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| Quote: |
| Michael Lombardi @mlombardiNFL What has Jones ever done to deserve this deal and eat up 18.8% of the Giants’ cap? He is 6-21 against teams that went on to make the playoffs, 0-11 against teams that won twelve or more games, and according to NFL research, the only quarterback to receive a contract in excess of $100 million and never have a season of throwing for 3,500 yards, or 25 plus touchdowns. |
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if russell wilsons real gtd money that he's getting paid by DEN counted, he'd be QB13 and if Aaron Rodgers didn't take a paycut he'd be QB14.
and that's all counting the entirely non-guaranteed 20.6% 4th year (and the partially guaranteed 16% 3rd year).
if they exit Jones after 2 years he will have gotten ~13% over the 2 years. the 2023 tag would have = 14.5%.
You don't contend for Super Bowls paying QB12 money to QB29.
seems like maybe they need to first figure out how to contend for winning records more than twice/decade.
This is accurate. Jones isn’t the worst starting QB - but being payed in the 10-12 range is still very bad.
*except pretending the year he got extended off didnt happen when he was QB11 in EPA/play and QB6 in QBR.
If anything you’re making the case for why the contract was bad. They extended him off an ok, not great year where the team slipped in the second half of the year.
If anything you’re making the case for why the contract was bad. They extended him off an ok, not great year where the team slipped in the second half of the year.
a) you're cherry picking 1 stat that ignores the fact that a big part of the job is not making mistakes (he was 1st in INT%)
b) is 14th in the league still "at best 20-25th"?
and yes, for the purposes of the guys who extended him id imagine the 2 prior years were close to meaningless. id say those years impacted their decision to decline his option, but what he did with them likely factored in exponentially more than what previously incompetent regimes did with him.
thank you Sean i appreciate that. contrary to what lombardi tells you most of the professionals arent complete morons and if you look hard enough there's some level of data supporting 99% of the $ decisions they all make. the market is pretty simple that way.
lombardi is about as close to a moron as a formerly employed gm can get, which is why he only lasted 1 year and in the decade since has had to self title his "gm" brand. He is a full time click bait troll and part time hype man for whoever employs his kids.
Was Jones actually a more valuable QB than Burrow and Herbert because his QBR was higher? Was he better than Goff in 2022 because his EPA was higher? Or are advanced stats not everything?
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If you don’t count any other QBs rushing TDS that puts him at 14th in the league in touchdowns. Do the two years prior to that not count?
If anything you’re making the case for why the contract was bad. They extended him off an ok, not great year where the team slipped in the second half of the year.
a) you're cherry picking 1 stat that ignores the fact that a big part of the job is not making mistakes (he was 1st in INT%)
b) is 14th in the league still "at best 20-25th"?
and yes, for the purposes of the guys who extended him id imagine the 2 prior years were close to meaningless. id say those years impacted their decision to decline his option, but what he did with them likely factored in exponentially more than what
previously incompetent regimes did with him.
He was first in INT% because he took fewer chances. All the passing metrics say this. You want to refuse to acknowledge that his lack of productivity (by choice) led to the low INT%? What's more important than not making mistakes? Being productive! And all Jones' productivity passing metrics were bottom 3rd of the league in 2022. and very bottom in 2023.
In 2022:
Jones was 24th in Y/A. 28th in TD%. 26th in sack rate.
6.1 percent of Jones’ pass attempts traveled at least 20 yards in the air in 2022, 33rd in the NFL.
Jones’ average pass traveled 3.1 yards short of the first down markers in 2022, 34th in the NFL.
Jones' average 6.4 air yards per attempt in 2022, was 30th in the NFL.
He sacrificed productivity to have a low INT%, and that is an unacceptable trade-off.
Go Terps : 6/4/2024 6:19 pm : link : reply
If you look into the 2022 stats it tells quite a story. Here are the Giants' league rankings in the following offensive stats:
Total number of plays run: 13th
Rush attempts: 8th
Pass attempts: 25th
Yards/Rush Attempt: 5th
Yards/Pass Attempt: 24th
Intended air yards/pass attempt: 30th
Pass TD%: 26th
Pass Int%: 1st (meaning lowest percentage of intercepted passed in the league)
In sum, here's the 2022 Giants passing offense, in an image:
Then when they tried to put a little more on Jones in 2023, we got this:
Daniel Jones wasn't a good passer in 2022. He was a good runner. And now he's recovering from a torn ACL.
Link - ( New Window )
Was Jones actually a more valuable QB than Burrow and Herbert because his QBR was higher? Was he better than Goff in 2022 because his EPA was higher? Or are advanced stats not everything?
Hurry up and fax this important and obvious non-advanced data to Lamar/Goff/Burrow/Herbert's agents so they can make sure to get their clients more $ than Jones!!!
yes hard to believe an offense that started david sills at WR for the first month of the season wasn't running a vertical passing game. real genius level stuff here, you should send lombardi your resume. he can give you a segment called "the agent shuffle".
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If we count those for everyone else he’s probably back down to the late teens.
Was Jones actually a more valuable QB than Burrow and Herbert because his QBR was higher? Was he better than Goff in 2022 because his EPA was higher? Or are advanced stats not everything?
Hurry up and fax this important and obvious non-advanced data to Lamar/Goff/Burrow/Herbert's agents so they can make sure to get their clients more $ than Jones!!!
Missing the point as always. If I’m just cherry picking his normal stats aren’t you just cherry picking his advanced stats that make him look better than he actually was in 2022?
The name of the game is scoring points, preferably more than the other team. As a passer, the main component to playing QB, he was 21st in TDs, 24th in N/YA, 19th in A/YA.
The Giants didn’t run an offense that took risks which inflated his efficiency because it kept the turnovers away. If you have to run a remedial offense because you’re afraid your QB is going to turn the ball over, you don’t have a QB worth being the 12th highest paid in the league.
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Had to use smoke and mirrors to minimize his turnovers was 14th. If they ran any sort of vertical passing game in 2022 he wouldn’t have been top 12 in EPA.
yes hard to believe an offense that started david sills at WR for the first month of the season wasn't running a vertical passing game. real genius level stuff here, you should send lombardi your resume. he can give you a segment called "the agent shuffle".
lol, interesting you always feel the need to bring up my profession in a condescending way.
So at least you admit his EPA was fraudulent because of the offense they ran.
Wentz was top 10 in QBR and EPA in 2021, that proved a lot. Geno had the same QBR and a higher EPA in 2022 and he was not made the 12th highest paid QB. Brissett has been top 10 in both and he’s still a journeyman. It’s almost like you don’t pay a guy with below average career production in regular stats $40 million a year because his advanced stats are great one year.
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Make him stop. It hurts me feelings.
Just change your handle again. You’ll feel better.
At the risk of digressing, that's why I'm always leery to get excited at a pass catcher with high catch numbers, when it's really the yards per target that move the needle.
I can't imagine the Giants compensated Jones because they felt 2022 was a destination. And let's be real, there are lots of players who get compensated for that. Meaning, the team would be more than happy to rinse and repeat results.
I'm assuming the Giants compensated Jones because they felt like 2022 was a marker in upward journey.
At the risk of digressing, that's why I'm always leery to get excited at a pass catcher with high catch numbers, when it's really the yards per target that move the needle.
I can't imagine the Giants compensated Jones because they felt 2022 was a destination. And let's be real, there are lots of players who get compensated for that. Meaning, the team would be more than happy to rinse and repeat results.
I'm assuming the Giants compensated Jones because they felt like 2022 was a marker in upward journey.
I think you're probably giving the Giants too much credit. John Mara said "We're back!" and then slept through this:
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If we count those for everyone else he’s probably back down to the late teens.
Was Jones actually a more valuable QB than Burrow and Herbert because his QBR was higher? Was he better than Goff in 2022 because his EPA was higher? Or are advanced stats not everything?
Hurry up and fax this important and obvious non-advanced data to Lamar/Goff/Burrow/Herbert's agents so they can make sure to get their clients more $ than Jones!!!
Jealousy isn't a great color on you.
At the risk of digressing, that's why I'm always leery to get excited at a pass catcher with high catch numbers, when it's really the yards per target that move the needle.
I can't imagine the Giants compensated Jones because they felt 2022 was a destination. And let's be real, there are lots of players who get compensated for that. Meaning, the team would be more than happy to rinse and repeat results.
I'm assuming the Giants compensated Jones because they felt like 2022 was a marker in upward journey.
This. They didn’t pay Jones because his EPA was high, they paid him because they thought they could keep it high while also getting 25-30 touchdowns from him, which through one year of the contract has a been a failure.
Advanced stats are meaningless when not used hand in hand with production. David Garrard has the 7th highest QBR season of all time and had the second best QBR in 2007, despite being 18th in YPG, 16th in TDs per game.
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There's no doubt Jones was hyper-efficient in 2022. Ideally at any position you're looking for a balance of efficiency and productivity.
At the risk of digressing, that's why I'm always leery to get excited at a pass catcher with high catch numbers, when it's really the yards per target that move the needle.
I can't imagine the Giants compensated Jones because they felt 2022 was a destination. And let's be real, there are lots of players who get compensated for that. Meaning, the team would be more than happy to rinse and repeat results.
I'm assuming the Giants compensated Jones because they felt like 2022 was a marker in upward journey.
I think you're probably giving the Giants too much credit. John Mara said "We're back!" and then slept through this:
Did you think the Giants should pay Jones after the Minnesota playoff win?
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In comment 16536049 ajr2456 said:
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If we count those for everyone else he’s probably back down to the late teens.
Was Jones actually a more valuable QB than Burrow and Herbert because his QBR was higher? Was he better than Goff in 2022 because his EPA was higher? Or are advanced stats not everything?
Hurry up and fax this important and obvious non-advanced data to Lamar/Goff/Burrow/Herbert's agents so they can make sure to get their clients more $ than Jones!!!
Jealousy isn't a great color on you.
oh hey look GD with a stalking midstream comment that has nothing to do with the thread. closet full of that color.
This. They didn’t pay Jones because his EPA was high, they paid him because they thought they could keep it high while also getting 25-30 touchdowns from him, which through one year of the contract has a been a failure.
welcome to reality. if even HE (daniel jones) believed he was a top 10 Qb he wouldnt have signed the deal he signed. look how much all the guys around him got. it was a risk/reward contract for both sides.
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In comment 16536083 christian said:
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There's no doubt Jones was hyper-efficient in 2022. Ideally at any position you're looking for a balance of efficiency and productivity.
At the risk of digressing, that's why I'm always leery to get excited at a pass catcher with high catch numbers, when it's really the yards per target that move the needle.
I can't imagine the Giants compensated Jones because they felt 2022 was a destination. And let's be real, there are lots of players who get compensated for that. Meaning, the team would be more than happy to rinse and repeat results.
I'm assuming the Giants compensated Jones because they felt like 2022 was a marker in upward journey.
I think you're probably giving the Giants too much credit. John Mara said "We're back!" and then slept through this:
Did you think the Giants should pay Jones after the Minnesota playoff win?
For about 12 hours, yes. After the elation of the playoff win wore off, logical thought took back over.
After the Philadelphia game (which did happen), most of the good feeling around the team was gone for me. It was clear what they were: a pretty poor team that was the beneficiary of a good deal of luck and an excellent coaching performance.
I'm right that the Philadelphia game happened? Winning in Minnesota wasn't the Super Bowl?
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In comment 16536058 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16536049 ajr2456 said:
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If we count those for everyone else he’s probably back down to the late teens.
Was Jones actually a more valuable QB than Burrow and Herbert because his QBR was higher? Was he better than Goff in 2022 because his EPA was higher? Or are advanced stats not everything?
Hurry up and fax this important and obvious non-advanced data to Lamar/Goff/Burrow/Herbert's agents so they can make sure to get their clients more $ than Jones!!!
Jealousy isn't a great color on you.
oh hey look GD with a stalking midstream comment that has nothing to do with the thread. closet full of that color.
You're making comments about someone's profession, repeatedly, but I'm the stalker?
I don't even want to imagine the sort of TRO that Kent Platte might have to get.
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This. They didn’t pay Jones because his EPA was high, they paid him because they thought they could keep it high while also getting 25-30 touchdowns from him, which through one year of the contract has a been a failure.
welcome to reality. if even HE (daniel jones) believed he was a top 10 Qb he wouldnt have signed the deal he signed. look how much all the guys around him got. it was a risk/reward contract for both sides.
And so far the risk has outweighed the reward and the contract so far has been bad.
That’s living in reality. The only thing that matters is what happens after the contract is signed. With how 2022 went even a contract that paid him 20th in the league would be a bad contract.
If he was say the Panthers QB no one would know who he was. He's only talked about mainstream because of being in NY
You're making comments about someone's profession, repeatedly, but I'm the stalker?
I don't even want to imagine the sort of TRO that Kent Platte might have to get.
just to be clear the only reason i make light of his stated profession is because he brings it up as his credential in these cap related discussions when oftentimes he's got basic facts wrong like "at best 20-25".
your vocation as bbi's resident thread stalker is in a different category of emotional disorder that im surprised i havent just muted yet but i guess no time like the present.
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In comment 16536085 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16536083 christian said:
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There's no doubt Jones was hyper-efficient in 2022. Ideally at any position you're looking for a balance of efficiency and productivity.
At the risk of digressing, that's why I'm always leery to get excited at a pass catcher with high catch numbers, when it's really the yards per target that move the needle.
I can't imagine the Giants compensated Jones because they felt 2022 was a destination. And let's be real, there are lots of players who get compensated for that. Meaning, the team would be more than happy to rinse and repeat results.
I'm assuming the Giants compensated Jones because they felt like 2022 was a marker in upward journey.
I think you're probably giving the Giants too much credit. John Mara said "We're back!" and then slept through this:
Did you think the Giants should pay Jones after the Minnesota playoff win?
For about 12 hours, yes. After the elation of the playoff win wore off, logical thought took back over.
After the Philadelphia game (which did happen), most of the good feeling around the team was gone for me. It was clear what they were: a pretty poor team that was the beneficiary of a good deal of luck and an excellent coaching performance.
I'm right that the Philadelphia game happened? Winning in Minnesota wasn't the Super Bowl?
From my pov Terps, you are very harsh with the Giants decisions (understandable to a point). I also think that it is somewhat probable that you believe you would be a much better GM of the team based on your comments over the years. You (probably through emotion) thought Jones should be paid after beating a team with an absolute terrible defense (possibly historically bad). It just seems a little off that you often mock the Giants and other fans for talking positively about the Minnesota playoff win, yet that very game was a deciding factor in your thinking that Jones should be paid.
Him having one year of top 10 EPA doesn’t mean he’s not still a bottom third QB in the league.
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In comment 16536089 ajr2456 said:
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This. They didn’t pay Jones because his EPA was high, they paid him because they thought they could keep it high while also getting 25-30 touchdowns from him, which through one year of the contract has a been a failure.
welcome to reality. if even HE (daniel jones) believed he was a top 10 Qb he wouldnt have signed the deal he signed. look how much all the guys around him got. it was a risk/reward contract for both sides.
And so far the risk has outweighed the reward and the contract so far has been bad.
That’s living in reality. The only thing that matters is what happens after the contract is signed. With how 2022 went even a contract that paid him 20th in the league would be a bad contract.
there are never guarantees on how the future will go after signing contracts. just ask browns/watson and broncos/wilson. obviously 2023 was a disaster, nobody argued otherwise, just as nobody would argue otherwise that those other deals ended up being disasters even though they were well understood at the time. if you like a player and want their rights for multiple seasons, you have to meet whatever the price is. judging by how they handled this offseason even after the ACL/2023 disaster they still like jones a good amount. unlike 2022 they are wagering a pretty substantial amount of their careers on him.
Him having one year of top 10 EPA doesn’t mean he’s not still a bottom third QB in the league.
it's a basic fact that "at best" he was better than 20-25th.
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In comment 16536100 ChrisRick said:
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In comment 16536085 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16536083 christian said:
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There's no doubt Jones was hyper-efficient in 2022. Ideally at any position you're looking for a balance of efficiency and productivity.
At the risk of digressing, that's why I'm always leery to get excited at a pass catcher with high catch numbers, when it's really the yards per target that move the needle.
I can't imagine the Giants compensated Jones because they felt 2022 was a destination. And let's be real, there are lots of players who get compensated for that. Meaning, the team would be more than happy to rinse and repeat results.
I'm assuming the Giants compensated Jones because they felt like 2022 was a marker in upward journey.
I think you're probably giving the Giants too much credit. John Mara said "We're back!" and then slept through this:
Did you think the Giants should pay Jones after the Minnesota playoff win?
For about 12 hours, yes. After the elation of the playoff win wore off, logical thought took back over.
After the Philadelphia game (which did happen), most of the good feeling around the team was gone for me. It was clear what they were: a pretty poor team that was the beneficiary of a good deal of luck and an excellent coaching performance.
I'm right that the Philadelphia game happened? Winning in Minnesota wasn't the Super Bowl?
From my pov Terps, you are very harsh with the Giants decisions (understandable to a point). I also think that it is somewhat probable that you believe you would be a much better GM of the team based on your comments over the years. You (probably through emotion) thought Jones should be paid after beating a team with an absolute terrible defense (possibly historically bad). It just seems a little off that you often mock the Giants and other fans for talking positively about the Minnesota playoff win, yet that very game was a deciding factor in your thinking that Jones should be paid.
I'm as apt to get emotional about something as anyone else. Winning a playoff game after so many years of bad football felt good.
But I'm also smart enough to know you don't make big decisions when you're emotional, and you don't forecast the future based on the most optimistic outlier you can find.
There are 32 teams in the league, and over the last decade the Giants have I believe the second or third worst record of the 32...and you think I'm being harsh on them? Is that a joke?
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This. They didn’t pay Jones because his EPA was high, they paid him because they thought they could keep it high while also getting 25-30 touchdowns from him, which through one year of the contract has a been a failure.
welcome to reality. if even HE (daniel jones) believed he was a top 10 Qb he wouldnt have signed the deal he signed. look how much all the guys around him got. it was a risk/reward contract for both sides.
Jones got the least amount of guaranteed money of any current quarterback playing under a contract extension except for Baker Mayfield, who was on four different teams in twenty months.
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In terms of QB rankings or is that opinion whether he is or isn’t?
Him having one year of top 10 EPA doesn’t mean he’s not still a bottom third QB in the league.
it's a basic fact that "at best" he was better than 20-25th.
You’re twisting the post. You said he was currently QB12 in terms of cap hit and I posted they were paying him that as QB20-25 at best CURRENTLY. What he did in 2022 is irrelevant to how he has currently played to his current cap hit. They didn’t get 2022 Jones in 2023. We don’t know if they even get 2022 Jones in 2024 So far the contract is bad. At least argue honestly if you’re going to take shots at people.
So is it a basic fact that he’s better than 20-25th currently?
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In comment 16536126 ajr2456 said:
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In terms of QB rankings or is that opinion whether he is or isn’t?
Him having one year of top 10 EPA doesn’t mean he’s not still a bottom third QB in the league.
it's a basic fact that "at best" he was better than 20-25th.
You’re twisting the post. You said he was currently QB12 in terms of cap hit and I posted they were paying him that as QB20-25 at best CURRENTLY. What he did in 2022 is irrelevant to how he has currently played to his current cap hit. They didn’t get 2022 Jones in 2023. We don’t know if they even get 2022 Jones in 2024 So far the contract is bad. At least argue honestly if you’re going to take shots at people.
So is it a basic fact that he’s better than 20-25th currently?
this was your post:
In comment 16536006 ajr2456 said:
they quite obviously didnt pay him to be 20-25th. they paid him because they think he is better than that, and at his best he was. off the acl i have no idea what he will be but they seem to be confident enough to put their jobs on him being better than 20-25.
Do you not see the irony of mocking the team and it's fans that reflect on the Minnesota playoff win positively when you also thought of it positively enough to be ok with paying Jones?
Just an observation.
Again, in a league designed to help bad teams and attrite good teams, the Giants have contrived to be one of the two or three worst over a sample size of almost 200 games.
They have been an incompetent, unlikable embarrassment. We're all here because of nostalgia, inertia, and habit - if you arrived here from Mars today and decided to be an NFL fan there's little reason to choose the Giants.
Imagine viewing this past decade from an objective Martian perspective. You might find yourself exclaiming...
"$1.6 billion for THAT stadium?"
"One of their draft guys is an owner, and left the draft to go to a horse race?!"
"The owner let the GM and head coach bench the QB, but he turned around and fired them because the QB cried?!"
"They pretended to conduct a GM search so they could hire THAT guy?!"
"Wait, did they just draft a running back #2 overall?!"
"Did that GM just call a reporter 'darling'?!"
"They paid the vet QB $23M just so they could bench him after two games?!"
"They gifted their fans a medium Pepsi?!"
"The owner said WHAT about the QB during a contract negotiation?!"
"Wait, they're paying THAT guy $160M?!"
You know who would have done a better job? Eric from BBI's kid. She was spot on with the Clown Show image.
Jones got his contract because he had the Giants by the short hairs once Barkley was tagged (in my opinion because of Mara). After a road playoff win, they couldn’t let Jones walk. While its true that Jones had always had weak or worse OLs and receivers that were nothing special, he has not shown an ability to carry the team without his running and I’m guessing that will be severely curtailed this year if only because of the injury clause in his contract. The OL is better and Nabors plus some other WR talent is a major upgrade.
We can rehash what’s been discussed here millions of times already or we can just see how the year unfolds. I will wait to see what happens
Do you not see the irony of mocking the team and it's fans that reflect on the Minnesota playoff win positively when you also thought of it positively enough to be ok with paying Jones?
Just an observation.
Do you not understand the idea of being happy about something to a point where it briefly blonde you too reality? If you get a lap dance do you ask the stripper to marry you?
He’s only here to troll. Probably not even a Giants fan.
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Alright, that answers my question. You do not get it. Carry on.
He’s only here to troll. Probably not even a Giants fan.
Quite the long con, hanging around BBI for 19 years just to troll
this was your post:
In comment 16536006 ajr2456 said:
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Paying QB 12 money To QB 20-25 at best is still bad.
they quite obviously didnt pay him to be 20-25th. they paid him because they think he is better than that, and at his best he was. off the acl i have no idea what he will be but they seem to be confident enough to put their jobs on him being better than 20-25.
But currently he isnt better than top 20-25 and they are paying him as QB12, that’s bad.
What they thought he’d be and what they thought they were paying him to be is irrelevant to evaluating the contract.
It’s currently a bad contract because he’s a bottom 3rd QB currently. There’s really nothing outlandish in that post, I’m not sure where the disconnect is. Contracts get evaluated in present day and with production, not the past and hypotheticals.
Its currently a bad contract.
You don't see the foolishness in making a decision based on one emotional game weighed over a much larger sample size? Further, you don't see the problem with completely ignoring the debacle that took place a week later?
Carry on pretending to be a good actor on this site.
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In comment 16536171 ChrisRick said:
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Alright, that answers my question. You do not get it. Carry on.
He’s only here to troll. Probably not even a Giants fan.
Quite the long con, hanging around BBI for 19 years just to troll
People have weird fetishes in this world. This is probably his.