I'm glad the Packers aren't on our schedule this year because if Josh Jacobs watched that episode he would be real motivated to run all over us lol. They were killing him.
I'm not so sure. Look at the way Mara talked about Barkley in the episode. I'm confident he was even more vocal about wanting Barkley back in 2022 off a playoff win. That's a tough spot for a first time GM.
I'm pretty confident in assuming Schoen would have preferred to franchise Jones and let Barkley walk after 2022. Thus the "$40M" comments. It's clear he doesn't value RB, why did he value it enough a year before to franchise him then?
I don't think Mara is a huge meddler, but when it comes to marketable stars he definitely lets his opinion known. I'd also guess that Mara made it clear he didn't want Barkley traded at the deadline either.
ITs clear the injury situation last year effected everything they wanted to do and that they were taking the focus off the running back position and moving it back to the D and the passing game.. This is clearly Dans yr to make it or break it with a brand new OL that has an ability to protect for longer than 1 sec.. They have / had a plan and followed it thru hopefully we get better results.. I am a fan of Schoen very smart. MAra clearly waw thinking draft RB if dont sign SQ but he wanted to sign SQ -Joe wanted nothing to do with it. used the money freed up wisely
I'm not so sure. Look at the way Mara talked about Barkley in the episode. I'm confident he was even more vocal about wanting Barkley back in 2022 off a playoff win. That's a tough spot for a first time GM.
I'm pretty confident in assuming Schoen would have preferred to franchise Jones and let Barkley walk after 2022. Thus the "$40M" comments. It's clear he doesn't value RB, why did he value it enough a year before to franchise him then?
I don't think Mara is a huge meddler, but when it comes to marketable stars he definitely lets his opinion known. I'd also guess that Mara made it clear he didn't want Barkley traded at the deadline either.
There was a middle ground between franchise and $40 million though. He could have let him find a deal on the open market and matched or exceeded it and it still probably doesn’t break $30 million. The $40 million is squarely on Joe’s shoulders.
My observation is Schoen is lukewarm on Jones and would upgrade if he got the chance but is fine with him if his ceiling is 2022 Jones until the contract is up.
last night and it now confirms for me just how right my theory was about the 23 offseason is that Mara (and a few others) wanted to desperately keep Barkley and even more so than Jones.
Look at Maras face during the discussion with Schoen over cost of Barkley and how much Mara wanted to keep him. It is clear to me that Schoen and Daboll were willing to pay more (creatively) to keep Jones so the FT could be used on Barkley.
Schoen even said the idea was Jones had a few years to prove himself worth it or we move on (that confirms the out they built into the contract) and the fact that Barkley wasn't the guy Schoen and Daboll wanted to build the entire offense upon.
This idea of what will the offense be without Barkley makes me laugh.. With Barkley it scored the lowest points in a season since 1979.. What are we losing? I know it isn't all on Barkley but this idea that he is so irreplaceable is comical.
It is also very telling that Schoen and Daboll clearly know the Oline and talent outside was not up to snuff..
I like our new DC, he comes in with an idea and a plan for what he wants the defense to be. I think we will see Thibs, Burns, Ojulari and Lawrence a lot on passing downs.
Schoen is passive aggressively calling out the 40 million contract on Mara. That would be career suicide. No owner would want to work with a GM that throws their owner under the bus. There are only 32 of those jobs out there.
Maybe the beat writers start calling McDonnell out as a nepotism hire
If I’m not mistaken there were several meetings with him, Brown, & Schoen & he contributed nothing. And his only comment in the show the aforementioned ‘run identity’ comment.
I was also underwhelmed by Abrams, glad he’s not the GM.
I'm not so sure. Look at the way Mara talked about Barkley in the episode. I'm confident he was even more vocal about wanting Barkley back in 2022 off a playoff win. That's a tough spot for a first time GM.
I'm pretty confident in assuming Schoen would have preferred to franchise Jones and let Barkley walk after 2022. Thus the "$40M" comments. It's clear he doesn't value RB, why did he value it enough a year before to franchise him then?
I don't think Mara is a huge meddler, but when it comes to marketable stars he definitely lets his opinion known. I'd also guess that Mara made it clear he didn't want Barkley traded at the deadline either.
There was a middle ground between franchise and $40 million though. He could have let him find a deal on the open market and matched or exceeded it and it still probably doesn’t break $30 million. The $40 million is squarely on Joe’s shoulders.
My observation is Schoen is lukewarm on Jones and would upgrade if he got the chance but is fine with him if his ceiling is 2022 Jones until the contract is up.
Complete agreement. Schoen let Team Jones dictate negotiations and he should never have said he wanted him back before negotiations began. I hope Schoen has learned from that miscalculation.
Or one of those Modern Marvel shows on The History Channel. We're seeing how the sausage is made, so to speak, and it rarely looks appetizing. I hope that in the end it tastes a lot better than it looks.
RE: Maybe the beat writers start calling McDonnell out as a nepotism hire
If I’m not mistaken there were several meetings with him, Brown, & Schoen & he contributed nothing. And his only comment in the show the aforementioned ‘run identity’ comment.
I was also underwhelmed by Abrams, glad he’s not the GM.
What was a little odd is we know the Giants had rights to edit what was shown - it’s almost as if they insisted on including scenes with Mara (he’s the owner, I get that), McDonnell and Abrams to show they’re actively involved.
But based on what was shown, while it’s Schoen’s front office, part of his job is allowing the Mara loyalists a voice, while at times having to tactfully manage around them
I'm not so sure. Look at the way Mara talked about Barkley in the episode. I'm confident he was even more vocal about wanting Barkley back in 2022 off a playoff win. That's a tough spot for a first time GM.
I'm pretty confident in assuming Schoen would have preferred to franchise Jones and let Barkley walk after 2022. Thus the "$40M" comments. It's clear he doesn't value RB, why did he value it enough a year before to franchise him then?
I don't think Mara is a huge meddler, but when it comes to marketable stars he definitely lets his opinion known. I'd also guess that Mara made it clear he didn't want Barkley traded at the deadline either.
There was a middle ground between franchise and $40 million though. He could have let him find a deal on the open market and matched or exceeded it and it still probably doesn’t break $30 million. The $40 million is squarely on Joe’s shoulders.
My observation is Schoen is lukewarm on Jones and would upgrade if he got the chance but is fine with him if his ceiling is 2022 Jones until the contract is up.
You're correct that Schoen was/is less than hot and bothered about Jones -- but that's not news. The contract structure showed it. And Schoen even verbalized it was always the plan to give DJ two years to prove he's the man for 10 years or pivot.
What's incorrect is middle ground on the contract. The alternative was tagging Jones for $32 million. As I think Eric in Li put it, there is no universe where a guy in line for a tag signs a lesser deal. Especially at QB, where contracts consistently reset upward based on the last deal.
1) fix the OL
2) let your $40 QB sling it
3) if he can't stay healthy or can't perform he's out
Not a huge revelation but good to see it articulated.
I thought the most revealing comment was from Schoen in the meeting with Bowen where he said they needed a #1 WR, a pass rusher, and a cornerback.
Something to keep in mind moving forward. They got two of the three.
Well, they did in the draft at corner, but it's an easy thing to say you need to do, but with Burns and Nabers, they may have hot home runs with those 2 needs.
What's incorrect is middle ground on the contract. The alternative was tagging Jones for $32 million. As I think Eric in Li put it, there is no universe where a guy in line for a tag signs a lesser deal. Especially at QB, where contracts consistently reset upward based on the last deal.
While that may be true, the sample size of QBs to get their 5th year option declined and then sign a long term deal at the tag or higher is basically non existent. Jones wasn’t getting a contract equal to the tag number from anyone else on the open market. The Giants knew they were tagging Barkley, they could have let Jones go out to the open market and find a deal to match or exceed and it wouldn’t have came in higher than $30 million.
RE: RE: So much indecision. Mara reminds me of a boss
that doesn’t want to micromanage, but does anyway. When Schoen told him Daniel makes a lot of money it sounded like that was Mara’s doing also. “Fork in the road” was an apt metaphor.
He's the owner. He writes the checks. The GM is accountable to him. Why shouldnt he have an ear on what is going on with the franchise he owns?
Because all of his knowledge and experience in football is inheriting a football team. He has no background in scouting or coaching and has demonstrated no talent for understanding what he is watching. “Who knew Jerrel Jernigan could play?”
As he explained, he should only be involved in personnel decisions when it comes to the image of the franchise. Seemingly he interprets that as “Keep the guys that are good with the media and the community and try to build a winner around them.”
What's incorrect is middle ground on the contract. The alternative was tagging Jones for $32 million. As I think Eric in Li put it, there is no universe where a guy in line for a tag signs a lesser deal. Especially at QB, where contracts consistently reset upward based on the last deal.
While that may be true, the sample size of QBs to get their 5th year option declined and then sign a long term deal at the tag or higher is basically non existent. Jones wasn’t getting a contract equal to the tag number from anyone else on the open market. The Giants knew they were tagging Barkley, they could have let Jones go out to the open market and find a deal to match or exceed and it wouldn’t have came in higher than $30 million.
It doesn't work that way with your starting QB. You DON'T let them test the market unless you want them gone. That would be NFL GM 101.
The fact is Schoen bought a year option when he declined year 5. NFL cap dynamics drove up the price a bit, as always at QB. Speaking of, this years QB tag price is $38.3MM.
Has no clue how major enterprises are run. There's not an owner in the NFL who wouldn't be making his feelings known at least as much as they showed -- and rightfully so. If an enterprise of similar size and complexity was public, the chief executive (eg Joe Schoen) would be going over every major decision with the board. They'd give their input - and he'd want it. And sometimes that input would be quite forceful. A skill of excellent leaders is managing up.
That is your experience with owners who did not work in the industry in which their business operates? That happens, but it is certainly not common. Even in family run businesses, the children usually grow up working in the business to understand it. What is John Mara’s scouting and coaching background?
JS “Daniel is making a lot of money and we need to figure out if he’s the guy”. How the fuck do you give him that contract if you don’t believe he is the guy?
Really seems like Mara pushed the jones contract after rewatching this
My impression was this is definitely the Schoen and Daboll show
Mara expressed his opinion which sounded more like "how do I keep butts in seats" then "keep Saquon". And Saquon is gone.
I really like the banter so far between Joe and his staff. Seems very open, even though we are only seeing 1 minute of what are probably hour long conversations.
was always going to be the starter. If they traded up for Maye, he would have sat the majority of the year behind Jones. The footage from the first episode leads me to believe that.
Agreed. I'll be interested to see if we get to know how serious the Giants were about Maye. This first episode makes me believe that Sy was correct in that we weren't going all out for a QB unless he was there at six making JJ the only realistic option if the evals gave him a first round grade.
The Hard Knocks preview for the next episode did show J.J. McCarthy, so maybe we get to learn more about the amount of time spent with him and hopefully a glimpse into the evaluation process.
What's incorrect is middle ground on the contract. The alternative was tagging Jones for $32 million. As I think Eric in Li put it, there is no universe where a guy in line for a tag signs a lesser deal. Especially at QB, where contracts consistently reset upward based on the last deal.
While that may be true, the sample size of QBs to get their 5th year option declined and then sign a long term deal at the tag or higher is basically non existent. Jones wasn’t getting a contract equal to the tag number from anyone else on the open market. The Giants knew they were tagging Barkley, they could have let Jones go out to the open market and find a deal to match or exceed and it wouldn’t have came in higher than $30 million.
It doesn't work that way with your starting QB. You DON'T let them test the market unless you want them gone. That would be NFL GM 101.
The fact is Schoen bought a year option when he declined year 5. NFL cap dynamics drove up the price a bit, as always at QB. Speaking of, this years QB tag price is $38.3MM.
Do you believe Jones would have gotten that amount of money (or more) from another NFL team?
JS “Daniel is making a lot of money and we need to figure out if he’s the guy”. How the fuck do you give him that contract if you don’t believe he is the guy?
Really seems like Mara pushed the jones contract after rewatching this
To me this speaks to the organization’s view of the position - you select a QB and he is your franchise guy until he clearly demonstrates he can’t be. Jones has never had to prove he is a franchise QB. He has had to avoid showing he isn’t a franchise QB. 2022 reset the discussion for the Giants so now we have to have that discussion again in 2024.
To me, the question is this - what can Jones do in 2024 that makes you think that is the QB you will see consistently going forward and the first 5 years were the mis-reading? Even if Jones plays really well in 2024, why would you trust him to do it again in 2025 and 2026?
The Giants have a confirmation bias with Daniel Jones and giving him opportunity after opportunity where negative outcomes say nothing about him and positive outcomes are because of him is a very dangerous way to stay in this QB hell of their own design.
The Giants should be asking themselves what Jones has done to secure another year rather than around how many years they “give” him.
I think fans forget John Mara owns less than 5% of the team personally, and that he is in every way the president and CEO of an organization.
His first priority is to create value for his siblings and the Tisches. Winning contributes to that, but that's a minor factor in generating revenue.
Amplifying the game and its stars is more important. That is how the NFL ensures they continue to enjoy massive television and media deals. And that's the biggest revenue stream.
Mara doesn't operate like an activist BOD member. He's the CEO, and Schoen is more like the executive in charge of a major, but not the most important function of the company.
In the discussion around Barkley and McDonnell’s comments around losing their offensive identity. The question in his mind was clearly around replacing a really good player that they could market as opposed to how do we make a terrible offense better.
Some in the front office seem more focused on the individual players than on the overall success/failure of the team.
I think fans forget John Mara owns less than 5% of the team personally, and that he is in every way the president and CEO of an organization.
His first priority is to create value for his siblings and the Tisches. Winning contributes to that, but that's a minor factor in generating revenue.
Amplifying the game and its stars is more important. That is how the NFL ensures they continue to enjoy massive television and media deals. And that's the biggest revenue stream.
Mara doesn't operate like an activist BOD member. He's the CEO, and Schoen is more like the executive in charge of a major, but not the most important function of the company.
If that were the case, why wouldn’t Mara want Barkely playing in Philadelphia behind a better Oline with a chance to shine brighter than he ever did in NY?
Mara clearly wants Barkely to be a star for the Giants, not the NFL.
‘The Nephew’ pieces scared the hell out of me. If he’s the future, Good Lord…
Yep. Comes across as a clueless spoiled brat. Mara also doesn’t come across well either. His affinity for jones and at the time Barkley pretty much affirms what many here suspected.
It was clear that Mara (and McDonnell) were uncomfortable about moving on from Barkley. And it was also clear who's running the team and making the decisions. The owner opined. The GM call the shot. I hope this will put to rest, or at least, dampen the talk about Mara's meddling.
I propose all Hard Knocks threads moving forward include the following disclaimer:
"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."
Months of work and hours of conversation boiled down to a few clips simply cannot yield certainty in any one area, so take the edits with a grain of salt. There's good info there, but I don't think anything can be viewed with end-all certainty.
What's incorrect is middle ground on the contract. The alternative was tagging Jones for $32 million. As I think Eric in Li put it, there is no universe where a guy in line for a tag signs a lesser deal. Especially at QB, where contracts consistently reset upward based on the last deal.
While that may be true, the sample size of QBs to get their 5th year option declined and then sign a long term deal at the tag or higher is basically non existent. Jones wasn’t getting a contract equal to the tag number from anyone else on the open market. The Giants knew they were tagging Barkley, they could have let Jones go out to the open market and find a deal to match or exceed and it wouldn’t have came in higher than $30 million.
It doesn't work that way with your starting QB. You DON'T let them test the market unless you want them gone. That would be NFL GM 101.
The fact is Schoen bought a year option when he declined year 5. NFL cap dynamics drove up the price a bit, as always at QB. Speaking of, this years QB tag price is $38.3MM.
Do you believe Jones would have gotten that amount of money (or more) from another NFL team?
I'd have to do the same exercise as Schoen did for SB in the show about what teams might value him higher; I don't have that in me. No point anyway.
That said, I doubt it. Jones value to the Giants at that point, in that situation, was probably higher than other teams. And probably by a lot - just as SB's value to the Eagles was nearly twice Schoen's.
I propose all Hard Knocks threads moving forward include the following disclaimer:
"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."
Months of work and hours of conversation boiled down to a few clips simply cannot yield certainty in any one area, so take the edits with a grain of salt. There's good info there, but I don't think anything can be viewed with end-all certainty.
I think fans forget John Mara owns less than 5% of the team personally, and that he is in every way the president and CEO of an organization.
His first priority is to create value for his siblings and the Tisches. Winning contributes to that, but that's a minor factor in generating revenue.
Amplifying the game and its stars is more important. That is how the NFL ensures they continue to enjoy massive television and media deals. And that's the biggest revenue stream.
Mara doesn't operate like an activist BOD member. He's the CEO, and Schoen is more like the executive in charge of a major, but not the most important function of the company.
John Mara doesn't strike me as an owner who doesn't care about winning as long as the team is profitable. For all the shit Mara gets, I don't see how anyone could think he doesn't badly want to win. I just don't think he knows how. He's incredibly invested in how the football team performs.
I think fans forget John Mara owns less than 5% of the team personally, and that he is in every way the president and CEO of an organization.
His first priority is to create value for his siblings and the Tisches. Winning contributes to that, but that's a minor factor in generating revenue.
Amplifying the game and its stars is more important. That is how the NFL ensures they continue to enjoy massive television and media deals. And that's the biggest revenue stream.
Mara doesn't operate like an activist BOD member. He's the CEO, and Schoen is more like the executive in charge of a major, but not the most important function of the company.
If that were the case, why wouldn’t Mara want Barkely playing in Philadelphia behind a better Oline with a chance to shine brighter than he ever did in NY?
Mara clearly wants Barkely to be a star for the Giants, not the NFL.
A Giants team packed with star power is good for both the NFL and the Giants. The Giants, even as a losing franchise, have a higher profile and generate more value than a winning a Eagles team.
I'm not saying Mara operates solely on behalf of the NFL. He creates value for his family and the Tisches through direct team channels as well.
My point is Schoen is in charge of football operations, and Mara is in charge of overall revenue operations. Schoen is not playing the part of a defacto CEO. He's just a piece of the puzzle.
Says that the Giants are purposely manipulating this a lot and went into this begrudgingly with the idea to let out as little insight as possible.
I say this because
a) We have Daboll specifically saying at the Legends event that he was doing all he could to avoid the release of important conversations.
b) It's clear that HBO wired two or three rooms with the cameras to get the bulk of their information, which are that large meeting room where Bowen was presenting and Schoen's office. I think in a large facility it would be easy to "go through the motions" in those areas and save the important convos for other areas. An example of this is how Schoen's 150 sq foot office had about 10 guys in it at one point crammed in to discuss Barkley. I think it's intentional.
Maybe I'm off but the whole thing seems forced and a little staged to me.
Sean -- I'm not saying Mara doesn't care about winning. I think it's obvious he does.
My point is that in reality he personally holds a very small ownership stake in the company, and holds the job as the highest corporate officer. He runs the show on behalf of his family and the Tisches family.
And he has other responsibilities outside of the football operations. He'd be a fool to not consider the revenue implications of losing a star player.
I propose all Hard Knocks threads moving forward include the following disclaimer:
"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."
Months of work and hours of conversation boiled down to a few clips simply cannot yield certainty in any one area, so take the edits with a grain of salt. There's good info there, but I don't think anything can be viewed with end-all certainty.
some stuff can be clear, if in conjunction to things that happened in real world - i.e. hard knocks aside schoen had a clear unwillingness to change his offers to barkley from one year to the next even as the cap increased more than expected.
various members of his staff articulated alternative viewpoints, which is their job, some which proved correct like rossetti, but in the end schoen stuck with his belief in positional value and made a decision with clear conviction. out of everything we saw in episode 1 that to me is a clear and inarguable takeaway. how it works out is entirely unknown for all involved but we saw exactly how the decision unfolded, and it explains the strained relationship the past 16 months.
Some in the front office seem more focused on the individual players than on the overall success/failure of the team.
isn't one kind of related to the other? the literal job descriptions of most everyone in any FO below GM is focusing on individual players.
I am talking about what Mara, Schoen and McDonnell are focused on. Are you suggesting they should be more focused on individual player success than team success?
Sure, a RB coach should be concerned about the success of the RBs. Clearly that is not what my post was about. I think you know that.
Sean -- I'm not saying Mara doesn't care about winning. I think it's obvious he does.
My point is that in reality he personally holds a very small ownership stake in the company, and holds the job as the highest corporate officer. He runs the show on behalf of his family and the Tisches family.
And he has other responsibilities outside of the football operations. He'd be a fool to not consider the revenue implications of losing a star player.
any owner or ceo would also be a fool if they didnt at least have some working knowledge of how to quantify one of their most productive employees in their primary business. barkley was the giants 4th all time rushing leader, less than 100 yards from 3rd (joe morris), and has the highest career ypg in franchise history.
it is not abnormal for any owner to be less informed than the subject matter expert they employ specifically for particularly difficult decisions like that one. im sure steve cohen or hal steinbrenner prefer to extend pete alonso and juan soto but similarly david stearns and cashman will ultimately need to be the ones to decide where the line is or isnt where the cost is too prohibitive for the team.
Schoen all but said "why am I fucking stressing out over a running back?"
I keep going back to why was he franchised after 2022? It's seems clear to me that if it were up to Schoen, the no brainer would have been to franchise Jones and let Barkley test the market. This is where I think Mara did come into play after the success of 2022 including the playoff win.
I don't disagree. My point, further up in the chain, is that John Mara truly only has a small personal minority stake in the team.
He has a job to do, which is generate value for the other owners. And that is as CEO and President of the company. Schoen isn't a CEO figure.
The Giants are the second most valuable franchise in the league, and have won the third fewest games in league over the last 10 years. Clearly winning isn't the lynchpin in creating value.
The Giants aren't John Mara's pet project. It's a job. And yes winning is an important outcome, but creating value for the dozen plus other owners who have entrusted him with authority is also important to him.
“What will our identity be if we lose Barkley”. JFC
Stuck in the 90s. Omg.
People seem very confused about this exchange. Unless you want sycophants nodding along with every one of Schoen's utterances, you need someone in the room willing to stand up and present the opposing argument.
Whether or not the fans find his point compelling couldn't be less relevant.
That assumes all arguments are valid and of equal value.
In comment 16547764 BJacobs The Tiptoe Bandit said:
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Says that the Giants are purposely manipulating this a lot and went into this begrudgingly with the idea to let out as little insight as possible.
I say this because
a) We have Daboll specifically saying at the Legends event that he was doing all he could to avoid the release of important conversations.
b) It's clear that HBO wired two or three rooms with the cameras to get the bulk of their information, which are that large meeting room where Bowen was presenting and Schoen's office. I think in a large facility it would be easy to "go through the motions" in those areas and save the important convos for other areas. An example of this is how Schoen's 150 sq foot office had about 10 guys in it at one point crammed in to discuss Barkley. I think it's intentional.
Maybe I'm off but the whole thing seems forced and a little staged to me.
It's not conspiracy theory. Organizations such as the Giants will narrative-engineer. Not only for public consumption (think propaganda) but also to prevent internal problems (think about Jones' ego).
If I’m not mistaken there were several meetings with him, Brown, & Schoen & he contributed nothing. And his only comment in the show the aforementioned ‘run identity’ comment.
Of course he’s a nepotism hire he’s being groomed to be the next team President.
I don't disagree. My point, further up in the chain, is that John Mara truly only has a small personal minority stake in the team.
He has a job to do, which is generate value for the other owners. And that is as CEO and President of the company. Schoen isn't a CEO figure.
The Giants are the second most valuable franchise in the league, and have won the third fewest games in league over the last 10 years. Clearly winning isn't the lynchpin in creating value.
The Giants aren't John Mara's pet project. It's a job. And yes winning is an important outcome, but creating value for the dozen plus other owners who have entrusted him with authority is also important to him.
I think this might be true of some NFL owners, but not John Mara. Despite my criticisms of him as an owner, the Giants are his family and he is passionate about the success of this team like any rabid fan would be. If you asked Mara behind closed doors if he would accept a 10% decrease in NFL revenue in exchange for a Giants SB win, he would take it in a heartbeat.
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My favorite moment was Daboll's comment about getting a DC who can figure out run defense.
That stood out to me too. Pretty clear which part of Wink's scheme Daboll was unimpressed with.
Me too. And those clips of Pollard gashing the Giants D was a painful reminder.
I'm pretty confident in assuming Schoen would have preferred to franchise Jones and let Barkley walk after 2022. Thus the "$40M" comments. It's clear he doesn't value RB, why did he value it enough a year before to franchise him then?
I don't think Mara is a huge meddler, but when it comes to marketable stars he definitely lets his opinion known. I'd also guess that Mara made it clear he didn't want Barkley traded at the deadline either.
ITs clear the injury situation last year effected everything they wanted to do and that they were taking the focus off the running back position and moving it back to the D and the passing game.. This is clearly Dans yr to make it or break it with a brand new OL that has an ability to protect for longer than 1 sec.. They have / had a plan and followed it thru hopefully we get better results.. I am a fan of Schoen very smart. MAra clearly waw thinking draft RB if dont sign SQ but he wanted to sign SQ -Joe wanted nothing to do with it. used the money freed up wisely
I'm pretty confident in assuming Schoen would have preferred to franchise Jones and let Barkley walk after 2022. Thus the "$40M" comments. It's clear he doesn't value RB, why did he value it enough a year before to franchise him then?
I don't think Mara is a huge meddler, but when it comes to marketable stars he definitely lets his opinion known. I'd also guess that Mara made it clear he didn't want Barkley traded at the deadline either.
There was a middle ground between franchise and $40 million though. He could have let him find a deal on the open market and matched or exceeded it and it still probably doesn’t break $30 million. The $40 million is squarely on Joe’s shoulders.
My observation is Schoen is lukewarm on Jones and would upgrade if he got the chance but is fine with him if his ceiling is 2022 Jones until the contract is up.
Look at Maras face during the discussion with Schoen over cost of Barkley and how much Mara wanted to keep him. It is clear to me that Schoen and Daboll were willing to pay more (creatively) to keep Jones so the FT could be used on Barkley.
Schoen even said the idea was Jones had a few years to prove himself worth it or we move on (that confirms the out they built into the contract) and the fact that Barkley wasn't the guy Schoen and Daboll wanted to build the entire offense upon.
This idea of what will the offense be without Barkley makes me laugh.. With Barkley it scored the lowest points in a season since 1979.. What are we losing? I know it isn't all on Barkley but this idea that he is so irreplaceable is comical.
It is also very telling that Schoen and Daboll clearly know the Oline and talent outside was not up to snuff..
I like our new DC, he comes in with an idea and a plan for what he wants the defense to be. I think we will see Thibs, Burns, Ojulari and Lawrence a lot on passing downs.
I was also underwhelmed by Abrams, glad he’s not the GM.
Was it an attempted coup on his part?
What is abundantly clear is Daboll was fed up w the D not being able to stop the run
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I'm not so sure. Look at the way Mara talked about Barkley in the episode. I'm confident he was even more vocal about wanting Barkley back in 2022 off a playoff win. That's a tough spot for a first time GM.
I'm pretty confident in assuming Schoen would have preferred to franchise Jones and let Barkley walk after 2022. Thus the "$40M" comments. It's clear he doesn't value RB, why did he value it enough a year before to franchise him then?
I don't think Mara is a huge meddler, but when it comes to marketable stars he definitely lets his opinion known. I'd also guess that Mara made it clear he didn't want Barkley traded at the deadline either.
There was a middle ground between franchise and $40 million though. He could have let him find a deal on the open market and matched or exceeded it and it still probably doesn’t break $30 million. The $40 million is squarely on Joe’s shoulders.
My observation is Schoen is lukewarm on Jones and would upgrade if he got the chance but is fine with him if his ceiling is 2022 Jones until the contract is up.
Complete agreement. Schoen let Team Jones dictate negotiations and he should never have said he wanted him back before negotiations began. I hope Schoen has learned from that miscalculation.
I was also underwhelmed by Abrams, glad he’s not the GM.
What was a little odd is we know the Giants had rights to edit what was shown - it’s almost as if they insisted on including scenes with Mara (he’s the owner, I get that), McDonnell and Abrams to show they’re actively involved.
But based on what was shown, while it’s Schoen’s front office, part of his job is allowing the Mara loyalists a voice, while at times having to tactfully manage around them
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I'm not so sure. Look at the way Mara talked about Barkley in the episode. I'm confident he was even more vocal about wanting Barkley back in 2022 off a playoff win. That's a tough spot for a first time GM.
I'm pretty confident in assuming Schoen would have preferred to franchise Jones and let Barkley walk after 2022. Thus the "$40M" comments. It's clear he doesn't value RB, why did he value it enough a year before to franchise him then?
I don't think Mara is a huge meddler, but when it comes to marketable stars he definitely lets his opinion known. I'd also guess that Mara made it clear he didn't want Barkley traded at the deadline either.
There was a middle ground between franchise and $40 million though. He could have let him find a deal on the open market and matched or exceeded it and it still probably doesn’t break $30 million. The $40 million is squarely on Joe’s shoulders.
My observation is Schoen is lukewarm on Jones and would upgrade if he got the chance but is fine with him if his ceiling is 2022 Jones until the contract is up.
You're correct that Schoen was/is less than hot and bothered about Jones -- but that's not news. The contract structure showed it. And Schoen even verbalized it was always the plan to give DJ two years to prove he's the man for 10 years or pivot.
What's incorrect is middle ground on the contract. The alternative was tagging Jones for $32 million. As I think Eric in Li put it, there is no universe where a guy in line for a tag signs a lesser deal. Especially at QB, where contracts consistently reset upward based on the last deal.
What's interesting is McConnell didn't strike me as someone who had much belief in Jones. Asking what the identity of the offense without Barkley is.
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1) fix the OL
2) let your $40 QB sling it
3) if he can't stay healthy or can't perform he's out
Not a huge revelation but good to see it articulated.
I thought the most revealing comment was from Schoen in the meeting with Bowen where he said they needed a #1 WR, a pass rusher, and a cornerback.
Something to keep in mind moving forward. They got two of the three.
Well, they did in the draft at corner, but it's an easy thing to say you need to do, but with Burns and Nabers, they may have hot home runs with those 2 needs.
What's incorrect is middle ground on the contract. The alternative was tagging Jones for $32 million. As I think Eric in Li put it, there is no universe where a guy in line for a tag signs a lesser deal. Especially at QB, where contracts consistently reset upward based on the last deal.
While that may be true, the sample size of QBs to get their 5th year option declined and then sign a long term deal at the tag or higher is basically non existent. Jones wasn’t getting a contract equal to the tag number from anyone else on the open market. The Giants knew they were tagging Barkley, they could have let Jones go out to the open market and find a deal to match or exceed and it wouldn’t have came in higher than $30 million.
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that doesn’t want to micromanage, but does anyway. When Schoen told him Daniel makes a lot of money it sounded like that was Mara’s doing also. “Fork in the road” was an apt metaphor.
He's the owner. He writes the checks. The GM is accountable to him. Why shouldnt he have an ear on what is going on with the franchise he owns?
Because all of his knowledge and experience in football is inheriting a football team. He has no background in scouting or coaching and has demonstrated no talent for understanding what he is watching. “Who knew Jerrel Jernigan could play?”
As he explained, he should only be involved in personnel decisions when it comes to the image of the franchise. Seemingly he interprets that as “Keep the guys that are good with the media and the community and try to build a winner around them.”
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What's incorrect is middle ground on the contract. The alternative was tagging Jones for $32 million. As I think Eric in Li put it, there is no universe where a guy in line for a tag signs a lesser deal. Especially at QB, where contracts consistently reset upward based on the last deal.
While that may be true, the sample size of QBs to get their 5th year option declined and then sign a long term deal at the tag or higher is basically non existent. Jones wasn’t getting a contract equal to the tag number from anyone else on the open market. The Giants knew they were tagging Barkley, they could have let Jones go out to the open market and find a deal to match or exceed and it wouldn’t have came in higher than $30 million.
It doesn't work that way with your starting QB. You DON'T let them test the market unless you want them gone. That would be NFL GM 101.
The fact is Schoen bought a year option when he declined year 5. NFL cap dynamics drove up the price a bit, as always at QB. Speaking of, this years QB tag price is $38.3MM.
That is your experience with owners who did not work in the industry in which their business operates? That happens, but it is certainly not common. Even in family run businesses, the children usually grow up working in the business to understand it. What is John Mara’s scouting and coaching background?
Really seems like Mara pushed the jones contract after rewatching this
I really like the banter so far between Joe and his staff. Seems very open, even though we are only seeing 1 minute of what are probably hour long conversations.
Agreed. I'll be interested to see if we get to know how serious the Giants were about Maye. This first episode makes me believe that Sy was correct in that we weren't going all out for a QB unless he was there at six making JJ the only realistic option if the evals gave him a first round grade.
The Hard Knocks preview for the next episode did show J.J. McCarthy, so maybe we get to learn more about the amount of time spent with him and hopefully a glimpse into the evaluation process.
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In comment 16547697 HBart said:
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What's incorrect is middle ground on the contract. The alternative was tagging Jones for $32 million. As I think Eric in Li put it, there is no universe where a guy in line for a tag signs a lesser deal. Especially at QB, where contracts consistently reset upward based on the last deal.
While that may be true, the sample size of QBs to get their 5th year option declined and then sign a long term deal at the tag or higher is basically non existent. Jones wasn’t getting a contract equal to the tag number from anyone else on the open market. The Giants knew they were tagging Barkley, they could have let Jones go out to the open market and find a deal to match or exceed and it wouldn’t have came in higher than $30 million.
It doesn't work that way with your starting QB. You DON'T let them test the market unless you want them gone. That would be NFL GM 101.
The fact is Schoen bought a year option when he declined year 5. NFL cap dynamics drove up the price a bit, as always at QB. Speaking of, this years QB tag price is $38.3MM.
Do you believe Jones would have gotten that amount of money (or more) from another NFL team?
Really seems like Mara pushed the jones contract after rewatching this
To me this speaks to the organization’s view of the position - you select a QB and he is your franchise guy until he clearly demonstrates he can’t be. Jones has never had to prove he is a franchise QB. He has had to avoid showing he isn’t a franchise QB. 2022 reset the discussion for the Giants so now we have to have that discussion again in 2024.
To me, the question is this - what can Jones do in 2024 that makes you think that is the QB you will see consistently going forward and the first 5 years were the mis-reading? Even if Jones plays really well in 2024, why would you trust him to do it again in 2025 and 2026?
The Giants have a confirmation bias with Daniel Jones and giving him opportunity after opportunity where negative outcomes say nothing about him and positive outcomes are because of him is a very dangerous way to stay in this QB hell of their own design.
The Giants should be asking themselves what Jones has done to secure another year rather than around how many years they “give” him.
His first priority is to create value for his siblings and the Tisches. Winning contributes to that, but that's a minor factor in generating revenue.
Amplifying the game and its stars is more important. That is how the NFL ensures they continue to enjoy massive television and media deals. And that's the biggest revenue stream.
Mara doesn't operate like an activist BOD member. He's the CEO, and Schoen is more like the executive in charge of a major, but not the most important function of the company.
Some in the front office seem more focused on the individual players than on the overall success/failure of the team.
His first priority is to create value for his siblings and the Tisches. Winning contributes to that, but that's a minor factor in generating revenue.
Amplifying the game and its stars is more important. That is how the NFL ensures they continue to enjoy massive television and media deals. And that's the biggest revenue stream.
Mara doesn't operate like an activist BOD member. He's the CEO, and Schoen is more like the executive in charge of a major, but not the most important function of the company.
If that were the case, why wouldn’t Mara want Barkely playing in Philadelphia behind a better Oline with a chance to shine brighter than he ever did in NY?
Mara clearly wants Barkely to be a star for the Giants, not the NFL.
Yep. Comes across as a clueless spoiled brat. Mara also doesn’t come across well either. His affinity for jones and at the time Barkley pretty much affirms what many here suspected.
Some in the front office seem more focused on the individual players than on the overall success/failure of the team.
isn't one kind of related to the other? the literal job descriptions of most everyone in any FO below GM is focusing on individual players.
"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."
Months of work and hours of conversation boiled down to a few clips simply cannot yield certainty in any one area, so take the edits with a grain of salt. There's good info there, but I don't think anything can be viewed with end-all certainty.
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In comment 16547704 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 16547697 HBart said:
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What's incorrect is middle ground on the contract. The alternative was tagging Jones for $32 million. As I think Eric in Li put it, there is no universe where a guy in line for a tag signs a lesser deal. Especially at QB, where contracts consistently reset upward based on the last deal.
While that may be true, the sample size of QBs to get their 5th year option declined and then sign a long term deal at the tag or higher is basically non existent. Jones wasn’t getting a contract equal to the tag number from anyone else on the open market. The Giants knew they were tagging Barkley, they could have let Jones go out to the open market and find a deal to match or exceed and it wouldn’t have came in higher than $30 million.
It doesn't work that way with your starting QB. You DON'T let them test the market unless you want them gone. That would be NFL GM 101.
The fact is Schoen bought a year option when he declined year 5. NFL cap dynamics drove up the price a bit, as always at QB. Speaking of, this years QB tag price is $38.3MM.
Do you believe Jones would have gotten that amount of money (or more) from another NFL team?
I'd have to do the same exercise as Schoen did for SB in the show about what teams might value him higher; I don't have that in me. No point anyway.
That said, I doubt it. Jones value to the Giants at that point, in that situation, was probably higher than other teams. And probably by a lot - just as SB's value to the Eagles was nearly twice Schoen's.
"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."
Months of work and hours of conversation boiled down to a few clips simply cannot yield certainty in any one area, so take the edits with a grain of salt. There's good info there, but I don't think anything can be viewed with end-all certainty.
Excellent post!
His first priority is to create value for his siblings and the Tisches. Winning contributes to that, but that's a minor factor in generating revenue.
Amplifying the game and its stars is more important. That is how the NFL ensures they continue to enjoy massive television and media deals. And that's the biggest revenue stream.
Mara doesn't operate like an activist BOD member. He's the CEO, and Schoen is more like the executive in charge of a major, but not the most important function of the company.
John Mara doesn't strike me as an owner who doesn't care about winning as long as the team is profitable. For all the shit Mara gets, I don't see how anyone could think he doesn't badly want to win. I just don't think he knows how. He's incredibly invested in how the football team performs.
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I think fans forget John Mara owns less than 5% of the team personally, and that he is in every way the president and CEO of an organization.
His first priority is to create value for his siblings and the Tisches. Winning contributes to that, but that's a minor factor in generating revenue.
Amplifying the game and its stars is more important. That is how the NFL ensures they continue to enjoy massive television and media deals. And that's the biggest revenue stream.
Mara doesn't operate like an activist BOD member. He's the CEO, and Schoen is more like the executive in charge of a major, but not the most important function of the company.
If that were the case, why wouldn’t Mara want Barkely playing in Philadelphia behind a better Oline with a chance to shine brighter than he ever did in NY?
Mara clearly wants Barkely to be a star for the Giants, not the NFL.
A Giants team packed with star power is good for both the NFL and the Giants. The Giants, even as a losing franchise, have a higher profile and generate more value than a winning a Eagles team.
I'm not saying Mara operates solely on behalf of the NFL. He creates value for his family and the Tisches through direct team channels as well.
My point is Schoen is in charge of football operations, and Mara is in charge of overall revenue operations. Schoen is not playing the part of a defacto CEO. He's just a piece of the puzzle.
I say this because
a) We have Daboll specifically saying at the Legends event that he was doing all he could to avoid the release of important conversations.
b) It's clear that HBO wired two or three rooms with the cameras to get the bulk of their information, which are that large meeting room where Bowen was presenting and Schoen's office. I think in a large facility it would be easy to "go through the motions" in those areas and save the important convos for other areas. An example of this is how Schoen's 150 sq foot office had about 10 guys in it at one point crammed in to discuss Barkley. I think it's intentional.
Maybe I'm off but the whole thing seems forced and a little staged to me.
My point is that in reality he personally holds a very small ownership stake in the company, and holds the job as the highest corporate officer. He runs the show on behalf of his family and the Tisches family.
And he has other responsibilities outside of the football operations. He'd be a fool to not consider the revenue implications of losing a star player.
"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."
Months of work and hours of conversation boiled down to a few clips simply cannot yield certainty in any one area, so take the edits with a grain of salt. There's good info there, but I don't think anything can be viewed with end-all certainty.
some stuff can be clear, if in conjunction to things that happened in real world - i.e. hard knocks aside schoen had a clear unwillingness to change his offers to barkley from one year to the next even as the cap increased more than expected.
various members of his staff articulated alternative viewpoints, which is their job, some which proved correct like rossetti, but in the end schoen stuck with his belief in positional value and made a decision with clear conviction. out of everything we saw in episode 1 that to me is a clear and inarguable takeaway. how it works out is entirely unknown for all involved but we saw exactly how the decision unfolded, and it explains the strained relationship the past 16 months.
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Some in the front office seem more focused on the individual players than on the overall success/failure of the team.
isn't one kind of related to the other? the literal job descriptions of most everyone in any FO below GM is focusing on individual players.
I am talking about what Mara, Schoen and McDonnell are focused on. Are you suggesting they should be more focused on individual player success than team success?
Sure, a RB coach should be concerned about the success of the RBs. Clearly that is not what my post was about. I think you know that.
My point is that in reality he personally holds a very small ownership stake in the company, and holds the job as the highest corporate officer. He runs the show on behalf of his family and the Tisches family.
And he has other responsibilities outside of the football operations. He'd be a fool to not consider the revenue implications of losing a star player.
any owner or ceo would also be a fool if they didnt at least have some working knowledge of how to quantify one of their most productive employees in their primary business. barkley was the giants 4th all time rushing leader, less than 100 yards from 3rd (joe morris), and has the highest career ypg in franchise history.
it is not abnormal for any owner to be less informed than the subject matter expert they employ specifically for particularly difficult decisions like that one. im sure steve cohen or hal steinbrenner prefer to extend pete alonso and juan soto but similarly david stearns and cashman will ultimately need to be the ones to decide where the line is or isnt where the cost is too prohibitive for the team.
I keep going back to why was he franchised after 2022? It's seems clear to me that if it were up to Schoen, the no brainer would have been to franchise Jones and let Barkley test the market. This is where I think Mara did come into play after the success of 2022 including the playoff win.
He has a job to do, which is generate value for the other owners. And that is as CEO and President of the company. Schoen isn't a CEO figure.
The Giants are the second most valuable franchise in the league, and have won the third fewest games in league over the last 10 years. Clearly winning isn't the lynchpin in creating value.
The Giants aren't John Mara's pet project. It's a job. And yes winning is an important outcome, but creating value for the dozen plus other owners who have entrusted him with authority is also important to him.
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In comment 16547579 GiantsFan84 said:
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“What will our identity be if we lose Barkley”. JFC
Stuck in the 90s. Omg.
People seem very confused about this exchange. Unless you want sycophants nodding along with every one of Schoen's utterances, you need someone in the room willing to stand up and present the opposing argument.
Whether or not the fans find his point compelling couldn't be less relevant.
That assumes all arguments are valid and of equal value.
I say this because
a) We have Daboll specifically saying at the Legends event that he was doing all he could to avoid the release of important conversations.
b) It's clear that HBO wired two or three rooms with the cameras to get the bulk of their information, which are that large meeting room where Bowen was presenting and Schoen's office. I think in a large facility it would be easy to "go through the motions" in those areas and save the important convos for other areas. An example of this is how Schoen's 150 sq foot office had about 10 guys in it at one point crammed in to discuss Barkley. I think it's intentional.
Maybe I'm off but the whole thing seems forced and a little staged to me.
It's not conspiracy theory. Organizations such as the Giants will narrative-engineer. Not only for public consumption (think propaganda) but also to prevent internal problems (think about Jones' ego).
Of course he’s a nepotism hire he’s being groomed to be the next team President.
He has a job to do, which is generate value for the other owners. And that is as CEO and President of the company. Schoen isn't a CEO figure.
The Giants are the second most valuable franchise in the league, and have won the third fewest games in league over the last 10 years. Clearly winning isn't the lynchpin in creating value.
The Giants aren't John Mara's pet project. It's a job. And yes winning is an important outcome, but creating value for the dozen plus other owners who have entrusted him with authority is also important to him.
I think this might be true of some NFL owners, but not John Mara. Despite my criticisms of him as an owner, the Giants are his family and he is passionate about the success of this team like any rabid fan would be. If you asked Mara behind closed doors if he would accept a 10% decrease in NFL revenue in exchange for a Giants SB win, he would take it in a heartbeat.