Blocking TE should be a supplement to the OL. The Giants had 3 to 4 and sometimes 5 OLmen who couldn't block. The OL was that bad.....especially while Thomas was out.
Blocking TE should be a supplement to the OL. The Giants had 3 to 4 and sometimes 5 OLmen who couldn't block. The OL was that bad.....especially while Thomas was out.
As a rookie, he impacted games with his receiving, even though he did not have that many catches. Last year, he was less dynamic. He looked more labored in his movements. Worse, he was a liability as a blocker. You seem to be minimizing the blocking element of TE play. If your TEs struggle blocking, it's tough to run an NFL offense. One failed block can blow up an entire play.
Sy's game reviews on Bellinger were very disappointing from the blocking angle. It's weird because coming out of college, Bellinger was known for his blocking.
Cager had four catches last year. His career pales in comparison to what Manhertz has done in his career. Cager has a chance, but he's been a tease up until this point.
I'm still a fan of Bellinger. I know he struggled last season, but I haven't forgotten his rookie campaign. As for Theo Johnson...sy says he could end up as the best TE in the draft, Bowers included. That's very intruiging.
with a high failure rate and a long development cycle. I wouldn't write off Bellinger or expect much from Johnson this year. The other guys are JAGS; whoever blocks stays.
Blocking TE should be a supplement to the OL. The Giants had 3 to 4 and sometimes 5 OLmen who couldn't block. The OL was that bad.....especially while Thomas was out.
Waller! He went from being the #1 TE to being an afterthought in the offense. Seemed to lose his confidence that he had the year before!
But fans who conveniently talk about his 2023 like he was horrible on the field have no idea what they are talking about.
In a crappy offense, dude was leading NFL TE's in receiving on a bad hamstring before he got hurt again.
He came back, played through multiple injuries and finished with solid numbers on a historically bad offense. Effort and ability were never a question.
I'm glad Waller retired, as the Giants can better use that cap money on someone more available...but let's not pretend he wasn't a very good pass catcher last year.
That's who I see making it at TE as well. More blocking. Cager is destined for the PS IMO.
The PS is used differently now and I'm still not completely used to it. How teams handle the PS very much affects the final 53. Cager was on and off the PS last year and he may be destined for that again.
Or not. As Eric wrote, Daboll and Kafka are surely salivating for one of them to serve in Wallers envisioned role. Even if the new improved Cager can, they want (need) a complete guy who can block too or it negates the point of a TE vs big WR. That hopefully is Belly building on his rookie year while Johnson develops into we'll see what.
Between the 53 and PS there's a good chance we keep all 6.
In a crappy offense, dude was leading NFL TE's in receiving on a bad hamstring before he got hurt again.
He was well behind Travis Kelce in receiving yards and receptions after Week 7. It was Week 8 that Waller exited early with injury (having gained only 4 yards).
Totals through Week 7:
Kelce 525 yards, 48 receptions, 4 TDs.
Waller 380 yards, 35 receptions, 1 TD.
And Kelce had missed Week 1, while Waller played all seven games through Week 7.
Waller was also slightly behind TJ Hockenson in yards after Week 7 (390 to 380).
Cager had four catches last year. His career pales in comparison to what Manhertz has done in his career. Cager has a chance, but he's been a tease up until this point.
We won't be short of receivers and as mentioned, Bellinger already is getting less opportunities because of the plethora of options. I personally like Manhertz who has been one of the highest rated TE's in the NFL for pass blocking. With this offensive line, we need that. Line him up next to Neal.
Stoll is also a pass blocking TE rated highly like Manhertz, he's just a smaller version of Manhertz. If either lines up in a game, I doubt it will be for going out for a pass unless Daboll thinks it will completely catch the defense off guard.
The Giants actions are telling us what they think of Bellinger.
In 2023 they spent a 3rd round pick + 12M to upgrade the pass catching talent at tight end. In 2024 they signed two blocking tight ends and spent a 4th round pick.
The Giants actions are telling us what they think of Bellinger.
In 2023 they spent a 3rd round pick + 12M to upgrade the pass catching talent at tight end. In 2024 they signed two blocking tight ends and spent a 4th round pick.
I guess, but you need at least 2 good (starting quality) TEs in today's NFL. Bellinger may be seen as more likely the 2nd of those TEs, but I believe he's good enough to be the 2nd TE.
Waller was brought on as receiver/playmaker
Theo J. was a good value where he selected
IMO, neither say much about their plans for Bellinger
The other TEs are blocking 1st TEs
opinions of bellinger seem more rooted in expectations than reality
with minimal expectations in 2022 he was a pleasant surprise, then in 2023 he was a disappointment even as he got stuck behind Waller and some of the more important rate metrics went up:
and that was while maintaining a ridiculous ~90% catch rate.
He actually had more big games in 2023 (30+ ypg) than he had in 2022, clearly visible to see that they just mostly came when waller was out in November.
from November on (when waller first exited lineup) Bellinger had 21 receptions for 233 yards in 9 games which is a higher ypg than his rookie year even though waller came back for some of those games. blocking may be a different story but PFF had his grades similar both years (though he did a lot more pass pro in 2023 than 2022 bc he was the 2nd TE).
Wasn’t the Vegas game when Daniel Jones went down for the season?
These blocking-only TEs sometimes get left all alone in the red zone. It's why you'll sometimes see a guy with 10 receptions and three TDs.
Good point. I know both Stoll and Manhertz can catch a ball because I've seen it. I guess their speed and route running, or more like, "lack thereof" explains why they've honed their skills and careers as specialty blockers. From all I've read, Stoll's expertise is in run blocking, whereas Manhertz excels in pass blocking. Nice to have two specialists like that on the team.
RE: Wasn’t the Vegas game when Daniel Jones went down for the season?
And then Bellinger came alive in terms of targets/production.
It is indeed.
Just spitnballin here, but I'm thinking he "came alive" (defined I suppose as catching more than a ball a game) against Vegas because Waller was out and Bellinger was the #1 TE.
Daniel Bellinger’s subpar season was a head-scratcher. Instead of taking a step forward, he seemed to go backwards as a receiver and blocker. This is a big year for him. Is he an NFL starter or simply back-up material?
I suggest that the fact that the serious injury in his rookie year was an EYE injury caused the rest of that year to be subdued. His second year it was all about Waller, robbing him of confidence, plus he had some injury problems. The NY media was attacking all the TE's.
SO, build up his confidence, make him the starter, give him plenty of rope to show what he can do, and we may be surprised. If not, plenty of options.
I'm still not convinced we've heard the last of him. Here's a couple of examples of why I believe that:
1) Brandon Aiyuk is refusing to play (or practice) for the $14M salary he is due in the final year (the option year) of his rookie contract because he wants a $30M/year extension and has supposedly turned down $26M/year.
2) OBJ managed to get $16M from the Ravens last year despite being an oft-injured player whose best days were behind him.
I use those two examples to demonstrate how the prices have changed for pass-catching threats even for those that aren't the #1 options on their team or nearing the end of their injury riddled careers (including negligible production in the two or three years prior). So I can understand (but not agree with) why Waller might feel like his $10M salary is a significant underpayment for what he believes his value to be. Like OBJ still believing he was worth $16M/year (and getting it!) despite marginal production in recent memory, Waller believes he's worth a helluva lot more than the ten measly million he is due.
I'm not betting on it, but it wouldn't surprise me if he is planning on a return from retirement at some point either just before the season starts or maybe at some point in-season. He could be hoping that the Giants have moved on by then (either in terms of cap room or personnel) and will simply release him or trade him to a team willing to pay him more. I'm not saying this is the likelihood, but it's far from being a long shot (maybe 50-50?).
p.s.--Which begs the question: what would you prefer the Giants do if Waller wants back in come September? I still see him as the lengthy, big bodied pass-catcher that's currently missing from the passing game. There are candidates to fill that role (Hodgins, Boykin, Robinson, Jiles, BFW, and let's not forget Cager), but none with his level of production when healthy. In fact, I wonder if maybe Dabs singled out Cager during minicamp as a message to Waller (given Cager is the guy on the roster who best duplicates Waller's measurables and skillset).
Is getting less targets his fault?
Blocking TE should be a supplement to the OL. The Giants had 3 to 4 and sometimes 5 OLmen who couldn't block. The OL was that bad.....especially while Thomas was out.
Is getting less targets his fault?
Blocking TE should be a supplement to the OL. The Giants had 3 to 4 and sometimes 5 OLmen who couldn't block. The OL was that bad.....especially while Thomas was out.
As a rookie, he impacted games with his receiving, even though he did not have that many catches. Last year, he was less dynamic. He looked more labored in his movements. Worse, he was a liability as a blocker. You seem to be minimizing the blocking element of TE play. If your TEs struggle blocking, it's tough to run an NFL offense. One failed block can blow up an entire play.
Sy's game reviews on Bellinger were very disappointing from the blocking angle. It's weird because coming out of college, Bellinger was known for his blocking.
Cager had four catches last year. His career pales in comparison to what Manhertz has done in his career. Cager has a chance, but he's been a tease up until this point.
Exactly. So done with “TE” who can only do half the job. Who’s he blocking at 220. A safety?. He’s giving away size to small LB.
Is getting less targets his fault?
Blocking TE should be a supplement to the OL. The Giants had 3 to 4 and sometimes 5 OLmen who couldn't block. The OL was that bad.....especially while Thomas was out.
Waller! He went from being the #1 TE to being an afterthought in the offense. Seemed to lose his confidence that he had the year before!
In a crappy offense, dude was leading NFL TE's in receiving on a bad hamstring before he got hurt again.
He came back, played through multiple injuries and finished with solid numbers on a historically bad offense. Effort and ability were never a question.
I'm glad Waller retired, as the Giants can better use that cap money on someone more available...but let's not pretend he wasn't a very good pass catcher last year.
That's who I see making it at TE as well. More blocking. Cager is destined for the PS IMO.
Like what happened to Ojulari?
I wondered about that. He just didn't look as fluid to me.
That's who I see making it at TE as well. More blocking. Cager is destined for the PS IMO.
The PS is used differently now and I'm still not completely used to it. How teams handle the PS very much affects the final 53. Cager was on and off the PS last year and he may be destined for that again.
Between the 53 and PS there's a good chance we keep all 6.
In a crappy offense, dude was leading NFL TE's in receiving on a bad hamstring before he got hurt again.
He was well behind Travis Kelce in receiving yards and receptions after Week 7. It was Week 8 that Waller exited early with injury (having gained only 4 yards).
Totals through Week 7:
Kelce 525 yards, 48 receptions, 4 TDs.
Waller 380 yards, 35 receptions, 1 TD.
And Kelce had missed Week 1, while Waller played all seven games through Week 7.
Waller was also slightly behind TJ Hockenson in yards after Week 7 (390 to 380).
Quote:
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Cager had four catches last year. His career pales in comparison to what Manhertz has done in his career. Cager has a chance, but he's been a tease up until this point.
We won't be short of receivers and as mentioned, Bellinger already is getting less opportunities because of the plethora of options. I personally like Manhertz who has been one of the highest rated TE's in the NFL for pass blocking. With this offensive line, we need that. Line him up next to Neal.
Stoll is also a pass blocking TE rated highly like Manhertz, he's just a smaller version of Manhertz. If either lines up in a game, I doubt it will be for going out for a pass unless Daboll thinks it will completely catch the defense off guard.
In 2023 they spent a 3rd round pick + 12M to upgrade the pass catching talent at tight end. In 2024 they signed two blocking tight ends and spent a 4th round pick.
In 2023 they spent a 3rd round pick + 12M to upgrade the pass catching talent at tight end. In 2024 they signed two blocking tight ends and spent a 4th round pick.
I guess, but you need at least 2 good (starting quality) TEs in today's NFL. Bellinger may be seen as more likely the 2nd of those TEs, but I believe he's good enough to be the 2nd TE.
Waller was brought on as receiver/playmaker
Theo J. was a good value where he selected
IMO, neither say much about their plans for Bellinger
The other TEs are blocking 1st TEs
ypc 8.9 --> 10.2
yac/r 5.1 --> 5.6
20+ yard receptions 2 --> 4
and that was while maintaining a ridiculous ~90% catch rate.
He actually had more big games in 2023 (30+ ypg) than he had in 2022, clearly visible to see that they just mostly came when waller was out in November.
from November on (when waller first exited lineup) Bellinger had 21 receptions for 233 yards in 9 games which is a higher ypg than his rookie year even though waller came back for some of those games. blocking may be a different story but PFF had his grades similar both years (though he did a lot more pass pro in 2023 than 2022 bc he was the 2nd TE).
Floor- solid #2 TE
Ceiling - Legit #1 TE
I agree that last year he looked less athletic, less smooth, but I still think his floor will be solid #2 TE
Good point. I know both Stoll and Manhertz can catch a ball because I've seen it. I guess their speed and route running, or more like, "lack thereof" explains why they've honed their skills and careers as specialty blockers. From all I've read, Stoll's expertise is in run blocking, whereas Manhertz excels in pass blocking. Nice to have two specialists like that on the team.
It is indeed.
Just spitnballin here, but I'm thinking he "came alive" (defined I suppose as catching more than a ball a game) against Vegas because Waller was out and Bellinger was the #1 TE.
I suggest that the fact that the serious injury in his rookie year was an EYE injury caused the rest of that year to be subdued. His second year it was all about Waller, robbing him of confidence, plus he had some injury problems. The NY media was attacking all the TE's.
SO, build up his confidence, make him the starter, give him plenty of rope to show what he can do, and we may be surprised. If not, plenty of options.
1) Brandon Aiyuk is refusing to play (or practice) for the $14M salary he is due in the final year (the option year) of his rookie contract because he wants a $30M/year extension and has supposedly turned down $26M/year.
2) OBJ managed to get $16M from the Ravens last year despite being an oft-injured player whose best days were behind him.
I use those two examples to demonstrate how the prices have changed for pass-catching threats even for those that aren't the #1 options on their team or nearing the end of their injury riddled careers (including negligible production in the two or three years prior). So I can understand (but not agree with) why Waller might feel like his $10M salary is a significant underpayment for what he believes his value to be. Like OBJ still believing he was worth $16M/year (and getting it!) despite marginal production in recent memory, Waller believes he's worth a helluva lot more than the ten measly million he is due.
I'm not betting on it, but it wouldn't surprise me if he is planning on a return from retirement at some point either just before the season starts or maybe at some point in-season. He could be hoping that the Giants have moved on by then (either in terms of cap room or personnel) and will simply release him or trade him to a team willing to pay him more. I'm not saying this is the likelihood, but it's far from being a long shot (maybe 50-50?).
p.s.--Which begs the question: what would you prefer the Giants do if Waller wants back in come September? I still see him as the lengthy, big bodied pass-catcher that's currently missing from the passing game. There are candidates to fill that role (Hodgins, Boykin, Robinson, Jiles, BFW, and let's not forget Cager), but none with his level of production when healthy. In fact, I wonder if maybe Dabs singled out Cager during minicamp as a message to Waller (given Cager is the guy on the roster who best duplicates Waller's measurables and skillset).