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Somebody says " We have 11 million cap space next year"

Red Right Hand : 6/9/2024 6:46 pm
I'm thinking surely they mean this year since Waller retired. I go to OTC and check, and yep, we only are 11 mil under the cap for NEXT year. I'm thinking to myself "wasn't all this recent pain under Schoen because we've been dumping garbage contracts that DG made & freeing up some room to make some moves?" So I look some more, and come to see, as many years out as OTC goes ( up to 2027 projections, I think) we are, and will continue to be one of the most cash strapped teams for the next 4 years at least.

I Look at the dead money. No dead money.

Look at inactive money, little to none. we have more dollars going to actual people on payroll who are active with the team than almost any other team in the NFL. We have no spare dollars, and all the dollars we are spending are doing actual work.

Which leads me to this conclusion. What we have is what we have, more or less, for the foreseeable future. For purposes of this discussion we'll define "foreseeable future" as far as OTC covers, that seems reasonable to me.

That is to say, It seems Schoen has, in fact, already built his roster.He's signed everyone on the team, but for like 4-5 guys, they are his, and he has enough of them under contract that it's not likely you'll see moves as splashy as this year,as going forward we will continue to have less cap space than most of the rest of the league.

Here's the punchline. Won't it be funny when Neal leaves, not because he still sucks( he may) but because the money isn't there to pay him? There was no real rush to dump McKinney. except money, and we have downgraded a few positions over the last few years due to cash crush.

Let's hope the guys we aquired work out, because far as I can tell we married to a lot of them for awhile. If this roster changes drastially over the next few years, It will only be if Schoen isn't around and it's some other guys turn to bite the bullet. This is his roster, for the foreseeable future, that's what he built.
cap dollars are fugazi...  
bigbluewillrise : 6/9/2024 6:59 pm : link
always remember that.

daniel jones can be cut and it will create over 30+m of cap space, but then we need a QB.
Saints are like 80 million over the  
ZogZerg : 6/9/2024 7:06 pm : link
Don't worry about next year.
Take off  
Blue Dog : 6/9/2024 7:12 pm : link
Waller, Jones, and Eluemunor (structured like a one year deal).. poof $50M.
That was before Waller retired  
Chocco : 6/9/2024 7:12 pm : link
They'll probably be closer to 25.
OTC  
ElitoCanton : 6/9/2024 7:17 pm : link
has not updated at all as of yet.
this is their 4 year cap with waller retired  
Eric on Li : 6/9/2024 7:36 pm : link
cut or trade jones next year and you can add another $19m to 2025 (for $40m+) - and they don't have anyone from the 2021 daft to resign.



in 2024 either their 3 offseasons worth of moves will deliver or they wont, and if it's the latter there's a good chance there's someone new somewhere in that decision making hierarchy.
RE: cap dollars are fugazi...  
Darwinian : 6/9/2024 8:00 pm : link
In comment 16533564 bigbluewillrise said:
Quote:
always remember that.

daniel jones can be cut and it will create over 30+m of cap space, but then we need a QB.


We need a QB whether Jones is on the team or not.
.  
Go Terps : 6/9/2024 8:05 pm : link
 
christian : 6/9/2024 8:11 pm : link
This is the plan.

The line up is littered with guy making top 1/3 money at their positions or top 2 round picks.
RE: this is their 4 year cap with waller retired  
Blue Dog : 6/9/2024 8:19 pm : link
In comment 16533581 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
they don't have anyone from the 2021 daft to resign.


Wow is that painful. Amazingly, I could see Pinnock who was drafted that year, just not actually by the Giants, as someone who could get an extension. We'll see what the new staff thinks of Belton and Owens.
I think a very important question, which never seems to come up is  
Darwinian : 6/9/2024 8:20 pm : link
will the Giants be forced to restructure Daniel Jones' contract this season to create operational cap space for 2024? There might not be enough cap room plus other contracts to restructure, to have enough space to do all that needs to be do through the season.
Oh shit!  
knowledgetimmons : 6/9/2024 8:23 pm : link
We suck again! Just when I thought we were good! Thank god for Capilogists like OP
 
christian : 6/9/2024 8:24 pm : link
With Waller's retirement the Giants have operational space today.

The Giants can move nearly 40M on Lawrence, Thomas, Okereke, and Burns off of this year if they want.
RE: …  
Go Terps : 6/9/2024 8:31 pm : link
In comment 16533598 christian said:
Quote:
This is the plan.

The line up is littered with guy making top 1/3 money at their positions or top 2 round picks.


Exactly. This is the team they came here to build.

Expectations should be sky high.
...  
christian : 6/9/2024 8:42 pm : link
In comment 16533609 Go Terps said:
Quote:
This is the plan.

The line up is littered with guy making top 1/3 money at their positions or top 2 round picks.

Exactly. This is the team they came here to build.

Expectations should be sky high.


Look at this way. If Justin Herbert was the QB, the Giants would be a hands down Super Bowl favorite.

RE: …  
Darwinian : 6/9/2024 8:46 pm : link
In comment 16533605 christian said:
Quote:
With Waller's retirement the Giants have operational space today.

The Giants can move nearly 40M on Lawrence, Thomas, Okereke, and Burns off of this year if they want.


good to know!
RE: ...  
Go Terps : 6/9/2024 8:49 pm : link
In comment 16533617 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16533609 Go Terps said:


Quote:


This is the plan.

The line up is littered with guy making top 1/3 money at their positions or top 2 round picks.

Exactly. This is the team they came here to build.

Expectations should be sky high.



Look at this way. If Justin Herbert was the QB, the Giants would be a hands down Super Bowl favorite.


...  
christian : 6/9/2024 8:49 pm : link
In comment 16533620 Darwinian said:
Quote:
With Waller's retirement the Giants have operational space today.

The Giants can move nearly 40M on Lawrence, Thomas, Okereke, and Burns off of this year if they want.

good to know!


The scary part, which will be the subplot of the offseason if Jones escapes this year healthy -- Jones is cheaper next year.
RE: ...  
Thunderstruck27 : 6/9/2024 8:52 pm : link
In comment 16533617 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16533609 Go Terps said:


Quote:


This is the plan.

The line up is littered with guy making top 1/3 money at their positions or top 2 round picks.

Exactly. This is the team they came here to build.

Expectations should be sky high.



Look at this way. If Justin Herbert was the QB, the Giants would be a hands down Super Bowl favorite.


Lol I hope this is sarcasm
RE: Saints are like 80 million over the  
Red Right Hand : 6/9/2024 9:03 pm : link
In comment 16533567 ZogZerg said:I'm not worried about next year. I didn't say they were sccrewed, or anything like that. The point was, this is already the basic team we are going to have for a few years. If you think otherwise, that's cool, but it's nat what I see.
RE: this is their 4 year cap with waller retired  
Red Right Hand : 6/9/2024 9:05 pm : link
In comment 16533581 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
cut or trade jones next year and you can add another $19m to 2025 (for $40m+) - and they don't have anyone from the 2021 daft to resign.



in 2024 either their 3 offseasons worth of moves will deliver or they wont, and if it's the latter there's a good chance there's someone new somewhere in that decision making hierarchy.
Yeah, you can cut or trade jones, that's not the point. Sure, they can change QBs, and half expect them too. The rest is pretty much what it is. It was already a given waller is gone, and possibly jones. I doubt they cut elumanor.
RE: …  
Red Right Hand : 6/9/2024 9:06 pm : link
In comment 16533598 christian said:
Quote:
This is the plan.

The line up is littered with guy making top 1/3 money at their positions or top 2 round picks.
Thank you, someone gets it, it isn't a difficult concept.
RE: Oh shit!  
Red Right Hand : 6/9/2024 9:07 pm : link
In comment 16533603 knowledgetimmons said:
Quote:
We suck again! Just when I thought we were good! Thank god for Capilogists like OP
You're a fucking moron. Don't put words in my mouth asshole. No one said we were fucked but you.
RE: …  
Red Right Hand : 6/9/2024 9:09 pm : link
In comment 16533605 christian said:
Quote:
With Waller's retirement the Giants have operational space today.

The Giants can move nearly 40M on Lawrence, Thomas, Okereke, and Burns off of this year if they want.
So this isn't the team, it's gonna be drastically different and all those guys are gone. Got it. I think you are wrong, I think all those guys are gonna be part of this going forward.
RE: RE: …  
Darwinian : 6/9/2024 9:12 pm : link
In comment 16533654 Red Right Hand said:
Quote:
In comment 16533605 christian said:


Quote:


With Waller's retirement the Giants have operational space today.

The Giants can move nearly 40M on Lawrence, Thomas, Okereke, and Burns off of this year if they want.

So this isn't the team, it's gonna be drastically different and all those guys are gone. Got it. I think you are wrong, I think all those guys are gonna be part of this going forward.


He's not saying they will trade them, he is saying they can restructure their deals to clear operational cap space for this season.
 
christian : 6/9/2024 9:13 pm : link
You're misreading my post. I was responding to the question re: restructuring Jones.

The Giants have plenty of money to move around on Okereke, Burns, Thomas, and Lawrence because they have big salaries this year and plenty of years left to move that money.
 
christian : 6/9/2024 9:14 pm : link
Or what he said!
looking at projected starters....  
bigbluewillrise : 6/9/2024 9:14 pm : link
the only FA among projected starters is Pinnock and Slayton.

They have drafted Slaytons replacement in Hyatt already.

Nobody else is a FA after the season.

This assumes Flott/Phillips win their camp battles at CB2/CB3.
Roches/Davidson/Riley one of them win the jobs at DTs.

everyone else on the roster on offense and defense will be under contract.

Gillians would be a FA as well but hes a P and wont command top money at all for his position.

This is our team for the next 2-3 years for sure.

Pinnock is a guy imo i would offer a team friendly extension too maybe before camp/season starts.

This is a move id love to see Schoen make.
RE: RE: …  
Breeze_94 : 6/9/2024 9:56 pm : link
In comment 16533654 Red Right Hand said:
Quote:
In comment 16533605 christian said:


Quote:


With Waller's retirement the Giants have operational space today.

The Giants can move nearly 40M on Lawrence, Thomas, Okereke, and Burns off of this year if they want.

So this isn't the team, it's gonna be drastically different and all those guys are gone. Got it. I think you are wrong, I think all those guys are gonna be part of this going forward.


Those guys + Banks, KT, Nabers, JMS, Nubin, Wan’Dale, Hyatt…im not sure it’s such a bad thing?
RE: RE: Oh shit!  
knowledgetimmons : 6/9/2024 10:22 pm : link
In comment 16533652 Red Right Hand said:
Quote:
In comment 16533603 knowledgetimmons said:


Quote:


We suck again! Just when I thought we were good! Thank god for Capilogists like OP

You're a fucking moron. Don't put words in my mouth asshole. No one said we were fucked but you.


Hello? One of your points was not being able to pay Neal if he deserves it. Like…everyone should’ve stopped reading after that ludicrous statement. And I’m the moron? Save the cap threads for people smarter than us…ok?
RE: I think a very important question, which never seems to come up is  
mfjmfj : 6/9/2024 10:42 pm : link
In comment 16533601 Darwinian said:
Quote:
will the Giants be forced to restructure Daniel Jones' contract this season to create operational cap space for 2024? There might not be enough cap room plus other contracts to restructure, to have enough space to do all that needs to be do through the season.


It never comes up because it is not a meaningful question. Of course they won't be forced as they have plenty of space and plenty of other people to restructure - AT, DL, Okereke, Burns. But even if they do restructure DJ it means nothing other than they decided to spend more money this year. If they cut DJ and they need more money they just restructure someone else then.
In terms of cap space we are better off than the most teams.  
mfjmfj : 6/9/2024 10:53 pm : link
The graphic that matters is how much we have available in future years, and even that is not complete because it does not usually reflect void years completely.

We have plenty of money to spend. If we wanted to we could spend $100MM more this year and just push the money into future years. It is what the Eagles constantly do. The question is whether that is smart. For us, no way. For the Eagles, maybe, although I think the strategy gets Howie fired in the next 2 to 4 years if they don't win a SB.

Looking at how much cap space you have in a given year tells you almost nothing about a team's actual cap health, even though it is what commentators often focus on. What matters is how much you have spent but not recognized plus what you have committed to spend (i.e. guarantees). That tells you your actual cap space. The last element of judging cap health is whether the money being recognized is on players worth the freight. I.e. no Golladays. The Eagles cap situation is abysmal, but they have mostly paid good players so it has worked. If Hurts is not great or near great, they are in desperate trouble. Even if he is great they have serious cap structure problems in the 2- 4 year range. The Giants simply don't.
RE: RE: Saints are like 80 million over the  
ZogZerg : 6/10/2024 6:59 am : link
In comment 16533647 Red Right Hand said:
Quote:
In comment 16533567 ZogZerg said:I'm not worried about next year. I didn't say they were sccrewed, or anything like that. The point was, this is already the basic team we are going to have for a few years. If you think otherwise, that's cool, but it's nat what I see.


So you don't think Burns, Thomas, Okereke, and Lawrence are any good? They are top guys against the cap next year, other than Jones.
According to Spotrac  
Pete in MD : 6/10/2024 11:21 am : link
they will $35.5M in cap space in 2025.
Link - ( New Window )
The problem with the Spotrac estimates is that they  
cosmicj : 6/10/2024 12:53 pm : link
automatically count money against a cap year if it’s in a contract, when we all know management discretion will affect that number. I think there is room for a side gig for someone providing informed projections of who will be cut, signed and restructured in future years, with a forecast that is updated as the situation evolves. That would be a great resource to have.
RE: looking at projected starters....  
Red Right Hand : 6/10/2024 4:52 pm : link
In comment 16533665 bigbluewillrise said:
Quote:
the only FA among projected starters is Pinnock and Slayton.

They have drafted Slaytons replacement in Hyatt already.

Nobody else is a FA after the season.

This assumes Flott/Phillips win their camp battles at CB2/CB3.
Roches/Davidson/Riley one of them win the jobs at DTs.

everyone else on the roster on offense and defense will be under contract.

Gillians would be a FA as well but hes a P and wont command top money at all for his position.

This is our team for the next 2-3 years for sure.

Pinnock is a guy imo i would offer a team friendly extension too maybe before camp/season starts.

This is a move id love to see Schoen make.
Thank you. I means it's simple really. You always improve personell, plu holes, endures injuries followed by unwanted spending.

Those are peripheral, and not central to the point I was trying to make, that Scoen has mida got the framework of whats he's trying to do, and Daboll Kinda has his ooting under him>

The hand greanade in the room is Jones, and Schoen can pull the pin next year iff he wants and either free up 20 mil, draft a QB, or sign a vet. Hell, he could cut Jones and resign him for 27-30 mil. Fcat is, Jones with his warts and limitations, can still run the type off Offense both Scoen and Daboll are trying ti build. Do we Really think Daniel joins Balls are going to fail him? is that what we think?
It's Possible. I'm not so sure. Not a anboy, But I know what I've seen, and i he stays healthy Jones is adequate to compete.

Put it this way. If the Giants stay healthy, and are so going into week 1 healthy, do you want to be faccing them.
I'd bet they were a team playing well.

Jones is nothing special, he does have some physical and character traits. No one would argue he's an instinctual passer( in a good way) or an that he has exceptional perception either. If we're honest, he can run this offense ( not that that's high praise) and this team late in the yearif healthy could be scary. A DJ with 155 games healthy of not getting splatterred all year? I can see how that guy might perform considerably better his 3rd year in a system with a front that gave more time to compensate for his shortcomings, and he can be opportunistic. could be scary.

Eithewr way even if we move on, I still say he's gonna roll with whats he brought in, give it time to develop and see what he has. QB may change but we're going to look like this for a few years
RE: ...  
Red Right Hand : 6/10/2024 4:57 pm : link
In comment 16533625 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16533620 Darwinian said:


Quote:


With Waller's retirement the Giants have operational space today.

The Giants can move nearly 40M on Lawrence, Thomas, Okereke, and Burns off of this year if they want.

good to know!



The scary part, which will be the subplot of the offseason if Jones escapes this year healthy -- Jones is cheaper next year.
Uh huh. I'd pay Jones 27 mil a year, that's what he's worth, problrem is 27 mil a year isn't a QBs salary. they either make way more or way less. I'm fine paying a healthy jones 27 million until something better comes along or jones gets hot and his number goes up, either way I',m fine if he walks. Meanwhile pretending Lock or DeVito are answers just isn't be realisticc. Neither are as good as Jones.Who I could care less if he stays or goes, beause the rest o the team is largely gonna stay the same for awhile one way or the other.
RE: RE: RE: …  
Red Right Hand : 6/10/2024 5:09 pm : link
In comment 16533697 Breeze_94 said:
[quote] In comment 16533654 Red Right Hand said:


Quote:


In comment 16533605 christian said:


Quote:


With Waller's retirement the Giants have operational space today.

The Giants can move nearly 40M on Lawrence, Thomas, Okereke, and Burns off of this year if they want.

So this isn't the team, it's gonna be drastically different and all those guys are gone. Got it. I think you are wrong, I think all those guys are gonna be part of this going forward.



Those guys + Banks, KT, Nabers, JMS, Nubin, W You make my point. If he really wanted to Bring other guys in, he ould have. He hasn't, unles you count a new O line and recieving corps. Just like he ould have gottens a QB if he REALLY wanted, the way the Giantsa wanted Manning. He clearly didn't feel that way, and he can walk away from himnext year if he wants, or possibly force a pay cut? As pointed out, he has lattitude, but I still think the initial points are valid It's his guys that he picked, and he's got the ones he wants under contract. He's in a great position if his judgement pans out.To me Jones is a non-factors, because the assets he frees up dumping him will likely go towards a QB, ofr one or two high proffile pick ups, not more general purging and revamping a roster.
RE: In terms of cap space we are better off than the most teams.  
Red Right Hand : 6/10/2024 5:20 pm : link
In comment 16533732 mfjmfj said:
Quote:
The graphic that matters is how much we have available in future years, and even that is not complete because it does not usually reflect void years completely.

We have plenty of money to spend. If we wanted to we could spend $100MM more this year and just push the money into future years. It is what the Eagles constantly do. The question is whether that is smart. For us, no way. For the Eagles, maybe, although I think the strategy gets Howie fired in the next 2 to 4 years if they don't win a SB.

Looking at how much cap space you have in a given year tells you almost nothing about a team's actual cap health, even though it is what commentators often focus on. What matters is how much you have spent but not recognized plus what you have committed to spend (i.e. guarantees). That tells you your actual cap space. The last element of judging cap health is whether the money being recognized is on players worth the freight. I.e. no Golladays. The Eagles cap situation is abysmal, but they have mostly paid good players so it has worked. If Hurts is not great or near great, they are in desperate trouble. Even if he is great they have serious cap structure problems in the 2- 4 year range. The Giants simply don't.


Respectfully, sir, It wasn't my intent to talk about the cap. The underlying premise was simply this. The way in which Schoen has spent his money, and strutured it, tells me, he already has the core of the team he wants, and further has made sure HID guys, the ones that are his GUYS, are going to be here.Now if you find thast, after looking at the info I did, If you don't think that's thew case, then fine, but at that point it seems you are taking the position, functionally, that looking at spending patterns is useless, because you can say ANY team can come up with 100 mil if they really want to. Ultimately your saying spendind aps and how much was has already spent or not spent, there forever is a bottomless well that can always be drawn up, and I just thinks that is silly. saying a team at the bottom of the league ccan do what it wants year after year when our own eyes tell us they've already been constrained for years.Bottom line you an tell what management thinks of it's roster by how it spends and I think this roster is going to be WAY more stable over the next 3 years than it has the last 3.
 
christian : 6/10/2024 5:21 pm : link
Jones's new cash numbers after this year:

2025 - 30.5M
2026 - 47.5M

After 2024, he is on the one year at a time plan.

The projected non-exclusive franchise tender for next year is 42M for referenc. I think it will take a serious disaster for him to be cut after this year. Even if they draft a quarterback, 30.5M won't be bad bridge money.
RE: According to Spotrac  
Red Right Hand : 6/10/2024 5:24 pm : link
In comment 16533863 Pete in MD said:
Quote:
they will $35.5M in cap space in 2025. Link - ( New Window )
...And what place does that put them in? Is it not near the bottom of the league? and is it not the seme the year after that and the year after that??? Tell me yes or no. They are in the bottom 2 of available cap spacefor the next 4 years. You think that's because of mismanagemt? It's beccause he has the roster he wants. These guys are going to be here awhile. Maybe not Jones. Jones is not the roster at this point.
RE: …  
Red Right Hand : 6/10/2024 5:26 pm : link
In comment 16534151 christian said:
Quote:
Jones's new cash numbers after this year:

2025 - 30.5M
2026 - 47.5M

After 2024, he is on the one year at a time plan.

The projected non-exclusive franchise tender for next year is 42M for referenc. I think it will take a serious disaster for him to be cut after this year. Even if they draft a quarterback, 30.5M won't be bad bridge money.
Exactly. But I still don't think he spends it on a rebuild, rrather gets a QB and maybe one other Marquis player. It's a move he has in his poket whenever he wants it. I still think he's fixing to roll with what he has for the most part
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