Is there any possibility of adding another thread designation beyond NFT or NGT to indicate threads where Darwinian and JT039 don't clutter the whole thing with their 3rd grade level slap fight?
I think the board is well aware of the fact they both believe the other is an idiotic dupe. Not sure why it needs to be played out over and over each day to the point you can't read the thread.
Can we also get a Daniel jones thread pinned so all Daniel jones topics can be discussed there so we don’t have the first grade pissing matches every day too?
Is there any possibility of adding another thread designation beyond NFT or NGT to indicate threads where Darwinian and JT039 don't clutter the whole thing with their 3rd grade level slap fight?
I think the board is well aware of the fact they both believe the other is an idiotic dupe. Not sure why it needs to be played out over and over each day to the point you can't read the thread.
I have rarely called him out and previously bent over backwards to be respectful or to avoid him. I don't appreciate being lumped in with him.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: and daniel jones is overpaid lol
Which is why it's silly to pay the ones who probably won't deliver rather than keep swinging for one who more realistically could.
Teams seem terrified of the great unknown, that they might end up with a QB worse than the incumbent. But value for dollar, would you rather have a mediocre QB choking your cap just because he's a known quantity? Or be willing to risk that the next QB could be worse, but might also be better? Now add to that the very important (IMO) fact that the next QB, if they're on a rookie contract, will cost less than 20% of what the established-but-not-elite QB will make on a full-price second contract. It shouldn't be as difficult a decision as it is, but NFL teams are incredibly risk-averse, often to their own detriment.
Simply declaring that most QBs are overpaid, true as that might be, doesn't justify overpaying a QB whose performance doesn't meet that price. We don't have to use other teams' unforced errors to assuage our own angst about the Giants' mistakes in the same areas.
That is absolutely true. Good teams get good by not making the same mistakes as other teams.
Only thing is signing Jones wasn't a mistake. That assessment can't be made till after this season. Saying it is -- even 853,888 times -- doesn't' change that fact.
I'm just saying that in a world where the Trevor Lawrence extension is a mistake, the DJ contract was a colossal error.
I don't think anyone could reasonably criticize the TL contract without also criticizing the DJ contract. If you want to criticize neither, that's fine. I just don't think it's logically sound to defend DJ's contract (or TL's) on the basis of, "well, everyone overpays mid-tier QBs, so there should be no criticism of any of those contracts."
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: and daniel jones is overpaid lol
I'm just saying that in a world where the Trevor Lawrence extension is a mistake, the DJ contract was a colossal error.
I don't think anyone could reasonably criticize the TL contract without also criticizing the DJ contract. If you want to criticize neither, that's fine. I just don't think it's logically sound to defend DJ's contract (or TL's) on the basis of, "well, everyone overpays mid-tier QBs, so there should be no criticism of any of those contracts."
After an 8% jump in 2023. Modest expectations seem to be in the 7-8% range but for all we know 2025 will see another double digit jump. At 10% that’s another $25m - this can very rapidly be a solid deal.
As terrible as the Kyler Murray and Deshaun Watson deals.
You don't have a top 3 QB, keep drafting kids at QB or your payment to your QB will be enormous. No matter if he's a good regular season QB or not. Curious what SF does with Purdy.
I agree with this, although I would go a little deeper than top 3. Definitely top 5 or 6 and maybe top 10. It will be a disaster for SF if they pay Purdy.
Newsflash, Garoppolo was playing in the Super Bowl as a $30 million a year QB.
Niners will be fine with Purdy making bank.
How many big second contracts have been disasters?
Jones might be the worst and right now it’s something we can work around after 2024 if needed.
There are 14 QBs making $40m or more in 2024 and Watson seems like the biggest dud but that came from a really strange, outlier scenario. You can include Murray (I think he can rebound nicely without Kingsbury) and Jones too. So 11/14 seem legit and those teams will more than likely get their moneys worth. All the titles won’t go to Mahomes either, and when they don’t, it will likely come from one of those other 13. This also doesn’t account for Tua so bump that number to 15.
Is there any possibility of adding another thread designation beyond NFT or NGT to indicate threads where Darwinian and JT039 don't clutter the whole thing with their 3rd grade level slap fight?
I think the board is well aware of the fact they both believe the other is an idiotic dupe. Not sure why it needs to be played out over and over each day to the point you can't read the thread.
Can we also get a Daniel jones thread pinned so all Daniel jones topics can be discussed there so we don’t have the first grade pissing matches every day too?
This is an excellent idea. A pinned "Daniel Jones Sucks Ass Because" thread.
Maybe also a set of Jones BB codes for the attendant logical fallacies.
except Jones has more rushing yards and rushing TDs. Left Out Rushing Yards and TDs. - ( New Window )
We should also provide a trendline for each so we can see how their respective performances started out as rookies and how much each has improved since.
If you're paying for the future, after all, the trendline should be a significant factor.
RE: RE: Lawrence and Jones Stats are Almost Identical
except Jones has more rushing yards and rushing TDs. Left Out Rushing Yards and TDs. - ( New Window )
We should also provide a trendline for each so we can see how their respective performances started out as rookies and how much each has improved since.
If you're paying for the future, after all, the trendline should be a significant factor.
A trendline that also needs to be considered is the franchise revenue trendline. Don't be narrow-minded - - these contracts are business decisions.
RE: RE: RE: Lawrence and Jones Stats are Almost Identical
except Jones has more rushing yards and rushing TDs. Left Out Rushing Yards and TDs. - ( New Window )
We should also provide a trendline for each so we can see how their respective performances started out as rookies and how much each has improved since.
If you're paying for the future, after all, the trendline should be a significant factor.
A trendline that also needs to be considered is the franchise revenue trendline. Don't be narrow-minded - - these contracts are business decisions.
This is an excellent idea. A pinned "Daniel Jones Sucks Ass Because" thread.
Maybe also a set of Jones BB codes for the attendant logical fallacies.
I hate to break this to you, but the side that is rife with logical fallacies is the one that wants to prop up Jones as a legit answer at QB. If you can keep your composure, I'd gladly hash them out with you.
I think Lawrence is really tough. He was top ten in 2022 imo, but not elite. He was very good in 2023 until he hurt his ankle. He is still a lot of potential. I think this is way too much.
I think Lawrence is really tough. He was top ten in 2022 imo, but not elite. He was very good in 2023 until he hurt his ankle. He is still a lot of potential. I think this is way too much.
the price of this deal doesn't much matter. They can always restructure and get the cap hit down. That's how it works. It's only a problem when you commit a big number to a QB who isn't good or that you don't want. There's a team that comes to mind that did this...
But if you commit to good players the cap hit on the contract is virtually meaningless.
Due to the fact most QBs can do the same thing and have similar results.
And it’s odd you call me a stalker when you replied to my post and I responded to yours. Is that how a discussion goes?
If they were easily replaceable teams would act on that premise time and time again, sort of akin to perhaps a 3rd down scat back or average starting guard.
Jfc some of act like you know more than every GM in the game today. You don’t.
Due to the fact most QBs can do the same thing and have similar results.
And it’s odd you call me a stalker when you replied to my post and I responded to yours. Is that how a discussion goes?
If they were easily replaceable teams would act on that premise time and time again, sort of akin to perhaps a 3rd down scat back or average starting guard.
Jfc some of act like you know more than every GM in the game today. You don’t.
Sometimes reading escapes you.
How many QBs in the NFL can win with a top 5 defense, a HOF head coach, a HOF kicker, multiple first round picks at WR and a dominant OL?
Serious question. I’d say maybe 25 at least? There’s only 2-3 QBs who don’t need ideal situations to be dominant and win in this league. The rest do therefore they are fungible. Do the ravens drop off with kirk cousins, stafford, love, Purdy, hurts, tua, and a whole bunch of QBs last year?
How so many here just throw the word elite around as they condemn one qb after the other and I would bet every fucking dollar I own that at least 75% of the same posters were crushing Eli Manning prior to 2008. Crushing Joe flacco prior to 2012. Weren’t even around for the Phil Simms nyg fan experience. But you just knew they’d all deliver. Sure you did. And now Lamar Jackson isn’t elite becsuse after 5-6 years he hasn’t gone buck wild in January. Give me a fucking break already.
Due to the fact most QBs can do the same thing and have similar results.
And it’s odd you call me a stalker when you replied to my post and I responded to yours. Is that how a discussion goes?
If they were easily replaceable teams would act on that premise time and time again, sort of akin to perhaps a 3rd down scat back or average starting guard.
Jfc some of act like you know more than every GM in the game today. You don’t.
Sometimes reading escapes you.
How many QBs in the NFL can win with a top 5 defense, a HOF head coach, a HOF kicker, multiple first round picks at WR and a dominant OL?
Serious question. I’d say maybe 25 at least? There’s only 2-3 QBs who don’t need ideal situations to be dominant and win in this league. The rest do therefore they are fungible. Do the ravens drop off with kirk cousins, stafford, love, Purdy, hurts, tua, and a whole bunch of QBs last year?
I doubt it.
You’re probably right but that’s not the point. Those 2-3 “transcendent” qbs? Yes those exist and that’s a fair number give or take.
How you want to define the word elite doesn’t matter. Teams are going to pay QBs that they feel can take them to postseason success. We’re gonna sit here and split her over what elite is and what elite isn’t. It’s fucking ridiculous. Teams internally scout and most of them know what the hell they’re talking about..
You want to be the GM that refuses to pay the “non-elite” QB elite money? You will never win a goddamn thing. Acknowledge that and we’re fine.
Sorry it may be an unpopular opinion. But I don’t find him elite. He’s a good-very good QB who needs ideal situations to win and struggles to throw it when it matters most.
there are 14 names on this list of passing leaders over the last 2 years combined.
3 were on what were record setting contracts prior to this time period.
7 of them have been extended by their teams in the last year. Tua is about to be come #8.
The only 3/14 players to change teams were age 32+.
Cousins (36, achilles) changed teams via FA.
Carr (32) was a cut after 2022 who then signed elsewhere. the guy who cut him got fired halfway through 2023.
Wilson first signed a record setting deal at the start of this period in DEN at age 34, then after the guy who acquired him got fired he got cut with a record amount of dead$.
QB is the most important position in all sports, teams very rarely willingly "go cheap" and almost never move on from starter level qbs under 30 off winning seasons.
Lamar
Herbert
Dak
Hurts
Stroud (I have exempted cause he was only a rookie)
TLaw
Among others can’t become elite - they certainly can. But you have to come up big in the biggest spots. Guys like Rodger’s, Brees, Stafford, Ben, Eli are known for coming up big when their teams needed them most.
That’s why players like Romo, McNabb, Ryan, Rivers - I wouldn’t consider elite either. Putting up big stats are great - but you’re remember more for the plays you made rather than what stats you put up.
Lamar, Kyler, Jones all missed enough games they dont make 2 yr list
That’s just if. You define elite after the fact. It ain’t that simple. Again, how many people here knew Eli was elite until? Or Simms. Or Flacco. Or plunkett. Or Doug Williams. Or even Stafford. Or a guy like Jimmy G who’s career tight roped and hung in the balance between good and champion on the backs of 1-2-3 Super Bowl plays? If he completes one pass and wins that game is he a better more elite player? We’re talking 1-2 moments here that determines good from champion/legend.
It’s the body of work. Its games in September and January. And whether that qb can deliver more often than not and then consider the alternative. Maybe Lamar Jackson will never shine in January but I assure you there’s a 95% chance the alternative is much much worse. You don’t like winning 11 games and playing home playoff games anymore all because Lamar isn’t Steve young in the playoffs? Go ahead and cut him. Save the money for what I don’t know. Then what?
Qbs get paid. Accept it. If you don’t want to pay a decent vet qb you’re in the wrong business. And just because a guy like Gardner minchew earning peanuts can hold the fort for months on end and maybe even approach decent stats or stats that come close to a guy like Trever Lawrence doesn’t he’s as good as Trever Lawrence or capable of the same things, especially in the biggest of moments. That’s why I go nuts every time the stats brigade come along and slam dunk a case. It’s not even close to that simple.
Qb debates will always be interesting. I appreciate the thread and debates. Enjoy the weekend.
You two!
And to be clear - I’m more along the line with your thinking of Aqaba will get paid. I think many QBs can win the SB. I just think a lot of them need ideal condition while a guy like Mahoney and Allen can win with less around them.
there are 14 names on this list of passing leaders over the last 2 years combined.
3 were on what were record setting contracts prior to this time period.
7 of them have been extended by their teams in the last year. Tua is about to be come #8.
The only 3/14 players to change teams were age 32+.
Cousins (36, achilles) changed teams via FA.
Carr (32) was a cut after 2022 who then signed elsewhere. the guy who cut him got fired halfway through 2023.
Wilson first signed a record setting deal at the start of this period in DEN at age 34, then after the guy who acquired him got fired he got cut with a record amount of dead$.
QB is the most important position in all sports, teams very rarely willingly "go cheap" and almost never move on from starter level qbs under 30 off winning seasons.
I think the board is well aware of the fact they both believe the other is an idiotic dupe. Not sure why it needs to be played out over and over each day to the point you can't read the thread.
Can we also get a Daniel jones thread pinned so all Daniel jones topics can be discussed there so we don’t have the first grade pissing matches every day too?
I think the board is well aware of the fact they both believe the other is an idiotic dupe. Not sure why it needs to be played out over and over each day to the point you can't read the thread.
I have rarely called him out and previously bent over backwards to be respectful or to avoid him. I don't appreciate being lumped in with him.
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In comment 16536614 section125 said:
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In comment 16536611 MyNameIsMyName said:
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In comment 16536531 bigbluewillrise said:
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ha
He is
Clue - most QBs are. Few deliver.
Which is why it's silly to pay the ones who probably won't deliver rather than keep swinging for one who more realistically could.
Teams seem terrified of the great unknown, that they might end up with a QB worse than the incumbent. But value for dollar, would you rather have a mediocre QB choking your cap just because he's a known quantity? Or be willing to risk that the next QB could be worse, but might also be better? Now add to that the very important (IMO) fact that the next QB, if they're on a rookie contract, will cost less than 20% of what the established-but-not-elite QB will make on a full-price second contract. It shouldn't be as difficult a decision as it is, but NFL teams are incredibly risk-averse, often to their own detriment.
Simply declaring that most QBs are overpaid, true as that might be, doesn't justify overpaying a QB whose performance doesn't meet that price. We don't have to use other teams' unforced errors to assuage our own angst about the Giants' mistakes in the same areas.
That is absolutely true. Good teams get good by not making the same mistakes as other teams.
Only thing is signing Jones wasn't a mistake. That assessment can't be made till after this season. Saying it is -- even 853,888 times -- doesn't' change that fact.
I'm just saying that in a world where the Trevor Lawrence extension is a mistake, the DJ contract was a colossal error.
I don't think anyone could reasonably criticize the TL contract without also criticizing the DJ contract. If you want to criticize neither, that's fine. I just don't think it's logically sound to defend DJ's contract (or TL's) on the basis of, "well, everyone overpays mid-tier QBs, so there should be no criticism of any of those contracts."
I'm just saying that in a world where the Trevor Lawrence extension is a mistake, the DJ contract was a colossal error.
I don't think anyone could reasonably criticize the TL contract without also criticizing the DJ contract. If you want to criticize neither, that's fine. I just don't think it's logically sound to defend DJ's contract (or TL's) on the basis of, "well, everyone overpays mid-tier QBs, so there should be no criticism of any of those contracts."
This is absolutely correct.
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As terrible as the Kyler Murray and Deshaun Watson deals.
You don't have a top 3 QB, keep drafting kids at QB or your payment to your QB will be enormous. No matter if he's a good regular season QB or not. Curious what SF does with Purdy.
I agree with this, although I would go a little deeper than top 3. Definitely top 5 or 6 and maybe top 10. It will be a disaster for SF if they pay Purdy.
Newsflash, Garoppolo was playing in the Super Bowl as a $30 million a year QB.
Niners will be fine with Purdy making bank.
There are 14 QBs making $40m or more in 2024 and Watson seems like the biggest dud but that came from a really strange, outlier scenario. You can include Murray (I think he can rebound nicely without Kingsbury) and Jones too. So 11/14 seem legit and those teams will more than likely get their moneys worth. All the titles won’t go to Mahomes either, and when they don’t, it will likely come from one of those other 13. This also doesn’t account for Tua so bump that number to 15.
Left Out Rushing Yards and TDs. - ( New Window )
Quote:
Is there any possibility of adding another thread designation beyond NFT or NGT to indicate threads where Darwinian and JT039 don't clutter the whole thing with their 3rd grade level slap fight?
I think the board is well aware of the fact they both believe the other is an idiotic dupe. Not sure why it needs to be played out over and over each day to the point you can't read the thread.
Can we also get a Daniel jones thread pinned so all Daniel jones topics can be discussed there so we don’t have the first grade pissing matches every day too?
This is an excellent idea. A pinned "Daniel Jones Sucks Ass Because" thread.
Maybe also a set of Jones BB codes for the attendant logical fallacies.
We should also provide a trendline for each so we can see how their respective performances started out as rookies and how much each has improved since.
If you're paying for the future, after all, the trendline should be a significant factor.
Quote:
except Jones has more rushing yards and rushing TDs. Left Out Rushing Yards and TDs. - ( New Window )
We should also provide a trendline for each so we can see how their respective performances started out as rookies and how much each has improved since.
If you're paying for the future, after all, the trendline should be a significant factor.
A trendline that also needs to be considered is the franchise revenue trendline. Don't be narrow-minded - - these contracts are business decisions.
Quote:
In comment 16537107 clatterbuck said:
Quote:
except Jones has more rushing yards and rushing TDs. Left Out Rushing Yards and TDs. - ( New Window )
We should also provide a trendline for each so we can see how their respective performances started out as rookies and how much each has improved since.
If you're paying for the future, after all, the trendline should be a significant factor.
A trendline that also needs to be considered is the franchise revenue trendline. Don't be narrow-minded - - these contracts are business decisions.
DJ has a negative ROAS.
This is an excellent idea. A pinned "Daniel Jones Sucks Ass Because" thread.
Maybe also a set of Jones BB codes for the attendant logical fallacies.
I hate to break this to you, but the side that is rife with logical fallacies is the one that wants to prop up Jones as a legit answer at QB. If you can keep your composure, I'd gladly hash them out with you.
But if you commit to good players the cap hit on the contract is virtually meaningless.
And it’s odd you call me a stalker when you replied to my post and I responded to yours. Is that how a discussion goes?
If they were easily replaceable teams would act on that premise time and time again, sort of akin to perhaps a 3rd down scat back or average starting guard.
Jfc some of act like you know more than every GM in the game today. You don’t.
Quote:
Due to the fact most QBs can do the same thing and have similar results.
And it’s odd you call me a stalker when you replied to my post and I responded to yours. Is that how a discussion goes?
If they were easily replaceable teams would act on that premise time and time again, sort of akin to perhaps a 3rd down scat back or average starting guard.
Jfc some of act like you know more than every GM in the game today. You don’t.
Sometimes reading escapes you.
How many QBs in the NFL can win with a top 5 defense, a HOF head coach, a HOF kicker, multiple first round picks at WR and a dominant OL?
Serious question. I’d say maybe 25 at least? There’s only 2-3 QBs who don’t need ideal situations to be dominant and win in this league. The rest do therefore they are fungible. Do the ravens drop off with kirk cousins, stafford, love, Purdy, hurts, tua, and a whole bunch of QBs last year?
I doubt it.
Quote:
In comment 16536930 JT039 said:
Quote:
Due to the fact most QBs can do the same thing and have similar results.
And it’s odd you call me a stalker when you replied to my post and I responded to yours. Is that how a discussion goes?
If they were easily replaceable teams would act on that premise time and time again, sort of akin to perhaps a 3rd down scat back or average starting guard.
Jfc some of act like you know more than every GM in the game today. You don’t.
Sometimes reading escapes you.
How many QBs in the NFL can win with a top 5 defense, a HOF head coach, a HOF kicker, multiple first round picks at WR and a dominant OL?
Serious question. I’d say maybe 25 at least? There’s only 2-3 QBs who don’t need ideal situations to be dominant and win in this league. The rest do therefore they are fungible. Do the ravens drop off with kirk cousins, stafford, love, Purdy, hurts, tua, and a whole bunch of QBs last year?
I doubt it.
You’re probably right but that’s not the point. Those 2-3 “transcendent” qbs? Yes those exist and that’s a fair number give or take.
How you want to define the word elite doesn’t matter. Teams are going to pay QBs that they feel can take them to postseason success. We’re gonna sit here and split her over what elite is and what elite isn’t. It’s fucking ridiculous. Teams internally scout and most of them know what the hell they’re talking about..
You want to be the GM that refuses to pay the “non-elite” QB elite money? You will never win a goddamn thing. Acknowledge that and we’re fine.
Doubt it’s very many.
3 were on what were record setting contracts prior to this time period.
7 of them have been extended by their teams in the last year. Tua is about to be come #8.
The only 3/14 players to change teams were age 32+.
Cousins (36, achilles) changed teams via FA.
Carr (32) was a cut after 2022 who then signed elsewhere. the guy who cut him got fired halfway through 2023.
Wilson first signed a record setting deal at the start of this period in DEN at age 34, then after the guy who acquired him got fired he got cut with a record amount of dead$.
QB is the most important position in all sports, teams very rarely willingly "go cheap" and almost never move on from starter level qbs under 30 off winning seasons.
Herbert
Dak
Hurts
Stroud (I have exempted cause he was only a rookie)
TLaw
Among others can’t become elite - they certainly can. But you have to come up big in the biggest spots. Guys like Rodger’s, Brees, Stafford, Ben, Eli are known for coming up big when their teams needed them most.
That’s why players like Romo, McNabb, Ryan, Rivers - I wouldn’t consider elite either. Putting up big stats are great - but you’re remember more for the plays you made rather than what stats you put up.
11/14 QBs who got new contracts 28/under did so with their current team.
1/14 didn't (cousins)
the other 2 were russell wilson/derek carr who got a huge contracts but then later got cut with regime changes.
watson is another one but he had come off the suspension so he hadnt played and then he's been injured/bad since so he's in his own category of weird.
rogers another weird one who got extended at record AAV 2 years ago but then traded 1 year ago.
more than half of the league having made these QB decisions in the last 2 offseasons seems like a pretty substantial sample size.
Doubt it’s very many.
That’s just if. You define elite after the fact. It ain’t that simple. Again, how many people here knew Eli was elite until? Or Simms. Or Flacco. Or plunkett. Or Doug Williams. Or even Stafford. Or a guy like Jimmy G who’s career tight roped and hung in the balance between good and champion on the backs of 1-2-3 Super Bowl plays? If he completes one pass and wins that game is he a better more elite player? We’re talking 1-2 moments here that determines good from champion/legend.
It’s the body of work. Its games in September and January. And whether that qb can deliver more often than not and then consider the alternative. Maybe Lamar Jackson will never shine in January but I assure you there’s a 95% chance the alternative is much much worse. You don’t like winning 11 games and playing home playoff games anymore all because Lamar isn’t Steve young in the playoffs? Go ahead and cut him. Save the money for what I don’t know. Then what?
Qbs get paid. Accept it. If you don’t want to pay a decent vet qb you’re in the wrong business. And just because a guy like Gardner minchew earning peanuts can hold the fort for months on end and maybe even approach decent stats or stats that come close to a guy like Trever Lawrence doesn’t he’s as good as Trever Lawrence or capable of the same things, especially in the biggest of moments. That’s why I go nuts every time the stats brigade come along and slam dunk a case. It’s not even close to that simple.
You two!
And to be clear - I’m more along the line with your thinking of Aqaba will get paid. I think many QBs can win the SB. I just think a lot of them need ideal condition while a guy like Mahoney and Allen can win with less around them.
3 were on what were record setting contracts prior to this time period.
7 of them have been extended by their teams in the last year. Tua is about to be come #8.
The only 3/14 players to change teams were age 32+.
Cousins (36, achilles) changed teams via FA.
Carr (32) was a cut after 2022 who then signed elsewhere. the guy who cut him got fired halfway through 2023.
Wilson first signed a record setting deal at the start of this period in DEN at age 34, then after the guy who acquired him got fired he got cut with a record amount of dead$.
QB is the most important position in all sports, teams very rarely willingly "go cheap" and almost never move on from starter level qbs under 30 off winning seasons.
Fascinating. Thanks.