Okay, so to avoid having this thread devolve into the same old Daniel Jones disagreements, I want to frame this question as a hypothetical: let's say you have a QB who you believe is plenty good enough to win a Super Bowl under the right circumstances. Maybe he's not a top 3 QB who can carry an offense on his back, but he's in the conversation for top 10, and he's easily in the top 15. Unfortunately his injury history is dubious at best. How do you approach the backup QB position under this scenario when it comes to free agency and the draft? How much is too much to spend in free agency on your backup QB? What slot in the draft is too early to spend on a QB if there's an equivalently graded prospect at a position of need: top 5? top 15? top 30? top 60? top 100? top 150? top 200?
p.s.--I'm not saying I view Jones as "in the conversation for top 10 and easily in the top 15" but it's possible he can be viewed that way if he is coming off a career year in 2024 and takes the Giants deep into the playoffs. For those of you who see that as an impossibility, please treat this question as a hypothetical and refer to the QB as QBYCWW (QB You Can Win With) so as not to let this thread turn into the same old same old, because it's a decent philosophical question and one that the Falcons faced when they decided to draft Penix (a decision which I wholeheartedly supported).
Quite the hypothetical.
Maybe in the future, but not this year.
Or to keep it hypothetical, if you think you have the ability to compete in the present, you prioritize that.
Sure it would be nice to improve the most important position on the team, but the bottom line is winning in the here and now (which the OP said you're already capable of doing with the assets in hand).
It is a very low probability you will win a championship with that QB and you need to keep looking to upgrade the position.
2-3
180 passes
64.4%
1343 yds
5 TDs
3 INTs
DeVito
3-3
179 passes
64.0%
1101 yds
8 TDs
3 INts
Jones
1-5
160 passes
67.5%
909 yds
2 INts
With a similar amount of games on our own team; Jones had the worst record, least yards, least TDs and most INTS
Taylor 38 attempts 197 rush yds
DeVito 36 attempts 195 rush yds 1 TD
Top QBs do exactly that, they inspire their teammates, they make them better and they win. Sorta like Jalen Brunson on the Knicks. They don't need the perfect storm to excel and win. Winning players make winning plays no matter the circumstances
The hypothetical should not be about the QB. First think of the Giants Super Bowl winning TEAM, and then think of Hoss.
That is quite literally the single most delusional statement that I've ever read on a sports forum.
Daniel Jones has played in 5 seasons. He didn't finish two of them. He played to the end of three of them.
So, Jack believes Daniel Jones (Daniel Jones!, of all of the QBs in the modern Super Bowl era) would be the one QB to win every single Super Bowl (that's 100% of them, Jack) in years that he plays to the end of the season.
A QB who needs to be in the right situation to have success is more like a fringe top 20 QB. You are basically hoping everything breaks right regarding injuries, game luck, etc to have success. Really bad strategy to plan around.
A QB who needs to be in the right situation to have success is more like a fringe top 20 QB. You are basically hoping everything breaks right regarding injuries, game luck, etc to have success. Really bad strategy to plan around.
DJ can be borderline top 10, but can't win without help, and is hurt a lot. Others disagree that is fine.
How to approach:
1). No pick is too high, and pay any reasonable cost, to find a QB you think can be the reason you win instead of a QBYCWW. Pay a very high price for a QB you think can be borderline top 10 but without the injury baggage.
2). You should put very few assets into your backup QB unless
A). You are near SB ready with just a QBYCWW or worse (i.e. philly, SF) and you want a QB to keep you in the hunt while your #1 heals.
B). You are paying a relatively high price for a #2 who is in the same range as you number one - i.e. a rehab project who could become a QBYCWW.
IOW, should your starting QB go down with an injury, but your team is rock solid everywhere, so you're a contender, I feel like you should invest in a good backup QB who can win games. not just one who take a snap and hand the ball off without tripping.
If you are not really a contender and you are self-aware as a team to recognize that, then investment in backup QB is wasted cap dollars and unwarranted. Your backup QB in this case should or could be developmental or a journeyman. Use that money elsewhere or better yet don't spend it, roll it over to use when adding a player or adding a different/better player helps a contender.
You also tank until you're able to get an elite QB, knowing as an NFL HC/GM you get unlimited job security.
Get with the times, bro.
Quote:
They elevate the team around them.
A QB who needs to be in the right situation to have success is more like a fringe top 20 QB. You are basically hoping everything breaks right regarding injuries, game luck, etc to have success. Really bad strategy to plan around.
The premise isn't flawed, your interpretation of it is. Even Patrick Mahomes need the right situation to have success, it's just that some QB's need more to be right than others. There's no need to be a dick about it, just answer the question or don't answer it.
The premise is flawed if the right situation is not, or cannot be, defined. Just define it, Milton. And, some QBs needing more to be right than others, is not a definition.
You also keep winning between 4 and 6 games each season until you can add 8 Pro Bowl players to put around that QB you keep trying to convince yourself is the guy and just keep cycling though an endless amount of coaches, player and GMs until you find the one that unlock the enormous talent in this QB.
Get with the times, bro.
I'd argue Brock Purdy and Jared Goff are in this category. Those teams have to pay them.
If you do not have a contender, you should minimize the investment. Geno and Baker are probably more 'top 20' than top 15, but those teams did what they should: provide what is essentially a one year deal with a team option for another year or two.
You also tank until you're able to get an elite QB, knowing as an NFL HC/GM you get unlimited job security.
Get with the times, bro.
Wanting to move on after 5 years and 60 starts is "cycling through QBs"?
Quote:
They elevate the team around them.
A QB who needs to be in the right situation to have success is more like a fringe top 20 QB. You are basically hoping everything breaks right regarding injuries, game luck, etc to have success. Really bad strategy to plan around.
The premise isn't flawed, your interpretation of it is. Even Patrick Mahomes need the right situation to have success, it's just that some QB's need more to be right than others. There's no need to be a dick about it, just answer the question or don't answer it.
I'm not being a dick. I don't agree that a fringe top 10 guy needs a 'perfect' situation. Patrick Mahomes makes his teammates better. He didn't need certain pieces around him to have success. Look at a guy like Hardman who sucked on the Jets and then goes back to the Chiefs to become relevant gain.
If you are arguing that Mahomes wouldn't have success on a different team and without Andy Reid, well that's impossible to answer. It's like Brady and BB.
But either way, guys like Brady and Mahomes can make their own success by elevating the team around them. And the same can be said about most top 10 QBs. That's why I think your premise is flawed. If you have a QB who needs the right pieces in place, they aren't a top 10 QB.
Rodgers
Herbert
Allen
Burrows
Jackson
Hurts
Prescott
Stafford
Stroud
Fringe- Lawrence, Purdy, Cousins, Tua, Murray,Love
Would you be moving on from all of these QBs?
In that case I would go all in to get a very good backup QB since the QB the OP references "injury prone."
Unforttubnaltey, this siituation of a contender does not fit the Giants.
This is his last chance or we are moving on. 2025 is about contending
Rodgers
Herbert
Allen
Burrows
Jackson
Hurts
Prescott
Stafford
Stroud
Fringe- Lawrence, Purdy, Cousins, Tua, Murray,Love
Would you be moving on from all of these QBs?
Jones isnt close to any of those players. Nor is he Baker, Goff, Watson, or Carr
The other teams are all with young QBs trying to make it - Levis, Richardson, Young, Caleb, McCarthy, Nix, Daniels, Maye, O’ Connell
The only other teams stuck in our range have Geno and Wilson/Fields. I don’t think Jones is better than either of them as well.
As a Cowboys fan, I'm sure you'd have a very good sense of how DJ would do there, which is why you're so enthusiastic about DJ remaining the Giants QB.
Quote:
Mahomes
Rodgers
Herbert
Allen
Burrows
Jackson
Hurts
Prescott
Stafford
Stroud
Fringe- Lawrence, Purdy, Cousins, Tua, Murray,Love
Would you be moving on from all of these QBs?
Jones isnt close to any of those players. Nor is he Baker, Goff, Watson, or Carr
The other teams are all with young QBs trying to make it - Levis, Richardson, Young, Caleb, McCarthy, Nix, Daniels, Maye, O’ Connell
The only other teams stuck in our range have Geno and Wilson/Fields. I don’t think Jones is better than either of them as well.
Thanks for missing my point but also helping to make it. I was not comparing Jones to anyone. My post was to about Jones. Several people were saying you can't win with a fringe top 10 QB and you should prioritize QB unless you have top 10 or better. You just added Goff and a bunch of others to my list.
I think every team would like a top 10 qb. I think you can win consistently with a top 15 qb and a good roster. You can win consistently with a top 20 qb and a great roster.
My approach would be to improve at qb when you can do it without compromising your ability to build your roster. I believe Jones can be a top 20 qb and am glad the Giants did not pass on Nabers to draft a qb. I also think they should continue to look for ways they can improve at qb. btw Nabers and a better OL are two of those ways.
Quote:
In comment 16537827 Reale01 said:
Quote:
Mahomes
Rodgers
Herbert
Allen
Burrows
Jackson
Hurts
Prescott
Stafford
Stroud
Fringe- Lawrence, Purdy, Cousins, Tua, Murray,Love
Would you be moving on from all of these QBs?
Jones isnt close to any of those players. Nor is he Baker, Goff, Watson, or Carr
The other teams are all with young QBs trying to make it - Levis, Richardson, Young, Caleb, McCarthy, Nix, Daniels, Maye, O’ Connell
The only other teams stuck in our range have Geno and Wilson/Fields. I don’t think Jones is better than either of them as well.
Thanks for missing my point but also helping to make it. I was not comparing Jones to anyone. My post was to about Jones. Several people were saying you can't win with a fringe top 10 QB and you should prioritize QB unless you have top 10 or better. You just added Goff and a bunch of others to my list.
I think every team would like a top 10 qb. I think you can win consistently with a top 15 qb and a good roster. You can win consistently with a top 20 qb and a great roster.
My approach would be to improve at qb when you can do it without compromising your ability to build your roster. I believe Jones can be a top 20 qb and am glad the Giants did not pass on Nabers to draft a qb. I also think they should continue to look for ways they can improve at qb. btw Nabers and a better OL are two of those ways.
Top 20 QB?
Basically the worst starting QB in the NFL is the 20th QB as everyone else is starting a rookie or 2nd year guy.
Saying a Daniel Jones is “better” than Bryce Young or Will Levis is meaningless because if they aren’t better than Jones by seasons end they will be replaced
Ex Was Jones “better” than Justin Fields? Who cares? Fields isnt a starter anymore and no one thought enough if him to trade for him as a starter. Same with Kenny Pickett.
Category 2. You have a guy you just drafted in the last year or two that you hope becomes a category one guy.
Category 3. Everybody else. These teams should be turning over every stone to find a QB.
The Giants think they're in Category 1, but that's because they're not very smart. They're really in Category 3, but they don't want to accept that.
The Giants' current situation is a cautionary tale for other teams.
Category 2. You have a guy you just drafted in the last year or two that you hope becomes a category one guy.
Category 3. Everybody else. These teams should be turning over every stone to find a QB.
The Giants think they're in Category 1, but that's because they're not very smart. They're really in Category 3, but they don't want to accept that.
The Giants' current situation is a cautionary tale for other teams.
I agree with this philosophy, although I'll ask how many guys you feel are truly in category 1? I know how you feel about Lawrence.
Is Tua worth $55M plus? Would you give Dak $60M?
Quote:
Category 1. You have a guy you're happy to pay a rich second contract.
Category 2. You have a guy you just drafted in the last year or two that you hope becomes a category one guy.
Category 3. Everybody else. These teams should be turning over every stone to find a QB.
The Giants think they're in Category 1, but that's because they're not very smart. They're really in Category 3, but they don't want to accept that.
The Giants' current situation is a cautionary tale for other teams.
I agree with this philosophy, although I'll ask how many guys you feel are truly in category 1? I know how you feel about Lawrence.
Is Tua worth $55M plus? Would you give Dak $60M?
No to both. Both are significantly better than Jones, but the gap between him and someone worth paying is enormous.
If you go through the rosters there are only probably about 6-8 guys I'd pay the top flight going rate.