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Build the Right Way

mittenedman : 6/8/2024 8:25 pm
Something Schoen's been preaching since he was hired is building things the right way. A sustainable winner. Through the draft, with homegrown players the fans can get behind. It takes longer than going for quick strikes in free agency. Buying a ring.

He's also preached positional value in the draft. These are his premium picks in the 1st 2 rounds since he's been here, and his big ticket free agent contracts:

QB - Daniel Jones (27, 2027)
WR1 - Malik Nabers (21, 2028)
WR2 - Jalin Hyatt (23, 2027)
slot - Wan'dale Robinson (23, 2026)
LT - Andrew Thomas (25, 2030)
C - John Michael Schmitz (25, 2027)
RT - Evan Neal (24, 2026)
DE - Brian Burns (26, 2029)
DE - Kayvon Thibodeaux (24, 2026)
DT - Dexter Lawrence (27, 2028)
3-down MLB - Bobby Okereke (28, 2027)
CB1 - Tae Banks (23, 2027)
S - Tyler Nubin (23, 2028)

This is the core of the football team. Pretty much the definition of built through the draft. That is more impact players than they've had in the past, enough to steer the team to wins. Following how this group of 13 develops is the story of the season. If these guys are clicking, they actually have some decent role players around them if not asked to do too much.
I've been critical of Schoen, but he's planted his best seeds in the right places, and people could be sleeping on this team, especially with Daboll taking over playcalling.
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Good post.  
SleepyOwl : 6/8/2024 9:08 pm : link
Schoen has done a great job of rebuilding the core of this team. As we know the

Thing that separates great teams from the mediocre teams is the ability to draft

And develop players drafted on day two and day three.

I’m looking at guys like

McFadden

Belton

Gray

Flott

Bellinger

Johnson

Philips

A few others Riley, Davidson, Ezeudu. These players to me are truly the difference makers.

Good post.  
bceagle05 : 6/8/2024 9:12 pm : link
Definitely more talent now than there’s been over the last few years.

Need at least one of Neal or JMS to be part of the solution up front though.
Say what you want about Schoen  
Breeze_94 : 6/8/2024 9:23 pm : link
But about 90% of his picks in the first 4-5 rounds I’ve liked at the time of the selection. Only ones I didn’t love were Ezeudu and Flott. Was lukewarm on Belton, Phillips & Hyatt. Loved the rest of em (Thibs, Neal, WDR, Banks, JMs, Nabers, Nubin, Gray, Tracy, Johnson
An unbiased assessmemt  
gridirony : 6/8/2024 9:48 pm : link
Jones - not GM's pick, sucks against .500+ teams
Nabors - unproven, but tremendous potential
Hyatt - young, has more potential than shown
Robinson - can this talent stay healthy
Thomas - not GM's pick, offensive cornerstone
JMS - total ? if he'll be good
Neal - see JMS
Burns - not building through draft, needs to stop running past QB on rush
Thibodeaux - needs to show up every game
Lawrence - not GM's pick, defensive cornerstone
Okereke- not building through draft, a big play player
Banks - excellent coverage man, and only a rookie
Nubin - unproven, very good potential

There are far too many question marks as to whether that is the core of sustainable winning. More time may tell. If everything clicks, and each player makes the other players around them better, winning could come this year.

On paper, not the field, it certainly looks better than the recent past.

Good post indeed  
ThomasG : 6/8/2024 9:56 pm : link
If Schoen can get everybody on board and execute an investment in a new QB then maybe we’ll really have something.

Until then, it’s just a good post.
Inclined to  
BigBlueinDE : 6/8/2024 10:00 pm : link
agree. Despite what some say, I think they're going in the right direction.
 
christian : 6/8/2024 10:06 pm : link
A number of those players were not free agents or top two round picks.

Schoen's built the core of the team pretty evenly through Gettleman picks, trades, free agency, and the draft.
It's all down to the OL and player health  
Paulie Walnuts : 6/8/2024 10:22 pm : link
If they are decent we'll have a good year
What concerns me is the offense.  
Red Right Hand : 6/8/2024 11:20 pm : link
we have no one with any history of NFL production at RB OR TE besides Singletary and Bellinger.

Tracy might be nie, Johnson might be nice, but as of now neither has done anything, nor any of the other RBs or TEs currently on the roster, assuming Waller flakes, which seems likely.
On that list, outside of Thomas and Lawrence,  
Dave in Hoboken : 6/8/2024 11:25 pm : link
you could make the argument that you need to see more out of all of those guys.
The OP is wrong again  
giantstock : 6/9/2024 12:31 am : link
Just continues to have the The Blue Shafes fixated.

Whatever- hope they win. GM and Coach probably aren't getting the job done yaer 3 - we'll still be Dallas and Philly's bitch in which Wash may seem to have a better future.

We'll see.
The plan is fine  
Bill in UT : 6/9/2024 1:29 am : link
It'll come down to whether the players are right. We've got 4 proven guys- Thomas, Okereke, Burns and Dex. No one else has put together 2 top level seasons. The potential is there, but let's see this year if it comes together.
By my count 5 of the 13  
TrueBlue56 : 6/9/2024 6:40 am : link
Are either free agent acquisitions or players here under gettleman. Joe Schoen just had his 3rd draft. Andrew Thomas had his detractors on here after his 1st year and even some after his 2nd season. Dexter didn't become the player he was until Wink came in and moved him to DT.

The players drafted under Schoen are entering their 3rd, 2nd or rookie year. Thibodeaux will benefit with the addition of Burns. Evan Neal remains to be seen. Wandale Robinson has shown his ability and he will benefit with Nabers and Hyatt stretching defenses.

Last year, Banks more than held his own as a rookie. JMS, while not bad needs to improve and I believe he will.

This year, Nabers looks like he will garner a lot of attention from opposing defenses and that will open up the other wide receivers and running game. Tyler Nubin has potential.

What I see is Joe Schoen focusing on premium positions in the first round of the draft (offensive tackle, wide receiver, cornerback and pass rusher).

In the 2nd round, while some may not be premium positions, he addressed offensive line, safety and wide receiver.
For me, the biggest questions are Neal and Schmitz. If they improve  
Ira : 6/9/2024 6:47 am : link
to be solid starters for us, the whole offense will benefit greatly.
Better overall talent and potential  
MarvelousMike : 6/9/2024 7:01 am : link
than 3 years ago. However, we still have a team with the average age being a top 5 lowest in the league. They have been on the wrong side of the curve when it comes to injuries and need to have a year or two when they have near the lowest to allow development to actually occur.
First time GM in Schoen so hopefully the learning curve there has flattened out and there will be less staff changes.
 
christian : 6/9/2024 7:28 am : link
The presumptive starters on offense:

Jones
Singletary
Nabers*
Slayton
Robinson*
Bellinger*
Thomas
Runyan
JMS*
Eluemunor
Neal*

And defense

Davidson*
Lawrence
Roches
Burns
Thibs*
Okereke
McFadden*
Flott*
Banks*
Pinnock
Nubin*
Just like the NFL on the field, you hear  
robbieballs2003 : 6/9/2024 8:18 am : link
"More games are lost than won in the NFL". What that means is it isn't always the teams that make the plays, it is the team that makes the fewest mistakes. I agree that his approach to the draft is more than fine. However, having Neal not work out yet as a top 7 picks, giving Jones that horrendous contract, hanging on to Barkley and McKinney too long and not trading them are all big mistakes that have really overshadowed anything he has done well. Long story short, every GM will have misses but you can't miss big like those misses and expect to compete when you are trying to rebuild a team. Successful teams like the Eagles can miss on Wentz with his contract and make up for it with Hurts. This is a very pivotal year.
Look we all know which name probably doesn't belong on the OP's  
nygiantfan : 6/9/2024 8:27 am : link
list under the "building the right way" theme. It is fairly remarkable a QB can play at that level, pile up injury concerns, and still keep a starting job. I have never seen anything like it in my time of watching ANY sport.

I do, however, like the flow of investments into WR, OL and Edge. If Neal begins to play like he at least belongs in the NFL this is clearly a much better roster than the Dave Gettleman years.

Winning still probably gets capped though until an upgrade is found at QB.
 
christian : 6/9/2024 9:41 am : link
I also don't how much the build through the draft purity test holds when the Giants traded the 39th pick and a 4/9.4M contract for the opportunity to sign a veteran player to a 5/141M contract.
The drafts have been a huge issue  
Lines of Scrimmage : 6/9/2024 10:05 am : link
FA fell off significantly as well. Just a really bad job by the front office for over a decade.

It took 16 drafts to add another AP OL in AT (Snee 2004) in the draft and 9 years on the DL from JPP to Dex.

First three seasons of TC/EA they added a lot of talent on the OL/Front 7 via both DP/FA. 8 good to great players.

This regime is still behind imv but maybe this is the year they finally leave the great destruction of the Giants LoS phase.

RE: …  
TrueBlue56 : 6/9/2024 10:14 am : link
In comment 16533287 christian said:
Quote:
I also don't how much the build through the draft purity test holds when the Giants traded the 39th pick and a 4/9.4M contract for the opportunity to sign a veteran player to a 5/141M contract.


And they traded Leonard Williams for a 2nd round pick. Plus it wasn't like Burns was some 30+ veteran. He is 26 and drafted the same year as Dexter.
...  
christian : 6/9/2024 10:27 am : link
In comment 16533301 TrueBlue56 said:
Quote:
I also don't how much the build through the draft purity test holds when the Giants traded the 39th pick and a 4/9.4M contract for the opportunity to sign a veteran player to a 5/141M contract.

And they traded Leonard Williams for a 2nd round pick. Plus it wasn't like Burns was some 30+ veteran. He is 26 and drafted the same year as Dexter.


I have no idea what any of that has to do with anything.

The opening post is lauding Schoen building through the draft. And arguably the biggest move he made on the defensive side of the ball was trading a top 40 draft pick, to sign a player a from a different team to the 3rd highest defensive contract in league history.

I think it was a great move. I think a team needs to succeed at roster building with every tool at their disposal.
RE: ...  
gridirony : 6/9/2024 11:39 am : link
In comment 16533303 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16533301 TrueBlue56 said:


Quote:


I also don't how much the build through the draft purity test holds when the Giants traded the 39th pick and a 4/9.4M contract for the opportunity to sign a veteran player to a 5/141M contract.

And they traded Leonard Williams for a 2nd round pick. Plus it wasn't like Burns was some 30+ veteran. He is 26 and drafted the same year as Dexter.



I have no idea what any of that has to do with anything.

The opening post is lauding Schoen building through the draft. And arguably the biggest move he made on the defensive side of the ball was trading a top 40 draft pick, to sign a player a from a different team to the 3rd highest defensive contract in league history.

I think it was a great move. I think a team needs to succeed at roster building with every tool at their disposal.


If Schoen knows what he is doing, (which is highly questionable if 80M-2 year/160M-4 year Jones doesn't step up his game) then Burns contract will likely be restructured over the very long term.

The Giants just can't have Jones, Thomas, Dex and Burns eating up a huge portion of the cap. Between the four of them, they don't put a lot of points on the board.
 
christian : 6/9/2024 11:46 am : link
Lawrence and Thomas are on very good contracts. Relative to their output (assuming they play), they are great values.

Burns and Jones are the financial wildcards. If they underperform their value, the Giants will not contend for a championship.
This is year 7 of the rebuild  
Darwinian : 6/9/2024 11:47 am : link
We're not rebuilding the right way. Management has been an illogical disaster. And we still have a laughably bad player at QB.

But yea... it's the right way.
 
christian : 6/9/2024 11:59 am : link
Schoen has exhibited some good instincts. He's invested heavily in the pass rush and secondary on defense. On offense he's invested heavily in pass protection and the pass catching positions. Modern football is not a complicated game: throw the ball, stop the pas. Everything else is in service to that.
Not sure I follow  
UConn4523 : 6/9/2024 12:00 pm : link
how else do teams build if it’s not through the draft? Outside of outliers like the Rams, draft picks panning out pretty much determines success. Schoen isn’t doing anything 30 other teams aren’t trying to do.
RE: Not sure I follow  
christian : 6/9/2024 12:04 pm : link
In comment 16533330 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
how else do teams build if it’s not through the draft? Outside of outliers like the Rams, draft picks panning out pretty much determines success. Schoen isn’t doing anything 30 other teams aren’t trying to do.


Schoen has drafted players, signed free agents, and traded for players. A masterclass in building the right way.
RE: This is year 7 of the rebuild  
Mbavaro : 6/9/2024 12:12 pm : link
In comment 16533327 Darwinian said:
Quote:
We're not rebuilding the right way. Management has been an illogical disaster. And we still have a laughably bad player at QB.

But yea... it's the right way.


Daboll and Schoen have been here for 7 years?

Good to know Producer/Manhattan
I think any  
Lines of Scrimmage : 6/9/2024 12:20 pm : link
credible coach or anyone with even a basic understanding of football understands the game is a lot more than just passing the ball and stopping the pass. Running the ball and stopping run are critical aspects to a teams success. Even more so come the playoffs.
RE: I think any  
christian : 6/9/2024 12:34 pm : link
In comment 16533340 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
credible coach or anyone with even a basic understanding of football understands the game is a lot more than just passing the ball and stopping the pass. Running the ball and stopping run are critical aspects to a teams success. Even more so come the playoffs.


Running the ball and passing the ball is in service to the pass game. You know this.
RE: I think any  
ThomasG : 6/9/2024 12:58 pm : link
In comment 16533340 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
credible coach or anyone with even a basic understanding of football understands the game is a lot more than just passing the ball and stopping the pass. Running the ball and stopping run are critical aspects to a teams success. Even more so come the playoffs.


Yes. Which is why premium picks should be allocated to Guards, RBs, DTs and Middle LBs.

Basic stuff.
RE: RE: This is year 7 of the rebuild  
Gatorade Dunk : 6/9/2024 1:19 pm : link
In comment 16533338 Mbavaro said:
Quote:
In comment 16533327 Darwinian said:


Quote:


We're not rebuilding the right way. Management has been an illogical disaster. And we still have a laughably bad player at QB.

But yea... it's the right way.



Daboll and Schoen have been here for 7 years?

Good to know Producer/Manhattan

Finally, I figured it out - welcome back, Britt!
You can say every GM  
mittenedman : 6/9/2024 1:20 pm : link
does it this way, but they don’t. Look at the above distribution - he’s literally nailed allocation to all the important positions. These guys are the prototypes for their position too.

When he’s backed up the BRINKS truck, it’s been at QB and the trenches. He’s refused to pay Barkley & McK (2 popular players) not at premium positions.

There’s applied logic and you can see what he’s trying to do. I give him credit for that.
RE: This is year 7 of the rebuild  
JT039 : 6/9/2024 1:21 pm : link
In comment 16533327 Darwinian said:
Quote:
We're not rebuilding the right way. Management has been an illogical disaster. And we still have a laughably bad player at QB.

But yea... it's the right way.


We need a guy who is a known producer. I’m looking for someone in Manhattan.
...  
christian : 6/9/2024 1:21 pm : link
In comment 16533347 ThomasG said:
Quote:

Yes. Which is why premium picks should be allocated to Guards, RBs, DTs and Middle LBs.

Basic stuff.


I was particularly excited with that big contract gave Barkley.
RE: RE: This is year 7 of the rebuild  
Gatorade Dunk : 6/9/2024 1:23 pm : link
In comment 16533357 JT039 said:
Quote:
In comment 16533327 Darwinian said:


Quote:


We're not rebuilding the right way. Management has been an illogical disaster. And we still have a laughably bad player at QB.

But yea... it's the right way.



We need a guy who is a known producer. I’m looking for someone in Manhattan.

RE: You can say every GM  
christian : 6/9/2024 1:23 pm : link
In comment 16533355 mittenedman said:
Quote:
does it this way, but they don’t. Look at the above distribution - he’s literally nailed allocation to all the important positions. These guys are the prototypes for their position too.


No one is debating the allocation of resources. We're just getting a kick out of you connecting that to the draft, and a bunch of the players you called out he didn't draft.
A lot of you guys  
JT039 : 6/9/2024 1:29 pm : link
Would be a lot of fun at parties.
RE: A lot of you guys  
Gatorade Dunk : 6/9/2024 1:30 pm : link
In comment 16533367 JT039 said:
Quote:
Would be a lot of fun at parties.

And some of you guys have enough names to throw a party without a single invite.
RE: RE: A lot of you guys  
JT039 : 6/9/2024 1:33 pm : link
In comment 16533368 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 16533367 JT039 said:


Quote:


Would be a lot of fun at parties.


And some of you guys have enough names to throw a party without a single invite.


Referring to yourself? Nice.
RE: RE: A lot of you guys  
JT039 : 6/9/2024 1:34 pm : link
In comment 16533368 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 16533367 JT039 said:


Quote:


Would be a lot of fun at parties.


And some of you guys have enough names to throw a party without a single invite.


Or would your party consist of boggle and scrabble games? I am sure you throw kickin parties. Do you require everyone to bring their own dictionaries and thesaurus’s?
...  
christian : 6/9/2024 1:37 pm : link
In comment 16533357 JT039 said:
Quote:
We need a guy who is a known producer. I’m looking for someone in Manhattan.


Your crusade against other BBIers who've been banned and returned under new handles is one of the best subplots cooking on BBI these days. I commend you sir.
RE: ...  
JT039 : 6/9/2024 1:42 pm : link
In comment 16533380 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16533357 JT039 said:


Quote:


We need a guy who is a known producer. I’m looking for someone in Manhattan.



Your crusade against other BBIers who've been banned and returned under new handles is one of the best subplots cooking on BBI these days. I commend you sir.


I didnt call out any BBIers in that post. Just looking to upgrade the team. Lot of good athletes have come from the manhattan area.
Just for reference  
fanatic II : 6/9/2024 1:50 pm : link
On the presumed 53 man roster for Dallas they probably will have 8 players that have played for another organization.

QB Rush, 1 year with NYG
QB Lance, SF
RB Elliott, 1 year with NE
WR Cooks, various
LB Kendricks, Minnesota mainly
S Hooker, Indy
P Anger, LAR
LS Sieg, LV


This is probably not a fair comparison because Dallas probably has the most home grown talent of any roster in the NFL.
Looks like you aren't following the league  
Lines of Scrimmage : 6/9/2024 1:51 pm : link
to well Googs. The two teams who played in the NFCCG last season have 1st round RB's. Teams all over the league have made huge investments in the positions you listed. Many of them are consistent playoff teams and SB winners.

Way to be on top of things with the basics.


...  
christian : 6/9/2024 2:12 pm : link
My favorite Giants roster of all time -- the 2011 championship team. Highlighted in yellow are Giants draft picks in rounds one and two.

Great pass rush, great secondary, great pass game.

From a roster construction perspective, I see a little bit of resource allocation similarity.

RE: RE: RE: This is year 7 of the rebuild  
Mbavaro : 6/9/2024 2:13 pm : link
In comment 16533353 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 16533338 Mbavaro said:


Quote:


In comment 16533327 Darwinian said:


Quote:


We're not rebuilding the right way. Management has been an illogical disaster. And we still have a laughably bad player at QB.

But yea... it's the right way.



Daboll and Schoen have been here for 7 years?

Good to know Producer/Manhattan


Finally, I figured it out - welcome back, Britt!


Wrong again l

If you are so convinced that I am a dupe as you incorrectly obsess over

Why don’t you just ask Eric

Then you’ll realize whst a total horses ass you are

I’ll go beck to ignoring you as Eric requested

You should do the same
RE: ...  
JT039 : 6/9/2024 2:17 pm : link
In comment 16533412 christian said:
Quote:
My favorite Giants roster of all time -- the 2011 championship team. Highlighted in yellow are Giants draft picks in rounds one and two.

Great pass rush, great secondary, great pass game.

From a roster construction perspective, I see a little bit of resource allocation similarity.



The one thing Reese was a master at as a scout and initially as GM was not finding just contributors but really really good players late in the draft. A guy like Gibril Wilson while not a star - helped a lot. Bradshaw, Diehl, Jacobs, Jacquin Williams were all big parts of both SBs.

And of course he hit some major home runs in UDFA and free agency.

to many missing pieces  
DavidinBMNY : 6/9/2024 2:18 pm : link
While the process is sound, the results are elusive.

I'm not sure the Giants have enough talent to have 5 NFL starters. CB2 and RB2 are huge questions. QB is mediocre at best.

On top of that some of those really young draftees from year 1 and year 2 need to develop - fast.
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