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| Art Stapleton @art_stapleton Truth 💣: Getting to 6 wins with last year’s team and everything that went wrong was almost as impressive from a head coaching perspective as 9 wins + a playoff win in Year 1. You don’t thrive in this league as a coach with too many like last season, but that ability to navigate the 💩 shows you might have what it takes to survive. Daboll won’t be celebrated for 2023, nor should he be, but there is reason to buy into what I stated above. |
The problem is always when the games start
Team not quitting is probably the lowest bar possible.
The problem is always when the games start
Team not quitting is probably the lowest bar possible.
True. It is the lowest bar, but it's a bar that sends coaches packing. I'd rather be here than see the team quit last season.
Nothing is guaranteed and I sure as hell won't bet any over unders, I never do. We will see.
The problem is always when the games start
Team not quitting is probably the lowest bar possible.
Many would say it's the highest.
Let's face it-- if the OL sucks this year Jones or Lock is still going to be bad regardless of Nabers. The QB's are highly dependent upon the OL. If the OL sucks it stands to reason the QB's will suck which means the Giants are going to suck. In this case, why wouldn't we realize that at least one of the 2 are Clowns? Especially if any of the QB's they recently passed on turn out to be very good. Then The Clowns can't be dumped soon enough.
If the OL is decent - there is a possibility that Jones can be decent which means mediocrity. In this case The Coach and GM will have to "settle" and pretend like its good UNLESS in a short t8ime thereafter they can turn their Trenches into a state of dominance.
OFC if the OL is good or better - then the better the QB might be in which evaluating FO and Coach they would have done well. Long term positive.
I lean toward they are blundering with excessive hubris due to year 1. Not writing them off - far from it. Eventual Trench improvement is always a possibility.
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1) Daboll made some mistakes last year related to training camp and the Oline shuffling that should not be repeated this year.
2) He has done a lot well and deserves some praise for what he did well last year - keeping the team competitive with the backup/3rd string QB playing
I think Daboll is a good coach, but he is still growing into the job. He deserves more time.
Completely reasonable take, but one slight issue I'd have is with the idea that Daboll deserves anything. I have no doubt the Giants feel the same way, but in a perfect world they would think less about what someone deserves and more about how the team can be improved.
I personally think Vrabel and Belichick are better head coach options right now than Daboll. Daboll definitely does not deserve to be fired, but I'd have done it anyway if I knew I could hire one of Belichick, Vrabel, or Harbaugh in his stead.
You constantly pretending that you’d be some iron fisted, stone cold assassin if you ran a team is one of the most entertaining parts of BBI. Works for your Madden franchise, right? Haha, you are awesome
The problem is always when the games start
Team not quitting is probably the lowest bar possible.
Belichick is 84-103 without Brady. Numbers are numbers.
For as much as you referenced Jones numbers, the fact Daboll won a playoff game with him should warrant a parade based on what you think of Jones.
It will always be about the QB.
I personally think Vrabel and Belichick are better head coach options right now than Daboll. Daboll definitely does not deserve to be fired, but I'd have done it anyway if I knew I could hire one of Belichick, Vrabel, or Harbaugh in his stead.
LOL, what nonsense. Earlier in the thread, you said this:
So you admit you have no fucking clue if what happened in Tenn was his fault, and yet you're willing to hire him to replace Daboll? Here's an idea - why don't you do some research as to what went wrong before hiring the guy who was the head coach of a shitty team?!
Just spitballin' here....
This seems like it has attained myth status at this point. The only real movement with the starters was Bredeson taking some starting reps over rookie JMS. They shuffled the backups like McKethan and Phillips, and like I said Bredeson got center time since he was learning, but the starting group was clear. Cutting Phillips was a mistake (kept Lemieux). Having to pull Pugh off the couch was a problem. Benching Glowinski, losing Thomas and Evans and JMS is exactly what they didn't want. A lot of that was completely out of Daboll's hand.
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The spin machine is always on full blast In the summer
The problem is always when the games start
Team not quitting is probably the lowest bar possible.
Belichick is 84-103 without Brady. Numbers are numbers.
How many NBA championships did Jordan win without Phil Jackson?
How many did Pippen win?
How many Finals did either of them go to without Phil?
If Jimmy G can get to Super Bowl and almost win/almost beat KC - there can be be another way with a very well coached team.
FYI - the season is 17 games nowadays.
I'm hoping he learns from both of these categories of mistakes and corrects going forward.
And I noted & others have too...he wasn't good in '23. But I'll still confident in him going forward. I'm hoping he learns from his mistakes & improves going forward.
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FYI - the season is 17 games nowadays.
And teams that start 2-8 will always have seasons that end after 17 games
And I noted & others have too...he wasn't good in '23. But I'll still confident in him going forward. I'm hoping he learns from his mistakes & improves going forward.
You of all people are "confident" in him? Not meant as an insult. But up until this year hasn't the OL been pathetic? We kind of expect the OL will be "oaky" this year but are you that certain especially regarding Neal and JMS? With JMS in regard to his injury and afterwards he sucked-- haven't we seen this movie before? Not saying he's gonna suck but far from certain what he is.
And the QB - we both feel he should have been gone, right? And/or taken a QB, right? Why would you think that? Because you know he's not good-- or with me I think he is average but the risk with injury- it's reckless they go with him without a suitable sub.
There is hope to build Trenches maybe - but right now at this moment what does the future look like going into year 3? A mediocre OL and a sub-par QB. That's good? Not looking to win right away but isn't there also a huge fear of remain mediocre for this year and going forward?
That is in part on The GM and The Coach, isn't it?
Well - I am skeptical - not saying dump him like I used to say with DG.
But a coach that has shown nothing for his OL and is oblivious with QB play - doesn't sound so hot.
Team totally and unequivocally unprepared for game one.
Very suspect short yardage gambling.
Sticking with an injured Place kicker way to long.
Play calling in red zone was terrible.
Almost the entire Jet's game.
Three years is fair to both parties.Let's see.
He also needs to make much better personnel decisions. As mentioned above, things like keeping Shepard around and putting guys who had never returned punts at punt returner all felt like rookie coaching mistakes. He is also accountable for the lack of progress of many of the Olinemen. Poor positional coaching falls back on the HC.
I think Daboll is a good offensive minded guy and I think he has the team bought in. But year 3 needs to include some improvement from year 2.
The one glaring issue on the offense right now is RT. He (and to a degree) and Bricillo need to get that right.
on defense winks unorthodox style created some key end of game plays that turned games (lamar's fumble, rodgers batted passes). all those breaks went their way in the first half.
things got more complex as the season went along in 2022 and the team played better as it got more confident, even though the record didnt reflect that. but momentum obviously didn't carry over. some combination of bad decisions, wrong people in key spots, bad mojo, bad luck, all the above. they replaced a few smart/tough/dependables with undependables (campbell, waller, unsettled interior OL, thomas hurt right away, etc).
if you see what Houston is doing this offseason, it's a pretty well accepted thing that to not regress after a surprising year 1 you need to really up the talent quotient. the NYG tried that but failed. sophomore slumps are a thing bc it is hard to win in pro sports, and harder yet to do it twice in a row.
this year is the 2nd chance and it appears that they have made a lot of adjustments. new playcallers in all 3 phases and a lot of veterans gone. in the last 2 years/3 offseasons this regime has not only hand selected all the players but lived through what worked and what didnt. either they effectively learned from all of that and made good choices this year or they didnt.
Every position group was worse YoY on the offensive side of the ball. Consistency in performance is a combination of health, development, and talent infusion. The Giants get low marks on all three.
No one was healthier, no one meaningfully developed, and none of the acquisitions were better than their predecessor.
Every position group was worse YoY on the offensive side of the ball. Consistency in performance is a combination of health, development, and talent infusion. The Giants get low marks on all three.
No one was healthier, no one meaningfully developed, and none of the acquisitions were better than their predecessor.
they not only failed to meaningfully increase the talent on offense, but they played a more high risk style that led to more self inflicted mistakes.
think about dallas drive 1, they went down the field with all barkley runs (very first half 2022). would have been red zone with an easier fg or a continued drive but had an OL penalty. Instead of making their kick like Gano did all of 22, they have the block and put themselves way behind 8 ball losing Thomas in process derailing the first 1/2 of the season(he returned week 9). they were 4-5 after his return, and 4-4 in games he finished (he left both dallas games early).
i think by accident just based on the nature of being in year 1 and having crappy receivers like david sills starting, they ended up giving themselves an advantage by playing so vanilla early in 2022. the other teams made mistakes that cost them games. special teams was also a huge positive factor, in TEN they had a rookie returner fumble and the missed kick. 2 very different week 1 outcomes even though they were shut out at halftime in both of them (13-0 in 22, 26-0 in 23).
with Sam Darnold (or JJM), Jayden Daniels, Deshaun Watson the first 3 QBs this year, it probably makes sense to start vanilla again to build momentum. Not too hard to foresee those guys making mistakes - especially if NYG pass rush can get home. Singletary probably cant do what Barkley did but there are probably some vanilla ways to get ball in hands of Nabers/Robinson. Hopefully get some momentum then start taking training wheels off.
He seems to want to play the air it out game. I hope he does a better job preparing the team to be better at running. They need much better running from the RB's (especially with Jones injury situation) this year to help keep the D honest. That will also open things up in the pass game. All the back up RB's finished below 3.0 ypc.
Cant's have running games like SF, Miami and Seattle again.
Every position group was worse YoY on the offensive side of the ball. Consistency in performance is a combination of health, development, and talent infusion. The Giants get low marks on all three.
No one was healthier, no one meaningfully developed, and none of the acquisitions were better than their predecessor.
they not only failed to meaningfully increase the talent on offense, but they played a more high risk style that led to more self inflicted mistakes.
I think the risk profile in some respects is proportional to the talent ratio.
Take the AZ game, where the talent ratio between NYG and Cardinals was pretty equal. And the Giants averaged 9.4 IA/A, which didn't feel risky.
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Eric, you hit on an excellent point, that's worth repeating relentlessly. The Giants tried and failed to increase talent, especially on the offensive side of the ball.
Every position group was worse YoY on the offensive side of the ball. Consistency in performance is a combination of health, development, and talent infusion. The Giants get low marks on all three.
No one was healthier, no one meaningfully developed, and none of the acquisitions were better than their predecessor.
they not only failed to meaningfully increase the talent on offense, but they played a more high risk style that led to more self inflicted mistakes.
I think the risk profile in some respects is proportional to the talent ratio.
Take the AZ game, where the talent ratio between NYG and Cardinals was pretty equal. And the Giants averaged 9.4 IA/A, which didn't feel risky.
they were down 20-0 at half time. the first offensive play of the game was a false start on ezeudu out of shotgun. jones was 3/3 on that drive but only got 13/15 yards so they punted.
on a quick count barkley only had 6 carries in the first half and almost twice as many 2nd half. the adjustments they made to win the game in the 2nd half included both shutting down dobbs and a more balanced approach that led to run all over the cardinals defense (they had only 25 rushing yards in the first half).
barkley also had 6 receptions on 7 targets for 29 yards including that highlight 3rd down td, so his ability to keep the chains moving with those 23 touches was likely the biggest factor on that game.
i didnt count every play in the 2nd half because there were more than the 1st half, but im pretty sure these rushing totals minus the first half run/pass spread means they had a much more balanced run/pass approach in the 2nd half.
Cards were a favorable matchup OL/DL wise. Hopefully that battle tilts in favor towards the Giants more this season.
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In comment 16537028 Mike from Ohio said:
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1) Daboll made some mistakes last year related to training camp and the Oline shuffling that should not be repeated this year.
2) He has done a lot well and deserves some praise for what he did well last year - keeping the team competitive with the backup/3rd string QB playing
I think Daboll is a good coach, but he is still growing into the job. He deserves more time.
Completely reasonable take, but one slight issue I'd have is with the idea that Daboll deserves anything. I have no doubt the Giants feel the same way, but in a perfect world they would think less about what someone deserves and more about how the team can be improved.
I personally think Vrabel and Belichick are better head coach options right now than Daboll. Daboll definitely does not deserve to be fired, but I'd have done it anyway if I knew I could hire one of Belichick, Vrabel, or Harbaugh in his stead.
I think that's fair although I may pushback on Vrabel. I'd have a tough time firing him after last year. "Deserves" is the wrong word, but I think he's someone who can be part of the solution here.
I have no interest in moving off Daboll for someone like Ben Johnson though. It would have to be Belichick and it would be a 3-4 year window of just getting back to respectability. I don't care about his age.
Forget Belichick. He's to old for a rebuild and too busy banging a 24 year old woman.
No interest in Belichick - as others have said he is way too old for where this roster is and his last several years in NE are not particularly inspiring. Vrabel I do think is a great coach but unless this year goes really south I would rather see what Daboll can do with an improving roster than hit reset again for him. Same thing with any current OC/DCs.
Balance isn't necessarily a measure of risk vs. safety. What a team does with their passes is the risk (a 20 yard pass in the air is more of a risk than 3 yards) Yes, the Giants were more balanced in the 2H. Excluding sacks by half:
1H Total Plays: 24
1H Rushes: 9-31-3.4
1H Passes: 15-56-3.7
2H Total Plays: 41
2H Rushes: 20-102-5.1
2H Passes: 21-250-12
But the Giants had 14 pass completions of 10+ yards in the second half. They aired it out, and simply just functioned much better as offense, on the ground and in the air. Half vs. half, the number that sticks out is the 4X increase in YPR.
The Giants starter averaged +9 IAY/PA in 4 games last year: Arizona, Washington, Washington, and the finale vs. Philly.
There's nothing surprising by that -- against the 2 worst defenses (and presumably least talented) the Giants took deeper shots. The Philly game we can throw out, it was a "fuck it, just throw the ball" game for the Giants.
High carries/ypc you are sitting in a great spot. It's clear when you look at the game in wins/losses (percentages) and QB performance. Down/distance, keeping r/p option in play, pass protection, etc. all benefit.
Run the ball/stop the run is about as basic as it gets in football for good reason. Historically, more critical in the NFC imv.
Eric made the statement that the Giants played a higher risk style of football, and we're debating what constitutes risk.
Do you have an opinion on the actual subject being debated?
High carries/ypc you are sitting in a great spot. It's clear when you look at the game in wins/losses (percentages) and QB performance. Down/distance, keeping r/p option in play, pass protection, etc. all benefit.
Run the ball/stop the run is about as basic as it gets in football for good reason. Historically, more critical in the NFC imv.
I have also heard that having a competent FG Kicker, knowing when to utilize time-outs and getting guys lined up on the LoS promptly all are valuable parts of the game too.
Properly scheduling flight or bus times for away games probably should be on that list too. Can't get more critical than that.
Properly scheduling flight or bus times for away games probably should be on that list too. Can't get more critical than that.
I'd add shoes, human beings, and oxygen.
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christian : 2/27/2024 10:49 am : link
I view college for my son like any other commercial purchase. He's a great kid, works hard, and I want the best for him. But when the time comes to get his first car, he's getting the Volvo, not a new Ferrari. We can't afford a Ferrari. Mind you, my son is 2.
For someone not interested in my stories, it's strange that you repeat them daily. You talk about my personal success more than my mom.
Wait, is that you Mom?
On a serious note, in addition to data scientists, I'm always looking for PR people to help with the consultancy. You have my contact, shoot a me message.
I don't align myself with people who have red flags so don't ask me again. More red flags tend to follow. Thank you.
I'm not sure what you're talking about, but again, I appreciate you retelling my successes repeatedly. We all know I am a bit of a narcissist, but even I'm getting a little embarrassed at this point.
I'm not sure what kind of car my kid will inherit has to do with a thread on Brian Daboll, but all press is good press as they say.
Here's what I recommend: you keep talking about me and my personal life on every thread and I'll send you a Edible Arrangement shaped as a pom pom, for my little favorite cheerleader. Fair?
I have a lot more concerns and worries with Schoen.
Anyway, I don't find someone retired and not being able to afford a Ferrari impressive (being kind). Tell your story to someone else and not me directly moving forward. Don't tell me to look at your background again. It's creepy. Thanks.
I genuinely appreciate all of the attention you pay me. It's flattering.
For example, in this thread, where you so kindly retrieved this quote from me.
Now, I have no idea what it had to do with this thread and a debate on the risk profile of play calling. But I appreciate the portion of your mind I occupy. Kind of random, but I like it.
Look, you're a data savant, and I was just showing you I was serious that I could help you land a gig in the applied data fields.
But alas even the data scientists I know who've retired can't afford Ferraris, so it's probably a little low paying of a field for you.
Now what is a little creepy is you digging out a quote from a thread that wasn't remotely addressing you, directed at you, or involving you. And you perceiving the story was for you. Obsessed much?
Quote from thread not about you, XoXo - ( New Window )
You just confirmed confirmed what I already knew on that thread. One big story teller. Fugazi.
I just never said anything to you and now I have.
That is some next level analysis. I truly do wish the faits had conspired and you could've worked for me. To watch your mind work would have been something to marvel at.
Never change pumpkin. I'm here 24-7. I've got the time. If you can hunt down some other quotes not directed at you and have nothing to do with the topic, bring them on!
At some point, coaches need to be given a chance here. Everyone loves Vrabel, well why is he 13-21 in his last two seasons?
This is a forum with many people who elevate the significance of Jones' one winning season that featured a playoff win over the Vikings, so surely they can all ignore Vrabel's past two years in favor of his successful years prior to them.
if you see what Houston is doing this offseason, it's a pretty well accepted thing that to not regress after a surprising year 1 you need to really up the talent quotient. the NYG tried that but failed. sophomore slumps are a thing bc it is hard to win in pro sports, and harder yet to do it twice in a row.
this year is the 2nd chance and it appears that they have made a lot of adjustments. new playcallers in all 3 phases and a lot of veterans gone. in the last 2 years/3 offseasons this regime has not only hand selected all the players but lived through what worked and what didnt. either they effectively learned from all of that and made good choices this year or they didnt.
Houston and Giants were in much diferent situation. They have a superstar probale QB that fits the style that wins mostly in the NFL.
The Giants shouldn't get a pass because they were stupid with their 2nd year assessment. It's their job to be right especially with the way they won which was more running and so many tight games. Part of being good is understanding / self-aware what your team is.
Please let's stop giving them excuses. They were stupid year 2. Comparing them ot Houston is apples to oranges and just more excuse making.