Except for my confirmation bias about John Mara. You really do get the sense that he’s trying to put his thumb on the scale and influence. His comment about having to draft a running back high if we get rid of Barkley confirmed to me that he really does not understand how to acquire players in this league
My interpretation of that exchange was this:
Mara is still very old school and thinks RB is a premium position. So, Schoen, trying to be respectful, let Mara have his say, and then remind him there was other solutions in free agency that could help the team.
To me, that was one of the main reveals in Episode 1. This organization still has an inordinate number of old school thinking when it comes to building a team...
He bought Jones. He had a chance for a graceful and/or accelerated exit this year and he passed.
He's now on record among the recent principals who have advocated for getting more weapons and better pass protection.
I think you're right. 3/$112.5M are the terms we should focus on. I'd say there is a good chance QB is drafted next April, but Jones is the placeholder for another year.
Yup. Jones coming back in 2025 is an easy call. Hopefully he gets his Mahomes, or at least his Kaepernick in the draft.
I don't think the Giants will have better QB options in the 2025 draft than they did in the 2024 draft - they likely won't be picking higher and there likely won't be several more top prospects - so if they do draft one it may be due in part to a greater sense of urgency. Who knows, maybe there will be 8 top-10 prospects and we they can just wait for any of them to fall?
I think there is just as much possibility that Daniel Jones plays out the full 4 year contract he signed as the Giants strater. All of these short term band-aid solutions may end up with Jones becoming a 10 year starter for this team while the Giants wait for the stars to align to deliver them there next Chosen One.
He bought Jones. He had a chance for a graceful and/or accelerated exit this year and he passed.
He's now on record among the recent principals who have advocated for getting more weapons and better pass protection.
I think you're right. 3/$112.5M are the terms we should focus on. I'd say there is a good chance QB is drafted next April, but Jones is the placeholder for another year.
Yup. Jones coming back in 2025 is an easy call. Hopefully he gets his Mahomes, or at least his Kaepernick in the draft.
I don't think the Giants will have better QB options in the 2025 draft than they did in the 2024 draft - they likely won't be picking higher and there likely won't be several more top prospects - so if they do draft one it may be due in part to a greater sense of urgency. Who knows, maybe there will be 8 top-10 prospects and we they can just wait for any of them to fall?
I think there is just as much possibility that Daniel Jones plays out the full 4 year contract he signed as the Giants strater. All of these short term band-aid solutions may end up with Jones becoming a 10 year starter for this team while the Giants wait for the stars to align to deliver them there next Chosen One.
The thought of ten years of Jones is a better vomit inducer than ipokak
Did Tim McDonnell current title, Director of Player Personnel look like a part of Schoen's inner circle like Brown, Hickey and Rossetti clearly are? Or did he seem to have a different relationship with Schoen than those other employees?
Did you see anything last night that would even give you a hint that this John Mara quote was true?
Quote:
"Tim is probably the most respected guy we have in this building. Coaches, front office staff and the general manager go to him and ask his advice on players because he is a good evaluator.
"He's worked his way up from the bottom and he's earned his stripes. He does not have any authority here."
If he doesn't have any authority than why would Dan Duggan write this in The Athletic?
Quote:
The comments from Mara and McDonnell show that there were influential skeptics of letting Barkley walk. The fact that the Giants ultimately did so supports Mara’s claim that he doesn’t strong-arm personnel decisions.
Tim Donnell influential skeptic with no authority, who by coincidence is next in line to succeed John Mara as President and Chief Executive Officer/Board Director of the New York Football Giants.
Did Tim McDonnell current title, Director of Player Personnel look like a part of Schoen's inner circle like Brown, Hickey and Rossetti clearly are? Or did he seem to have a different relationship with Schoen than those other employees?
Did you see anything last night that would even give you a hint that this John Mara quote was true?
Quote:
"Tim is probably the most respected guy we have in this building. Coaches, front office staff and the general manager go to him and ask his advice on players because he is a good evaluator.
"He's worked his way up from the bottom and he's earned his stripes. He does not have any authority here."
If he doesn't have any authority than why would Dan Duggan write this in The Athletic?
Quote:
The comments from Mara and McDonnell show that there were influential skeptics of letting Barkley walk. The fact that the Giants ultimately did so supports Mara’s claim that he doesn’t strong-arm personnel decisions.
Tim Donnell influential skeptic with no authority, who by coincidence is next in line to succeed John Mara as President and Chief Executive Officer/Board Director of the New York Football Giants.
No micromanaging here.
And yet has no decision making power as Barkley is not on the roster
And exactly how do you know he is being groomed to take over?
Seems like no matter the sport…you take issue with ownership no matter what the particular sport is
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
The reaction to Hard Knocks and the parsing of everything said that has gone on today on here is the exact reason why most teams don’t want to go on Hard Knocks.
Art knows where is bread is buttered.
If you're wondering why there's so little of Daboll...
I propose all Hard Knocks threads moving forward include the following disclaimer:
"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."
Months of work and hours of conversation boiled down to a few clips simply cannot yield certainty in any one area, so take the edits with a grain of salt. There's good info there, but I don't think anything can be viewed with end-all certainty.
Excellent post. We see what we want to see.
Yes, but we also saw what we saw.
Right or wrong (different subject), Mara was arguing a certain position. We saw it. It happened.
What is Mara supposed to do? Stand in the corner and say “yes boss”? He’s the president. He offers his opinion on big items. Just like the head of every other team or company in the world.
RE: RE: I am not taking away very much from the first episode
Except for my confirmation bias about John Mara. You really do get the sense that he’s trying to put his thumb on the scale and influence. His comment about having to draft a running back high if we get rid of Barkley confirmed to me that he really does not understand how to acquire players in this league
My interpretation of that exchange was this:
Mara is still very old school and thinks RB is a premium position. So, Schoen, trying to be respectful, let Mara have his say, and then remind him there was other solutions in free agency that could help the team.
To me, that was one of the main reveals in Episode 1. This organization still has an inordinate number of old school thinking when it comes to building a team...
I interpreted the same thing. For all that most of the NFL already understands, Schoen has work to do in educating his management. They still view RB as a premium position.
I'm finding I agree with Schoen more and more. DJ has a chance to prove himself. Our OL was historically bad 0 the data was unrefutable. for our run gamne, for all 3 or our QBs, etc. . . . I'm hopeful that we see some improvement this year just due to our OL.
I propose all Hard Knocks threads moving forward include the following disclaimer:
"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."
Months of work and hours of conversation boiled down to a few clips simply cannot yield certainty in any one area, so take the edits with a grain of salt. There's good info there, but I don't think anything can be viewed with end-all certainty.
Excellent post. We see what we want to see.
Yes, but we also saw what we saw.
Right or wrong (different subject), Mara was arguing a certain position. We saw it. It happened.
What is Mara supposed to do? Stand in the corner and say “yes boss”? He’s the president. He offers his opinion on big items. Just like the head of every other team or company in the world.
The head of a company with this as it's 10 year performance portfolio.
He is *supposed* do what's best for the company. His calls are what led to this.
Hopefully what wasn't aired is Schoen and Mara coming to a mutual agreement. Schoen winning out is not a good outcome. If Barkley has a good year and the Giants don't, that's when things will get ugly. That's when the I told you so-s come into play.
I view excessive swearing by grown men as a sign of immaturity and insecurity. There were a couple scenes where every other word out of his mouth was an F bomb. Low class.
I view excessive swearing by grown men as a sign of immaturity and insecurity. There were a couple scenes where every other word out of his mouth was an F bomb. Low class.
Inn most (not all) companies I've been in, cursing internally isn't a problem and is taken in context. When I'm in charge, I'm fine (again internally) with it. That's the culture I want. I've also found with younger groups it's not even a thought.
And this is a football team. You expect guys to metaphorically kill the other team, but not curse?
As for Barkley/RB scene, the fact that he wasn’t traded for a pick last season and now this short video skeptics-conversation are perfect examples of why you don’t want this ownership seriously involved in football decisions. They suck at them.
If the sentiment is ownership will have a say in big football decisions then we need to just hope that they are predominately aligned to what Schoen is already thinking. Otherwise we as fans have to pray for luck.
I will also convey that the Barkley decision isn’t really a big football decision. It was an easy one. Unless of course you can’t adapt to what has been going on in the NFL very well.
I view excessive swearing by grown men as a sign of immaturity and insecurity. There were a couple scenes where every other word out of his mouth was an F bomb. Low class.
I’m not crazy about excessive swearing in the workplace but it has been part of the NFL culture for a long, long time. What surprised me is it wasn’t bleeped out - if memory serves that wasn’t the case on previous iterations of HK.
As for Barkley/RB scene, the fact that he wasn’t traded for a pick last season and now this short video skeptics-conversation are perfect examples of why you don’t want this ownership seriously involved in football decisions. They suck at them.
If the sentiment is ownership will have a say in big football decisions then we need to just hope that they are predominately aligned to what Schoen is already thinking. Otherwise we as fans have to pray for luck.
I will also convey that the Barkley decision isn’t really a big football decision. It was an easy one. Unless of course you can’t adapt to what has been going on in the NFL very well.
Ha. Guess none of you were sailors....
I agree that out in public using the F word is not a good look. Internally, among friends, who really gives a crap?
RE: RE: Agree, not a good look for Schoen with his mouth.
As for Barkley/RB scene, the fact that he wasn’t traded for a pick last season and now this short video skeptics-conversation are perfect examples of why you don’t want this ownership seriously involved in football decisions. They suck at them.
If the sentiment is ownership will have a say in big football decisions then we need to just hope that they are predominately aligned to what Schoen is already thinking. Otherwise we as fans have to pray for luck.
I will also convey that the Barkley decision isn’t really a big football decision. It was an easy one. Unless of course you can’t adapt to what has been going on in the NFL very well.
Ha. Guess none of you were sailors....
I agree that out in public using the F word is not a good look. Internally, among friends, who really gives a crap?
Depends on the company you keep. Or the company others choose to keep.
That the new DC said the two smartest players on the field need to be the inside linebackers or did you just focus on F words, Barkley and Jones and ignore anything else.
Generally express their views on key decisions, even ones they have delegated. But where the NYG diverge from most organizations is the person at the top of the Giants organization didn’t grow up in the industry he works and has no talent for the work being done by the people he employs.
The Giants situation is more akin to a hospital than a bank. In a bank, you probably have a CEO who has worked in banking his entire life and has excelled at it. He may designate decisions to those below him, but his views are very pertinent and should be considered based on his experience.
In a hospital, your CEO probably has vast experience in hospital operations and finance. But they have heads of medical practices who report to them administratively, but would never consult with him on medical questions because that is not his training and background.
I don’t think Mara understands his value to the franchise is in the administration of the organization and the league, but he football decisions - outside of “we don’t want that individual in our building” - are best left to the people he hired who are trained in this profession. John Mara has been around football his whole life, but he has never had to make a scouting or coaching decision of consequence in his life. He understands the business of football, not the game of football.
I imagine that each industry has their own culture of language...
And in the sports industry, I'm quite certain that F-bombs are not only quite acceptable and natural, but are a form of communication that has a specific and unique purpose. As a high school teacher, in which I hear F-bombs regulary out of the mouths of students, I will maybe once or twice over the course of the year use it myself for effect. If I did it regularly it would make me a clown, but using it oh so rarely can be effective. When I worked on Wall Street, not only were F-bombs used regularly as adjectives, it was also not uncommon for it be used as a verb or even a noun. Wall Street execs love to get graphic when they are angry and when it comes to the movie industry, forget about it.
Ryan Dunleavy
@rydunleavy
Tim McDonnell asked the best question of this episode.
Whats our offensive identity going to be without Saquon?
NFL front office isnt the place for yes men. Everyone knew what Joe Schoen wanted to do.
One of #Giants lieutenants HAD TO raise the counterpoint
And here's my question (because I don't have HBO and am unable to hear the inflection in McDonnell's voice when asking the question), did he ask it as a question that he himself had or was it a case of pointing out to his boss that this is a question that needs to be asked and answered when making the decision?
Generally express their views on key decisions, even ones they have delegated. But where the NYG diverge from most organizations is the person at the top of the Giants organization didn’t grow up in the industry he works and has no talent for the work being done by the people he employs.
The Giants situation is more akin to a hospital than a bank. In a bank, you probably have a CEO who has worked in banking his entire life and has excelled at it. He may designate decisions to those below him, but his views are very pertinent and should be considered based on his experience.
In a hospital, your CEO probably has vast experience in hospital operations and finance. But they have heads of medical practices who report to them administratively, but would never consult with him on medical questions because that is not his training and background.
I don’t think Mara understands his value to the franchise is in the administration of the organization and the league, but he football decisions - outside of “we don’t want that individual in our building” - are best left to the people he hired who are trained in this profession. John Mara has been around football his whole life, but he has never had to make a scouting or coaching decision of consequence in his life. He understands the business of football, not the game of football.
When I listen to Dan Campbell, I am actually shocked when he doesn't use profanity! He literally breathes f-bombs!
I remember watching the Cowboys several years ago on the Prime series "All or Nothing" and hearing Jason Garrett drop f-bombs left and right and couldn't help but feel like it was his way of trying to be a tough guy. It felt completely inauthentic and I can't imagine anyone would ever be "intimidated" by such obvious theatrics. In contrast, when the Colts were on Hard Knocks, Frank Reich, who is devoutly religious, never once used profanity. And he had complete control over that locker room.
In watching Joe Schoen use profanity, it felt to me out of place. Schoen is a cerebral buttoned up man of high character. Yes, using profanity prudently as required to make critical points on momentous occasions would be impactful. But him overusing f-bombs in every sentence just makes him look inauthentic and foolish.
Generally express their views on key decisions, even ones they have delegated. But where the NYG diverge from most organizations is the person at the top of the Giants organization didn’t grow up in the industry he works and has no talent for the work being done by the people he employs.
The Giants situation is more akin to a hospital than a bank. In a bank, you probably have a CEO who has worked in banking his entire life and has excelled at it. He may designate decisions to those below him, but his views are very pertinent and should be considered based on his experience.
In a hospital, your CEO probably has vast experience in hospital operations and finance. But they have heads of medical practices who report to them administratively, but would never consult with him on medical questions because that is not his training and background.
I don’t think Mara understands his value to the franchise is in the administration of the organization and the league, but he football decisions - outside of “we don’t want that individual in our building” - are best left to the people he hired who are trained in this profession. John Mara has been around football his whole life, but he has never had to make a scouting or coaching decision of consequence in his life. He understands the business of football, not the game of football.
Great analogy!
And yet this site is full of folks who likely never played a down of football feel themselves to be fully qualified to sound off on what the team does and does not do!
Generally express their views on key decisions, even ones they have delegated. But where the NYG diverge from most organizations is the person at the top of the Giants organization didn’t grow up in the industry he works and has no talent for the work being done by the people he employs.
The Giants situation is more akin to a hospital than a bank. In a bank, you probably have a CEO who has worked in banking his entire life and has excelled at it. He may designate decisions to those below him, but his views are very pertinent and should be considered based on his experience.
In a hospital, your CEO probably has vast experience in hospital operations and finance. But they have heads of medical practices who report to them administratively, but would never consult with him on medical questions because that is not his training and background.
I don’t think Mara understands his value to the franchise is in the administration of the organization and the league, but he football decisions - outside of “we don’t want that individual in our building” - are best left to the people he hired who are trained in this profession. John Mara has been around football his whole life, but he has never had to make a scouting or coaching decision of consequence in his life. He understands the business of football, not the game of football.
Great analogy!
And yet this site is full of folks who likely never played a down of football feel themselves to be fully qualified to sound off on what the team does and does not do!
I'm not sure you understand the purpose of a fan forum.
That's awesome ... in the fact that I've paid this team "little to no mind" since the 40-0 game, that's how very little I keep up with them anymore.
I've been busy living my own live and fighting off the ladies. No, seriously. Anyway. Just tap the skies when the Giants become worth anything and Daddy 9 will speak some more golden knowledge.
I am impressed with myself that I'm finding out about the Hard Knocks thing just now, lol.
First of all - Patriots were never going to trade that pick away. It made no sense - if they did, they would have robbed whoever they gave the pick too.
Second - Schoen said - let's give Jones a competent OL and give him a fair chance to prove it - or Pivot. Pivot is clearly not saying he's the future of the franchise.
Weakest link on O was the line - 2 years ago, they used 2 of 1st 3 picks on OL. This offseason they used much of FA $ on proven OL starters. You're not doing anything on offense until you fix the front five. and as they have been attempting that - they have added some skill players Robinson, Hyatt, and Nabers, Johnson, even Bellinger. Not sure what some of you guys expect.
and not sure if it's been mentioned before but Bowen mentioned the importance of the 2 ILBs in his scheme.
I'll have to go back and watch, but I thought he said the inside linebacker and safety have to be the brains of the defense (nothing unusual there, usually why the ILB or S wears the green dot).
What we don't know is how much the second ILB will be on the field. From what I can tell, Vrabel/Bowen used a TON of nickel and dime, which suggests the second ILB comes off (or we may see more of the hybrid "money" backer such as Isaiah Simmons.
My gut still says the nickel corner (probably our 3rd rounder) will be playing more than the second ILB.
and not sure if it's been mentioned before but Bowen mentioned the importance of the 2 ILBs in his scheme.
I'll have to go back and watch, but I thought he said the inside linebacker and safety have to be the brains of the defense (nothing unusual there, usually why the ILB or S wears the green dot).
What we don't know is how much the second ILB will be on the field. From what I can tell, Vrabel/Bowen used a TON of nickel and dime, which suggests the second ILB comes off (or we may see more of the hybrid "money" backer such as Isaiah Simmons.
My gut still says the nickel corner (probably our 3rd rounder) will be playing more than the second ILB.
this is correct. here was his player usage in TEN on the defense that stayed the healthiest and had the most success (2021). i think this is what would be considered close to his "ideal" personnel based on everything we've heard.
s kevin byard 1050 snaps (96%)
de harold landry 981 snaps (89%)
dl jeffrey simmons 932 (85%)
cb jackrabbit jenkins 861 (78%)
cb kristian fulton 737 (67%)
dl denico autry 709 (64%)
s amani hooker 704 (64%)
lb david long 634 (57%)
cb elijah molden 632 (57%)
note that this is:
3 pass rushers (likely to be burns, thibs, lawrence)
5 defensive backs (competition tbd)
1 linebacker (this will be okereke, not sure who wore green dot for him in 2021 but in 2023 it was shaair)
the other 10th/11th/12th most used players were an assortment rotating run defenders/2nd linebackers/pass rushers. rashaad evans, jayon brown, bud dupree, and a 6th db. these are likely to be mcfadden, simmons, jordan phillips, ojulari, nacho, etc.
and not sure if it's been mentioned before but Bowen mentioned the importance of the 2 ILBs in his scheme.
I'll have to go back and watch, but I thought he said the inside linebacker and safety have to be the brains of the defense (nothing unusual there, usually why the ILB or S wears the green dot).
What we don't know is how much the second ILB will be on the field. From what I can tell, Vrabel/Bowen used a TON of nickel and dime, which suggests the second ILB comes off (or we may see more of the hybrid "money" backer such as Isaiah Simmons.
My gut still says the nickel corner (probably our 3rd rounder) will be playing more than the second ILB.
and not sure if it's been mentioned before but Bowen mentioned the importance of the 2 ILBs in his scheme.
I'll have to go back and watch, but I thought he said the inside linebacker and safety have to be the brains of the defense (nothing unusual there, usually why the ILB or S wears the green dot).
What we don't know is how much the second ILB will be on the field. From what I can tell, Vrabel/Bowen used a TON of nickel and dime, which suggests the second ILB comes off (or we may see more of the hybrid "money" backer such as Isaiah Simmons.
My gut still says the nickel corner (probably our 3rd rounder) will be playing more than the second ILB.
He said the inside backers.
remember the context - he was talking about what he looks in for his defense so the personnel dept could go find more players for him. he wasn't going to say "i only need 1 smart inside linebacker so we are set because we have okereke". i think he was describing generally the traits most important for any inside linebacker on the roster, not necessarily the importance of deploying 2 of them on the field at the same as a specifically key element of his defense. as eric pointed out his history does not suggest that he's done that.
It’s the an acronym which looms above and behind all the players in their nyg meeting room. Trail? Mission accomplished, because that is all they have done for ten years…trailing the league in all categories….it’s got to be improved…… how about: “K.S.A.” (Kick Some Ass).
That might be the dumbest thing I've seen in a while as a motivation tool/phrase.
remember the context - he was talking about what he looks in for his defense so the personnel dept could go find more players for him. he wasn't going to say "i only need 1 smart inside linebacker so we are set because we have okereke". i think he was describing generally the traits most important for any inside linebacker on the roster, not necessarily the importance of deploying 2 of them on the field at the same as a specifically key element of his defense. as eric pointed out his history does not suggest that he's done that.
Yes - thanks for posting the percentages. Super curious to see the packages we open camp with now that Bowen's seen everypne in OTAs.
After watching the episode is that the Front Office is undecided on whether Jones is the Franchise QB. Here are 4 quotes from Schoen about Jones in the episode, two positive and two negative:
(+) "He didn't have much of a chance this year... You could have Pat Mahomes and he can't f-ing win behind that (O-line)" (+) "I'm not giving up on him. He's under contract for 3 more years."
vs. (-) "3 Serious Injuries in 2 years. We need to protect ourselves because best predictor of the future is the past" (-) "Is he our guy for the next 10 years? Or do we need to pivot and find somebody else?"
IMO the waffling back and forth on Jones has been the biggest weakness of the Schoen era. The quotes from the show match up to the actions taken from this front office. Here's a quick recap since Schoen took over as GM:
2022 - Decline the 5th year option, we're moving on at QB. 2023 - Actually, we were wrong. Here's $160MM over the next 4 years. 2024 - Oh no, we were wrong again. Neck and ACL injuries are very concerning. He's gotta prove that he's worth the contract we gave him. 2025+ - Pray he's the Franchise QB, else we pivot.
Declining Jones' 5th year option was one of the 1st major decisions by Schoen. Here were the different options at the time:
(A) Decline option -> QB proves it in 2022 -> New contract
(B) Decline option -> QB doesn't prove it in 2022 -> Pivot to someone else
(C) Pick up the 2023 option (for ~$27M) to play out the 2022 & 2023 seasons -> Decide to cut bait or give out new contract
In hindsight (C) would have been the best choice, as he would have played 2023 on a 'prove-it' year rather than 2022. That would have given the front office more valuable information, such as the three serious injuries in two years. It would have allowed us to move on from Jones in 2024 with a clean financial slate. But instead he went with option (A) as Jones showed enough in 2022 to merit the $160MM 4 year contract. Schoen can't be blamed for drafting Jones, but he should take the blame for giving him the 2nd contract.
By his 2nd year as Buffalo's Assistant GM Schoen had already drafted Allen to be the Franchise QB. But now in year #3 of the NYG Schoen era we've given Top 10 money to a QB who probably isn't a franchise QB. We cannot realistically get out of his contract until 2025 at the earliest (and that will involve lots of dead cap), so this upcoming season is essentially 2022 all over again: a make or break 'prove-it' year for Jones.
i think the thing i agree with most w/r/t schoen is that he tends to be a little more reactive than proactive. barkley saga is another example of that. avoiding more drama this year was the only decision after indulging so much last year. had he been more proactive maybe he could have been the gm to get devin singletary for $2m last year, plus maybe some draft picks trading barkley 1 year younger off a good healthy season.
in such a year to year league i dont think reactive is the worst "negative" though.
No, stupid is the worst negative. Like giving Daniel Jones that
Declining Jones' 5th year option was one of the 1st major decisions by Schoen. Here were the different options at the time:
(A) Decline option -> QB proves it in 2022 -> New contract
(B) Decline option -> QB doesn't prove it in 2022 -> Pivot to someone else
(C) Pick up the 2023 option (for ~$27M) to play out the 2022 & 2023 seasons -> Decide to cut bait or give out new contract
In hindsight (C) would have been the best choice, as he would have played 2023 on a 'prove-it' year rather than 2022. That would have given the front office more valuable information, such as the three serious injuries in two years. It would have allowed us to move on from Jones in 2024 with a clean financial slate. But instead he went with option (A) as Jones showed enough in 2022 to merit the $160MM 4 year contract. Schoen can't be blamed for drafting Jones, but he should take the blame for giving him the 2nd contract.
Schoen owns that contract for sure. If you add in your view on how Schoen handled the 5th year option, Schoen has mismanaged the QB issue three straight years.
I tend to give Schoen a pass on not picking up the 5th year option - a reasonable case can be made to decline it - but the new contract and making the decision to roll with Jones into 2024 were bad conclusions, IMV. And it makes me question Schoen remaining as GM.
Brandon Beane always struck me as a GM who practices the philosophy "fortune favors the brave". He goes for it. I was hoping much of that rubbed off on Schoen.
but that is why we have been a disaster since Accorsi retired. Schoen has experience as does Brown. Whether they make the right moves is up in the air. If Daniel Jones flops their run is over. Having only one person of color in the room in todays NFL stuck out to me. How many of the other guys are nepo? Maybe this is the way in all NFL brain trusts. No former players in the room. Not one? Not one is qualified to offer advice? Why isn't Carl Banks in the room to give his perspective? We look rudderless in my opinion as Mara hovers over it all.
Brandon Beane always struck me as a GM who practices the philosophy "fortune favors the brave". He goes for it. I was hoping much of that rubbed off on Schoen.
He's going for it with Daniel Jones, Brian Burns, and Malik Nabers.
Tom in MA, your analysis is based on the premise that Schoen declining Jones option meant he wanted to move on at QB.
But that's false. Because Jones wasn't Schoen's pick, and it was weeks after Schoen's hiring, declining the option was the default decision for any new GM.
My interpretation of that exchange was this:
Mara is still very old school and thinks RB is a premium position. So, Schoen, trying to be respectful, let Mara have his say, and then remind him there was other solutions in free agency that could help the team.
To me, that was one of the main reveals in Episode 1. This organization still has an inordinate number of old school thinking when it comes to building a team...
Quote:
He bought Jones. He had a chance for a graceful and/or accelerated exit this year and he passed.
He's now on record among the recent principals who have advocated for getting more weapons and better pass protection.
I think you're right. 3/$112.5M are the terms we should focus on. I'd say there is a good chance QB is drafted next April, but Jones is the placeholder for another year.
Yup. Jones coming back in 2025 is an easy call. Hopefully he gets his Mahomes, or at least his Kaepernick in the draft.
I don't think the Giants will have better QB options in the 2025 draft than they did in the 2024 draft - they likely won't be picking higher and there likely won't be several more top prospects - so if they do draft one it may be due in part to a greater sense of urgency. Who knows, maybe there will be 8 top-10 prospects and we they can just wait for any of them to fall?
I think there is just as much possibility that Daniel Jones plays out the full 4 year contract he signed as the Giants strater. All of these short term band-aid solutions may end up with Jones becoming a 10 year starter for this team while the Giants wait for the stars to align to deliver them there next Chosen One.
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In comment 16547948 Sean said:
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He bought Jones. He had a chance for a graceful and/or accelerated exit this year and he passed.
He's now on record among the recent principals who have advocated for getting more weapons and better pass protection.
I think you're right. 3/$112.5M are the terms we should focus on. I'd say there is a good chance QB is drafted next April, but Jones is the placeholder for another year.
Yup. Jones coming back in 2025 is an easy call. Hopefully he gets his Mahomes, or at least his Kaepernick in the draft.
I don't think the Giants will have better QB options in the 2025 draft than they did in the 2024 draft - they likely won't be picking higher and there likely won't be several more top prospects - so if they do draft one it may be due in part to a greater sense of urgency. Who knows, maybe there will be 8 top-10 prospects and we they can just wait for any of them to fall?
I think there is just as much possibility that Daniel Jones plays out the full 4 year contract he signed as the Giants strater. All of these short term band-aid solutions may end up with Jones becoming a 10 year starter for this team while the Giants wait for the stars to align to deliver them there next Chosen One.
The thought of ten years of Jones is a better vomit inducer than ipokak
Did you see anything last night that would even give you a hint that this John Mara quote was true?
"He's worked his way up from the bottom and he's earned his stripes. He does not have any authority here."
If he doesn't have any authority than why would Dan Duggan write this in The Athletic?
Tim Donnell influential skeptic with no authority, who by coincidence is next in line to succeed John Mara as President and Chief Executive Officer/Board Director of the New York Football Giants.
No micromanaging here.
Did you see anything last night that would even give you a hint that this John Mara quote was true?
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"Tim is probably the most respected guy we have in this building. Coaches, front office staff and the general manager go to him and ask his advice on players because he is a good evaluator.
"He's worked his way up from the bottom and he's earned his stripes. He does not have any authority here."
If he doesn't have any authority than why would Dan Duggan write this in The Athletic?
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The comments from Mara and McDonnell show that there were influential skeptics of letting Barkley walk. The fact that the Giants ultimately did so supports Mara’s claim that he doesn’t strong-arm personnel decisions.
Tim Donnell influential skeptic with no authority, who by coincidence is next in line to succeed John Mara as President and Chief Executive Officer/Board Director of the New York Football Giants.
No micromanaging here.
And yet has no decision making power as Barkley is not on the roster
And exactly how do you know he is being groomed to take over?
Seems like no matter the sport…you take issue with ownership no matter what the particular sport is
100%.
As long as the Maras own this team, we will get what we get.
Some good. Mostly bad.
@art_stapleton
The reaction to Hard Knocks and the parsing of everything said that has gone on today on here is the exact reason why most teams don’t want to go on Hard Knocks.
Art knows where is bread is buttered.
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In comment 16547752 GP said:
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I propose all Hard Knocks threads moving forward include the following disclaimer:
"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."
Months of work and hours of conversation boiled down to a few clips simply cannot yield certainty in any one area, so take the edits with a grain of salt. There's good info there, but I don't think anything can be viewed with end-all certainty.
Excellent post. We see what we want to see.
Yes, but we also saw what we saw.
Right or wrong (different subject), Mara was arguing a certain position. We saw it. It happened.
What is Mara supposed to do? Stand in the corner and say “yes boss”? He’s the president. He offers his opinion on big items. Just like the head of every other team or company in the world.
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Except for my confirmation bias about John Mara. You really do get the sense that he’s trying to put his thumb on the scale and influence. His comment about having to draft a running back high if we get rid of Barkley confirmed to me that he really does not understand how to acquire players in this league
My interpretation of that exchange was this:
Mara is still very old school and thinks RB is a premium position. So, Schoen, trying to be respectful, let Mara have his say, and then remind him there was other solutions in free agency that could help the team.
To me, that was one of the main reveals in Episode 1. This organization still has an inordinate number of old school thinking when it comes to building a team...
I interpreted the same thing. For all that most of the NFL already understands, Schoen has work to do in educating his management. They still view RB as a premium position.
I'm finding I agree with Schoen more and more. DJ has a chance to prove himself. Our OL was historically bad 0 the data was unrefutable. for our run gamne, for all 3 or our QBs, etc. . . . I'm hopeful that we see some improvement this year just due to our OL.
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In comment 16547824 Chris in Philly said:
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In comment 16547752 GP said:
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I propose all Hard Knocks threads moving forward include the following disclaimer:
"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."
Months of work and hours of conversation boiled down to a few clips simply cannot yield certainty in any one area, so take the edits with a grain of salt. There's good info there, but I don't think anything can be viewed with end-all certainty.
Excellent post. We see what we want to see.
Yes, but we also saw what we saw.
Right or wrong (different subject), Mara was arguing a certain position. We saw it. It happened.
What is Mara supposed to do? Stand in the corner and say “yes boss”? He’s the president. He offers his opinion on big items. Just like the head of every other team or company in the world.
The head of a company with this as it's 10 year performance portfolio.
He is *supposed* do what's best for the company. His calls are what led to this.
Potty mouth joe
And this is a football team. You expect guys to metaphorically kill the other team, but not curse?
As for Barkley/RB scene, the fact that he wasn’t traded for a pick last season and now this short video skeptics-conversation are perfect examples of why you don’t want this ownership seriously involved in football decisions. They suck at them.
If the sentiment is ownership will have a say in big football decisions then we need to just hope that they are predominately aligned to what Schoen is already thinking. Otherwise we as fans have to pray for luck.
I will also convey that the Barkley decision isn’t really a big football decision. It was an easy one. Unless of course you can’t adapt to what has been going on in the NFL very well.
I’m not crazy about excessive swearing in the workplace but it has been part of the NFL culture for a long, long time. What surprised me is it wasn’t bleeped out - if memory serves that wasn’t the case on previous iterations of HK.
I doubt a single person on BBI expects McDonnell to say something intelligent or strategic on any episode of HK.
As for Barkley/RB scene, the fact that he wasn’t traded for a pick last season and now this short video skeptics-conversation are perfect examples of why you don’t want this ownership seriously involved in football decisions. They suck at them.
If the sentiment is ownership will have a say in big football decisions then we need to just hope that they are predominately aligned to what Schoen is already thinking. Otherwise we as fans have to pray for luck.
I will also convey that the Barkley decision isn’t really a big football decision. It was an easy one. Unless of course you can’t adapt to what has been going on in the NFL very well.
Ha. Guess none of you were sailors....
I agree that out in public using the F word is not a good look. Internally, among friends, who really gives a crap?
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Hopefully his wife or kids let’s him know.
As for Barkley/RB scene, the fact that he wasn’t traded for a pick last season and now this short video skeptics-conversation are perfect examples of why you don’t want this ownership seriously involved in football decisions. They suck at them.
If the sentiment is ownership will have a say in big football decisions then we need to just hope that they are predominately aligned to what Schoen is already thinking. Otherwise we as fans have to pray for luck.
I will also convey that the Barkley decision isn’t really a big football decision. It was an easy one. Unless of course you can’t adapt to what has been going on in the NFL very well.
Ha. Guess none of you were sailors....
I agree that out in public using the F word is not a good look. Internally, among friends, who really gives a crap?
Depends on the company you keep. Or the company others choose to keep.
The Giants situation is more akin to a hospital than a bank. In a bank, you probably have a CEO who has worked in banking his entire life and has excelled at it. He may designate decisions to those below him, but his views are very pertinent and should be considered based on his experience.
In a hospital, your CEO probably has vast experience in hospital operations and finance. But they have heads of medical practices who report to them administratively, but would never consult with him on medical questions because that is not his training and background.
I don’t think Mara understands his value to the franchise is in the administration of the organization and the league, but he football decisions - outside of “we don’t want that individual in our building” - are best left to the people he hired who are trained in this profession. John Mara has been around football his whole life, but he has never had to make a scouting or coaching decision of consequence in his life. He understands the business of football, not the game of football.
How they talk on Wall Street
And in Hollywood
@rydunleavy
Tim McDonnell asked the best question of this episode.
Whats our offensive identity going to be without Saquon?
NFL front office isnt the place for yes men. Everyone knew what Joe Schoen wanted to do.
One of #Giants lieutenants HAD TO raise the counterpoint
The Giants situation is more akin to a hospital than a bank. In a bank, you probably have a CEO who has worked in banking his entire life and has excelled at it. He may designate decisions to those below him, but his views are very pertinent and should be considered based on his experience.
In a hospital, your CEO probably has vast experience in hospital operations and finance. But they have heads of medical practices who report to them administratively, but would never consult with him on medical questions because that is not his training and background.
I don’t think Mara understands his value to the franchise is in the administration of the organization and the league, but he football decisions - outside of “we don’t want that individual in our building” - are best left to the people he hired who are trained in this profession. John Mara has been around football his whole life, but he has never had to make a scouting or coaching decision of consequence in his life. He understands the business of football, not the game of football.
Great analogy!
I remember watching the Cowboys several years ago on the Prime series "All or Nothing" and hearing Jason Garrett drop f-bombs left and right and couldn't help but feel like it was his way of trying to be a tough guy. It felt completely inauthentic and I can't imagine anyone would ever be "intimidated" by such obvious theatrics. In contrast, when the Colts were on Hard Knocks, Frank Reich, who is devoutly religious, never once used profanity. And he had complete control over that locker room.
In watching Joe Schoen use profanity, it felt to me out of place. Schoen is a cerebral buttoned up man of high character. Yes, using profanity prudently as required to make critical points on momentous occasions would be impactful. But him overusing f-bombs in every sentence just makes him look inauthentic and foolish.
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Generally express their views on key decisions, even ones they have delegated. But where the NYG diverge from most organizations is the person at the top of the Giants organization didn’t grow up in the industry he works and has no talent for the work being done by the people he employs.
The Giants situation is more akin to a hospital than a bank. In a bank, you probably have a CEO who has worked in banking his entire life and has excelled at it. He may designate decisions to those below him, but his views are very pertinent and should be considered based on his experience.
In a hospital, your CEO probably has vast experience in hospital operations and finance. But they have heads of medical practices who report to them administratively, but would never consult with him on medical questions because that is not his training and background.
I don’t think Mara understands his value to the franchise is in the administration of the organization and the league, but he football decisions - outside of “we don’t want that individual in our building” - are best left to the people he hired who are trained in this profession. John Mara has been around football his whole life, but he has never had to make a scouting or coaching decision of consequence in his life. He understands the business of football, not the game of football.
Great analogy!
And yet this site is full of folks who likely never played a down of football feel themselves to be fully qualified to sound off on what the team does and does not do!
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In comment 16548238 Mike from Ohio said:
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Generally express their views on key decisions, even ones they have delegated. But where the NYG diverge from most organizations is the person at the top of the Giants organization didn’t grow up in the industry he works and has no talent for the work being done by the people he employs.
The Giants situation is more akin to a hospital than a bank. In a bank, you probably have a CEO who has worked in banking his entire life and has excelled at it. He may designate decisions to those below him, but his views are very pertinent and should be considered based on his experience.
In a hospital, your CEO probably has vast experience in hospital operations and finance. But they have heads of medical practices who report to them administratively, but would never consult with him on medical questions because that is not his training and background.
I don’t think Mara understands his value to the franchise is in the administration of the organization and the league, but he football decisions - outside of “we don’t want that individual in our building” - are best left to the people he hired who are trained in this profession. John Mara has been around football his whole life, but he has never had to make a scouting or coaching decision of consequence in his life. He understands the business of football, not the game of football.
Great analogy!
And yet this site is full of folks who likely never played a down of football feel themselves to be fully qualified to sound off on what the team does and does not do!
I'm not sure you understand the purpose of a fan forum.
That's awesome ... in the fact that I've paid this team "little to no mind" since the 40-0 game, that's how very little I keep up with them anymore.
I've been busy living my own live and fighting off the ladies. No, seriously. Anyway. Just tap the skies when the Giants become worth anything and Daddy 9 will speak some more golden knowledge.
I am impressed with myself that I'm finding out about the Hard Knocks thing just now, lol.
Second - Schoen said - let's give Jones a competent OL and give him a fair chance to prove it - or Pivot. Pivot is clearly not saying he's the future of the franchise.
I'll have to go back and watch, but I thought he said the inside linebacker and safety have to be the brains of the defense (nothing unusual there, usually why the ILB or S wears the green dot).
What we don't know is how much the second ILB will be on the field. From what I can tell, Vrabel/Bowen used a TON of nickel and dime, which suggests the second ILB comes off (or we may see more of the hybrid "money" backer such as Isaiah Simmons.
My gut still says the nickel corner (probably our 3rd rounder) will be playing more than the second ILB.
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and not sure if it's been mentioned before but Bowen mentioned the importance of the 2 ILBs in his scheme.
I'll have to go back and watch, but I thought he said the inside linebacker and safety have to be the brains of the defense (nothing unusual there, usually why the ILB or S wears the green dot).
What we don't know is how much the second ILB will be on the field. From what I can tell, Vrabel/Bowen used a TON of nickel and dime, which suggests the second ILB comes off (or we may see more of the hybrid "money" backer such as Isaiah Simmons.
My gut still says the nickel corner (probably our 3rd rounder) will be playing more than the second ILB.
this is correct. here was his player usage in TEN on the defense that stayed the healthiest and had the most success (2021). i think this is what would be considered close to his "ideal" personnel based on everything we've heard.
s kevin byard 1050 snaps (96%)
de harold landry 981 snaps (89%)
dl jeffrey simmons 932 (85%)
cb jackrabbit jenkins 861 (78%)
cb kristian fulton 737 (67%)
dl denico autry 709 (64%)
s amani hooker 704 (64%)
lb david long 634 (57%)
cb elijah molden 632 (57%)
note that this is:
3 pass rushers (likely to be burns, thibs, lawrence)
5 defensive backs (competition tbd)
1 linebacker (this will be okereke, not sure who wore green dot for him in 2021 but in 2023 it was shaair)
the other 10th/11th/12th most used players were an assortment rotating run defenders/2nd linebackers/pass rushers. rashaad evans, jayon brown, bud dupree, and a 6th db. these are likely to be mcfadden, simmons, jordan phillips, ojulari, nacho, etc.
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and not sure if it's been mentioned before but Bowen mentioned the importance of the 2 ILBs in his scheme.
I'll have to go back and watch, but I thought he said the inside linebacker and safety have to be the brains of the defense (nothing unusual there, usually why the ILB or S wears the green dot).
What we don't know is how much the second ILB will be on the field. From what I can tell, Vrabel/Bowen used a TON of nickel and dime, which suggests the second ILB comes off (or we may see more of the hybrid "money" backer such as Isaiah Simmons.
My gut still says the nickel corner (probably our 3rd rounder) will be playing more than the second ILB.
He said the inside backers.
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In comment 16548614 bc4life said:
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and not sure if it's been mentioned before but Bowen mentioned the importance of the 2 ILBs in his scheme.
I'll have to go back and watch, but I thought he said the inside linebacker and safety have to be the brains of the defense (nothing unusual there, usually why the ILB or S wears the green dot).
What we don't know is how much the second ILB will be on the field. From what I can tell, Vrabel/Bowen used a TON of nickel and dime, which suggests the second ILB comes off (or we may see more of the hybrid "money" backer such as Isaiah Simmons.
My gut still says the nickel corner (probably our 3rd rounder) will be playing more than the second ILB.
He said the inside backers.
remember the context - he was talking about what he looks in for his defense so the personnel dept could go find more players for him. he wasn't going to say "i only need 1 smart inside linebacker so we are set because we have okereke". i think he was describing generally the traits most important for any inside linebacker on the roster, not necessarily the importance of deploying 2 of them on the field at the same as a specifically key element of his defense. as eric pointed out his history does not suggest that he's done that.
That might be the dumbest thing I've seen in a while as a motivation tool/phrase.
It was embarrassing...
<snip>
He said the inside backers.
remember the context - he was talking about what he looks in for his defense so the personnel dept could go find more players for him. he wasn't going to say "i only need 1 smart inside linebacker so we are set because we have okereke". i think he was describing generally the traits most important for any inside linebacker on the roster, not necessarily the importance of deploying 2 of them on the field at the same as a specifically key element of his defense. as eric pointed out his history does not suggest that he's done that.
Yes - thanks for posting the percentages. Super curious to see the packages we open camp with now that Bowen's seen everypne in OTAs.
(+) "He didn't have much of a chance this year... You could have Pat Mahomes and he can't f-ing win behind that (O-line)"
(+) "I'm not giving up on him. He's under contract for 3 more years."
vs.
(-) "3 Serious Injuries in 2 years. We need to protect ourselves because best predictor of the future is the past"
(-) "Is he our guy for the next 10 years? Or do we need to pivot and find somebody else?"
IMO the waffling back and forth on Jones has been the biggest weakness of the Schoen era. The quotes from the show match up to the actions taken from this front office. Here's a quick recap since Schoen took over as GM:
2022 - Decline the 5th year option, we're moving on at QB.
2023 - Actually, we were wrong. Here's $160MM over the next 4 years.
2024 - Oh no, we were wrong again. Neck and ACL injuries are very concerning. He's gotta prove that he's worth the contract we gave him.
2025+ - Pray he's the Franchise QB, else we pivot.
Declining Jones' 5th year option was one of the 1st major decisions by Schoen. Here were the different options at the time:
(A) Decline option -> QB proves it in 2022 -> New contract
(B) Decline option -> QB doesn't prove it in 2022 -> Pivot to someone else
(C) Pick up the 2023 option (for ~$27M) to play out the 2022 & 2023 seasons -> Decide to cut bait or give out new contract
In hindsight (C) would have been the best choice, as he would have played 2023 on a 'prove-it' year rather than 2022. That would have given the front office more valuable information, such as the three serious injuries in two years. It would have allowed us to move on from Jones in 2024 with a clean financial slate. But instead he went with option (A) as Jones showed enough in 2022 to merit the $160MM 4 year contract. Schoen can't be blamed for drafting Jones, but he should take the blame for giving him the 2nd contract.
By his 2nd year as Buffalo's Assistant GM Schoen had already drafted Allen to be the Franchise QB. But now in year #3 of the NYG Schoen era we've given Top 10 money to a QB who probably isn't a franchise QB. We cannot realistically get out of his contract until 2025 at the earliest (and that will involve lots of dead cap), so this upcoming season is essentially 2022 all over again: a make or break 'prove-it' year for Jones.
in such a year to year league i dont think reactive is the worst "negative" though.
Reactive isn’t helpful either as it keeps you with just enough wins to not control your own destiny in the draft.
Declining Jones' 5th year option was one of the 1st major decisions by Schoen. Here were the different options at the time:
(A) Decline option -> QB proves it in 2022 -> New contract
(B) Decline option -> QB doesn't prove it in 2022 -> Pivot to someone else
(C) Pick up the 2023 option (for ~$27M) to play out the 2022 & 2023 seasons -> Decide to cut bait or give out new contract
In hindsight (C) would have been the best choice, as he would have played 2023 on a 'prove-it' year rather than 2022. That would have given the front office more valuable information, such as the three serious injuries in two years. It would have allowed us to move on from Jones in 2024 with a clean financial slate. But instead he went with option (A) as Jones showed enough in 2022 to merit the $160MM 4 year contract. Schoen can't be blamed for drafting Jones, but he should take the blame for giving him the 2nd contract.
Schoen owns that contract for sure. If you add in your view on how Schoen handled the 5th year option, Schoen has mismanaged the QB issue three straight years.
I tend to give Schoen a pass on not picking up the 5th year option - a reasonable case can be made to decline it - but the new contract and making the decision to roll with Jones into 2024 were bad conclusions, IMV. And it makes me question Schoen remaining as GM.
Brandon Beane always struck me as a GM who practices the philosophy "fortune favors the brave". He goes for it. I was hoping much of that rubbed off on Schoen.
Brandon Beane always struck me as a GM who practices the philosophy "fortune favors the brave". He goes for it. I was hoping much of that rubbed off on Schoen.
But that's false. Because Jones wasn't Schoen's pick, and it was weeks after Schoen's hiring, declining the option was the default decision for any new GM.