If there's one thing we've learned over the last 5 years is the Giants love them some Daniel Jones.
A few contract things I think increase the chances he returns:
- Next year is the cheap year in his contract, keeping him in 2025 will only cost 30.5M in cash (cash by year 46, 36, 30.5, 47.5).
- In a strange way getting hurt would might help him. If he can't pass a physical in March, 23M of that 30.5M is guaranteed. If they're already paying 75%, it might make sense to let him rehab and pay the additional 7.5M.
So with contract stuff in his favor, I think it would take a disaster of a season, including Daboll getting fired for Jones to not return.
Obviously a good season secures his return. But I think even a bad to average season won't end his tenure. He becomes quite cheap as a bridge.
It's really that simple. And it's the same policy for every NFL team that doesn't currently have a top 5 QB. Doesn't matter who's on the roster or what the circumstances are, if you can get a better QB, you do it.
Maybe they land Prescott or trade for Cousins. IF the Giants feel those guys are upgrades, Jones would be gone.
But unless Jones is truly horrid, the Giants are not just going to dump him and ride Drew Lock without having Jones' true replacement in the building.
Thus, if Jones is serviceable or better this year, and the Giants can't sign a better QB, Jones will be back.
Even if the Giants are terrible and draft a QB with a high pick, Jones might still be back to hold the fort for however long it takes for the rookie to play.
And oh yeah. Jones would also have to stay healthy (to not return). If his injury clause kicks in, they're going to be paying him $30M regardless. That might keep him a Giants backup next year even if they find a better starter.
It's not quite that simple. You also need to account for cost. If they feel like they can find similar production or even slightly worse, but at a fraction of the cost, they can and should do it. If he plays mediocre, he should be replaced because you can get mediocre production for a lot less than 30 million.
Now I don't believe that's how they will operate because they have shown zero signs that they evaluate the QB position with anything other than emotion
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In comment 16538896 section125 said:
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Who is not that much better, really.
See, this is why many think the DJFC have lost their damn minds.
This why idiots permeate BBI. I want Jones gone and have for quite awhile. But if you put Jones on the Vikings and put Cousins behind the Giants offense, the numbers likely flip.
Are we sure about that?
What if we put Jones on Washington in 2017, does he throw 27 TDs to the likes of Jamison Crowder, Ryan Grant, Josh Doctson and Vernon Davis at the tail end of his career?
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In comment 16539026 MOOPS said:
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He's 36 in 2 months, he's coming off an achilles tear and he just signed a contract that guarantees him $90M.
We gonna get some kind of Big Apple discount?
Money grow on trees around here?
Go Terps throwing shit to the wall.
Those are known as "facts". Something you are obviously not familiar with.
What MOOPS - yes they are. Which I agree with and you seem to can’t understand.
It’s not it time for you to quit on the Giants again like you have admittedly done before?
Jones isn't here anymore if he doesn't have a good 2022 season. HE's here now because despite the bad 23 season he signed long term prior to week 1. He was here after 2021 because he was a cheap cost controlled player.
Follow the money. Don't over think it. Teams rarely if ever cut cheap QBs even if they are struggling unless they feel the player isn't going to improve. See Niners with Trey Lance. Niners roster was stacked. The team was ready to win with just about anyone behind center. As long as you didn't get in the way (hello Jimmy G) you could hold the job. Lance couldn't do it, hence he was cut.
If Jones falls apart in 23 I would think the timing would be right for a release or a dramatic pay cut/team friendly restructure. Timing matters.
Engram leaves here and all of the sudden no more drops.
Barkley never came close to what he was when Eli was his QB. Yes, injuries, but he was healthy in 2022 and his receiving was way down. Plus maybe his blitz pickup might have something to do with Jones not recognizing where the blitz is coming from?
I hope I eat crow but all evidence points to the guy just not being good at football.
Right. It was DJ's fault that Evan Engram dropped passes right in his hands and we all know that guys like Isiah Hodgins were better players before coming here. No way in hell was the HC to blame for Engram or god forbid we just chalk it up to Engram maturing as a player after leaving NYG. Blame Jones...And Jones causes OL breakdowns....cmon!
PS, Hodgins was on a PS before coming here. And then he ended 2022 as a household name with approx 40 catches and 5-6 TDs in like 10 games. Isiah. Fucking. Hodgins.
I don't know why we need to exaggerate to make a point around here but ok....
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...in fact, OL guys like Feliciano and Hernandez leave here and all of the sudden look competent.
Engram leaves here and all of the sudden no more drops.
Barkley never came close to what he was when Eli was his QB. Yes, injuries, but he was healthy in 2022 and his receiving was way down. Plus maybe his blitz pickup might have something to do with Jones not recognizing where the blitz is coming from?
I hope I eat crow but all evidence points to the guy just not being good at football.
Right. It was DJ's fault that Evan Engram dropped passes right in his hands and we all know that guys like Isiah Hodgins were better players before coming here. No way in hell was the HC to blame for Engram or god forbid we just chalk it up to Engram maturing as a player after leaving NYG. Blame Jones...And Jones causes OL breakdowns....cmon!
PS, Hodgins was on a PS before coming here. And then he ended 2022 as a household name with approx 40 catches and 5-6 TDs in like 10 games. Isiah. Fucking. Hodgins.
I don't know why we need to exaggerate to make a point around here but ok....
The irony of referring to Isaiah Hodgins as a "household name" before admonishing your fellow posters about exaggeration is off the charts, even for you.
The guys who love him are convinced he'll be gone next year
Wild, unprecedented stuff. Hes among the most boring, anonymous journeyman QB who's ever played and he continues to warp the minds of owners and fans alike.
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In comment 16538896 section125 said:
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Who is not that much better, really.
See, this is why many think the DJFC have lost their damn minds.
This why idiots permeate BBI. I want Jones gone and have for quite awhile. But if you put Jones on the Vikings and put Cousins behind the Giants offense, the numbers likely flip.
Is Cousins better? Like I said, somewhat.
He is not "somewhat" better, he is CLEARLY better. His worst season is far better than Jones's best. Top 10 in yards and TD's 8 out of 9 full seasons.
Maybe you should look up "reading comprehension", because it's clearly eluding you.
The guys who love him are convinced he'll be gone next year
Wild, unprecedented stuff. Hes among the most boring, anonymous journeyman QB who's ever played and he continues to warp the minds of owners and fans alike.
He’s not a great QB and many of us want to move on, but no need to make it personal with the guy….geez
One more season of DJ already makes me want to vomit, I cannot fathom two
This...100% this.
It is so very fuckin' sad.
What other team in any other sport and at any other level, would stick with a clearly sub-par talent at the most important position - for 6, possibly 7 years?!!!
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In comment 16538818 sb from NYT Forum said:
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...in fact, OL guys like Feliciano and Hernandez leave here and all of the sudden look competent.
Engram leaves here and all of the sudden no more drops.
Barkley never came close to what he was when Eli was his QB. Yes, injuries, but he was healthy in 2022 and his receiving was way down. Plus maybe his blitz pickup might have something to do with Jones not recognizing where the blitz is coming from?
I hope I eat crow but all evidence points to the guy just not being good at football.
Right. It was DJ's fault that Evan Engram dropped passes right in his hands and we all know that guys like Isiah Hodgins were better players before coming here. No way in hell was the HC to blame for Engram or god forbid we just chalk it up to Engram maturing as a player after leaving NYG. Blame Jones...And Jones causes OL breakdowns....cmon!
PS, Hodgins was on a PS before coming here. And then he ended 2022 as a household name with approx 40 catches and 5-6 TDs in like 10 games. Isiah. Fucking. Hodgins.
I don't know why we need to exaggerate to make a point around here but ok....
The irony of referring to Isaiah Hodgins as a "household name" before admonishing your fellow posters about exaggeration is off the charts, even for you.
Had you ever heard of Hodgins prior to October / November of 2022? Did you know his name by January 2023? I know I did. The guy was starting on FF teams where as 3 months prior no one knew who he was.
Household name was appropriate. I didn't say the guy was great or pro bowl caliber or even a worthy starter. But he became known as a viable NFL WR and had a great playoff game performance.
Thanks for the interest.
You say this on every thread. I guarantee you'll post on this one a dozen more times.
- Stayed healthy
- 9-7-1 regular season, highly efficient, average production
- One very good playoff game, one very bad playoff game
So then what's the threshold for a 1/30M commitment?
Don't forget to unzip
The FA route isn't going to work, because a Kirk Cousins-type is about as good as it gets and some of our luminaries point out he isn't good enough.
So the draft? Well if the Giants are picking 6-10ish in a weak 2025 QB draft, why would they be more likely to pick one than they were in 2024?
Further, what are the criteria that need to be met for the Giants to draft a QB? To me this is THE question of the offseason.
If not the draft, a trade? For who?
If you think this is a contentious issue now, I think it's got a chance to be much moreso around Halloween with another season in the tank.
The FA route isn't going to work, because a Kirk Cousins-type is about as good as it gets and some of our luminaries point out he isn't good enough.
So the draft? Well if the Giants are picking 6-10ish in a weak 2025 QB draft, why would they be more likely to pick one than they were in 2024?
Further, what are the criteria that need to be met for the Giants to draft a QB? To me this is THE question of the offseason.
If not the draft, a trade? For who?
If you think this is a contentious issue now, I think it's got a chance to be much moreso around Halloween with another season in the tank.
Why did they pick one in 2019? As I think it through, 2025 feels like a repeat of 2019. Bring back Jones and use a first round pick on QB. A year after they should have just like 2018.
But, yeah I think Jones being back regardless feels more likely than not.
I for one will be rooting for him to win a bunch of games and make the playoffs so we can have a little bit of fun this season. I feel like he's become so polarizing that half of the fan base wants him to be so bad he has to be cut. That just doesn't make sense to me as a fan that buys season tickets and invests many Sundays on the team.
Agree!
It’s mid June and a lot of us think this season is probably DOA already because of the QB position. I don’t get posts like this. And if it offends you, don’t click on the post.
Is there a guy in this draft like that? Sometime else that fits the bill as the Giants' "face of the franchise?" I don't know. If there isn't, Arch Manning is eligible for the 2026 draft.
2024 - Jones
2025 - Jones
2026 - Jones (last year of contract)/Arch reenact 2004 Warner/Eli.
Hey - Eric is providing a counseling service. A lot of posters were in dire need of it.
When I see a thread about a thing I don't like, a thing I find ridiculous, what should I do? Should I open that and thread and post on it? Or should I just move along?
Of course I have no way to prove it, but it’s something I’ve always suspected.
Of course I have no way to prove it, but it’s something I’ve always suspected.
Or maybe they had a better evaluation on him over Dwayne Haskins without all of the ancillary bull shit being involved
But I do think believing that they saw a lot of Eli in Jones isn’t Jim Garrison like paranoia.
But I do think believing that they saw a lot of Eli in Jones isn’t Jim Garrison like paranoia.
Maybe….at the same time….he was just the better choice over Haskins and certain tv personalities called them racist for doing it
What does that have to do with anything? Just a grudge for you to hold onto? Honestly, who cares what certain TV personalities said at the time, and why is it relevant to bring it up in this context?
Yea…it was him
Is there a guy in this draft like that? Sometime else that fits the bill as the Giants' "face of the franchise?" I don't know. If there isn't, Arch Manning is eligible for the 2026 draft.
2024 - Jones
2025 - Jones
2026 - Jones (last year of contract)/Arch reenact 2004 Warner/Eli.
You might be onto something here. Add in that Drake Maye fit that bill too. Looking back at the first round QB's the Giants have drafted: Morehead St, Duke, Ole Miss, Duke.
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I think they drafted Jones because they thought they were getting an Eli clone. Big, smart, nice, boring. From a 'good family', utterly inoffensive on camera, will do the commercials with the corporate partners, etc.
Is there a guy in this draft like that? Sometime else that fits the bill as the Giants' "face of the franchise?" I don't know. If there isn't, Arch Manning is eligible for the 2026 draft.
2024 - Jones
2025 - Jones
2026 - Jones (last year of contract)/Arch reenact 2004 Warner/Eli.
You might be onto something here. Add in that Drake Maye fit that bill too. Looking back at the first round QB's the Giants have drafted: Morehead St, Duke, Ole Miss, Duke.
And who were the available options at the time of those respective picks?
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A better question is how do the Giants evaluate college and pro quarterbacks, and what motivated then to draft quarterbacks?
Here are the Giants' leaguewide rankings in points scored since 2012, interspersed with their QB draft picks over that period:
2012 - 6
2013 draft: Ryan Nassib, Round 4
2013 - 28
2014 - 13
2015 - 6
2016 - 26
2017 draft: Davis Webb, Senior Bowl MVP, Round 3
2017 - 31
2018 - 16
2018 draft: Kyle Lauletta, Senior Bowl MVP, Round 4
2019 - 18
2019 draft: Daniel Jones, Senior Bowl MVP, Round 1
2020 - 31
2021 - 31
2022 - 15
2023 - 30
Does this look like it tells the story of a team acting logically in the mission of winning football games?
Cris Carter was the biggest mouth in that whole scenario.
Brett Kollman blasting the Giants for not drafting Dwayne Haskins another.
Whole situation is funny looking back. The overreaction and the childish antics. Know-it-all attitude and behavior.
For all the talk of the Giants "type". Look, if the Giants had the #1 pick, Caleb Williams is their pick. It's silly.
That's a great observation.
A related but slightly different observation, around measuring "like." I think we've all collectively tortured the 2/82M number to death, when the 3/112.5 might have been the scenario to focus on.
As you know my initial thought was Team Jones not getting 3 years effectively guaranteed was a win for the Giants. That's what Prescott got (3 years of 40M), and that was my psychological expectation.
I've thought on many occasions, might it have been better for Jones to accept a lower AAV for 3 years. And my guess is functionally he did.
A better question is how do the Giants evaluate college and pro quarterbacks, and what motivated then to draft quarterbacks?
Here are the Giants' leaguewide rankings in points scored since 2012, interspersed with their QB draft picks over that period:
2012 - 6
2013 draft: Ryan Nassib, Round 4
2013 - 28
2014 - 13
2015 - 6
2016 - 26
2017 draft: Davis Webb, Senior Bowl MVP, Round 3
2017 - 31
2018 - 16
2018 draft: Kyle Lauletta, Senior Bowl MVP, Round 4
2019 - 18
2019 draft: Daniel Jones, Senior Bowl MVP, Round 1
2020 - 31
2021 - 31
2022 - 15
2023 - 30
Does this look like it tells the story of a team acting logically in the mission of winning football games? [/quote]
The Giants are not acting logically in regard to QB and openly discuss it ie needing to “fall in love” with a QB. Love isn’t based on logic.
At the same time, though, guys like Schoen and Daboll also aren't stupid; they want to win big just like all of us and know that average at QB likely isn't going to get you there and my guess is that what they want to see from Jones this fall is the ability to play at a pretty high level and if not I'm pretty sure they'll be moving on. Time will tell!
The point is the third year in his deal allows for a considerable amount of wiggle room in the cost/benefit measurements.
The point is the third year in his deal allows for a considerable amount of wiggle room in the cost/benefit measurements.
Wow! A nuanced thread on BBI; I must have missed that! The thing is the Giants aren't going to make their decision based on money and cap considerations. If they believe that Jones is the answer at QB they'll pay him. That's what NFL teams do. If they don't they'll start the process of moving on.
Unsurprisingly, the nuance goes over your head again. Because of the timing and construction of the contract, it's not necessarily a binary choice.
They may very well be in a position where they both have to pay and start the process of moving on from him.
This is the same situation they were in with Manning in 2019. His roster bonus was due before the draft at the start of the league year. One third of his new cash compensation was paid before the draft (almost exactly what the Giants owe Jones on March 5).
You contribute more with your "let it play out" decrees than when you actually try and delve into outcomes. Just stick with that.
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If they believe that Jones is the answer at QB they'll pay him. That's what NFL teams do. If they don't they'll start the process of moving on.
Unsurprisingly, the nuance goes over your head again. Because of the timing and construction of the contract, it's not necessarily a binary choice.
They may very well be in a position where they both have to pay and start the process of moving on from him.
This is the same situation they were in with Manning in 2019. His roster bonus was due before the draft at the start of the league year. One third of his new cash compensation was paid before the draft (almost exactly what the Giants owe Jones on March 5).
You contribute more with your "let it play out" decrees than when you actually try and delve into outcomes. Just stick with that.
If I read your analysis correctly the scenario you describe only would come into play if Jones can't pass a physical prior to the start of the football year. And for him to work as a bridge they'd want to have some guarantees that he'd be healthy by the fall to work as a bridge.
12M of his 30.5M 2024 salary is guaranteed March 5 (regardless of his health) which is both before the draft and free agency begins. They have to make that decision before they can draft, sign, or trade for another quarterback.
If he cannot pass a physical that same day, that 12M increases to 23M.
These stage gates in the contract before the league milestones are there by design, and to Jones's advantage. They force the Giants hand before they have all the information and options.
Imagine a scenario where they effectively "pay" either the 12M or 23M to keep their options open. Then the decision becomes is it worth to keep a healthy Jones For +18M or a recovering Jones for +7M.
Again, the question we're debating is what would it take for the Giants to not want Jones at a fair rate to be at a minimum a bridge.