Are the Giants finally nearing the opening of a winning window? The last big reset for the team was back in 2018 when we hired Gettleman. Remember when we decided to keep Eli and draft Barkley instead of taking a trade from Denver and planning for the future? We signed stopgaps like Solder, Omameh, Golden Tate, and Connor Barwin, traded JPP, and got Alec Ogletree instead of strengthening our edge. Oh, and we wasted a third-round pick on Sam Beal.
In 2018, our young core was basically just Beckham and Barkley. We had a few solid starters like Tomlinson and Shepard, but the rest were veterans on their last legs—Manning, Jenkins, Vernon, Snacks—and some busts who never developed with us but did elsewhere (Engram, Hernandez) or just plain busts (Flowers, Apple).
By 2019, Gettleman admitted his mistakes, but we still had no clear window. Our roster was still weak, though we did start getting some core players like Dexter Lawrence and Darius Slayton, with Jones maybe pulling a Phil Simms turnaround. The 2020 draft was a bright spot, bringing in guys like Thomas, Martinez, Bradberry, Logan Ryan, and McKinney when healthy. But the 2021 draft was a disaster, leaving us with just Azeez.
Heading into 2022, we finally started building young depth. Even with Neal looking like a bust, we got contributors like Kayvon, Flott, Bellinger, Wan'Dale, Belton, McFadden, and Davidson. Plus, we had in-season pickups like Hodgins, and in 2023, promising rookies like Banks, JMS, and Hyatt, and a great free agent linebacker in Okereke. We also found gems through unconventional routes like Pinnock, DeVito, and Isaiah Simmons.
Looking to 2024, with a stud pass rusher in Brian Burns and a strong draft class including Nabers and Nubin, we’re finally seeing a critical mass of depth. Compared to the mess from 2018-21, we now have core players like Thomas, Dexter, Burns, Nabers, Okereke, and Banks, with potential stars like Kayvon, Wan'Dale, Azeez, and Hyatt, plus solid starters like Runyan, JMS, Bellinger, Elumanor, Pinnock, McFadden, and Slayton.
The key positions—QB, Edge, WR, DT, Guard, CB, Safety, LB, TE, RB—are mostly solid. My main concerns are Neal at RT, Flott at RCB, and, of course, the big question mark at QB with Daniel Jones.
So, here’s the big difference between 2018 and 2024: Age, athleticism, and raw talent. Our roster’s average age is around 26, and all our starters (except our kicker) are under 27 and should be here for at least three more years.
On top of that, Dallas is showing signs of decline with aging players and big contracts coming up, and the Eagles can’t rely on their veterans much longer. Their key players are slowing down or retiring soon.
Even though our cap space seems tight, we’re in good shape. We’ve got many players signed at reasonable rates and can free up space with cuts and restructures. By this time next year, we should have CB2, RT, and DT2 figured out, leaving us with one of the youngest, most promising teams in the league, ready to break through.
The issue is the leash the franchise gives these QBs. This was a good year to draft QB because you can give him through 2025 to assess and either you hit or you re-enter the QB market in 2026.
Forcing the Jones pick wasn't the real problem. It was clear after 2020 and 2021 that he was a limited QB with not much upside. Not moving on from him then was the real mistake, not drafting him.
There is at least a potential football explanation for the #6 pick. The way they prioritize Daniel over everything is dysfunctional cultural rot.
I won't get into what the Giants did or not did not tell Lock, but there is no reason to ever say anyone is your absolute starter unless they have earned it. I don't think many would argue that Jones has shown enough to be the unquestioned starter on this team.
Competition is supposed to make players better. For some reason it seems competition at the QB position makes this franchise very uncomfortable. That seems to me to be another cultural mistake with the Giants.
Every other team just moves on from a pick like that after a few years. The Giants treat him like a franchise legend because he's polite and shows up for work on time.
“Daniel Jones is the starter on this team and that’s been conveyed to me,” Lock said"
The plan is to go into camp with Jones as the starter. There is no reason why that shouldn't be the case. Lock is still learning the offense and the team has held Jones out of the 11-11 (even though appearances are that he probably could handle it). So Lock is getting plenty of reps with the 1s.
The plan is to go into camp with Jones as the starter. There is no reason why that shouldn't be the case. Lock is still learning the offense and the team has held Jones out of the 11-11 (even though appearances are that he probably could handle it). So Lock is getting plenty of reps with the 1s.
I think it is a stretch to use the word "reach" in that context. The Giants picked at #6 and those other QB went #8, #10 and #12. To me a reach is taking a guy a round to early, not 2-6 spots ahead of where several other teams in the league pegged them.
Nobody suggested they should reach for a QB.
There is at least a potential football explanation for the #6 pick. The way they prioritize Daniel over everything is dysfunctional cultural rot.
Spot on here. And why not draft a QB in the later rounds?
Outside of Jones essentially pulling a sports miracle this year, there is no rightful scenario to keep his contract in 2025. He should be facing as much competition possible this year, which seems like they want no part of.
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It ultimately depends on whether prospects to the level of McCarthy, Penix & Nix are available. The Giants did not pass on Williams, Daniels or Maye to be fair.
If you listen to Sy, there probably won't be. If you assume the Giants are picking around #10 in the draft, they likely won't have access to the top two or possibly three prospects in the class. So, we're reenacting the 2024 draft with a lesser QB class.
And if that's the case, why draft one at all when we already have one under contract?
They chose Jones/Lock/DeVito. This is it. This is the plan.
So plans can't change? Giants chose Dave Brown too. Then they chose Kerry Collins. Then they said enough of that we can draft a better player
I know it warps the space time continuum in your world but the Giants must not have felt the earth move when they analyzed JJM and Penix and Nix. Not everything is permanent.
You're probably right with one caveat - I'm really frustrated whereas Eagle fans are laughing. They used to have to take the Giants seriously and now they don't really have to.
When the Giants stop being stupid I'll stop criticizing them for being stupid.
A plan that is outside your control needs to have a Plan B. I think what we are criticizing is the Plan B. They tried to get Maye and didn't. OK, what do you do now to improve the QB production? Get your subpar QB a top-flight receiver? Maybe that is Plan B.
Daboll is in a different position. He has to work with the player and *may* be understandably biased that he can make it work.
The GM has to be able to step in and push for an upgrade if necessary. Schoen believed Jones was a franchise quarterback, and did not believe McCarthy nor Nix were. He also believes Drew Lock is viable competition.
Schoen needs to be right, or it's more of the same.
Daboll is in a different position. He has to work with the player and *may* be understandably biased that he can make it work.
The GM has to be able to step in and push for an upgrade if necessary. Schoen believed Jones was a franchise quarterback, and did not believe McCarthy nor Nix were. He also believes Drew Lock is viable competition.
Schoen needs to be right, or it's more of the same.
I’m sure that Daboll is heavily involved in the QB decision making process and Schoen isn’t flying solo on this
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I don't see how you could possibly be a fan of this team. I really don't. There are many on the board who are pessimistic. But the difference is, all you do is take pop shots and insult. If we had a Philly fan on the site trolling, his posted would be indistinguishable from yours.
You're probably right with one caveat - I'm really frustrated whereas Eagle fans are laughing. They used to have to take the Giants seriously and now they don't really have to.
When the Giants stop being stupid I'll stop criticizing them for being stupid.
Stop listening to them.
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It appears a part of the Giants plan for the qb position was to trade up for a QB. That should be included in their 'plan'.
A plan that is outside your control needs to have a Plan B. I think what we are criticizing is the Plan B. They tried to get Maye and didn't. OK, what do you do now to improve the QB production? Get your subpar QB a top-flight receiver? Maybe that is Plan B.
Hi Mike, I agree with what you wrote. My post was for the fans that seem to leave out the attempted trade-up off of their list when evaluating the Giants off-season. I think it is important to note the attempted trade up for possibly Maye because it signals they are not sold on Jones.
As for plan-b, I still think it is good to consider that the Giants did not like the remaining qbs or perhaps did not like any offers they were getting to trade down for one of those qbs.
None of this is to say that it is not ok to question the Giants plan or evaluations.
Daboll is in a different position. He has to work with the player and *may* be understandably biased that he can make it work.
The GM has to be able to step in and push for an upgrade if necessary. Schoen believed Jones was a franchise quarterback, and did not believe McCarthy nor Nix were. He also believes Drew Lock is viable competition.
Schoen needs to be right, or it's more of the same.
I’m sure that Daboll is heavily involved in the QB decision making process and Schoen isn’t flying solo on this
You have some of the worst reading comprehension of any poster that's regularly contributed to this site in the 25 years I've been on BBI.
One of the insiders on BBI said that Schoen preferred taking the QB and Daboll wanted the WR a week or so before the draft. He added that BD understands he has to win this year. I think it is nonsense Jones is being forced on Daboll.
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My worry is Schoen's ability to scout the quarterback position.
Daboll is in a different position. He has to work with the player and *may* be understandably biased that he can make it work.
The GM has to be able to step in and push for an upgrade if necessary. Schoen believed Jones was a franchise quarterback, and did not believe McCarthy nor Nix were. He also believes Drew Lock is viable competition.
Schoen needs to be right, or it's more of the same.
I’m sure that Daboll is heavily involved in the QB decision making process and Schoen isn’t flying solo on this
You have some of the worst reading comprehension of any poster that's regularly contributed to this site in the 25 years I've been on BBI.
No need to be a jerk…why?
Yes…you alluded to Daboll working with the QB….but the the selection process Daboll is most certainly involved in that as well
Unless I read your post incorrectly…it seems like you were alluding JS having the sole say in the selection process
This might be one of those moments you tap in one of your associates with the big data experience. That elementary averages are vexing you explains basically all of it.
Every once in a while you almost get me pumpkin. But I'm on to you amigo. You big joker.
Daboll is in a different position. He has to work with the player and *may* be understandably biased that he can make it work.
The GM has to be able to step in and push for an upgrade if necessary. Schoen believed Jones was a franchise quarterback, and did not believe McCarthy nor Nix were. He also believes Drew Lock is viable competition.
Schoen needs to be right, or it's more of the same.
I’m sure that Daboll is heavily involved in the QB decision making process and Schoen isn’t flying solo on this
You have some of the worst reading comprehension of any poster that's regularly contributed to this site in the 25 years I've been on BBI.
No need to be a jerk…why?
Yes…you alluded to Daboll working with the QB….but the the selection process Daboll is most certainly involved in that as well
Unless I read your post incorrectly…it seems like you were alluding JS having the sole say in the selection process
At no point did I even close to intimate Schoen is choosing the quarterback alone.
My point is Daboll hypothetically making a mistake at an evaluation is more understandable because he has to believe every day the player can succeed.
The GM must be the more objective party, as he has more distance from the players as both players and people.
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My worry is Schoen's ability to scout the quarterback position.
Daboll is in a different position. He has to work with the player and *may* be understandably biased that he can make it work.
The GM has to be able to step in and push for an upgrade if necessary. Schoen believed Jones was a franchise quarterback, and did not believe McCarthy nor Nix were. He also believes Drew Lock is viable competition.
Schoen needs to be right, or it's more of the same.
I’m sure that Daboll is heavily involved in the QB decision making process and Schoen isn’t flying solo on this
You have some of the worst reading comprehension of any poster that's regularly contributed to this site in the 25 years I've been on BBI.
No need to be a jerk…why?
Yes…you alluded to Daboll working with the QB….but the the selection process Daboll is most certainly involved in that as well
Unless I read your post incorrectly…it seems like you were alluding JS having the sole say in the selection process
At no point did I even close to intimate Schoen is choosing the quarterback alone.
My point is Daboll hypothetically making a mistake at an evaluation is more understandable because he has to believe every day the player can succeed.
The GM must be the more objective party, as he has more distance from the players as both players and people.
That is a fair analysis and I agree with your assessment and I was referring to it being a 50/50 deal between the both of them
"A conference champion QB is a 4K/30TD producer in this era."
Christine, you are great with data entry though!
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It appears a part of the Giants plan for the qb position was to trade up for a QB. That should be included in their 'plan'.
A plan that is outside your control needs to have a Plan B. I think what we are criticizing is the Plan B. They tried to get Maye and didn't. OK, what do you do now to improve the QB production? Get your subpar QB a top-flight receiver? Maybe that is Plan B.
Here's how I see it:
They obviously weighted QB favorably on their board. How do we know this? Because by all accounts Nabers is among the top couple of players in this draft, position aside. Given that and flaws that Maye has, it’s fair to say that without factoring in position, whatever grade they had on Nabers is likely AT LEAST as high as Maye (It very likely could have been higher as most would have had). So the fact that they offered two 1s and a 2 to try to move up for Maye, opposed to a player like Nabers --clearly the reason is the boost Maye got for being QB.
So now given that we know they had prioritized the QB position on their draft board, the fact that there were other QBs there for the taking when they picked at 6 tells you all you need to know about their evaluations on them. They weighted QBs favorably but clearly they weren’t going to draft a QB just to draft a QB.
So plan B was what it was based on the options and their assessments of the prospects. They can’t make a QB who has a grade to justify the pick simply appear.
Whether or not the other QBs prove to be franchise QBs or not remains to be seen. We can only speculate on that at this point. But at the end of the day, you're stuck with what the draft makes available to you.
Yes, the average conference champion in the post Ty Law rules era (minus Foles as the extreme outlier) has averaged 4k/30TDs.
See, not too hard. I think your big data associates would be proud.
We can argue all day about what the Giants' plan was, but your argument begins with a premise with absolutely no basis - that Nabers was rated higher than Maye by the Giants.
It's a reasonable assumption based on the overwhelming consensus and the tape the two put on film. If your point is that, positional value aside, they graded Maye higher than Nabers as a prospect independent of position, that is fine. But it would be contradictory to almost all evaluations I've seen.
But at some point teams have to take the "risk" and go QB. Was this the right time to do it? I think so, but I could definitely be wrong about that.
I think the reaction is more about the past and future QB strategy than the #6 pick in particular. There hasn't been any competition for Daniel in the past. And if Daniel clears a very low bar in 2024, there is going to be a lot of momentum for Year 7 of this misery.
The #6 pick is very important. I get taking Nabers. The frustration, at least for me, is that the #6 pick is a significant symptom of the ineffective way that the Giants operate.
And really, it means one more guaranteed year of watching Jones and possibly more. People will react to that. It's just so painful to watch. And we just don't know when we're going to be free of him and have a chance to be good again.
Two, so much of the debate here focuses on the past, but in many ways it really doesn't matter what Jones did or did not do in the past. What matters do the Giants, who work with the guy every day, think that he has the tools to do what they want a QB to do in their system. Appears they do! In that context, I also suspect very much that this year's decision would have been very much Daboll's. Did he want to start over with a new QB or go forward and continue to try and build around Jones and it appears he chose the latter.
Will it work. Who knows. If it doesn't they move on. In fact next year it appears there may be a number of reasonably attractive veteran options that may be available either in free agency or via a trade. At the same time, even if the Giants don't end up with all that good a pick at the 2025 draft and that next year's QB isn't quite as strong as this year's, there also likely won't be as many teams at the top of the board looking for a QB so it may very well be easier to move up if that is what is needed.
Meanwhile, I say again, why don't we just play out this season and see how it goes.
Not only did they not draft a QB in 2024; they have not drafted a QB anywhere in the 2022-2024 drafts. They have approached the position like they were set at all three spots on the depth chart despite inheriting (and maintaining over two seasons) one of the least productive QB rooms in the NFL.
This can't be said forcefully enough: Daniel Jones has been one of the least productive starting QBs in the NFL for five seasons and the Giants have drafted zero QBs since they picked him. This is irregular, unusual behavior: unproductive players are usually challenged if not replaced outright.
It begs the question: what has to happen for the Giants to draft a quarterback? To me it looks like:
1. There must be quarterback whose grade equals or exceeds the blue chip prospects at the high value (LT, WR, EDGE, CB) positions; AND
2. The Giants must be picking high enough to be able to draft this player
If those are the requirements (and I'm not even considering owner preferences on wanting their QB to be an Eli clone), then it could be a decade or longer before the conditions are right for them to finally take the plunge. And then once they finally do it appears they will give the draft pick 5+ years even if he doesn't perform well.
Meanwhile, I say again, why don't we just play out this season and see how it goes.
No. We have been hearing that garbage for years. I remember people saying "let this play out" in 2019. Enough.
Two, so much of the debate here focuses on the past, but in many ways it really doesn't matter what Jones did or did not do in the past. What matters do the Giants, who work with the guy every day, think that he has the tools to do what they want a QB to do in their system. Appears they do! In that context, I also suspect very much that this year's decision would have been very much Daboll's. Did he want to start over with a new QB or go forward and continue to try and build around Jones and it appears he chose the latter.
Will it work. Who knows. If it doesn't they move on. In fact next year it appears there may be a number of reasonably attractive veteran options that may be available either in free agency or via a trade. At the same time, even if the Giants don't end up with all that good a pick at the 2025 draft and that next year's QB isn't quite as strong as this year's, there also likely won't be as many teams at the top of the board looking for a QB so it may very well be easier to move up if that is what is needed.
Meanwhile, I say again, why don't we just play out this season and see how it goes.
If it doesn't work out they will be moving on from more than just Jones.
The Giants' approach, given their situation and the rules of the sport, simply does not make sense. They are not being logical actors here.
The Giants' approach, given their situation and the rules of the sport, simply does not make sense. They are not being logical actors here.
Patriots took Maye and Joe Milton, too. We should have done... something.
I beg of you to please answer me, it's killing me.
When you say we should let it play out, what does that mean to you? Does that mean we should stop discussing the team? Does that mean you think that when we discuss the team this is not letting it play out?
I'm genuinely curious.
The Giants' approach, given their situation and the rules of the sport, simply does not make sense. They are not being logical actors here.
I agree. Negligent is the word I use.
The Giants' approach, given their situation and the rules of the sport, simply does not make sense. They are not being logical actors here.
slight push back on this - Lock was more of a dart throw than carrying tIRod for 2 years, and unless im forgetting someone Devito probably has shown more than any other non-first round qb in the last few years other than purdy (which is probably more than a dozen guys?). they have 3 qbs who are just a few years older than the super seniors in the '24 draft, and all 3 of them have had their moments in the nfl.
JJM is the only prospect they passed on that i have any regrets about.
regardless of qb/injuries i think the overall roster should be past the tipping point of being a 'good' roster barring some kind of really bad injury luck. WR and front 7 in particular should be very good. per dollar there may not be a better WR room and while the DL is expensive, im not sure any team has 3 id trade burns/dex/thibs for.
in there. All of them are 25-32 in the NFL.
Nabers gets me excited.......the QB room not so much.
Doesn't matter how firm, or slippery, his grip on the job is. PR 101 says avoid QB controversy, so everything coming out of the Giants will tell us there is no controversy.
For all we know, Lock has been told he's in the running if Jones falters, but keep that info to himself.
Jones should be penciled in as the starter. And the public stance from the Giants should be that his starting role is not in jeopardy.
Moving to running with the big dogs at the top of the pack requires a QB.
Obviously, they didn't think JJM, Nix, or Penix were QBs that would get them running with the big dogs and that Nabers was too good to pass up for any of them. Some of you twist this simple concept into a statement of devotion to Jones.