If there's one thing we've learned over the last 5 years is the Giants love them some Daniel Jones.
A few contract things I think increase the chances he returns:
- Next year is the cheap year in his contract, keeping him in 2025 will only cost 30.5M in cash (cash by year 46, 36, 30.5, 47.5).
- In a strange way getting hurt would might help him. If he can't pass a physical in March, 23M of that 30.5M is guaranteed. If they're already paying 75%, it might make sense to let him rehab and pay the additional 7.5M.
So with contract stuff in his favor, I think it would take a disaster of a season, including Daboll getting fired for Jones to not return.
Obviously a good season secures his return. But I think even a bad to average season won't end his tenure. He becomes quite cheap as a bridge.
The FA route isn't going to work, because a Kirk Cousins-type is about as good as it gets and some of our luminaries point out he isn't good enough.
So the draft? Well if the Giants are picking 6-10ish in a weak 2025 QB draft, why would they be more likely to pick one than they were in 2024?
Further, what are the criteria that need to be met for the Giants to draft a QB? To me this is THE question of the offseason.
If not the draft, a trade? For who?
If you think this is a contentious issue now, I think it's got a chance to be much moreso around Halloween with another season in the tank.
The FA route isn't going to work, because a Kirk Cousins-type is about as good as it gets and some of our luminaries point out he isn't good enough.
So the draft? Well if the Giants are picking 6-10ish in a weak 2025 QB draft, why would they be more likely to pick one than they were in 2024?
Further, what are the criteria that need to be met for the Giants to draft a QB? To me this is THE question of the offseason.
If not the draft, a trade? For who?
If you think this is a contentious issue now, I think it's got a chance to be much moreso around Halloween with another season in the tank.
Why did they pick one in 2019? As I think it through, 2025 feels like a repeat of 2019. Bring back Jones and use a first round pick on QB. A year after they should have just like 2018.
But, yeah I think Jones being back regardless feels more likely than not.
I for one will be rooting for him to win a bunch of games and make the playoffs so we can have a little bit of fun this season. I feel like he's become so polarizing that half of the fan base wants him to be so bad he has to be cut. That just doesn't make sense to me as a fan that buys season tickets and invests many Sundays on the team.
Agree!
It’s mid June and a lot of us think this season is probably DOA already because of the QB position. I don’t get posts like this. And if it offends you, don’t click on the post.
Is there a guy in this draft like that? Sometime else that fits the bill as the Giants' "face of the franchise?" I don't know. If there isn't, Arch Manning is eligible for the 2026 draft.
2024 - Jones
2025 - Jones
2026 - Jones (last year of contract)/Arch reenact 2004 Warner/Eli.
Hey - Eric is providing a counseling service. A lot of posters were in dire need of it.
When I see a thread about a thing I don't like, a thing I find ridiculous, what should I do? Should I open that and thread and post on it? Or should I just move along?
Of course I have no way to prove it, but it’s something I’ve always suspected.
Of course I have no way to prove it, but it’s something I’ve always suspected.
Or maybe they had a better evaluation on him over Dwayne Haskins without all of the ancillary bull shit being involved
But I do think believing that they saw a lot of Eli in Jones isn’t Jim Garrison like paranoia.
But I do think believing that they saw a lot of Eli in Jones isn’t Jim Garrison like paranoia.
Maybe….at the same time….he was just the better choice over Haskins and certain tv personalities called them racist for doing it
What does that have to do with anything? Just a grudge for you to hold onto? Honestly, who cares what certain TV personalities said at the time, and why is it relevant to bring it up in this context?
Yea…it was him
Is there a guy in this draft like that? Sometime else that fits the bill as the Giants' "face of the franchise?" I don't know. If there isn't, Arch Manning is eligible for the 2026 draft.
2024 - Jones
2025 - Jones
2026 - Jones (last year of contract)/Arch reenact 2004 Warner/Eli.
You might be onto something here. Add in that Drake Maye fit that bill too. Looking back at the first round QB's the Giants have drafted: Morehead St, Duke, Ole Miss, Duke.
Quote:
I think they drafted Jones because they thought they were getting an Eli clone. Big, smart, nice, boring. From a 'good family', utterly inoffensive on camera, will do the commercials with the corporate partners, etc.
Is there a guy in this draft like that? Sometime else that fits the bill as the Giants' "face of the franchise?" I don't know. If there isn't, Arch Manning is eligible for the 2026 draft.
2024 - Jones
2025 - Jones
2026 - Jones (last year of contract)/Arch reenact 2004 Warner/Eli.
You might be onto something here. Add in that Drake Maye fit that bill too. Looking back at the first round QB's the Giants have drafted: Morehead St, Duke, Ole Miss, Duke.
And who were the available options at the time of those respective picks?
[/quote]
A better question is how do the Giants evaluate college and pro quarterbacks, and what motivated then to draft quarterbacks?
Here are the Giants' leaguewide rankings in points scored since 2012, interspersed with their QB draft picks over that period:
2012 - 6
2013 draft: Ryan Nassib, Round 4
2013 - 28
2014 - 13
2015 - 6
2016 - 26
2017 draft: Davis Webb, Senior Bowl MVP, Round 3
2017 - 31
2018 - 16
2018 draft: Kyle Lauletta, Senior Bowl MVP, Round 4
2019 - 18
2019 draft: Daniel Jones, Senior Bowl MVP, Round 1
2020 - 31
2021 - 31
2022 - 15
2023 - 30
Does this look like it tells the story of a team acting logically in the mission of winning football games?
Cris Carter was the biggest mouth in that whole scenario.
Brett Kollman blasting the Giants for not drafting Dwayne Haskins another.
Whole situation is funny looking back. The overreaction and the childish antics. Know-it-all attitude and behavior.
For all the talk of the Giants "type". Look, if the Giants had the #1 pick, Caleb Williams is their pick. It's silly.
That's a great observation.
A related but slightly different observation, around measuring "like." I think we've all collectively tortured the 2/82M number to death, when the 3/112.5 might have been the scenario to focus on.
As you know my initial thought was Team Jones not getting 3 years effectively guaranteed was a win for the Giants. That's what Prescott got (3 years of 40M), and that was my psychological expectation.
I've thought on many occasions, might it have been better for Jones to accept a lower AAV for 3 years. And my guess is functionally he did.
A better question is how do the Giants evaluate college and pro quarterbacks, and what motivated then to draft quarterbacks?
Here are the Giants' leaguewide rankings in points scored since 2012, interspersed with their QB draft picks over that period:
2012 - 6
2013 draft: Ryan Nassib, Round 4
2013 - 28
2014 - 13
2015 - 6
2016 - 26
2017 draft: Davis Webb, Senior Bowl MVP, Round 3
2017 - 31
2018 - 16
2018 draft: Kyle Lauletta, Senior Bowl MVP, Round 4
2019 - 18
2019 draft: Daniel Jones, Senior Bowl MVP, Round 1
2020 - 31
2021 - 31
2022 - 15
2023 - 30
Does this look like it tells the story of a team acting logically in the mission of winning football games? [/quote]
The Giants are not acting logically in regard to QB and openly discuss it ie needing to “fall in love” with a QB. Love isn’t based on logic.
At the same time, though, guys like Schoen and Daboll also aren't stupid; they want to win big just like all of us and know that average at QB likely isn't going to get you there and my guess is that what they want to see from Jones this fall is the ability to play at a pretty high level and if not I'm pretty sure they'll be moving on. Time will tell!
The point is the third year in his deal allows for a considerable amount of wiggle room in the cost/benefit measurements.
The point is the third year in his deal allows for a considerable amount of wiggle room in the cost/benefit measurements.
Wow! A nuanced thread on BBI; I must have missed that! The thing is the Giants aren't going to make their decision based on money and cap considerations. If they believe that Jones is the answer at QB they'll pay him. That's what NFL teams do. If they don't they'll start the process of moving on.
Unsurprisingly, the nuance goes over your head again. Because of the timing and construction of the contract, it's not necessarily a binary choice.
They may very well be in a position where they both have to pay and start the process of moving on from him.
This is the same situation they were in with Manning in 2019. His roster bonus was due before the draft at the start of the league year. One third of his new cash compensation was paid before the draft (almost exactly what the Giants owe Jones on March 5).
You contribute more with your "let it play out" decrees than when you actually try and delve into outcomes. Just stick with that.
Quote:
If they believe that Jones is the answer at QB they'll pay him. That's what NFL teams do. If they don't they'll start the process of moving on.
Unsurprisingly, the nuance goes over your head again. Because of the timing and construction of the contract, it's not necessarily a binary choice.
They may very well be in a position where they both have to pay and start the process of moving on from him.
This is the same situation they were in with Manning in 2019. His roster bonus was due before the draft at the start of the league year. One third of his new cash compensation was paid before the draft (almost exactly what the Giants owe Jones on March 5).
You contribute more with your "let it play out" decrees than when you actually try and delve into outcomes. Just stick with that.
If I read your analysis correctly the scenario you describe only would come into play if Jones can't pass a physical prior to the start of the football year. And for him to work as a bridge they'd want to have some guarantees that he'd be healthy by the fall to work as a bridge.
12M of his 30.5M 2024 salary is guaranteed March 5 (regardless of his health) which is both before the draft and free agency begins. They have to make that decision before they can draft, sign, or trade for another quarterback.
If he cannot pass a physical that same day, that 12M increases to 23M.
These stage gates in the contract before the league milestones are there by design, and to Jones's advantage. They force the Giants hand before they have all the information and options.
Imagine a scenario where they effectively "pay" either the 12M or 23M to keep their options open. Then the decision becomes is it worth to keep a healthy Jones For +18M or a recovering Jones for +7M.
Again, the question we're debating is what would it take for the Giants to not want Jones at a fair rate to be at a minimum a bridge.
12M of his 30.5M 2024 salary is guaranteed March 5 (regardless of his health) which is both before the draft and free agency begins. They have to make that decision before they can draft, sign, or trade for another quarterback.
If he cannot pass a physical that same day, that 12M increases to 23M.
These stage gates in the contract before the league milestones are there by design, and to Jones's advantage. They force the Giants hand before they have all the information and options.
Imagine a scenario where they effectively "pay" either the 12M or 23M to keep their options open. Then the decision becomes is it worth to keep a healthy Jones For +18M or a recovering Jones for +7M.
Again, the question we're debating is what would it take for the Giants to not want Jones at a fair rate to be at a minimum a bridge.
I think you are right christian. Unless the season is an absolute disaster, there's a good chance Jones is the bridge here for 2025. They've already done this in 2019. And, we just saw the Falcons pay Cousins just to draft Penix 8th overall.
I could see a scenario quite easily where the Giants bring back Jones at his salary while drafting a QB within the top 2 rounds in the draft.
12M of his 30.5M 2024 salary is guaranteed March 5 (regardless of his health) which is both before the draft and free agency begins. They have to make that decision before they can draft, sign, or trade for another quarterback.
If he cannot pass a physical that same day, that 12M increases to 23M.
These stage gates in the contract before the league milestones are there by design, and to Jones's advantage. They force the Giants hand before they have all the information and options.
Imagine a scenario where they effectively "pay" either the 12M or 23M to keep their options open. Then the decision becomes is it worth to keep a healthy Jones For +18M or a recovering Jones for +7M.
Again, the question we're debating is what would it take for the Giants to not want Jones at a fair rate to be at a minimum a bridge.
I think you've maybe got yourself really deep into the weeds here. The fact is that the Giants are going to pretty much know whether Jones is their guy going forward or not by March 5th. They are also going to have a pretty good idea what their options are in both the 2025 draft and free agency. And at that point whether they want to keep Jones around as a bridge is almost besides the point. The one thing that would complicate the issue obviously is if Jones in fact can't pass the physical, but that almost becomes one of those things worst-case scenarios that you deal with when they happen.
His current contract is not 'fair' value IF those people are close to the truth.
Aside from a scant few people who think he's top tier, there are those who think he's middle of the pack, but only with generosity is he near the top of the middle. IMO, that is still a QB who needs to be in the rearview mirror.
His contract still isn't 'fair', but it isn't outrageous.
Bridge QB's don't cost 30-40 mil. They're in the 5-15 range.
Win-Loss isn't as important as DJ showing his play is still getting better. IMO, that's what got him the contract, off a decent, not stellar, year. His trajectory was supposed to continue upward. It dropped to rock bottom, with poor play and 2 more serious injuries.
Another year of mediocrity, especially if coupled with more games lost to injury, is not going to cut it. Borderline toss-up. The lower the level of mediocrity, the less likely his return.
But, this conversation is WAAAAAAY too early. The time to have it is November, at the earliest. He could be injured, or benched, or the rest of the team could look awful, again.
Teams don't make a decision on a quarterback based on "having a pretty good idea what their options are." Do you think on March 5th 2024 the Giants had finalized their draft POV?
But regardless, that's not the point of the thread. The point of the thread is what would Jones need to show them to be unequivocally out of the race by March 5th.
In the event you've lost track of how to move along from threads you don't want to participate in, I've highlighted in red the back button conveniently located in the top left-hand corner of your browser.
And yet here you are discussing it.
You've never really addressed this question, and I am just dying to know the answer. I beg this of you. When you engage in conversations you don't want to be in, this is like the result of a spell or forced behavior?
Have you been kidnapped? Maybe by a witch? Should we call for help?
Quote:
It IS way too early for this kind of discussion.
And yet here you are discussing it.
You've never really addressed this question, and I am just dying to know the answer. I beg this of you. When you engage in conversations you don't want to be in, this is like the result of a spell or forced behavior?
Have you been kidnapped? Maybe by a witch? Should we call for help?
Maybe because I feel like the adult in the room and would like to see the discussion come back to you know like reality. Maybe the bigger question is why do you feel the need to continue to start threads that are best monumentally premature or at worst kind of stupid, irrelevant and inconsequential.
So, it's not kidnapping or witchcraft, it's thread policing, got it.
How about this, and I'll throw in a tootsie pop for you if you can be a good little boy. In the second column you'll see a label that says "Started By."
If you see the handle christian, just go ahead and skip. This way you don't accidentally find yourself participating in discussions you don't want to be in.
Quote:
In comment 16539663 Snorkels said:
Quote:
It IS way too early for this kind of discussion.
And yet here you are discussing it.
You've never really addressed this question, and I am just dying to know the answer. I beg this of you. When you engage in conversations you don't want to be in, this is like the result of a spell or forced behavior?
Have you been kidnapped? Maybe by a witch? Should we call for help?
Maybe because I feel like the adult in the room and would like to see the discussion come back to you know like reality. Maybe the bigger question is why do you feel the need to continue to start threads that are best monumentally premature or at worst kind of stupid, irrelevant and inconsequential.
I must have missed when Eric made you arbiter of what should be discussed here on BBI. If you don't like the threads Christian posts, ignore them and start your own.
Maybe because I feel like the adult in the room and would like to see the discussion come back to you know like reality. Maybe the bigger question is why do you feel the need to continue to start threads that are best monumentally premature or at worst kind of stupid, irrelevant and inconsequential.
I must have missed when Eric made you arbiter of what should be discussed here on BBI. If you don't like the threads Christian posts, ignore them and start your own.
It's a deeply weird behavior I just don't get.
It's like walking into a store and letting the clerk know you don't like what the sell and won't be buying it.
I imagine it stems from some kind of weird need to control others. The payoff from controlling me, some random dude on the internet who is chatting about football, must be very rewarding.
1. Rumors of neck issues impacting his throwing motion
2. He tore his ACL
3. When he played he was horrendous
4. Taylor and DeVito made him look like the third best QB on the team
And yet, after an offseason that saw Kirk Cousins become an FA and one of the strongest QB draft classes in years, Jones is here.
Next year's FA class probably won't have a Cousins in it, the draft class is expected to be weaker, and Jones is going to cost less.
So why would the Giants not bring him back in 2025?
Wrong on Cousins. The Falcons drafted their future QB this year. Cousins is their starter and will help with the training wheels for the new kid. Cousins is not going to sit the bench next year so he will leave for a starting job.
Next is Russell Wilson. He will be available and possibly before the end of this season.
Quote:
But, this conversation is WAAAAAAY too early. The time to have it is November, at the earliest. He could be injured, or benched, or the rest of the team could look awful, again.
In the event you've lost track of how to move along from threads you don't want to participate in, I've highlighted in red the back button conveniently located in the top left-hand corner of your browser.
Why the snark?
I did participate.
I did not tell anyone they should, or should not, have the conversation.
I merely commented that it is too early for the conversation, after having given my views on the QB situation.
Quote:
In comment 16539611 fkap said:
Quote:
But, this conversation is WAAAAAAY too early. The time to have it is November, at the earliest. He could be injured, or benched, or the rest of the team could look awful, again.
In the event you've lost track of how to move along from threads you don't want to participate in, I've highlighted in red the back button conveniently located in the top left-hand corner of your browser.
Why the snark?
I did participate.
I did not tell anyone they should, or should not, have the conversation.
I merely commented that it is too early for the conversation, after having given my views on the QB situation.
I apologize, that was uncalled for.
I think they will upgrade; but i think some of you don’t understand that it’s not
always all or nothing. they are addressing a team with massive flaws; mostly trigerred by one faulty assumption after another between 2016-2021.
Jones is most likely a lower end starter. not a horrendous backup; also not a top 10 qb whose situation has failed him. Giants may strike with right pick in
25 and cut him. They may sign a free agent and move on. We don’t know.
i don’t think the op is being fair; i don’t think nyg is in full bloom love they are going to address team as makes sense.
If nyg stink this year and draft early they will almost
certainly take a qb and move on. if they are midpack they may have to figure out how to draft or acquire a competitor more creatively.’
Quote:
In comment 16538896 section125 said:
Quote:
Who is not that much better, really.
See, this is why many think the DJFC have lost their damn minds.
This why idiots permeate BBI. I want Jones gone and have for quite awhile. But if you put Jones on the Vikings and put Cousins behind the Giants offense, the numbers likely flip.
Is Cousins better? Like I said, somewhat.
If nyg stink this year and draft early they will almost
certainly take a qb and move on. if they are midpack they may have to figure out how to draft or acquire a competitor more creatively.’
I don't they are full bloom in love with him. I think the economics make it very intriguing that they may keep him as a bridge.
Isn't he the 12th highest paid?