Are the Giants finally nearing the opening of a winning window? The last big reset for the team was back in 2018 when we hired Gettleman. Remember when we decided to keep Eli and draft Barkley instead of taking a trade from Denver and planning for the future? We signed stopgaps like Solder, Omameh, Golden Tate, and Connor Barwin, traded JPP, and got Alec Ogletree instead of strengthening our edge. Oh, and we wasted a third-round pick on Sam Beal.
In 2018, our young core was basically just Beckham and Barkley. We had a few solid starters like Tomlinson and Shepard, but the rest were veterans on their last legs—Manning, Jenkins, Vernon, Snacks—and some busts who never developed with us but did elsewhere (Engram, Hernandez) or just plain busts (Flowers, Apple).
By 2019, Gettleman admitted his mistakes, but we still had no clear window. Our roster was still weak, though we did start getting some core players like Dexter Lawrence and Darius Slayton, with Jones maybe pulling a Phil Simms turnaround. The 2020 draft was a bright spot, bringing in guys like Thomas, Martinez, Bradberry, Logan Ryan, and McKinney when healthy. But the 2021 draft was a disaster, leaving us with just Azeez.
Heading into 2022, we finally started building young depth. Even with Neal looking like a bust, we got contributors like Kayvon, Flott, Bellinger, Wan'Dale, Belton, McFadden, and Davidson. Plus, we had in-season pickups like Hodgins, and in 2023, promising rookies like Banks, JMS, and Hyatt, and a great free agent linebacker in Okereke. We also found gems through unconventional routes like Pinnock, DeVito, and Isaiah Simmons.
Looking to 2024, with a stud pass rusher in Brian Burns and a strong draft class including Nabers and Nubin, we’re finally seeing a critical mass of depth. Compared to the mess from 2018-21, we now have core players like Thomas, Dexter, Burns, Nabers, Okereke, and Banks, with potential stars like Kayvon, Wan'Dale, Azeez, and Hyatt, plus solid starters like Runyan, JMS, Bellinger, Elumanor, Pinnock, McFadden, and Slayton.
The key positions—QB, Edge, WR, DT, Guard, CB, Safety, LB, TE, RB—are mostly solid. My main concerns are Neal at RT, Flott at RCB, and, of course, the big question mark at QB with Daniel Jones.
So, here’s the big difference between 2018 and 2024: Age, athleticism, and raw talent. Our roster’s average age is around 26, and all our starters (except our kicker) are under 27 and should be here for at least three more years.
On top of that, Dallas is showing signs of decline with aging players and big contracts coming up, and the Eagles can’t rely on their veterans much longer. Their key players are slowing down or retiring soon.
Even though our cap space seems tight, we’re in good shape. We’ve got many players signed at reasonable rates and can free up space with cuts and restructures. By this time next year, we should have CB2, RT, and DT2 figured out, leaving us with one of the youngest, most promising teams in the league, ready to break through.
Am I wrong in recalling Maye was right up there with Williams beginning the college season? Most draft pundits had Maye up there ahead of McCarthy/Penix/Nix. Maye did go number 3 after all with only Daniels surpassing him during the season. Some did not like Maye (Sy, Chris Simms, Hoge). A lot did like Maye though including Jeremiah.
I don't think it's fair to just say the Giants liked Maye because of an Eli connection. I'd say Maye was viewed as a superior QB prospect to the guys drafted after him by most. Sy compared Nix to Daniel Jones. This isn't a perfect science.
Are guys like Penix, Nix or McCarthy regularly available in any draft? That's the ultimate question and what Schoen is betting on.
It always amuses me how some fans hold out eternal hope for Jones while having zero faith in Neal. who was a dominant player in college who has faced injuries and only played 2 seasons. Why does Jones get every excuse in the book and Neal gets none? I personally have more hope for Neal than Jones.
I also don't agree with the fans kicking dirt on Philly and Dallas. For all the shit Dak receives, he still throws for 35 TDs and 4K yards. Those are double the stats Jones puts up.
How do you know their evaluations on the QB’s were wrong or who is a better prospect
Message board credentials don’t qualify
You don’t know and neither do I
This is a ridiculous statement.
You make a declaration that "Maye was not a clearly better prospect than those other three" which is simply your opinion. And since the Giants didn't agree with your personal evaluation of the 2023 QB class, you then conclude that they must have an "evaluation issue" when it comes to QBs.
Many draft experts, as well as a number of teams, obviously felt that Maye WAS in fact, a clearly better prospect than QBs 3-4.
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The approach to QB in this draft was alarming. That they were willing to trade up for Maye but not draft one of the other three at #6 smacked of a laser focus on one guy for nebulous reasons. Maye was not a clearly better prospect than those other three, if he was at all. So either there's an evaluation issue or there's something else. "Drake Maye Soaking Up Knowledge From Eli Manning" - ( New Window )
How do you know their evaluations on the QB’s were wrong or who is a better prospect
Message board credentials don’t qualify
You don’t know and neither do I
I know the Giants have been getting it wrong for a decade.
The Giants have played 179 regular season games over the last 11 seasons. Over that period they've scored 3,529 points...an average of 19.7 PPG.
Yeah I'm just a guy in a message board, but I don't think you have to be Paul Brown to know something is broken.
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In comment 16534551 Go Terps said:
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The approach to QB in this draft was alarming. That they were willing to trade up for Maye but not draft one of the other three at #6 smacked of a laser focus on one guy for nebulous reasons. Maye was not a clearly better prospect than those other three, if he was at all. So either there's an evaluation issue or there's something else. "Drake Maye Soaking Up Knowledge From Eli Manning" - ( New Window )
How do you know their evaluations on the QB’s were wrong or who is a better prospect
Message board credentials don’t qualify
You don’t know and neither do I
I know the Giants have been getting it wrong for a decade.
The Giants have played 179 regular season games over the last 11 seasons. Over that period they've scored 3,529 points...an average of 19.7 PPG.
Yeah I'm just a guy in a message board, but I don't think you have to be Paul Brown to know something is broken.
And the majority of those years were not with the current scouts, GM and coaches
Try again as you know just about as much as anyone here which is nothing
From all accounts they loved 3 QBs in this draft. Williams, Daniels and Maye. But you're conjuring up negligence or "something else" (just come out and say it, it was MARA) all because the Giants didn't like 1-2 additional QBs enough to bypass the HOF potential WR prospect, Nabers.
Maybe they just liked Nabers more than they liked JJM or Penix. Maybe they thought those guys weren't the needle movers that Nabers is.
Can't be that. Has to be so much more ridiculous.
I remember when Saquon Barkley was a HOF weapon that made a big difference. That was fun.
Nabers is going to have a hard time making the Pro Bowl, let alone the HOF, the way this organization approaches the QB position.
I remember when Saquon Barkley was a HOF weapon that made a big difference. That was fun.
Nabers is going to have a hard time making the Pro Bowl, let alone the HOF, the way this organization approaches the QB position.
Are you telling me that Nabers might not be touched by the hand of God?
For the record, I do think Nabers will be excellent, but he can't throw to himself.
I don't believe next year's draft will have as many highly touted prospects at QB that this year did. It might, but I don't think that is a consensus view this early. I think the strategy of getting the QB, letting him learn/improve for a year and then give him a weapon like Nabers is more easy to do than to get Nabers, and then find a QB who can instantly help him reach his potential. I think the mistake they made with the Jones contract is forcing them into other team building mistakes, instead of admitting the mistake and starting over.
I don't believe next year's draft will have as many highly touted prospects at QB that this year did. It might, but I don't think that is a consensus view this early. I think the strategy of getting the QB, letting him learn/improve for a year and then give him a weapon like Nabers is more easy to do than to get Nabers, and then find a QB who can instantly help him reach his potential. I think the mistake they made with the Jones contract is forcing them into other team building mistakes, instead of admitting the mistake and starting over.
It ultimately depends on whether prospects to the level of McCarthy, Penix & Nix are available. The Giants did not pass on Williams, Daniels or Maye to be fair.
It ultimately depends on whether prospects to the level of McCarthy, Penix & Nix are available. The Giants did not pass on Williams, Daniels or Maye to be fair.
If you listen to Sy, there probably won't be. If you assume the Giants are picking around #10 in the draft, they likely won't have access to the top two or possibly three prospects in the class. So, we're reenacting the 2024 draft with a lesser QB class.
And if that's the case, why draft one at all when we already have one under contract?
They chose Jones/Lock/DeVito. This is it. This is the plan.
The second set of data is minus Foles because of how little he played in the regular season. A conference champion QB is a 4K/30TD producer in this era.
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Is the fact that there will almost certainly be a WR or two in next year's draft that will be similar in potential to Nabers. It is a position that colleges are churning out like an assembly line.
I don't believe next year's draft will have as many highly touted prospects at QB that this year did. It might, but I don't think that is a consensus view this early. I think the strategy of getting the QB, letting him learn/improve for a year and then give him a weapon like Nabers is more easy to do than to get Nabers, and then find a QB who can instantly help him reach his potential. I think the mistake they made with the Jones contract is forcing them into other team building mistakes, instead of admitting the mistake and starting over.
It ultimately depends on whether prospects to the level of McCarthy, Penix & Nix are available. The Giants did not pass on Williams, Daniels or Maye to be fair.
Right, but that is likely going to be true almost every year. Does anyone think the Giants are a legit 2-3 win team this year? If no, they are likely not getting the top 1 or 2 prospects. At what point do you conclude that maybe you can win with #3, #4 or #5?
You can't say "we need to draft a franchise QB, but we can't force the pick" unless you are willing to wait an indefinite amount of years for the stars to align.
The issue is the leash the franchise gives these QBs. This was a good year to draft QB because you can give him through 2025 to assess and either you hit or you re-enter the QB market in 2026.
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In comment 16534621 Mike from Ohio said:
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Is the fact that there will almost certainly be a WR or two in next year's draft that will be similar in potential to Nabers. It is a position that colleges are churning out like an assembly line.
I don't believe next year's draft will have as many highly touted prospects at QB that this year did. It might, but I don't think that is a consensus view this early. I think the strategy of getting the QB, letting him learn/improve for a year and then give him a weapon like Nabers is more easy to do than to get Nabers, and then find a QB who can instantly help him reach his potential. I think the mistake they made with the Jones contract is forcing them into other team building mistakes, instead of admitting the mistake and starting over.
It ultimately depends on whether prospects to the level of McCarthy, Penix & Nix are available. The Giants did not pass on Williams, Daniels or Maye to be fair.
Right, but that is likely going to be true almost every year. Does anyone think the Giants are a legit 2-3 win team this year? If no, they are likely not getting the top 1 or 2 prospects. At what point do you conclude that maybe you can win with #3, #4 or #5?
You can't say "we need to draft a franchise QB, but we can't force the pick" unless you are willing to wait an indefinite amount of years for the stars to align.
And as soon as you are bad enough to satisfy the necessary celestial alignment, those same "we can't force the pick" fans (and execs) will be claiming, "with a roster this bad, it would be useless to add a rookie QB with no help!"
I think the idea of upgrade vs. solve is a very salient point and absolutely gets to the crux of the Giants' QB approach (or lack thereof).
There is at least a potential football explanation for the #6 pick. The way they prioritize Daniel over everything is dysfunctional cultural rot.
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It ultimately depends on whether prospects to the level of McCarthy, Penix & Nix are available. The Giants did not pass on Williams, Daniels or Maye to be fair.
If you listen to Sy, there probably won't be. If you assume the Giants are picking around #10 in the draft, they likely won't have access to the top two or possibly three prospects in the class. So, we're reenacting the 2024 draft with a lesser QB class.
And if that's the case, why draft one at all when we already have one under contract?
They chose Jones/Lock/DeVito. This is it. This is the plan.
More accurately, they chose Nabers/Jones/Lock over McCarthy/Jones/Lock. And I'm not a Jones defender, but if the Giants assess that McCarthy doesn't project to be that much better than Jones (which is how I view him) then it was an easy decision to make.
The issue is the leash the franchise gives these QBs. This was a good year to draft QB because you can give him through 2025 to assess and either you hit or you re-enter the QB market in 2026.
Forcing the Jones pick wasn't the real problem. It was clear after 2020 and 2021 that he was a limited QB with not much upside. Not moving on from him then was the real mistake, not drafting him.
There is at least a potential football explanation for the #6 pick. The way they prioritize Daniel over everything is dysfunctional cultural rot.
I won't get into what the Giants did or not did not tell Lock, but there is no reason to ever say anyone is your absolute starter unless they have earned it. I don't think many would argue that Jones has shown enough to be the unquestioned starter on this team.
Competition is supposed to make players better. For some reason it seems competition at the QB position makes this franchise very uncomfortable. That seems to me to be another cultural mistake with the Giants.
Every other team just moves on from a pick like that after a few years. The Giants treat him like a franchise legend because he's polite and shows up for work on time.
“Daniel Jones is the starter on this team and that’s been conveyed to me,” Lock said"
The plan is to go into camp with Jones as the starter. There is no reason why that shouldn't be the case. Lock is still learning the offense and the team has held Jones out of the 11-11 (even though appearances are that he probably could handle it). So Lock is getting plenty of reps with the 1s.
The plan is to go into camp with Jones as the starter. There is no reason why that shouldn't be the case. Lock is still learning the offense and the team has held Jones out of the 11-11 (even though appearances are that he probably could handle it). So Lock is getting plenty of reps with the 1s.
I think it is a stretch to use the word "reach" in that context. The Giants picked at #6 and those other QB went #8, #10 and #12. To me a reach is taking a guy a round to early, not 2-6 spots ahead of where several other teams in the league pegged them.
Nobody suggested they should reach for a QB.
There is at least a potential football explanation for the #6 pick. The way they prioritize Daniel over everything is dysfunctional cultural rot.
Spot on here. And why not draft a QB in the later rounds?
Outside of Jones essentially pulling a sports miracle this year, there is no rightful scenario to keep his contract in 2025. He should be facing as much competition possible this year, which seems like they want no part of.
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It ultimately depends on whether prospects to the level of McCarthy, Penix & Nix are available. The Giants did not pass on Williams, Daniels or Maye to be fair.
If you listen to Sy, there probably won't be. If you assume the Giants are picking around #10 in the draft, they likely won't have access to the top two or possibly three prospects in the class. So, we're reenacting the 2024 draft with a lesser QB class.
And if that's the case, why draft one at all when we already have one under contract?
They chose Jones/Lock/DeVito. This is it. This is the plan.
So plans can't change? Giants chose Dave Brown too. Then they chose Kerry Collins. Then they said enough of that we can draft a better player
I know it warps the space time continuum in your world but the Giants must not have felt the earth move when they analyzed JJM and Penix and Nix. Not everything is permanent.
You're probably right with one caveat - I'm really frustrated whereas Eagle fans are laughing. They used to have to take the Giants seriously and now they don't really have to.
When the Giants stop being stupid I'll stop criticizing them for being stupid.
A plan that is outside your control needs to have a Plan B. I think what we are criticizing is the Plan B. They tried to get Maye and didn't. OK, what do you do now to improve the QB production? Get your subpar QB a top-flight receiver? Maybe that is Plan B.
Daboll is in a different position. He has to work with the player and *may* be understandably biased that he can make it work.
The GM has to be able to step in and push for an upgrade if necessary. Schoen believed Jones was a franchise quarterback, and did not believe McCarthy nor Nix were. He also believes Drew Lock is viable competition.
Schoen needs to be right, or it's more of the same.
Daboll is in a different position. He has to work with the player and *may* be understandably biased that he can make it work.
The GM has to be able to step in and push for an upgrade if necessary. Schoen believed Jones was a franchise quarterback, and did not believe McCarthy nor Nix were. He also believes Drew Lock is viable competition.
Schoen needs to be right, or it's more of the same.
I’m sure that Daboll is heavily involved in the QB decision making process and Schoen isn’t flying solo on this
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I don't see how you could possibly be a fan of this team. I really don't. There are many on the board who are pessimistic. But the difference is, all you do is take pop shots and insult. If we had a Philly fan on the site trolling, his posted would be indistinguishable from yours.
You're probably right with one caveat - I'm really frustrated whereas Eagle fans are laughing. They used to have to take the Giants seriously and now they don't really have to.
When the Giants stop being stupid I'll stop criticizing them for being stupid.
Stop listening to them.
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It appears a part of the Giants plan for the qb position was to trade up for a QB. That should be included in their 'plan'.
A plan that is outside your control needs to have a Plan B. I think what we are criticizing is the Plan B. They tried to get Maye and didn't. OK, what do you do now to improve the QB production? Get your subpar QB a top-flight receiver? Maybe that is Plan B.
Hi Mike, I agree with what you wrote. My post was for the fans that seem to leave out the attempted trade-up off of their list when evaluating the Giants off-season. I think it is important to note the attempted trade up for possibly Maye because it signals they are not sold on Jones.
As for plan-b, I still think it is good to consider that the Giants did not like the remaining qbs or perhaps did not like any offers they were getting to trade down for one of those qbs.
None of this is to say that it is not ok to question the Giants plan or evaluations.
Daboll is in a different position. He has to work with the player and *may* be understandably biased that he can make it work.
The GM has to be able to step in and push for an upgrade if necessary. Schoen believed Jones was a franchise quarterback, and did not believe McCarthy nor Nix were. He also believes Drew Lock is viable competition.
Schoen needs to be right, or it's more of the same.
I’m sure that Daboll is heavily involved in the QB decision making process and Schoen isn’t flying solo on this
You have some of the worst reading comprehension of any poster that's regularly contributed to this site in the 25 years I've been on BBI.
One of the insiders on BBI said that Schoen preferred taking the QB and Daboll wanted the WR a week or so before the draft. He added that BD understands he has to win this year. I think it is nonsense Jones is being forced on Daboll.
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My worry is Schoen's ability to scout the quarterback position.
Daboll is in a different position. He has to work with the player and *may* be understandably biased that he can make it work.
The GM has to be able to step in and push for an upgrade if necessary. Schoen believed Jones was a franchise quarterback, and did not believe McCarthy nor Nix were. He also believes Drew Lock is viable competition.
Schoen needs to be right, or it's more of the same.
I’m sure that Daboll is heavily involved in the QB decision making process and Schoen isn’t flying solo on this
You have some of the worst reading comprehension of any poster that's regularly contributed to this site in the 25 years I've been on BBI.
No need to be a jerk…why?
Yes…you alluded to Daboll working with the QB….but the the selection process Daboll is most certainly involved in that as well
Unless I read your post incorrectly…it seems like you were alluding JS having the sole say in the selection process
This might be one of those moments you tap in one of your associates with the big data experience. That elementary averages are vexing you explains basically all of it.
Every once in a while you almost get me pumpkin. But I'm on to you amigo. You big joker.
Daboll is in a different position. He has to work with the player and *may* be understandably biased that he can make it work.
The GM has to be able to step in and push for an upgrade if necessary. Schoen believed Jones was a franchise quarterback, and did not believe McCarthy nor Nix were. He also believes Drew Lock is viable competition.
Schoen needs to be right, or it's more of the same.
I’m sure that Daboll is heavily involved in the QB decision making process and Schoen isn’t flying solo on this
You have some of the worst reading comprehension of any poster that's regularly contributed to this site in the 25 years I've been on BBI.
No need to be a jerk…why?
Yes…you alluded to Daboll working with the QB….but the the selection process Daboll is most certainly involved in that as well
Unless I read your post incorrectly…it seems like you were alluding JS having the sole say in the selection process
At no point did I even close to intimate Schoen is choosing the quarterback alone.
My point is Daboll hypothetically making a mistake at an evaluation is more understandable because he has to believe every day the player can succeed.
The GM must be the more objective party, as he has more distance from the players as both players and people.
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My worry is Schoen's ability to scout the quarterback position.
Daboll is in a different position. He has to work with the player and *may* be understandably biased that he can make it work.
The GM has to be able to step in and push for an upgrade if necessary. Schoen believed Jones was a franchise quarterback, and did not believe McCarthy nor Nix were. He also believes Drew Lock is viable competition.
Schoen needs to be right, or it's more of the same.
I’m sure that Daboll is heavily involved in the QB decision making process and Schoen isn’t flying solo on this
You have some of the worst reading comprehension of any poster that's regularly contributed to this site in the 25 years I've been on BBI.
No need to be a jerk…why?
Yes…you alluded to Daboll working with the QB….but the the selection process Daboll is most certainly involved in that as well
Unless I read your post incorrectly…it seems like you were alluding JS having the sole say in the selection process
At no point did I even close to intimate Schoen is choosing the quarterback alone.
My point is Daboll hypothetically making a mistake at an evaluation is more understandable because he has to believe every day the player can succeed.
The GM must be the more objective party, as he has more distance from the players as both players and people.
That is a fair analysis and I agree with your assessment and I was referring to it being a 50/50 deal between the both of them
"A conference champion QB is a 4K/30TD producer in this era."
Christine, you are great with data entry though!
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It appears a part of the Giants plan for the qb position was to trade up for a QB. That should be included in their 'plan'.
A plan that is outside your control needs to have a Plan B. I think what we are criticizing is the Plan B. They tried to get Maye and didn't. OK, what do you do now to improve the QB production? Get your subpar QB a top-flight receiver? Maybe that is Plan B.
Here's how I see it:
They obviously weighted QB favorably on their board. How do we know this? Because by all accounts Nabers is among the top couple of players in this draft, position aside. Given that and flaws that Maye has, it’s fair to say that without factoring in position, whatever grade they had on Nabers is likely AT LEAST as high as Maye (It very likely could have been higher as most would have had). So the fact that they offered two 1s and a 2 to try to move up for Maye, opposed to a player like Nabers --clearly the reason is the boost Maye got for being QB.
So now given that we know they had prioritized the QB position on their draft board, the fact that there were other QBs there for the taking when they picked at 6 tells you all you need to know about their evaluations on them. They weighted QBs favorably but clearly they weren’t going to draft a QB just to draft a QB.
So plan B was what it was based on the options and their assessments of the prospects. They can’t make a QB who has a grade to justify the pick simply appear.
Whether or not the other QBs prove to be franchise QBs or not remains to be seen. We can only speculate on that at this point. But at the end of the day, you're stuck with what the draft makes available to you.
Yes, the average conference champion in the post Ty Law rules era (minus Foles as the extreme outlier) has averaged 4k/30TDs.
See, not too hard. I think your big data associates would be proud.