Ryan Dunleavy
@rydunleavy
#Giants planning to use Isaiah Simmons as first- and second-down nickel back, as per a pre-draft video with Shane Bowen and scouts shown at #Giants100 Night with Legends
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
Biggest reveal from Hard Knocks teaser tonight: Shane Bowen has big plans for Isaiah Simmons. #Giants100
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Everyone loves his athletic abilities for sure
Having said that a hybrid safety is probably his best position
We can only hope he plays well for the Giants
Not being negative only telling it like I see it.
Carl Banks thinks differently. Like completely the opposite. Link - ( New Window )
Carl had nice things to say on a piece that was produced for Giants.com? NFW!
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Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
The plan for Isaiah Simmons heading into the season will be to use him as first and second down nickel and in a third down position new DC Shane Bowen called “money.” This was revealed when a Hard Knocks preview clip was shown last night at Giants 100.
This is interesting, but I don't recall this having been reported in Mini-camp or OTAs. I guess maybe we'll see in training camp.
It has. See this report.
June 6, 2024 New York Giants OTA Practice Report - ( New Window )
Having said that a hybrid safety is probably his best position
We can only hope he plays well for the Giants
Not being negative only telling it like I see it.
i dont agree with this. the problem isn't the instincts, it's finding a position that fits those instincts.
his instincts are more that of a DB but his body is the size of a LB or edge. he is too big to have the range/change of direction of an NFL DB but doesn't have the stoutness or instincts of a traditional ILB.
he is a good blitzer and good at coverage TEs/RBs, which is why DCs continue trying to find roles within defenses for him. Last year he actually graded out as one of the better players on the defense by PFF in a mostly coverage role. the problem was that the defense rarely got opposing teams into 3rd/long type situations.
You're confusing nickel corner with a nickel backer.
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he's on the field, but if it's 3rd down nickel he's on the sideline?
Raanan:
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The plan for Isaiah Simmons heading into the season will be to use him as first and second down nickel and in a third down position new DC Shane Bowen called “money.”
I'm guessing this is like a "moneybacker" we've seen before. That is basically a combination or linebacker and strong safety.
Exactly.
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In comment 16540582 Eric from BBI said:
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It has. See this report. June 6, 2024 New York Giants OTA Practice Report - ( New Window )
Things like Patterson working with the E/Rs so interior and outside line play will be coordinated: different usage of IDL; different usage of DBs (4 high vs single high) and a totally different philosophy between Wink and Bowen.
I was thinking when Spags came and how for 2 3/4 games the defense was terrible as the players tried to "figure out" their responsibilities. Wouldn't be surprised if it is the same, especially with reduced camp time.
We may be jumping off buildings the first 3 games...
On a team with a thin roster,having a versatile player with athleticism isn't a bad thing. Let's see what they can come up with for him. And I agree...having him cover anyone is better than the countless Edge dropbacks web have been subjected to the past few years.
Things like Patterson working with the E/Rs so interior and outside line play will be coordinated: different usage of IDL; different usage of DBs (4 high vs single high) and a totally different philosophy between Wink and Bowen.
I was thinking when Spags came and how for 2 3/4 games the defense was terrible as the players tried to "figure out" their responsibilities. Wouldn't be surprised if it is the same, especially with reduced camp time.
We may be jumping off buildings the first 3 games...
the scheme difference is overrated (both wink and bowen are direct descendants of dean pees, who daboll coached with in NE) and it sounds like bowen plans to use simmons in the same role wink used him in.
patterson said in an interview during the spring he's teaching things exactly the same way.
the difference in playcalling, fewer blitzes, and more zone than man will be noticeable changes, but scheme wise this is probably close to as similar as a change can be with an external hire.
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In comment 16540517 Bill in UT said:
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IDK if they'll ever find a niche he fits into
There's a niche.
It's running around very fast and lost, then almost always late to making the play. He fits it perfectly, but it doesn't fit football very well.
He appears to process defensive plays as well as we-know-who processes offensive plays.
Youd think there would be a special teams role for him.
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use stats from last two years is sort of irrelevant. This is a completely different defense. It is apples and oranges.
Things like Patterson working with the E/Rs so interior and outside line play will be coordinated: different usage of IDL; different usage of DBs (4 high vs single high) and a totally different philosophy between Wink and Bowen.
I was thinking when Spags came and how for 2 3/4 games the defense was terrible as the players tried to "figure out" their responsibilities. Wouldn't be surprised if it is the same, especially with reduced camp time.
We may be jumping off buildings the first 3 games...
the scheme difference is overrated (both wink and bowen are direct descendants of dean pees, who daboll coached with in NE) and it sounds like bowen plans to use simmons in the same role wink used him in.
patterson said in an interview during the spring he's teaching things exactly the same way.
the difference in playcalling, fewer blitzes, and more zone than man will be noticeable changes, but scheme wise this is probably close to as similar as a change can be with an external hire.
Well we will see and I think it will be different. The mere fact Patterson is coaching ERs and IDL is different and the players mentioned it.
With Wink blitzing 45% of the time vs Bowens 25ish% that is a big difference. Different DB scheme.
One never knows until it is seen in game, but I Tennessee's defense and the Giants' defense did seem the same. It could be a hybrid of what he did in Tenn, but...
THIS ^^^^^
Not just dissenting opinion or reasoned analysis, but always couched in demeaning insults. Oh well, to each his own.
Have fantasy teams....and look at stats sheets.
Simmons shut down several TEs last year, and considering the Giants never did that well. I was very impressed.
My rule on BBI....
I offer my opinion. Do not bother with many of the posters.....and limit my battles and disregard most
You're correct, there, with me. The Giants are simply unwatchable football. So, all that I see are lowlights/highlights.
My question is, while shutting down a tight end, does he stick with him too long, or does he have the fast processing speed to then know where the actual play, and the ball, is going?
If Simmons was instinctive as Banks states the Cardinals would have never given up on him for a 7th round pick.
Did you watch him play last year??
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In comment 16540702 section125 said:
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use stats from last two years is sort of irrelevant. This is a completely different defense. It is apples and oranges.
Things like Patterson working with the E/Rs so interior and outside line play will be coordinated: different usage of IDL; different usage of DBs (4 high vs single high) and a totally different philosophy between Wink and Bowen.
I was thinking when Spags came and how for 2 3/4 games the defense was terrible as the players tried to "figure out" their responsibilities. Wouldn't be surprised if it is the same, especially with reduced camp time.
We may be jumping off buildings the first 3 games...
the scheme difference is overrated (both wink and bowen are direct descendants of dean pees, who daboll coached with in NE) and it sounds like bowen plans to use simmons in the same role wink used him in.
patterson said in an interview during the spring he's teaching things exactly the same way.
the difference in playcalling, fewer blitzes, and more zone than man will be noticeable changes, but scheme wise this is probably close to as similar as a change can be with an external hire.
Well we will see and I think it will be different. The mere fact Patterson is coaching ERs and IDL is different and the players mentioned it.
With Wink blitzing 45% of the time vs Bowens 25ish% that is a big difference. Different DB scheme.
One never knows until it is seen in game, but I Tennessee's defense and the Giants' defense did seem the same. It could be a hybrid of what he did in Tenn, but...
playcalling and scheme arent the same things.
both schemes are 3-4, both schemes changed gameplans a lot week to week, a lot of the same verbiage and techniques are likely to be taught since both wink and bowen spent multiple seasons coaching LBs under the same DC right before they became DCs. patterson confirmed that he is coaching the DL/edges exactly the same.
yes bowen will deploy his defense very differently, but this is likely to be less of a change than graham to wink was. the defense improved by 3 ppg from 2021 to 2022 despite losing talent.
in the NFL there is always going to be some amount change. this particular change isn't on the more extreme end (which the change to wink was).
If Simmons was instinctive as Banks states the Cardinals would have never given up on him for a 7th round pick.
Did you watch him play last year??
reread what you just wrote. nobody disagrees with his deficiencies vs the run. that's why he isnt a full time linebacker.
what carl banks pointed out correctly is that he has good instincts in space and in coverage.
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In comment 16540748 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16540702 section125 said:
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use stats from last two years is sort of irrelevant. This is a completely different defense. It is apples and oranges.
Things like Patterson working with the E/Rs so interior and outside line play will be coordinated: different usage of IDL; different usage of DBs (4 high vs single high) and a totally different philosophy between Wink and Bowen.
I was thinking when Spags came and how for 2 3/4 games the defense was terrible as the players tried to "figure out" their responsibilities. Wouldn't be surprised if it is the same, especially with reduced camp time.
We may be jumping off buildings the first 3 games...
the scheme difference is overrated (both wink and bowen are direct descendants of dean pees, who daboll coached with in NE) and it sounds like bowen plans to use simmons in the same role wink used him in.
patterson said in an interview during the spring he's teaching things exactly the same way.
the difference in playcalling, fewer blitzes, and more zone than man will be noticeable changes, but scheme wise this is probably close to as similar as a change can be with an external hire.
Well we will see and I think it will be different. The mere fact Patterson is coaching ERs and IDL is different and the players mentioned it.
With Wink blitzing 45% of the time vs Bowens 25ish% that is a big difference. Different DB scheme.
One never knows until it is seen in game, but I Tennessee's defense and the Giants' defense did seem the same. It could be a hybrid of what he did in Tenn, but...
playcalling and scheme arent the same things.
both schemes are 3-4, both schemes changed gameplans a lot week to week, a lot of the same verbiage and techniques are likely to be taught since both wink and bowen spent multiple seasons coaching LBs under the same DC right before they became DCs. patterson confirmed that he is coaching the DL/edges exactly the same.
yes bowen will deploy his defense very differently, but this is likely to be less of a change than graham to wink was. the defense improved by 3 ppg from 2021 to 2022 despite losing talent.
in the NFL there is always going to be some amount change. this particular change isn't on the more extreme end (which the change to wink was).
I think are getting into semantics now. I disagree with your POV. I also believe you are better at diagnosing defense than I am. So you have that advantage.
Wink's defense was rarely a 3-4 even if "called" that. Bowen seems more 4-3, even if called a 3-4. I admit I do not know Bowen's defense intimately. But he claims to only play with 4 on the DL(including ERs).
It is all speculation anyway, until the whistle blows in September.
There is not a DC in NFL or College that doesn't tailor his game day plan to his opponent.
I know coaches love versatility, but often that's a white whale. I think he's a good cover safety and occasional blitzer.
I think are getting into semantics now. I disagree with your POV. I also believe you are better at diagnosing defense than I am. So you have that advantage.
Wink's defense was rarely a 3-4 even if "called" that. Bowen seems more 4-3, even if called a 3-4. I admit I do not know Bowen's defense intimately. But he claims to only play with 4 on the DL(including ERs).
It is all speculation anyway, until the whistle blows in September.
There is not a DC in NFL or College that doesn't tailor his game day plan to his opponent.
bowen literally confirmed in the hard knocks teaser clip "base 3-4".
maybe im not explaining this well, so im going to try a picture instead. all of these guys are different human beings doing things differently, but they all come from the same 3-4 scheme daboll was on staff with for 7 seasons (3 sb wins) in NE.
Wink worked under Pees for 6 seasons in BAL before replacing him as DC.
Bowen worked under Pees for 3 seasons in TEN (and Vrabel for 2 years before that) before replacing him as DC.
look around the NFCE, all 3 other teams had changes at DC and all of them a lot bigger differences in who was replacing whom, and without looking it up i would guarantee that fewer position coaches were kept in place "teaching things the same way".
In the NFL change isn't an excuse, it is just the reality of how things go. Philly is on their 3rd DC in 4 years. id imagine a big selling point to hiring Bowen was likely that there was more similarity with him than any other option (similarities he has alluded to in his comments).
Exhaustive the Titan's defense (for all the games in 2023), watch this short video ....
Bowens is the ultimate "kitchen Sink Fighter"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F41eoZu-qF8
As far as Simmons not being instinctive, I strongly disagree (and I think Bowens would disagree too). I do agree with George, at 240, he's not going to get bullied by big tight ends and his recovery speed is unmatched by anybody playing at that weight.
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I think are getting into semantics now. I disagree with your POV. I also believe you are better at diagnosing defense than I am. So you have that advantage.
Wink's defense was rarely a 3-4 even if "called" that. Bowen seems more 4-3, even if called a 3-4. I admit I do not know Bowen's defense intimately. But he claims to only play with 4 on the DL(including ERs).
It is all speculation anyway, until the whistle blows in September.
There is not a DC in NFL or College that doesn't tailor his game day plan to his opponent.
bowen literally confirmed in the hard knocks teaser clip "base 3-4".
maybe im not explaining this well, so im going to try a picture instead. all of these guys are different human beings doing things differently, but they all come from the same 3-4 scheme daboll was on staff with for 7 seasons (3 sb wins) in NE.
Wink worked under Pees for 6 seasons in BAL before replacing him as DC.
Bowen worked under Pees for 3 seasons in TEN (and Vrabel for 2 years before that) before replacing him as DC.
look around the NFCE, all 3 other teams had changes at DC and all of them a lot bigger differences in who was replacing whom, and without looking it up i would guarantee that fewer position coaches were kept in place "teaching things the same way".
In the NFL change isn't an excuse, it is just the reality of how things go. Philly is on their 3rd DC in 4 years. id imagine a big selling point to hiring Bowen was likely that there was more similarity with him than any other option (similarities he has alluded to in his comments).
I guess you didn't see that I already said I saw you got it from Hard Knocks video.
I guess you didn't see that I already said I saw you got it from Hard Knocks video.
yep was eyes down on the flow chart - that's generally what he/vrabel ran in TEN too though, they just incorporated some jim schwartz wide 9 concepts for the pass rushers when he was there.
when they hired bowen i was surprised by how well his pedigree lined up with this job, and even more so when they were able to add burns. i wasnt familiar with him prior to that but out of all the rumored candidates other than bigger name like fangio he checked a lot of boxes.
+1
It's a free world, that's what blogs are for, they've been terrible for 10 years, blah blah blah. I guess you can't expect everyone to use sports as a distraction from everyday struggles, or even allow those that do to root for and enjoy the hope that each season provides.
An ignore button would allow each group to get what they're looking for without the tiresome interruptions from expected posters.
[quote] In comment 16540837 section125 said:
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I guess you didn't see that I already said I saw you got it from Hard Knocks video.
yep was eyes down on the flow chart - that's generally what he/vrabel ran in TEN too though, they just incorporated some jim schwartz wide 9 concepts for the pass rushers when he was there.
when they hired bowen i was surprised by how well his pedigree lined up with this job, and even more so when they were able to add burns. i wasnt familiar with him prior to that but out of all the rumored candidates other than bigger name like fangio he checked a lot of boxes. [/quote
I would have preferred Vrable himself! But, I like Bowen.
I would have preferred Vrable himself! But, I like Bowen.
dont think vrabel would have come here for that job, he took a consulting job with cleveland where stefanski was just extended (no coaching controversy), and id imagine this team is on his radar for potential jobs next year.
any coordinator job would have been risky for him since he will probably be a top choice for a bunch of jobs next January.
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I would have preferred Vrable himself! But, I like Bowen.
dont think vrabel would have come here for that job, he took a consulting job with cleveland where stefanski was just extended (no coaching controversy), and id imagine this team is on his radar for potential jobs next year.
any coordinator job would have been risky for him since he will probably be a top choice for a bunch of jobs next January.
Yep...collect his check this year and a new team next year.
Me too. He's young, athletic, inexpensive one year deal, has upside and has experience playing with many of the players and coaches from last year. Much preferred to a declining overpaid vet with future cap implications, or a rookie who needs work in the weight room and learning to be a pro.
Yeah, this all screams "instinctive player" and "star."
They are trying to find something for him to do. I question whether he even makes the team out of preseason.
Sure he is a bust, but we got him for nothing. He is not our bust. This is a great deal for the Giants, lets see if we can use the cheap player in a spot where he can produce.
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Cards spent the 8th pick in the entire draft on him and then dumped him for a 7th round pick before his first contract was up. We gave him a 1 year deal for 2,000,000.
Yeah, this all screams "instinctive player" and "star."
They are trying to find something for him to do. I question whether he even makes the team out of preseason.
Sure he is a bust, but we got him for nothing. He is not our bust. This is a great deal for the Giants, lets see if we can use the cheap player in a spot where he can produce.
Great way to put it: he's not our bust.
And to those who like him, you saw what I saw and what the tape and numbers show. He was around the ball ALOT for the number of snaps he played. He was 10th in tackles playing 1/3rd of the defensive snaps and half STs - probably had one of the higher tackles per snap on the team. He played a lot of STs and played well.
He played in just one system prior to here and didn't meet expectations. He was a bust for them relative to draft position only. For us he's a bonus ... solid player with unique capabilities and still a world of potential.
Giants allowed the 11th fewest yards to TEs last year and I think Simmons was a factor in that. The days of TEs ripping apart the defense are over and I like it, glad he's back.
kevin dotson was a bust in Pitt who got traded for by LAR for day 3 picks last year in training camp same as simmons. less than 9 months later he got paid $48m with half of it guaranteed. he's 3 years older than simmons.
that isnt an uncommon story, at least for well run orgs.
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And then he plays.
Giants allowed the 11th fewest yards to TEs last year and I think Simmons was a factor in that. The days of TEs ripping apart the defense are over and I like it, glad he's back.
I agree that Simmons helped defend TEs last season. However, the players who did the most defending TEs was McKinney.
Regardless, I strongly believe the Giants did the right thing letting him sign elsewhere at that cost.
I’m curious as to who else will fill that role now? Nubin seems to have the size and skill set to match up well with TEs. And I know Hawkins is a CB, but he also has intriguing length at 6-3 and is already listed at 195 lbs.
The Giants have a lot of bigger DBs
Having said that a hybrid safety is probably his best position
We can only hope he plays well for the Giants
Not being negative only telling it like I see it.
I saw a video with Carl Banks showing a couple of Simmons plays from last year and Carl is really high on him. He praised his football instincts and obvious speed.
On a team with a thin roster,having a versatile player with athleticism isn't a bad thing. Let's see what they can come up with for him. And I agree...having him cover anyone is better than the countless Edge dropbacks web have been subjected to the past few years.
Reasons why he was available and cheap. Let's see if they can can take advantage of his pluses and mitigate the weaknesses.
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Thought he played well at tines last year.
On a team with a thin roster,having a versatile player with athleticism isn't a bad thing. Let's see what they can come up with for him. And I agree...having him cover anyone is better than the countless Edge dropbacks web have been subjected to the past few years.
No, dumb unhappy crowd. People who don't understand what is unfolding on the field will use what detritus they heard from some "source" to derive an opinion. It's not thinking, it's parroting, and when group think takes over, forget having a discussion. Simmons smells, he was the 8th pick, he has no instincts and the Maras are telling the coaches to justify his 1 year tiny NFL contract because...reasons. You are better off asking a blind person what their favorite color is than looking for genuine discourse here in the barrel of dumb monkeys. Just toss a banana in and walk away.
He's still a bust who his previous team unloaded for a 7th round pick before his rookie contract was even up. Other GM's spoke with their checkbooks. He was a free agent, and he garnered a 1 year deal at 900k over the vet minimum from us. The League has spoken.
any team that wins is going to need at least a half dozen to dozen players near minimum salaries to contribute. that's how the salary cap works. it doesnt take a rocket scientist to call out the obvious that guys making the minimum or close to it aren't likely to be without faults. much harder for teams to get it right the other way around and fill those quality depth players cheaply, which is why its so hard to win in the nfl.
If McKinney was allowed to walk because he played a position of limited importance, then why did the Giants use #47 to find his replacement.
It's like that they lost both McKinney and the 2nd round pick at the same time. They could have used that 2nd to pick the most promising lineman, OL or DL they had ranked.
If McKinney was allowed to walk because he played a position of limited importance, then why did the Giants use #47 to find his replacement.
It's like that they lost both McKinney and the 2nd round pick at the same time. They could have used that 2nd to pick the most promising lineman, OL or DL they had ranked.
THIS^^
If McKinney was allowed to walk because he played a position of limited importance, then why did the Giants use #47 to find his replacement.
It's like that they lost both McKinney and the 2nd round pick at the same time. They could have used that 2nd to pick the most promising lineman, OL or DL they had ranked.
Well, I am sure Schoen wanted to keep McKinney and probably gave him a offer that worked for the Giants. But if Green Bay wants to make him the 3rd highest paid in the NFL then McKinney should take it and Schoen should say goodbye and find his replacement. Which is what happened.
You suggesting they just "lost McKinney and their 2nd round pick" isn't all that interesting an observation. Was there anything else?
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over it … pathetic group of ‘fans’.
THIS^^
You two are front-runners as pathetic fans. Maybe stop trying to be such good examples?
Agreed. He said 2 separate things:
*Base D has 3 DL, 2 OLB and 2 ILB.
*Simmons will play nickel CB on 1st and 2nd down.
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Those 2 statements have nothing to do with each other.
If they play an early down 11 personnel team and the Giants match with a nickel package, Simmons may be in the game at nickel CB. Essentially in the Deon Grant role back in 2011, when Fewell used those 3 S looks. Let him harrass the TE.
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over it … pathetic group of ‘fans’.
THIS^^
Was it a 'positive thread'? It seemed more like a nugget of information.
I thought Simmons-considering his role & what we gave up to get him-was fine in '23.
The Giants used to as well. Forget the older DB /S type. Grant ? It's a smart alignment w todays pass heavy game
Also he signed for peanuts. This site is filled w a lot of insanely out of touch psychotics who need a hobby off line. They got him for a 7th and are paying him like 2 million this year. Ffs