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| Michael Lombardi @mlombardiNFL What has Jones ever done to deserve this deal and eat up 18.8% of the Giants’ cap? He is 6-21 against teams that went on to make the playoffs, 0-11 against teams that won twelve or more games, and according to NFL research, the only quarterback to receive a contract in excess of $100 million and never have a season of throwing for 3,500 yards, or 25 plus touchdowns. |
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In comment 16536666 Sean said:
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1. Tampa Bay did not draft Mayfield. They had less attachment to him.
2. Tampa Bay benefitted from seeing how the Jones deal played out in year one.
I think a third, and it's unfortunately the point I've made over and over: the Giants really like Daniel Jones.
this is correct and something we talked about last year once the details of his deal came out.
when judge came in you may remember he refused to name him the starter in the offseason he was hired until camp. in 2022 he had the 5yo first declined. Jones seems to win people over. this will probably queue some maraphobia, but that doesn't explain it when each regime first entered willing to not endorse him. or why schoen didnt just tag him last year if the price got outside his comfort zone. or why they passed on qbs this year when mara publicly said it was up to them.
they put those incentives in his contract for being top 5/top 10 in a bunch of stats because they know what he isnt. but i think we now have an abundance of evidence that they like what he is, even post torn acl.
I wonder if next years HC will fall in love with Jones too
The others on that list, I wouldn't pay. I don't think you're winning a title with any of them.
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In comment 16536124 ChrisRick said:
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In comment 16536107 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16536100 ChrisRick said:
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In comment 16536085 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16536083 christian said:
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There's no doubt Jones was hyper-efficient in 2022. Ideally at any position you're looking for a balance of efficiency and productivity.
At the risk of digressing, that's why I'm always leery to get excited at a pass catcher with high catch numbers, when it's really the yards per target that move the needle.
I can't imagine the Giants compensated Jones because they felt 2022 was a destination. And let's be real, there are lots of players who get compensated for that. Meaning, the team would be more than happy to rinse and repeat results.
I'm assuming the Giants compensated Jones because they felt like 2022 was a marker in upward journey.
I think you're probably giving the Giants too much credit. John Mara said "We're back!" and then slept through this:
Did you think the Giants should pay Jones after the Minnesota playoff win?
For about 12 hours, yes. After the elation of the playoff win wore off, logical thought took back over.
After the Philadelphia game (which did happen), most of the good feeling around the team was gone for me. It was clear what they were: a pretty poor team that was the beneficiary of a good deal of luck and an excellent coaching performance.
I'm right that the Philadelphia game happened? Winning in Minnesota wasn't the Super Bowl?
From my pov Terps, you are very harsh with the Giants decisions (understandable to a point). I also think that it is somewhat probable that you believe you would be a much better GM of the team based on your comments over the years. You (probably through emotion) thought Jones should be paid after beating a team with an absolute terrible defense (possibly historically bad). It just seems a little off that you often mock the Giants and other fans for talking positively about the Minnesota playoff win, yet that very game was a deciding factor in your thinking that Jones should be paid.
There isn't a doubt in my mind that Terps would have been a better GM than the collective performances of our GMs over the past decade.
Terps has been spot on in recognizing the fundamental problems with this organization, problems that have been completely missed for years by the shills, pollyanna gaslighters and delusional optimists on this board, all of whom attempt to bully other fans into submission with their off base opinions of this severely underperforming organization. The enemy is not other Giants fans. It is the inconceivably poor management of this franchise.
There isn't a greater Giants fan on this board than Terps. To indefatigably counter the trolling fanboy bullshit on behalf of the very large contingent of "beyond distressed Giants fans" is the very definition of a leader. Keep up the great work Terps and maybe some day we will have a competitive team again!
I wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment. I have not and do not see anything special about Terps' track record here. That is not a bad thing, I just think it is commonly overstated. He's been right on certain things and wrong on other like most of us.
Terps has been right about the NYG franchise culture of "friends and family". And about the idea that they must first fall in love with players before they can commit to them. Yes he has been wrong on players. As have we all. But what he is actually saying is that there needs to be a ruthless performance based meritocracy that governs the development of personnel, not the consistently wrong preferences of an ivory tower oligarchy.
So it isn't about Malik Willis or JJ McCarthy. It is about drafting quarterbacks as often as necessary to find their elite guy. Not one every fifteen years. This year, after missing out on Drake Maye, there was only one reason in this world to have not drafted either Pratt or Milton in the sixth round. And that is their unconditional love for DJ and their desire to prove themselves right on this ridiculous six year charade.
Had Terps been GM, he would have drafted Lamar Jackson in 2018. And this entire DJ Era would never have happened. Instead, we are looking square in the face now after the Trevor Lawrence contract of the DJ Era now extending through 2026. Why? Not because DJ is a good player. Far from it. He will likely be characterized when all is said and done as the worst NFL quarterback to have ever played the position. HardTruth will skillfully guide BBI with facts as this now likely plays out for three more years.
No. It is because they simply like him! He is friends and family now. And that means that Terps, once again, has been right all along.
Eric is gonna hate the drop-off once Dan leaves.
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1. Tampa Bay did not draft Mayfield. They had less attachment to him.
2. Tampa Bay benefitted from seeing how the Jones deal played out in year one.
I think a third, and it's unfortunately the point I've made over and over: the Giants really like Daniel Jones.
I agree. Just how much is still worth debating. On one hand it's clear that Schoen is not going to draft a QB just to draft one. If NYG was picking third, there is no doubt in my mind that Maye would be a Giant. So in that scenario, they like Jones, but not enough to pass on Maye.
I think it's reasonable to say NYG wanted to take McCarthy and they met with him as much as they did to try and justify taking him at six. They couldn't get there and that will remain to be seen if that was the correct move or not. Penix & Nix are two different cases - both 24 and only 2.5 years younger than Jones. I expect QBs like them to be available each year. They both got much better after they transferred schools.
I wanted any of the top six QBs, I also expected the back end of those QBs to be available in the second round.
So, do they like Jones? Of course. Do they like him to keep him as the starter in 2025 after a 7-10 season? I don't think so.
He either has a good season or he’s done. It’s that simple. I think he will play well but people think he has to play all pro level and that’s unfair. He now has weapons, expectations are higher. I think he can hit 3800 yards if the receivers stay healthy.
He did beat the 424-429 Vikings in the playoffs.
That's points scored/points given up during the regular season. Giant's fans like to point to a selective statistic to make it look like the Vikings were something impressive in 2022.
Wow, one playoff season in his 5 years, 20% of the time, when the average NFL team gets to the playoff 43.75% of the time.
And late round QB was going to be evaluated against DeVito who's already won NFL games. There is a good chance Milton and Pratt never do.
Well let's shut site down!
Also, I am not sure how Terps doing 'good work' in a fan forum helps make the Giants competitive again. This forum has a weird take that the Giants look to the fans opinions on this forum to run the team. In fact, it does not make any sense considering the Giants often do not follow the opinions of the fans here.
Have you also considered that it is a hell of a lot easier saying what you would do as a fan in forum vs pulling the trigger when the bullets are live?
Not a lot of members but they are very dedicated.
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In comment 16536557 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16536532 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 16536521 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16536512 ajr2456 said:
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I’m sure there Giants like Saqoun a lot, not budging from their price doesn’t mean they didn’t want him back a lot.
Plenty of teams let players they love walk because they don’t feel the price is worth it. You don’t think the Giants would have taken back Linval Joseph if the price was reasonable?
I don’t need to stretch too hard to believe the gm was telling the truth about liking a guy he signs to the biggest contract in franchise history.
And linval signed a reasonable contract that ended up being underpaid, we stupidly paid Beason instead of him at a similar amount. Bad teams are usually the result of bad choices.
Like signing a QB who can’t throw touchdowns to a contract that takes up 17% of next years cap
Where did I ever say extending jones may not end up a bad choice? Just bc they paid a reasonable price doesn’t mean it will work out.
The simpleton ? Lombardi is click baiting was “what did he ever do to get paid what he’s paid” and the answer is 2022. The 17% is more stupid hyperbole bc last year he was like 6%.
So what you’re saying is Lombardi, or anyone else for that matter that doesn’t view ‘22 as anything more than a mediocre performance in a dumbed down version of Daboll offense with a easy schedule as some kind of season that should lead to a $40M+/year contract after the much larger sample size would fore tell that this QB may just not be very good is/are just “simpletons” looking for click bait? Wtf? And don’t give us this shit that you aren’t saying it wasn’t a bad contract. If you honestly felt that way it wouldn’t be such a shock to you that Lombardi and many, many, many others feel it was a bad contract based an an incredibly small and yet overstated sample size of that “historic” ‘22 season
Not quite - I’m saying anyone who wants to claim to be an nfl expert like mr “eye of the gm” should understand why jones got paid what he did because it is basic nfl economics. They don’t need to agree with it.
I’d also point out that if 18 games of 2022 was “incredibly small and yet overstated sample size” isn’t the same even more true for those looking to use the far smaller sample of 2023 as a means to invalidate 2022?
Sure, if you want to pretend that Daniel Jones’ career started in 2022 like many of you seem to want to do. Unfortunately for your argument, it didn’t….
This should be easy for all those so sure the have the right read on him, and it's objective.
Perhaps one day Lamar will do the same. Doesn't get much better than having a top D that holds a team to zero points in the second half of the AFCCG. Ravens built that team to accommodate his skill set but hard to navigate the playoffs without the big game from the pocket. This was the concern with him coming out of college that has proven to be accurate imv.
This should be easy for all those so sure the have the right read on him, and it's objective.
I will be surprised if Jones finishes the season this year. I think he could easily be benched due to performance and of course injury issues. I moved on from Jones last year (I never accepted him as a franchise qb, but I wanted to be patient to give him what I considered a fair shot.) From my uneducated view of qb play, he continued to make poor decisions last year despite having the experience. QB's with enough experience in the league (even under bad circumstances) should be able (in my view) show they have improved their decision making skills. I did not see that.
The economics make keeping him next year easy. I first thought it was an interesting blip, but it was actually a savvy move for Team Jones.
His cash costs per year:
2023 - 46
2024 - 36
2025 - 30
2026 - 47
Years one and two were the full guarantees, but year three is weirdly cheap.
If he plays well and they don't pick a QB, he stays.
If he's average, and they pick a replacement he's a cheap enough bridge.
If he gets hurt seriously, 23M is guaranteed, so unless he loses a leg they'll probably keep him as a cheap enough bridge.
The only way he's not a Giant is if he's healthy in March of 2025 and was awful.
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So, do they like Jones? Of course. Do they like him to keep him as the starter in 2025 after a 7-10 season? I don't think so.
The economics make keeping him next year easy. I first thought it was an interesting blip, but it was actually a savvy move for Team Jones.
His cash costs per year:
2023 - 46
2024 - 36
2025 - 30
2026 - 47
Years one and two were the full guarantees, but year three is weirdly cheap.
If he plays well and they don't pick a QB, he stays.
If he's average, and they pick a replacement he's a cheap enough bridge.
If he gets hurt seriously, 23M is guaranteed, so unless he loses a leg they'll probably keep him as a cheap enough bridge.
The only way he's not a Giant is if he's healthy in March of 2025 and was awful.
with 15 months of hindsight, i think his deal was a 2 year trial with 2 option years. yes that was probably obvious day 1, but i think 2023 was a stress test of sorts that tested their resolve. In a worst case scenario where everything goes as badly as possible, including a major knee injury, will they still like him as much as they did in the afterglow of a cinderella season knowing there was an escape hatch 1 year away?
the answer ended up being yes. i suppose they werent blind to maye, but i dont think they were blind to jones demonstrated ceiling when they signed him for all the reasons mentioned in this thread re where his contract ranks.
The savvy part on Team Jones's part, whether by design or luck, was having the cash cost in year three dip.
He's exceedingly keepable in year three, whether as a bridge or the guy.
The only way he gets cut is if he's both healthy and truly sucks. I'd file that under practically guaranteed.
And late round QB was going to be evaluated against DeVito who's already won NFL games. There is a good chance Milton and Pratt never do.
Yes, I believe Nix and JJM are middling talents, no better and no worse than DJ himself. I would have had no problem with Schoen drafting Penix. But as I have said, given the injury risk and the opportunity cost of Nabers, I was fine with the pick at six. But picking a JAG linebacker instead of either Milton or Pratt, which would have meant that one of the four QBs would be cut before the 2024 season, would be a clear signal that the disastrous age of anointed scholarships for middling talents was over and that an elite talent would have to EARN the starting position going forward. Instead, we are likely now left with DJ Era status quo for three more years. So yes, not picking Milton or Pratt with a throw away draft pick was another devastating miss by Schoen.
This should be easy for all those so sure the have the right read on him, and it's objective.
Here's a simple answer derived from his career averages and what i expect to be an offense that passes the ball very close to 600x:
64% comp
19.8 tds (3.3% of 600)
12.6 ints (2.1% of 600)
3900 yards (6.6 y/a)
85 QB rating
50-60 QBR (which would rank somewhere between 10-20 most years)
and then lets say 100 rushes @ 5 ypc for 500 yards rushing plus a few tds (i regressed his rushing under his career averages assuming some negative injury impact).
i'll let everyone else more confident on the future guess how many games he plays, they have more foresight on the future than me. 60/5 = 12 so that's probably where id set the o/u.
Not a lot of members but they are very dedicated.
Another brilliant contribution from Dup_026!
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Can we call the Mike the president of the GTFC?
Not a lot of members but they are very dedicated.
Another brilliant contribution from Dup_026!
How would you know him? You weren’t around when he was here? So any interaction with him means that YOU are the dupe, dope, or dip.
Good job outing yourself el presidente of the GTFC.
Absolutely brilliant…. So come on tough guy - what was your previous handle?
Also, I am not sure how Terps doing 'good work' in a fan forum helps make the Giants competitive again. This forum has a weird take that the Giants look to the fans opinions on this forum to run the team. In fact, it does not make any sense considering the Giants often do not follow the opinions of the fans here.
Have you also considered that it is a hell of a lot easier saying what you would do as a fan in forum vs pulling the trigger when the bullets are live?
This site is tremendous because it gives us as fans, who have been left in the wilderness now for a decade by a management group who cares more about the inner workings of the organization rather than putting a winning product on the field, a voice to express ourselves. The ouster of Joe Judge, driven by Eric and his daughter, makes it crystal clear that opinions on this site do in fact matter. So yes, Terps is doing very good work in representing a very large faction of fans who are beyond demoralized at this point.
What a fucking stupid statement.
That's a must. If it's a 2-5 start, he's done here imo. The fans are at their wits end. I don't see a scenario where starting slow and sticking with Jones is on the table. Unless they are losing shootouts.
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who the f__k cares what you guys think
Well let's shut site down!
I am afraid you and a few others would have nothing to do all day.
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In comment 16536792 JT039 said:
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Can we call the Mike the president of the GTFC?
Not a lot of members but they are very dedicated.
Another brilliant contribution from Dup_026!
How would you know him? You weren’t around when he was here? So any interaction with him means that YOU are the dupe, dope, or dip.
Good job outing yourself el presidente of the GTFC.
Absolutely brilliant…. So come on tough guy - what was your previous handle?
I was a lurker for many years but began posting in 2018 - and battled throughout the Spring of 2018 with Terps and others that Barkley was the sensible draft pick over Darnold. Terps had declared that Lamar Jackson was the sensible pick and I fought vigorously that Eli still had one more run and he just needed an elite running back. It turns out, I was dead wrong and he was absolutely right. Terps EARNED my respect at that time because he never backed off his point of view. And he continues to EARN it and I now consider his posts absolute "must read" opinions on this forum, despite not always agreeing with him.
On the day that DJ was drafted in 2019, April 25, 2019, I suspended my account and vowed to root for other teams until Gettleman was fired. In March 2021, I forgave the organization after two years and rejoined BBI under the same handle. Eric can confirm this. Please feel free to look at threads leading up to the 2018 draft if you don't believe me. But please stop gaslighting others on this board with your nonsense.
lol. We have a winner!!
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Instead of the obsessive back and forth over the past, why not just put your point of views to the test. We are where we are, but what matters is what's ahead. 1) How many wins will he have this year, 2) what will Jones' stat line look like (projected over 17 game season if he misses time): Total Yards, Total TDs, and Interceptions 3) and what will his QB rank be.
This should be easy for all those so sure the have the right read on him, and it's objective.
Here's a simple answer derived from his career averages and what i expect to be an offense that passes the ball very close to 600x:
64% comp
19.8 tds (3.3% of 600)
12.6 ints (2.1% of 600)
3900 yards (6.6 y/a)
85 QB rating
50-60 QBR (which would rank somewhere between 10-20 most years)
and then lets say 100 rushes @ 5 ypc for 500 yards rushing plus a few tds (i regressed his rushing under his career averages assuming some negative injury impact).
i'll let everyone else more confident on the future guess how many games he plays, they have more foresight on the future than me. 60/5 = 12 so that's probably where id set the o/u.
Would it be fair to adjust your projections above (set at 600 att) to align with playing 12 of 17 games? That would imply 423.53 attempts (70.59% of 600), and the rest of the numbers would adjust accordingly.
If so, his numbers would instead be:
64% comp
14 TDs (3.3% of 423.53)
9 INTs (2.1% of 424.53)
2795 passing yards (6.6 y/a x 423.53)
Even leaving his rushing numbers as you have them (since you already adjusted for potential injury impact, and it feels like that impact could happen in the form of missed games rather than reduced attempts, TBD), would anyone get excited about that stat line?
So would it shock me if he threw for 4000 yards and 25 TDs? Not at all.
And guess what - even with stats like that it doesn’t mean he’s worth keeping either.
lol. We have a winner!!
Dep thoughts with Jack Tandy... doing what he does best as usual. Gaslighting other posters to conceal his utter lack of football acumen. Start thinking about your next handle - you will need it soon.
If the Giants win 7 games, good chance we see a new HC unless one of those seasons with heavy injuries and a bunch of very close losses. The new HC will then have a big say with the QB decision.
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Who quit on his team.
lol. We have a winner!!
Dep thoughts with Jack Tandy... doing what he does best as usual. Gaslighting other posters to conceal his utter lack of football acumen. Start thinking about your next handle - you will need it soon.
Please quit on the giants again. Board was better without you. Maybe you can “lurk” again - el presidente of GTFC.
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Terps has been far from the only poster to call the Giants out on the behavior you have described above, just the loudest.
Also, I am not sure how Terps doing 'good work' in a fan forum helps make the Giants competitive again. This forum has a weird take that the Giants look to the fans opinions on this forum to run the team. In fact, it does not make any sense considering the Giants often do not follow the opinions of the fans here.
Have you also considered that it is a hell of a lot easier saying what you would do as a fan in forum vs pulling the trigger when the bullets are live?
This site is tremendous because it gives us as fans, who have been left in the wilderness now for a decade by a management group who cares more about the inner workings of the organization rather than putting a winning product on the field, a voice to express ourselves. The ouster of Joe Judge, driven by Eric and his daughter, makes it crystal clear that opinions on this site do in fact matter. So yes, Terps is doing very good work in representing a very large faction of fans who are beyond demoralized at this point.
Do you have proof that BBI played an intricate role in Judge being fired?
Well let's shut site down!
I am afraid you and a few others would have nothing to do all day.
I'm assuming this recent old bitchy queen act is a new development for you. Someone this whiney I would have noticed before.
LOS - Yes, I have seen this claim. I can see that being used as a single piece of 'evidence' but not proof.
The clown picture very well may have circulated through the NYG office, but that does not necessarily mean that Judge was fired because of it. I think he contributed plenty of that. Saying another way - If the clown picture does not get posted, does Judge still get fired? I think yes.
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who the f__k cares what you guys think
Well let's shut site down!
I am afraid you and a few others would have nothing to do all day.
I'm assuming this recent old bitchy queen act is a new development for you. Someone this whiney I would have noticed before.
Yep. This is the same clown that ridiculed everyone for posting on BBI this past weekend because he was out golfing so everyone else must be losers without a life. Must be his golf nerd buddies dumped his ass today so it’s cool to post, while once again ridiculing others for posting…
But you don't see my patrolling the greens telling everyone they're losers for spending their afternoon golfing!
But you don't see my patrolling the greens telling everyone they're losers for spending their afternoon golfing!
Your dry humor is a definite plus to this site.
Devastating? Haha wow. I would love to see a live look at the reactions of real NFL personnel executives when reading BBI.
Oh and you got a lil’ something on your chin Mike.
So would it shock me if he threw for 4000 yards and 25 TDs? Not at all.
And guess what - even with stats like that it doesn’t mean he’s worth keeping either.
Can Jones attack those 12-20 yard area? I don't think he's accurate enough, anticipates enough or has a good enough arm to make up for the other two issues. He's the worst passer of the the 3 qb's. We shall see.
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Because he’s going to throw a lot more this year because we don’t have Barkley and we added some nice weapons. Plus the growth of Robinson and Hyatt should help.
So would it shock me if he threw for 4000 yards and 25 TDs? Not at all.
And guess what - even with stats like that it doesn’t mean he’s worth keeping either.
DC's get paid too. How are they going to play the Giants with Jones at qb? I think they are going to have their pass rushers stay in their lanes, change their coverages in the short zones and play safeties deep. Make Jones throw in that 12-20 yard area and with anticipation. If the Giants want to hand the ball off 25-30 times to what we have at rb or run Jones on designed runs, DC's will be glad to let them do it.
Can Jones attack those 12-20 yard area? I don't think he's accurate enough, anticipates enough or has a good enough arm to make up for the other two issues. He's the worst passer of the the 3 qb's. We shall see.
That’s very possible too. It’s a great unknown. I think we have some very good WRs that can get big chunk plays this year.
But to be clear before I am labeled by posters. Jones can have impressive stats but be carried by his WRs. I really like our WRs now.
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In comment 16536896 joe48 said:
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who the f__k cares what you guys think
Well let's shut site down!
I am afraid you and a few others would have nothing to do all day.
I'm assuming this recent old bitchy queen act is a new development for you. Someone this whiney I would have noticed before.
Yep. This is the same clown that ridiculed everyone for posting on BBI this past weekend because he was out golfing so everyone else must be losers without a life. Must be his golf nerd buddies dumped his ass today so it’s cool to post, while once again ridiculing others for posting…
The clown golfed again this morning with his nerd friends. Happy Father’s Day!🤣