that makes sense.
Ok Uber. Let's move on as to our personal choices of being a NYG fan.
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Jones' performance in '22-solid, not speculator-tells me more that Dabs is a good coach than it tells me anything re. Jones.
Thank you for proving my case: (from above) Can only chuckle when Dunk and Terps et al plaintively ask "How am I denying 2022?' cause of course they are because the hole in their whole premise that we 'can never win as long as DJ is the QB' is refuted by the fact that we did win that year with DJ playing a huge role. So we have to cherry pick some negative stats or claim the playoff win was meaningless because the Vikings didn't have a good defence. and now give all the credit to the coach. Anything but hey the guy played pretty well that year without much around him. And on and on and on they go!!
Post of the Day winner in my book. Congrats!
If it is fact that the Giants won in 2022 with DJ playing a huge role, will you stipulate that he also plays a huge role in the more-frequent losing over his career? Or does it only go one-way?
We have five years of answer. Some of it good, more of it bad.
The only reason some don't accept the answer is simply denial.