makes a quick and big impact while staying healthy. I think a lot of the improvement in the group will be based on that.
Heavy pass offenses have been around for decades. Air Coryell, run and shoot, etc.....not a lot of SB winners without some productive run game balance. Plenty of nice regular season teams though.
2) How will Robinson's role be impacted by Nabers. Robinson was a high volume, low yardage, low YAC receiver last year.
IMO, the 2 best WRs on the team are Nabers and Robinson
Next is Slayton and, IMO, until Hyatt can be depended on - he will be the odd man out in terms of snap count.
These are numbers Eric on Li and pulled a few weeks ago re: Robinson in 2023. The big question in terms of impact for Robinson will be whether he's the dump off guy again and whether he can increase his YAC.
Robinson's 4.8 YAC put him at 70th in the league. He got a lot of looks and didn't do a lot of damage with them. I suspect Nabers will be the guy who gets a lot of those looks and does more damage with them.
All things equal with health, this is my guess in order of targets and yards
Heavy pass offenses have been around for decades. Air Coryell, run and shoot, etc.....not a lot of SB winners without some productive run game balance.
Wan'dale proved himself last season in a terrible situation. If he stays healthy he is going to be what everyone hoped Shep could be. Love Hyatt's potential so really hope he puts it together, he's a question mark to me. If he's at best a one-trick pony going deep the o-line needs to give him enough time to have a shot, that would still give defenses something to worry about. Nabers isn't a guarentee but at this point I'd be surprised and disappointed if he's not a pro bowler this season (barring QB/o-line holding him back), and it'll sting more if JMM, Penix and/or Nix turns out to be the goods..
This is the most potential and talent the overall WR group has had since Nicks, Cruz and Manningham.
Heavy pass offenses have been around for decades. Air Coryell, run and shoot, etc.....not a lot of SB winners without some productive run game balance. Plenty of nice regular season teams though.
Do you mean most Super Bowl winning teams had "productive run game balance" during the Super Bowl itself or in the games leading up to the Super Bowl?
Regardless, I'm not sure what Detroit and San Francisco have to do with it.
And potential for development so that each could compete for at least a #3 role on most teams. Now add Nabers who has the combined skills of all 3 of those players. No longer can teams take away the strength of Slayton, Hyatt or Wan’dale because Nabers has those same skills in just one player.
Regarding the rest of the receivers, the Giants need at least one receiver who can “play big”. There may be a battle there or maybe they just use Johnson as that receiver.
Regarding specials, I think Olszewski’s ability and value far outweighs McKenzie’s. Olszewski can return punts but I wouldn’t be surprised if he can return kickoffs better than McKenzie under the new format. Olszewski’s ability to gain 10+ yards consistently on punt returns and occasionally break a big one outweighs McKenzie’s ability to gain 20+ yards on a kickoff return which may not even be possible for him in the new format. McKenzie’s best position to start the year may be on the practice squad. Other than deciding between those 2 players, the 5 or 6 spot WRs should be the best gunners, although the “gunners” on the kickoff unit may not have the same role as before.
In this scenario, McKenzie would not be thee kick returner. It would be one of the running backs.
RE: i think this is wishful thinking tbh from eric
I didn't think Hodgins would make the team last year. I was wrong. He should not make it this year. Clearly Daboll is looking for speed. Nabers, Hyatt, Slayton and Robinson have it. If in camp Hodgins is making a lot of catches from Jones, we are in trouble. It will mean Jones has reverted(resumed) to security blanket mode and "Mr. Dumpoff" is still with us.
RE: RE: i think this is wishful thinking tbh from eric
to break the century mark in receptions in a season (Steve Smith and OBJ). Daboll's Giants have attempted just over 500 passes/season and completed about 65% of passes over the 2 seasons (regardless of QB). Nabers should be in line to get 120-130 targets that would have gone to Waller and Saquon, but I think they got to feed him a lot more (140-150 targets) if he is going to pass 100 receptions and push elite WR status next season.
Jones is the question mark. If healthy, he should get to 500 attempts and likely 350 completions based on past performance but he has never really had someone this talented to throw to. Will they get on same page quickly? I think Jones is going to need to for his own sake.
RE: RE: RE: i think this is wishful thinking tbh from eric
the giants are not going to have.3-4 WR have big years.
this wont happen with DJ at QB.
what constitutes a big year?
i put over/under at 800 for Nabors.
600 for Slayton.
500 for robinson/hyatt.
i expect 2022 game plans with DJ at QB. run the ball, short passing game, QB run game, and make it a close game in the 4th.
They are not going to run that kind of offense with these wide receivers.
they said that last year with waller. ..
if you go to vegas i doubt my over unders are that wrong.
They didn't run that type of offense last year so why would they run it this year when they have upgraded the WRs even further and said good-bye to Saquon. Use your head.
I'm not sure what type of offense they wanted to run last year, be they were 27th in the NFL at 7.3 air yards per attempt.
Much like the previous year, they threw the ball short a lot and presumably were looking for the pass catchers to do the damage after catch.
This makes total sense. This is the offense Kansas City runs. They were 31st in the league in air yards per attempt last year, and have been in the bottom 3rd of the NFL the last few years.
One of the the things that sets Nabers apart from the other two top 10 receivers is his elite YAC ability. He turns catches into punt returns. I suspect that will be a big part of the offensive plan.
What I don't expect to see is the Giants to air it out like the Bills.
I'm not sure what type of offense they wanted to run last year, be they were 27th in the NFL at 7.3 air yards per attempt.
Much like the previous year, they threw the ball short a lot and presumably were looking for the pass catchers to do the damage after catch.
This makes total sense. This is the offense Kansas City runs. They were 31st in the league in air yards per attempt last year, and have been in the bottom 3rd of the NFL the last few years.
One of the the things that sets Nabers apart from the other two top 10 receivers is his elite YAC ability. He turns catches into punt returns. I suspect that will be a big part of the offensive plan.
What I don't expect to see is the Giants to air it out like the Bills.
Good points - using Hyatt and Slayton to pull the safeties deep and hit Nabers and Wan'Dale (perhaps TE Johnson) underneath the safeties and over the LBs(?).
I'm not sure what type of offense they wanted to run last year, be they were 27th in the NFL at 7.3 air yards per attempt.
Much like the previous year, they threw the ball short a lot and presumably were looking for the pass catchers to do the damage after catch.
This makes total sense. This is the offense Kansas City runs. They were 31st in the league in air yards per attempt last year, and have been in the bottom 3rd of the NFL the last few years.
One of the the things that sets Nabers apart from the other two top 10 receivers is his elite YAC ability. He turns catches into punt returns. I suspect that will be a big part of the offensive plan.
What I don't expect to see is the Giants to air it out like the Bills.
I fully expect them to use the short passing game. However, that's not the point raised above about them reverting back to the 2022 offense that was largely based on Daniel Jones and Saquon Barkley running the ball. If anyone recalls, they were forced to do this because the of the mess they had at WR that year.
the point i was making about last year with waller
was that it failed.
they tried to make DJ into a full fledged QB operating in a pass first offense, he failed, he couldnt do it.
they might give him another shot i guess, but i think they will realize their best chance to win will be 2022 game plan but with more YAC ability on the field to produce more big plays but still fudamentally a limited pass game, short game with yac with nabors/robinson and some occasional shots to hyatt.
RE: the point i was making about last year with waller
was that it failed.
they tried to make DJ into a full fledged QB operating in a pass first offense, he failed, he couldnt do it.
they might give him another shot i guess, but i think they will realize their best chance to win will be 2022 game plan but with more YAC ability on the field to produce more big plays but still fudamentally a limited pass game, short game with yac with nabors/robinson and some occasional shots to hyatt.
I don't believe a 22 is replicable. It worked because of a resurgent SB and DJ taking off quickly. No SB and teams stopped DJ from running.
RE: the point i was making about last year with waller
was that it failed.
they tried to make DJ into a full fledged QB operating in a pass first offense, he failed, he couldnt do it.
they might give him another shot i guess, but i think they will realize their best chance to win will be 2022 game plan but with more YAC ability on the field to produce more big plays but still fudamentally a limited pass game, short game with yac with nabors/robinson and some occasional shots to hyatt.
While part of the failure was on DJs slow(no) read capability, a LOT of it had to do with no, and I mean no, offensive line. Clearly, if not the worst oline in NFL history, than one of the worst. It got a bit better after about 10 games, but not much.
I don't expect a miracle to happen and Jones becomes a top 10 QB. But I also do not think he will be completely useless.
honesty, the Giants did go BPA at pick 1. I wanted a QB but did not want to force the pick, happy we got Nabers. Hopefully he becomes the player everyone thinks he can
RE: RE: RE: i think this is wishful thinking tbh from eric
Putting 2023 aside, if you look at Jones's intended air yards per attempt the slope downward is pretty obvious each year.
8, 7.6, 7.2, 6.4
Every offensive coach who has worked with him after the 2019 season has progressively asked him to throw the ball shorter and shorter, and ostensibly get the ball out faster.
Of course this could be the function of pass protection, but we shouldn't ignore the possibility coaches recognize the longer Jones stays in the pocket the higher chance something bad happens.
And I don't think we should ignore the possibility the plus skill Jones has exhibited is straight line run speed. Which is typically the first thing a player recovers after an ACL injury.
I won't be surprised if the offense still has major components of get the ball out quick otherwise take off.
RE: the point i was making about last year with waller
was that it failed.
they tried to make DJ into a full fledged QB operating in a pass first offense, he failed, he couldnt do it.
they might give him another shot i guess, but i think they will realize their best chance to win will be 2022 game plan but with more YAC ability on the field to produce more big plays but still fudamentally a limited pass game, short game with yac with nabors/robinson and some occasional shots to hyatt.
This Daniel Jones stuff has gone way too far in the other direction.
You're either deliberately misrepresenting what happened or have a terrible memory.
Waller was healthy most of the summer. Right before the season started, he pulled his hamstring again. So he wasn't the player he was in the summer. On New York's first drive, the Giants easily drove down field into the redzone. Andrew Thomas jumps offsides, there is a bad snap, and then the field goal gets blocked and Andrew Thomas is lost for the first half of the year. The OL completely falls apart. Other injuries hit the OL and at one point we had a line where the combined experience level was practically zero. Jones hurts his neck, when he comes back, he tears his ACL.
And somehow you've turned this into "well, they can't run a normal offense."
the giants gameplan will be predicated on what they can do to win games.
if daboll thinks they can win with a high % of 3 by 1 sets with with a pass first offense with DJ they will be one of the worst teams in the league and hes probably getting fired.
i think DJ is a game manager type QB at best, if you ask too much, you will lose. fumbles, ints, etc etc.
his strengths are QB runs/scrambles/read option, short/accurate passing game and not have him do full field reads long holds. balance being key with run/pass split.
I think daboll will play to those strengths, while trying to open it up a bit with easy 1 on 1 shots but still focused on the core that he does well with running the ball being a focus.
given this - i dont think our WRs will have big years which was the main point. over under 800-900 yards for nabors.
the giants gameplan will be predicated on what they can do to win games.
if daboll thinks they can win with a high % of 3 by 1 sets with with a pass first offense with DJ they will be one of the worst teams in the league and hes probably getting fired.
i think DJ is a game manager type QB at best, if you ask too much, you will lose. fumbles, ints, etc etc.
his strengths are QB runs/scrambles/read option, short/accurate passing game and not have him do full field reads long holds. balance being key with run/pass split.
I think daboll will play to those strengths, while trying to open it up a bit with easy 1 on 1 shots but still focused on the core that he does well with running the ball being a focus.
given this - i dont think our WRs will have big years which was the main point. over under 800-900 yards for nabors.
Then we have the wrong GM and HC. Because they are going to throw the ball. It's clear based on everything they've done and what has been reported already from this spring.
I think when reading tea leaves we can all see signals of maybe where we want or think things should go.
Singeltary for instance has never come close to the 76 pass targets Barkely did in 2022. The Giants also signed two blocking tight ends as well ads drafting a pass catching tight end.
To me it's less a matter of run vs. pass attempts, and more about how the Giants plan to achieve plays by yards.
Do they plan to achieve 0-10 yard gains through a lot of short passes at or near the line?
Do they plan to achieve 10-20 gains with balls thrown in the air that far or with passes intended for YAC?
Can they start putting up those 20 yard chunk plays at a strong clip?
I think at the risk at re-torturing the horse's corpse, this all comes down to Daniel Jones and pass protection.
the giants gameplan will be predicated on what they can do to win games.
if daboll thinks they can win with a high % of 3 by 1 sets with with a pass first offense with DJ they will be one of the worst teams in the league and hes probably getting fired.
i think DJ is a game manager type QB at best, if you ask too much, you will lose. fumbles, ints, etc etc.
his strengths are QB runs/scrambles/read option, short/accurate passing game and not have him do full field reads long holds. balance being key with run/pass split.
I think daboll will play to those strengths, while trying to open it up a bit with easy 1 on 1 shots but still focused on the core that he does well with running the ball being a focus.
given this - i dont think our WRs will have big years which was the main point. over under 800-900 yards for nabors.
You are not paying attention. He didn't draft all those playmakers to play cautiously. They RBs he picked up are pass catching players.
And Jones, fwiw, turnovers have dropped dramatically. Yes last year was a minor retro, but still he has been infinitely better than his early days. I agree that I do not expect a big change in the player. But since 2022 they have added Hyatt, Nabers, Theo Johnson and in effect Wan'Dale since he got hurt early in 2022. Even picked up fast players as FAs and UDFAs.
Those are not players you go conservative with. Yes the plan may be to hit quick crossers and unders, but these players signal a move from plodding along with 4 yard running plays and hoping Barkley can break one.
I think when reading tea leaves we can all see signals of maybe where we want or think things should go.
Singeltary for instance has never come close to the 76 pass targets Barkely did in 2022. The Giants also signed two blocking tight ends as well ads drafting a pass catching tight end.
To me it's less a matter of run vs. pass attempts, and more about how the Giants plan to achieve plays by yards.
Do they plan to achieve 0-10 yard gains through a lot of short passes at or near the line?
Do they plan to achieve 10-20 gains with balls thrown in the air that far or with passes intended for YAC?
Can they start putting up those 20 yard chunk plays at a strong clip?
I think at the risk at re-torturing the horse's corpse, this all comes down to Daniel Jones and pass protection.
I get what you are saying and you are not incorrect, but big picture, this coaching staff clearly believes you score points by throwing the football.
The lengths people go to defend indefensible positions.
Forget the name on the back of the QB jersey (I know that's not possible for most BBIers). Watch the video from a guy who actually played for Daboll who says Daboll worked miracles in 2022 specifically because of because of the utter crap we had at WR.
Daboll and Schoen have said repeatedly and specifically they need to get more explosive on offense. To Eric's point, roster construction backs that up. Nothing about it says they're building a run-centric / dink-dunk team -- in fact everything about it says that's exactly what they want to get away from. Film Review: New York Giants head coach Brian Daboll is a GENIUS - ( New Window )
It's this WR group with Daboll running the offense and calling plays.
Look what happened to the Eagles offense when they got AJ Brown and Devonta Smith. Hurts was a joke just like DJ's been (anyone remember him losing to Judge's Giants? He looked like he couldn't complete a pass) and all the sudden he was in the MVP hunt.
I'm expecting this group to change the outlook of this offense significantly, even if the OL continues to suck.
to break the century mark in receptions in a season (Steve Smith and OBJ). Daboll's Giants have attempted just over 500 passes/season and completed about 65% of passes over the 2 seasons (regardless of QB). Nabers should be in line to get 120-130 targets that would have gone to Waller and Saquon, but I think they got to feed him a lot more (140-150 targets) if he is going to pass 100 receptions and push elite WR status next season.
Jones is the question mark. If healthy, he should get to 500 attempts and likely 350 completions based on past performance but he has never really had someone this talented to throw to. Will they get on same page quickly? I think Jones is going to need to for his own sake.
I'm not sure what type of offense they wanted to run last year, be they were 27th in the NFL at 7.3 air yards per attempt.
i think last year they tried to do more of the KC offense and it obviously failed spectacularly. Waller was going to be the Kelce, not unlike the receivers KC had post-Tyreek they were going to try to spread the ball around and scheme speed plays.
there is no doubt they knew jones isn't mahomes, but with his legs and barkleys i think they expected they could a little more explosive passing while maintaining the run game. defense take a step forward with banks/okereke/ashawn/nacho.
what they missed on was...pretty much everything. and now daboll is back on the playcalling and i think going way more direct to what he knows. im not sure how downfield the passing attack will be but i think there will 600+ of them.
made a decision that a force multiplier (Nabers) was the better way to go at 6, rather than a second tier QB (JJM). Only time will tell, but its a sound strategy whether it works out or not.
You can always go after a 2nd tier QB when we have made some foundational improvements this year.
I agree, not sure if you saw my post above, but I think that's the number for both Kafka and Daboll would be 600 ideally. Obviously last year they just plain sucked.
The key obviously is possessions and first downs. They can't be averaging fewer than 5 yards a play, and they can't bottom three in first downs.
I'm excited about the array of weapons. I find nothing more boring than watching a running back fall down.
Heavy pass offenses have been around for decades. Air Coryell, run and shoot, etc.....not a lot of SB winners without some productive run game balance. Plenty of nice regular season teams though.
IMO, the 2 best WRs on the team are Nabers and Robinson
Next is Slayton and, IMO, until Hyatt can be depended on - he will be the odd man out in terms of snap count.
These are numbers Eric on Li and pulled a few weeks ago re: Robinson in 2023. The big question in terms of impact for Robinson will be whether he's the dump off guy again and whether he can increase his YAC.
Robinson's 4.8 YAC put him at 70th in the league. He got a lot of looks and didn't do a lot of damage with them. I suspect Nabers will be the guy who gets a lot of those looks and does more damage with them.
All things equal with health, this is my guess in order of targets and yards
Targets: Nabers, Robinson, Slayton, Hyatt
Yards: Nabers, Slyaton, Hyatt, Robinson
How would you define balance?
Well as we know Detroit and San Francisco didn't win the Super Bowl.
Would you be comfortable setting the definition of "high" at top 10 in the league across those categories?
This is the most potential and talent the overall WR group has had since Nicks, Cruz and Manningham.
If you actually look at the run game in the SB you will see something that was a lot different than the regular season and had a big impact on the QB.
Who is Galloway?
Do you mean most Super Bowl winning teams had "productive run game balance" during the Super Bowl itself or in the games leading up to the Super Bowl?
Regardless, I'm not sure what Detroit and San Francisco have to do with it.
:-)
Hoping Nabers, Robinson and Hyatt are far away from that awful trio and closer to Nicks, Cruz and Manningham.
this wont happen with DJ at QB.
what constitutes a big year?
i put over/under at 800 for Nabors.
600 for Slayton.
500 for robinson/hyatt.
i expect 2022 game plans with DJ at QB. run the ball, short passing game, QB run game, and make it a close game in the 4th.
Regarding the rest of the receivers, the Giants need at least one receiver who can “play big”. There may be a battle there or maybe they just use Johnson as that receiver.
Regarding specials, I think Olszewski’s ability and value far outweighs McKenzie’s. Olszewski can return punts but I wouldn’t be surprised if he can return kickoffs better than McKenzie under the new format. Olszewski’s ability to gain 10+ yards consistently on punt returns and occasionally break a big one outweighs McKenzie’s ability to gain 20+ yards on a kickoff return which may not even be possible for him in the new format. McKenzie’s best position to start the year may be on the practice squad. Other than deciding between those 2 players, the 5 or 6 spot WRs should be the best gunners, although the “gunners” on the kickoff unit may not have the same role as before.
In this scenario, McKenzie would not be thee kick returner. It would be one of the running backs.
this wont happen with DJ at QB.
what constitutes a big year?
i put over/under at 800 for Nabors.
600 for Slayton.
500 for robinson/hyatt.
i expect 2022 game plans with DJ at QB. run the ball, short passing game, QB run game, and make it a close game in the 4th.
They are not going to run that kind of offense with these wide receivers.
Quote:
the giants are not going to have.3-4 WR have big years.
this wont happen with DJ at QB.
what constitutes a big year?
i put over/under at 800 for Nabors.
600 for Slayton.
500 for robinson/hyatt.
i expect 2022 game plans with DJ at QB. run the ball, short passing game, QB run game, and make it a close game in the 4th.
They are not going to run that kind of offense with these wide receivers.
they said that last year with waller. ..
if you go to vegas i doubt my over unders are that wrong.
Jones is the question mark. If healthy, he should get to 500 attempts and likely 350 completions based on past performance but he has never really had someone this talented to throw to. Will they get on same page quickly? I think Jones is going to need to for his own sake.
Quote:
In comment 16540489 bigbluewillrise said:
Quote:
the giants are not going to have.3-4 WR have big years.
this wont happen with DJ at QB.
what constitutes a big year?
i put over/under at 800 for Nabors.
600 for Slayton.
500 for robinson/hyatt.
i expect 2022 game plans with DJ at QB. run the ball, short passing game, QB run game, and make it a close game in the 4th.
They are not going to run that kind of offense with these wide receivers.
they said that last year with waller. ..
if you go to vegas i doubt my over unders are that wrong.
They didn't run that type of offense last year so why would they run it this year when they have upgraded the WRs even further and said good-bye to Saquon. Use your head.
Much like the previous year, they threw the ball short a lot and presumably were looking for the pass catchers to do the damage after catch.
This makes total sense. This is the offense Kansas City runs. They were 31st in the league in air yards per attempt last year, and have been in the bottom 3rd of the NFL the last few years.
One of the the things that sets Nabers apart from the other two top 10 receivers is his elite YAC ability. He turns catches into punt returns. I suspect that will be a big part of the offensive plan.
What I don't expect to see is the Giants to air it out like the Bills.
@rydunleavy
Fun moment here at #Giants100 event
Brian Daboll was talking about Malik Nabers. A fan broke silence by yelling ‘Throw the ball downfield!’
Daboll made the guy stand up and say it again.
‘You got it,’ Daboll said
Much like the previous year, they threw the ball short a lot and presumably were looking for the pass catchers to do the damage after catch.
This makes total sense. This is the offense Kansas City runs. They were 31st in the league in air yards per attempt last year, and have been in the bottom 3rd of the NFL the last few years.
One of the the things that sets Nabers apart from the other two top 10 receivers is his elite YAC ability. He turns catches into punt returns. I suspect that will be a big part of the offensive plan.
What I don't expect to see is the Giants to air it out like the Bills.
Good points - using Hyatt and Slayton to pull the safeties deep and hit Nabers and Wan'Dale (perhaps TE Johnson) underneath the safeties and over the LBs(?).
Much like the previous year, they threw the ball short a lot and presumably were looking for the pass catchers to do the damage after catch.
This makes total sense. This is the offense Kansas City runs. They were 31st in the league in air yards per attempt last year, and have been in the bottom 3rd of the NFL the last few years.
One of the the things that sets Nabers apart from the other two top 10 receivers is his elite YAC ability. He turns catches into punt returns. I suspect that will be a big part of the offensive plan.
What I don't expect to see is the Giants to air it out like the Bills.
I fully expect them to use the short passing game. However, that's not the point raised above about them reverting back to the 2022 offense that was largely based on Daniel Jones and Saquon Barkley running the ball. If anyone recalls, they were forced to do this because the of the mess they had at WR that year.
they tried to make DJ into a full fledged QB operating in a pass first offense, he failed, he couldnt do it.
they might give him another shot i guess, but i think they will realize their best chance to win will be 2022 game plan but with more YAC ability on the field to produce more big plays but still fudamentally a limited pass game, short game with yac with nabors/robinson and some occasional shots to hyatt.
they tried to make DJ into a full fledged QB operating in a pass first offense, he failed, he couldnt do it.
they might give him another shot i guess, but i think they will realize their best chance to win will be 2022 game plan but with more YAC ability on the field to produce more big plays but still fudamentally a limited pass game, short game with yac with nabors/robinson and some occasional shots to hyatt.
I don't believe a 22 is replicable. It worked because of a resurgent SB and DJ taking off quickly. No SB and teams stopped DJ from running.
they tried to make DJ into a full fledged QB operating in a pass first offense, he failed, he couldnt do it.
they might give him another shot i guess, but i think they will realize their best chance to win will be 2022 game plan but with more YAC ability on the field to produce more big plays but still fudamentally a limited pass game, short game with yac with nabors/robinson and some occasional shots to hyatt.
While part of the failure was on DJs slow(no) read capability, a LOT of it had to do with no, and I mean no, offensive line. Clearly, if not the worst oline in NFL history, than one of the worst. It got a bit better after about 10 games, but not much.
I don't expect a miracle to happen and Jones becomes a top 10 QB. But I also do not think he will be completely useless.
2021: 171 passing, 90 rushing
2022: 170 passing, 150 rushing (62 SB, 57 DJ)
2023: 141 passing, 97 rushing
Of NYG's 170 passing first downs in 2022, 123 were from WRs.
Of NYG's 141 passing first downs in 2023, 87 were from WRs.
Giants have added one guy (Nabers) and are hoping for a jump from another guy (Hyatt).
The 141 passing first downs in 2023 were lowest for NYG since 1998. Nowhere to go but up.
Quote:
In comment 16540489 bigbluewillrise said:
Quote:
the giants are not going to have.3-4 WR have big years.
this wont happen with DJ at QB.
what constitutes a big year?
i put over/under at 800 for Nabors.
600 for Slayton.
500 for robinson/hyatt.
i expect 2022 game plans with DJ at QB. run the ball, short passing game, QB run game, and make it a close game in the 4th.
They are not going to run that kind of offense with these wide receivers.
they said that last year with waller. ..
if you go to vegas i doubt my over unders are that wrong.
Oh please. What was supposed to be in 2023 is fucking meaningless. Pick another hill do die on.
8, 7.6, 7.2, 6.4
Every offensive coach who has worked with him after the 2019 season has progressively asked him to throw the ball shorter and shorter, and ostensibly get the ball out faster.
Of course this could be the function of pass protection, but we shouldn't ignore the possibility coaches recognize the longer Jones stays in the pocket the higher chance something bad happens.
And I don't think we should ignore the possibility the plus skill Jones has exhibited is straight line run speed. Which is typically the first thing a player recovers after an ACL injury.
I won't be surprised if the offense still has major components of get the ball out quick otherwise take off.
they tried to make DJ into a full fledged QB operating in a pass first offense, he failed, he couldnt do it.
they might give him another shot i guess, but i think they will realize their best chance to win will be 2022 game plan but with more YAC ability on the field to produce more big plays but still fudamentally a limited pass game, short game with yac with nabors/robinson and some occasional shots to hyatt.
This Daniel Jones stuff has gone way too far in the other direction.
You're either deliberately misrepresenting what happened or have a terrible memory.
Waller was healthy most of the summer. Right before the season started, he pulled his hamstring again. So he wasn't the player he was in the summer. On New York's first drive, the Giants easily drove down field into the redzone. Andrew Thomas jumps offsides, there is a bad snap, and then the field goal gets blocked and Andrew Thomas is lost for the first half of the year. The OL completely falls apart. Other injuries hit the OL and at one point we had a line where the combined experience level was practically zero. Jones hurts his neck, when he comes back, he tears his ACL.
And somehow you've turned this into "well, they can't run a normal offense."
- Sign Runyan, who is a far better pass blocker than run blocker - to a $30 million contract.
- Let Saquon walk.
- Bring in Singletary and Tracy, who are pass catchers.
- Draft Nabers with the 6th overall pick.
- Draft Theo Johnson, who is a better pass catcher than blocker.
And your take-away is they are going to run the ball more?
- Sign Runyan, who is a far better pass blocker than run blocker - to a $30 million contract.
- Let Saquon walk.
- Bring in Singletary and Tracy, who are pass catchers.
- Draft Nabers with the 6th overall pick.
- Draft Theo Johnson, who is a better pass catcher than blocker.
And your take-away is they are going to run the ball more?
This is a great post. If Jones stays healthy, which is a big ?…..
I think he’s going to put up pretty impressive statistics- just because our skill players have a chance to be very very good.
the giants gameplan will be predicated on what they can do to win games.
if daboll thinks they can win with a high % of 3 by 1 sets with with a pass first offense with DJ they will be one of the worst teams in the league and hes probably getting fired.
i think DJ is a game manager type QB at best, if you ask too much, you will lose. fumbles, ints, etc etc.
his strengths are QB runs/scrambles/read option, short/accurate passing game and not have him do full field reads long holds. balance being key with run/pass split.
I think daboll will play to those strengths, while trying to open it up a bit with easy 1 on 1 shots but still focused on the core that he does well with running the ball being a focus.
given this - i dont think our WRs will have big years which was the main point. over under 800-900 yards for nabors.
the giants gameplan will be predicated on what they can do to win games.
if daboll thinks they can win with a high % of 3 by 1 sets with with a pass first offense with DJ they will be one of the worst teams in the league and hes probably getting fired.
i think DJ is a game manager type QB at best, if you ask too much, you will lose. fumbles, ints, etc etc.
his strengths are QB runs/scrambles/read option, short/accurate passing game and not have him do full field reads long holds. balance being key with run/pass split.
I think daboll will play to those strengths, while trying to open it up a bit with easy 1 on 1 shots but still focused on the core that he does well with running the ball being a focus.
given this - i dont think our WRs will have big years which was the main point. over under 800-900 yards for nabors.
Then we have the wrong GM and HC. Because they are going to throw the ball. It's clear based on everything they've done and what has been reported already from this spring.
Singeltary for instance has never come close to the 76 pass targets Barkely did in 2022. The Giants also signed two blocking tight ends as well ads drafting a pass catching tight end.
To me it's less a matter of run vs. pass attempts, and more about how the Giants plan to achieve plays by yards.
Do they plan to achieve 0-10 yard gains through a lot of short passes at or near the line?
Do they plan to achieve 10-20 gains with balls thrown in the air that far or with passes intended for YAC?
Can they start putting up those 20 yard chunk plays at a strong clip?
I think at the risk at re-torturing the horse's corpse, this all comes down to Daniel Jones and pass protection.
the giants gameplan will be predicated on what they can do to win games.
if daboll thinks they can win with a high % of 3 by 1 sets with with a pass first offense with DJ they will be one of the worst teams in the league and hes probably getting fired.
i think DJ is a game manager type QB at best, if you ask too much, you will lose. fumbles, ints, etc etc.
his strengths are QB runs/scrambles/read option, short/accurate passing game and not have him do full field reads long holds. balance being key with run/pass split.
I think daboll will play to those strengths, while trying to open it up a bit with easy 1 on 1 shots but still focused on the core that he does well with running the ball being a focus.
given this - i dont think our WRs will have big years which was the main point. over under 800-900 yards for nabors.
You are not paying attention. He didn't draft all those playmakers to play cautiously. They RBs he picked up are pass catching players.
And Jones, fwiw, turnovers have dropped dramatically. Yes last year was a minor retro, but still he has been infinitely better than his early days. I agree that I do not expect a big change in the player. But since 2022 they have added Hyatt, Nabers, Theo Johnson and in effect Wan'Dale since he got hurt early in 2022. Even picked up fast players as FAs and UDFAs.
Those are not players you go conservative with. Yes the plan may be to hit quick crossers and unders, but these players signal a move from plodding along with 4 yard running plays and hoping Barkley can break one.
Singeltary for instance has never come close to the 76 pass targets Barkely did in 2022. The Giants also signed two blocking tight ends as well ads drafting a pass catching tight end.
To me it's less a matter of run vs. pass attempts, and more about how the Giants plan to achieve plays by yards.
Do they plan to achieve 0-10 yard gains through a lot of short passes at or near the line?
Do they plan to achieve 10-20 gains with balls thrown in the air that far or with passes intended for YAC?
Can they start putting up those 20 yard chunk plays at a strong clip?
I think at the risk at re-torturing the horse's corpse, this all comes down to Daniel Jones and pass protection.
I get what you are saying and you are not incorrect, but big picture, this coaching staff clearly believes you score points by throwing the football.
Forget the name on the back of the QB jersey (I know that's not possible for most BBIers). Watch the video from a guy who actually played for Daboll who says Daboll worked miracles in 2022 specifically because of because of the utter crap we had at WR.
Daboll and Schoen have said repeatedly and specifically they need to get more explosive on offense. To Eric's point, roster construction backs that up. Nothing about it says they're building a run-centric / dink-dunk team -- in fact everything about it says that's exactly what they want to get away from.
Film Review: New York Giants head coach Brian Daboll is a GENIUS - ( New Window )
Look what happened to the Eagles offense when they got AJ Brown and Devonta Smith. Hurts was a joke just like DJ's been (anyone remember him losing to Judge's Giants? He looked like he couldn't complete a pass) and all the sudden he was in the MVP hunt.
I'm expecting this group to change the outlook of this offense significantly, even if the OL continues to suck.
I get what you are saying and you are not incorrect, but big picture, this coaching staff clearly believes you score points by throwing the football.
Yes absolutely. I think the staff wants to
1) Use the short pass game in place of the run
2) Throw the ball a lot more than they've been able to in 2022/2023
I think if you privately asked Kafka especially what the single indication would be the Giants had a great offense, he would say pass attempts.
I'd love to see the Giants pass the ball 600 times next year.
Jones is the question mark. If healthy, he should get to 500 attempts and likely 350 completions based on past performance but he has never really had someone this talented to throw to. Will they get on same page quickly? I think Jones is going to need to for his own sake.
i think last year they tried to do more of the KC offense and it obviously failed spectacularly. Waller was going to be the Kelce, not unlike the receivers KC had post-Tyreek they were going to try to spread the ball around and scheme speed plays.
there is no doubt they knew jones isn't mahomes, but with his legs and barkleys i think they expected they could a little more explosive passing while maintaining the run game. defense take a step forward with banks/okereke/ashawn/nacho.
what they missed on was...pretty much everything. and now daboll is back on the playcalling and i think going way more direct to what he knows. im not sure how downfield the passing attack will be but i think there will 600+ of them.
You can always go after a 2nd tier QB when we have made some foundational improvements this year.
The key obviously is possessions and first downs. They can't be averaging fewer than 5 yards a play, and they can't bottom three in first downs.
I'm excited about the array of weapons. I find nothing more boring than watching a running back fall down.