Really cool episode and think Looking forward to episode 2. Nabers' response to not being involved early sure was interesting - would like to see the rest of that clip!
You don't test out whether a guy can sling it AFTER you make him the highest paid player in Giants history and one of the highest in the NFL. Mara deserves his share of the blame for drafting DJ, but I am thoroughly convinced now that the entire DJ and Saquon 2023 contract fiascoes rest squarely on Schoen. And from what I could glean from that first episode I would actually now be surprised if the Giants did in fact make a serious effort in trying to move up to draft Drake Maye.
And can someone please notify the Giants brass that the word "TRAIL", which is the acronym above the team's training facility, has precisely the wrong meaning for a team with championship aspirations. A better word would its antithesis, "LEAD".
Mike I agree. 82M isn't a test drive. At the risk of opening this can for the millionth time, guys like Smith and Mayfield are test drives. They got 27M and 40M respectively.
He bought Jones. He had a chance for a graceful and/or accelerated exit this year and he passed.
He's now on record among the recent principals who have advocated for getting more weapons and better pass protection.
Lol at fears of Mara micro-managing anything but a cup of prune juice
Mike I agree. 82M isn't a test drive. At the risk of opening this can for the millionth time, guys like Smith and Mayfield are test drives. They got 27M and 40M respectively.
He bought Jones. He had a chance for a graceful and/or accelerated exit this year and he passed.
He's now on record among the recent principals who have advocated for getting more weapons and better pass protection.
I think you're right. 3/$112.5M are the terms we should focus on. I'd say there is a good chance QB is drafted next April, but Jones is the placeholder for another year.
Joe Schoen "history is the best way to predict the future"
Don't tell me Mara didn't play a big role in resigning Jones. As I've said in multiple threads, there is no way that after reviewing the first 4 years of Jones' career, Schoen and Daboll decided that "he's our guy".
or the reality that most good rbs are high (day 2) picks. the guy they signed to replace him had been a day 2 pick.
as hopeful as we want to be re tyrone tracy the odds say most day 3 picks end up like eric gray and arent ready to contribute in year 1 if ever. before barkley there was a decade of proof in the form of paul perkins, wayne gallman, andre brown, andre williams, michael cox, darel scott, that finding ahmad bradshaw's isnt so simple.
I somewhat agree. I have no problem going RB in the second at any time.
But also bad scouting and bad OL was a significant part of that era of bad RB picks. Some of those guys had NFL ability and were thrown into bad situations.
Mike I agree. 82M isn't a test drive. At the risk of opening this can for the millionth time, guys like Smith and Mayfield are test drives. They got 27M and 40M respectively.
He bought Jones. He had a chance for a graceful and/or accelerated exit this year and he passed.
He's now on record among the recent principals who have advocated for getting more weapons and better pass protection.
I think you're right. 3/$112.5M are the terms we should focus on. I'd say there is a good chance QB is drafted next April, but Jones is the placeholder for another year.
The way he said so matter of factly "we need to find out if he's our guy for the next ten years" speaks to me that he *wasnt* convinced and he sees that contract as not a firm commitment.
You don't test out whether a guy can sling it AFTER you make him the highest paid player in Giants history and one of the highest in the NFL. Mara deserves his share of the blame for drafting DJ, but I am thoroughly convinced now that the entire DJ and Saquon 2023 contract fiascoes rest squarely on Schoen. And from what I could glean from that first episode I would actually now be surprised if the Giants did in fact make a serious effort in trying to move up to draft Drake Maye.
And can someone please notify the Giants brass that the word "TRAIL", which is the acronym above the team's training facility, has precisely the wrong meaning for a team with championship aspirations. A better word would its antithesis, "LEAD".
Agreed on TRAIL... terrible messaging.
And as you said, at some point, you OWN the situation.
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
The reaction to Hard Knocks and the parsing of everything said that has gone on today on here is the exact reason why most teams don’t want to go on Hard Knocks.
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
The reaction to Hard Knocks and the parsing of everything said that has gone on today on here is the exact reason why most teams don’t want to go on Hard Knocks.
Exactly. PIA for teams. "fun?" for some fans.
RE: RE: mara wasnt wrong about needing to draft a rb
or the reality that most good rbs are high (day 2) picks. the guy they signed to replace him had been a day 2 pick.
as hopeful as we want to be re tyrone tracy the odds say most day 3 picks end up like eric gray and arent ready to contribute in year 1 if ever. before barkley there was a decade of proof in the form of paul perkins, wayne gallman, andre brown, andre williams, michael cox, darel scott, that finding ahmad bradshaw's isnt so simple.
I somewhat agree. I have no problem going RB in the second at any time.
But also bad scouting and bad OL was a significant part of that era of bad RB picks. Some of those guys had NFL ability and were thrown into bad situations.
i dont recall any of them finding their way to other better situations and thriving.
and the bar for thriving isn't that high, when the nyg went out and signed rashad jennings that was a pretty big upgrade at the time and he was an entirely mediocre player.
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
The reaction to Hard Knocks and the parsing of everything said that has gone on today on here is the exact reason why most teams don’t want to go on Hard Knocks.
another W for Daboll - smart enough to avoid as much as he can.
Ryan Dunleavy
@rydunleavy
Tim McDonnell asked the best question of this episode.
Whats our offensive identity going to be without Saquon?
NFL front office isnt the place for yes men. Everyone knew what Joe Schoen wanted to do.
One of #Giants lieutenants HAD TO raise the counterpoint
This team's offensive identity during Barkley's tenure was "can't score at NFL average rate." Someone needs to ask him if that was the identity he was suggesting that needed to be recast.
"Great point, Tim. We are going to move from an inefficient offense that centers around Barkley, to an inefficient offense that centers around Jones. Who's printing the t-shirts?"
I am not taking away very much from the first episode
Except for my confirmation bias about John Mara. You really do get the sense that he’s trying to put his thumb on the scale and influence. His comment about having to draft a running back high if we get rid of Barkley confirmed to me that he really does not understand how to acquire players in this league
RE: I am not taking away very much from the first episode
Except for my confirmation bias about John Mara. You really do get the sense that he’s trying to put his thumb on the scale and influence. His comment about having to draft a running back high if we get rid of Barkley confirmed to me that he really does not understand how to acquire players in this league
But, Schoen shot that down. To me it just confirmed that he wanted Barkley in 2023 off season so badly that Giants gave MORE to Jones to mnake sure they could franchise Barkley. Schoen was not paying huge dollars to a RB (which would actually blow up the RB market) with decent to above average wear and tear and a history of being injured.
He bought Jones. He had a chance for a graceful and/or accelerated exit this year and he passed.
He's now on record among the recent principals who have advocated for getting more weapons and better pass protection.
I think you're right. 3/$112.5M are the terms we should focus on. I'd say there is a good chance QB is drafted next April, but Jones is the placeholder for another year.
Yup. Jones coming back in 2025 is an easy call. Hopefully he gets his Mahomes, or at least his Kaepernick in the draft.
RE: I am not taking away very much from the first episode
Except for my confirmation bias about John Mara. You really do get the sense that he’s trying to put his thumb on the scale and influence. His comment about having to draft a running back high if we get rid of Barkley confirmed to me that he really does not understand how to acquire players in this league
My interpretation of that exchange was this:
Mara is still very old school and thinks RB is a premium position. So, Schoen, trying to be respectful, let Mara have his say, and then remind him there was other solutions in free agency that could help the team.
To me, that was one of the main reveals in Episode 1. This organization still has an inordinate number of old school thinking when it comes to building a team...
He bought Jones. He had a chance for a graceful and/or accelerated exit this year and he passed.
He's now on record among the recent principals who have advocated for getting more weapons and better pass protection.
I think you're right. 3/$112.5M are the terms we should focus on. I'd say there is a good chance QB is drafted next April, but Jones is the placeholder for another year.
Yup. Jones coming back in 2025 is an easy call. Hopefully he gets his Mahomes, or at least his Kaepernick in the draft.
I don't think the Giants will have better QB options in the 2025 draft than they did in the 2024 draft - they likely won't be picking higher and there likely won't be several more top prospects - so if they do draft one it may be due in part to a greater sense of urgency. Who knows, maybe there will be 8 top-10 prospects and we they can just wait for any of them to fall?
I think there is just as much possibility that Daniel Jones plays out the full 4 year contract he signed as the Giants strater. All of these short term band-aid solutions may end up with Jones becoming a 10 year starter for this team while the Giants wait for the stars to align to deliver them there next Chosen One.
He bought Jones. He had a chance for a graceful and/or accelerated exit this year and he passed.
He's now on record among the recent principals who have advocated for getting more weapons and better pass protection.
I think you're right. 3/$112.5M are the terms we should focus on. I'd say there is a good chance QB is drafted next April, but Jones is the placeholder for another year.
Yup. Jones coming back in 2025 is an easy call. Hopefully he gets his Mahomes, or at least his Kaepernick in the draft.
I don't think the Giants will have better QB options in the 2025 draft than they did in the 2024 draft - they likely won't be picking higher and there likely won't be several more top prospects - so if they do draft one it may be due in part to a greater sense of urgency. Who knows, maybe there will be 8 top-10 prospects and we they can just wait for any of them to fall?
I think there is just as much possibility that Daniel Jones plays out the full 4 year contract he signed as the Giants strater. All of these short term band-aid solutions may end up with Jones becoming a 10 year starter for this team while the Giants wait for the stars to align to deliver them there next Chosen One.
The thought of ten years of Jones is a better vomit inducer than ipokak
Did Tim McDonnell current title, Director of Player Personnel look like a part of Schoen's inner circle like Brown, Hickey and Rossetti clearly are? Or did he seem to have a different relationship with Schoen than those other employees?
Did you see anything last night that would even give you a hint that this John Mara quote was true?
Quote:
"Tim is probably the most respected guy we have in this building. Coaches, front office staff and the general manager go to him and ask his advice on players because he is a good evaluator.
"He's worked his way up from the bottom and he's earned his stripes. He does not have any authority here."
If he doesn't have any authority than why would Dan Duggan write this in The Athletic?
Quote:
The comments from Mara and McDonnell show that there were influential skeptics of letting Barkley walk. The fact that the Giants ultimately did so supports Mara’s claim that he doesn’t strong-arm personnel decisions.
Tim Donnell influential skeptic with no authority, who by coincidence is next in line to succeed John Mara as President and Chief Executive Officer/Board Director of the New York Football Giants.
Did Tim McDonnell current title, Director of Player Personnel look like a part of Schoen's inner circle like Brown, Hickey and Rossetti clearly are? Or did he seem to have a different relationship with Schoen than those other employees?
Did you see anything last night that would even give you a hint that this John Mara quote was true?
Quote:
"Tim is probably the most respected guy we have in this building. Coaches, front office staff and the general manager go to him and ask his advice on players because he is a good evaluator.
"He's worked his way up from the bottom and he's earned his stripes. He does not have any authority here."
If he doesn't have any authority than why would Dan Duggan write this in The Athletic?
Quote:
The comments from Mara and McDonnell show that there were influential skeptics of letting Barkley walk. The fact that the Giants ultimately did so supports Mara’s claim that he doesn’t strong-arm personnel decisions.
Tim Donnell influential skeptic with no authority, who by coincidence is next in line to succeed John Mara as President and Chief Executive Officer/Board Director of the New York Football Giants.
No micromanaging here.
And yet has no decision making power as Barkley is not on the roster
And exactly how do you know he is being groomed to take over?
Seems like no matter the sport…you take issue with ownership no matter what the particular sport is
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
The reaction to Hard Knocks and the parsing of everything said that has gone on today on here is the exact reason why most teams don’t want to go on Hard Knocks.
Art knows where is bread is buttered.
If you're wondering why there's so little of Daboll...
I propose all Hard Knocks threads moving forward include the following disclaimer:
"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."
Months of work and hours of conversation boiled down to a few clips simply cannot yield certainty in any one area, so take the edits with a grain of salt. There's good info there, but I don't think anything can be viewed with end-all certainty.
Excellent post. We see what we want to see.
Yes, but we also saw what we saw.
Right or wrong (different subject), Mara was arguing a certain position. We saw it. It happened.
What is Mara supposed to do? Stand in the corner and say “yes boss”? He’s the president. He offers his opinion on big items. Just like the head of every other team or company in the world.
RE: RE: I am not taking away very much from the first episode
Except for my confirmation bias about John Mara. You really do get the sense that he’s trying to put his thumb on the scale and influence. His comment about having to draft a running back high if we get rid of Barkley confirmed to me that he really does not understand how to acquire players in this league
My interpretation of that exchange was this:
Mara is still very old school and thinks RB is a premium position. So, Schoen, trying to be respectful, let Mara have his say, and then remind him there was other solutions in free agency that could help the team.
To me, that was one of the main reveals in Episode 1. This organization still has an inordinate number of old school thinking when it comes to building a team...
I interpreted the same thing. For all that most of the NFL already understands, Schoen has work to do in educating his management. They still view RB as a premium position.
I'm finding I agree with Schoen more and more. DJ has a chance to prove himself. Our OL was historically bad 0 the data was unrefutable. for our run gamne, for all 3 or our QBs, etc. . . . I'm hopeful that we see some improvement this year just due to our OL.
I propose all Hard Knocks threads moving forward include the following disclaimer:
"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."
Months of work and hours of conversation boiled down to a few clips simply cannot yield certainty in any one area, so take the edits with a grain of salt. There's good info there, but I don't think anything can be viewed with end-all certainty.
Excellent post. We see what we want to see.
Yes, but we also saw what we saw.
Right or wrong (different subject), Mara was arguing a certain position. We saw it. It happened.
What is Mara supposed to do? Stand in the corner and say “yes boss”? He’s the president. He offers his opinion on big items. Just like the head of every other team or company in the world.
The head of a company with this as it's 10 year performance portfolio.
He is *supposed* do what's best for the company. His calls are what led to this.
Hopefully what wasn't aired is Schoen and Mara coming to a mutual agreement. Schoen winning out is not a good outcome. If Barkley has a good year and the Giants don't, that's when things will get ugly. That's when the I told you so-s come into play.
I view excessive swearing by grown men as a sign of immaturity and insecurity. There were a couple scenes where every other word out of his mouth was an F bomb. Low class.
I view excessive swearing by grown men as a sign of immaturity and insecurity. There were a couple scenes where every other word out of his mouth was an F bomb. Low class.
Inn most (not all) companies I've been in, cursing internally isn't a problem and is taken in context. When I'm in charge, I'm fine (again internally) with it. That's the culture I want. I've also found with younger groups it's not even a thought.
And this is a football team. You expect guys to metaphorically kill the other team, but not curse?
As for Barkley/RB scene, the fact that he wasn’t traded for a pick last season and now this short video skeptics-conversation are perfect examples of why you don’t want this ownership seriously involved in football decisions. They suck at them.
If the sentiment is ownership will have a say in big football decisions then we need to just hope that they are predominately aligned to what Schoen is already thinking. Otherwise we as fans have to pray for luck.
I will also convey that the Barkley decision isn’t really a big football decision. It was an easy one. Unless of course you can’t adapt to what has been going on in the NFL very well.
I view excessive swearing by grown men as a sign of immaturity and insecurity. There were a couple scenes where every other word out of his mouth was an F bomb. Low class.
I’m not crazy about excessive swearing in the workplace but it has been part of the NFL culture for a long, long time. What surprised me is it wasn’t bleeped out - if memory serves that wasn’t the case on previous iterations of HK.
As for Barkley/RB scene, the fact that he wasn’t traded for a pick last season and now this short video skeptics-conversation are perfect examples of why you don’t want this ownership seriously involved in football decisions. They suck at them.
If the sentiment is ownership will have a say in big football decisions then we need to just hope that they are predominately aligned to what Schoen is already thinking. Otherwise we as fans have to pray for luck.
I will also convey that the Barkley decision isn’t really a big football decision. It was an easy one. Unless of course you can’t adapt to what has been going on in the NFL very well.
Ha. Guess none of you were sailors....
I agree that out in public using the F word is not a good look. Internally, among friends, who really gives a crap?
RE: RE: Agree, not a good look for Schoen with his mouth.
As for Barkley/RB scene, the fact that he wasn’t traded for a pick last season and now this short video skeptics-conversation are perfect examples of why you don’t want this ownership seriously involved in football decisions. They suck at them.
If the sentiment is ownership will have a say in big football decisions then we need to just hope that they are predominately aligned to what Schoen is already thinking. Otherwise we as fans have to pray for luck.
I will also convey that the Barkley decision isn’t really a big football decision. It was an easy one. Unless of course you can’t adapt to what has been going on in the NFL very well.
Ha. Guess none of you were sailors....
I agree that out in public using the F word is not a good look. Internally, among friends, who really gives a crap?
Depends on the company you keep. Or the company others choose to keep.
That the new DC said the two smartest players on the field need to be the inside linebackers or did you just focus on F words, Barkley and Jones and ignore anything else.
Generally express their views on key decisions, even ones they have delegated. But where the NYG diverge from most organizations is the person at the top of the Giants organization didn’t grow up in the industry he works and has no talent for the work being done by the people he employs.
The Giants situation is more akin to a hospital than a bank. In a bank, you probably have a CEO who has worked in banking his entire life and has excelled at it. He may designate decisions to those below him, but his views are very pertinent and should be considered based on his experience.
In a hospital, your CEO probably has vast experience in hospital operations and finance. But they have heads of medical practices who report to them administratively, but would never consult with him on medical questions because that is not his training and background.
I don’t think Mara understands his value to the franchise is in the administration of the organization and the league, but he football decisions - outside of “we don’t want that individual in our building” - are best left to the people he hired who are trained in this profession. John Mara has been around football his whole life, but he has never had to make a scouting or coaching decision of consequence in his life. He understands the business of football, not the game of football.
I imagine that each industry has their own culture of language...
And in the sports industry, I'm quite certain that F-bombs are not only quite acceptable and natural, but are a form of communication that has a specific and unique purpose. As a high school teacher, in which I hear F-bombs regulary out of the mouths of students, I will maybe once or twice over the course of the year use it myself for effect. If I did it regularly it would make me a clown, but using it oh so rarely can be effective. When I worked on Wall Street, not only were F-bombs used regularly as adjectives, it was also not uncommon for it be used as a verb or even a noun. Wall Street execs love to get graphic when they are angry and when it comes to the movie industry, forget about it.
Ryan Dunleavy
@rydunleavy
Tim McDonnell asked the best question of this episode.
Whats our offensive identity going to be without Saquon?
NFL front office isnt the place for yes men. Everyone knew what Joe Schoen wanted to do.
One of #Giants lieutenants HAD TO raise the counterpoint
And here's my question (because I don't have HBO and am unable to hear the inflection in McDonnell's voice when asking the question), did he ask it as a question that he himself had or was it a case of pointing out to his boss that this is a question that needs to be asked and answered when making the decision?
Generally express their views on key decisions, even ones they have delegated. But where the NYG diverge from most organizations is the person at the top of the Giants organization didn’t grow up in the industry he works and has no talent for the work being done by the people he employs.
The Giants situation is more akin to a hospital than a bank. In a bank, you probably have a CEO who has worked in banking his entire life and has excelled at it. He may designate decisions to those below him, but his views are very pertinent and should be considered based on his experience.
In a hospital, your CEO probably has vast experience in hospital operations and finance. But they have heads of medical practices who report to them administratively, but would never consult with him on medical questions because that is not his training and background.
I don’t think Mara understands his value to the franchise is in the administration of the organization and the league, but he football decisions - outside of “we don’t want that individual in our building” - are best left to the people he hired who are trained in this profession. John Mara has been around football his whole life, but he has never had to make a scouting or coaching decision of consequence in his life. He understands the business of football, not the game of football.
When I listen to Dan Campbell, I am actually shocked when he doesn't use profanity! He literally breathes f-bombs!
I remember watching the Cowboys several years ago on the Prime series "All or Nothing" and hearing Jason Garrett drop f-bombs left and right and couldn't help but feel like it was his way of trying to be a tough guy. It felt completely inauthentic and I can't imagine anyone would ever be "intimidated" by such obvious theatrics. In contrast, when the Colts were on Hard Knocks, Frank Reich, who is devoutly religious, never once used profanity. And he had complete control over that locker room.
In watching Joe Schoen use profanity, it felt to me out of place. Schoen is a cerebral buttoned up man of high character. Yes, using profanity prudently as required to make critical points on momentous occasions would be impactful. But him overusing f-bombs in every sentence just makes him look inauthentic and foolish.
Generally express their views on key decisions, even ones they have delegated. But where the NYG diverge from most organizations is the person at the top of the Giants organization didn’t grow up in the industry he works and has no talent for the work being done by the people he employs.
The Giants situation is more akin to a hospital than a bank. In a bank, you probably have a CEO who has worked in banking his entire life and has excelled at it. He may designate decisions to those below him, but his views are very pertinent and should be considered based on his experience.
In a hospital, your CEO probably has vast experience in hospital operations and finance. But they have heads of medical practices who report to them administratively, but would never consult with him on medical questions because that is not his training and background.
I don’t think Mara understands his value to the franchise is in the administration of the organization and the league, but he football decisions - outside of “we don’t want that individual in our building” - are best left to the people he hired who are trained in this profession. John Mara has been around football his whole life, but he has never had to make a scouting or coaching decision of consequence in his life. He understands the business of football, not the game of football.
Great analogy!
And yet this site is full of folks who likely never played a down of football feel themselves to be fully qualified to sound off on what the team does and does not do!
Generally express their views on key decisions, even ones they have delegated. But where the NYG diverge from most organizations is the person at the top of the Giants organization didn’t grow up in the industry he works and has no talent for the work being done by the people he employs.
The Giants situation is more akin to a hospital than a bank. In a bank, you probably have a CEO who has worked in banking his entire life and has excelled at it. He may designate decisions to those below him, but his views are very pertinent and should be considered based on his experience.
In a hospital, your CEO probably has vast experience in hospital operations and finance. But they have heads of medical practices who report to them administratively, but would never consult with him on medical questions because that is not his training and background.
I don’t think Mara understands his value to the franchise is in the administration of the organization and the league, but he football decisions - outside of “we don’t want that individual in our building” - are best left to the people he hired who are trained in this profession. John Mara has been around football his whole life, but he has never had to make a scouting or coaching decision of consequence in his life. He understands the business of football, not the game of football.
Great analogy!
And yet this site is full of folks who likely never played a down of football feel themselves to be fully qualified to sound off on what the team does and does not do!
I'm not sure you understand the purpose of a fan forum.
That's awesome ... in the fact that I've paid this team "little to no mind" since the 40-0 game, that's how very little I keep up with them anymore.
I've been busy living my own live and fighting off the ladies. No, seriously. Anyway. Just tap the skies when the Giants become worth anything and Daddy 9 will speak some more golden knowledge.
I am impressed with myself that I'm finding out about the Hard Knocks thing just now, lol.
And can someone please notify the Giants brass that the word "TRAIL", which is the acronym above the team's training facility, has precisely the wrong meaning for a team with championship aspirations. A better word would its antithesis, "LEAD".
He bought Jones. He had a chance for a graceful and/or accelerated exit this year and he passed.
He's now on record among the recent principals who have advocated for getting more weapons and better pass protection.
He bought Jones. He had a chance for a graceful and/or accelerated exit this year and he passed.
He's now on record among the recent principals who have advocated for getting more weapons and better pass protection.
I think you're right. 3/$112.5M are the terms we should focus on. I'd say there is a good chance QB is drafted next April, but Jones is the placeholder for another year.
Don't tell me Mara didn't play a big role in resigning Jones. As I've said in multiple threads, there is no way that after reviewing the first 4 years of Jones' career, Schoen and Daboll decided that "he's our guy".
as hopeful as we want to be re tyrone tracy the odds say most day 3 picks end up like eric gray and arent ready to contribute in year 1 if ever. before barkley there was a decade of proof in the form of paul perkins, wayne gallman, andre brown, andre williams, michael cox, darel scott, that finding ahmad bradshaw's isnt so simple.
I somewhat agree. I have no problem going RB in the second at any time.
But also bad scouting and bad OL was a significant part of that era of bad RB picks. Some of those guys had NFL ability and were thrown into bad situations.
Quote:
Mike I agree. 82M isn't a test drive. At the risk of opening this can for the millionth time, guys like Smith and Mayfield are test drives. They got 27M and 40M respectively.
He bought Jones. He had a chance for a graceful and/or accelerated exit this year and he passed.
He's now on record among the recent principals who have advocated for getting more weapons and better pass protection.
I think you're right. 3/$112.5M are the terms we should focus on. I'd say there is a good chance QB is drafted next April, but Jones is the placeholder for another year.
The way he said so matter of factly "we need to find out if he's our guy for the next ten years" speaks to me that he *wasnt* convinced and he sees that contract as not a firm commitment.
And can someone please notify the Giants brass that the word "TRAIL", which is the acronym above the team's training facility, has precisely the wrong meaning for a team with championship aspirations. A better word would its antithesis, "LEAD".
Agreed on TRAIL... terrible messaging.
And as you said, at some point, you OWN the situation.
@art_stapleton
The reaction to Hard Knocks and the parsing of everything said that has gone on today on here is the exact reason why most teams don’t want to go on Hard Knocks.
@art_stapleton
The reaction to Hard Knocks and the parsing of everything said that has gone on today on here is the exact reason why most teams don’t want to go on Hard Knocks.
Exactly. PIA for teams. "fun?" for some fans.
Quote:
or the reality that most good rbs are high (day 2) picks. the guy they signed to replace him had been a day 2 pick.
as hopeful as we want to be re tyrone tracy the odds say most day 3 picks end up like eric gray and arent ready to contribute in year 1 if ever. before barkley there was a decade of proof in the form of paul perkins, wayne gallman, andre brown, andre williams, michael cox, darel scott, that finding ahmad bradshaw's isnt so simple.
I somewhat agree. I have no problem going RB in the second at any time.
But also bad scouting and bad OL was a significant part of that era of bad RB picks. Some of those guys had NFL ability and were thrown into bad situations.
i dont recall any of them finding their way to other better situations and thriving.
and the bar for thriving isn't that high, when the nyg went out and signed rashad jennings that was a pretty big upgrade at the time and he was an entirely mediocre player.
@art_stapleton
The reaction to Hard Knocks and the parsing of everything said that has gone on today on here is the exact reason why most teams don’t want to go on Hard Knocks.
another W for Daboll - smart enough to avoid as much as he can.
@rydunleavy
Tim McDonnell asked the best question of this episode.
Whats our offensive identity going to be without Saquon?
NFL front office isnt the place for yes men. Everyone knew what Joe Schoen wanted to do.
One of #Giants lieutenants HAD TO raise the counterpoint
This team's offensive identity during Barkley's tenure was "can't score at NFL average rate." Someone needs to ask him if that was the identity he was suggesting that needed to be recast.
"Great point, Tim. We are going to move from an inefficient offense that centers around Barkley, to an inefficient offense that centers around Jones. Who's printing the t-shirts?"
But, Schoen shot that down. To me it just confirmed that he wanted Barkley in 2023 off season so badly that Giants gave MORE to Jones to mnake sure they could franchise Barkley. Schoen was not paying huge dollars to a RB (which would actually blow up the RB market) with decent to above average wear and tear and a history of being injured.
And as you said, at some point, you OWN the situation.
When you've scored the third fewest points over a decade, this is a pretty appropriate slogan.
He's now on record among the recent principals who have advocated for getting more weapons and better pass protection.
I think you're right. 3/$112.5M are the terms we should focus on. I'd say there is a good chance QB is drafted next April, but Jones is the placeholder for another year.
Yup. Jones coming back in 2025 is an easy call. Hopefully he gets his Mahomes, or at least his Kaepernick in the draft.
My interpretation of that exchange was this:
Mara is still very old school and thinks RB is a premium position. So, Schoen, trying to be respectful, let Mara have his say, and then remind him there was other solutions in free agency that could help the team.
To me, that was one of the main reveals in Episode 1. This organization still has an inordinate number of old school thinking when it comes to building a team...
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He bought Jones. He had a chance for a graceful and/or accelerated exit this year and he passed.
He's now on record among the recent principals who have advocated for getting more weapons and better pass protection.
I think you're right. 3/$112.5M are the terms we should focus on. I'd say there is a good chance QB is drafted next April, but Jones is the placeholder for another year.
Yup. Jones coming back in 2025 is an easy call. Hopefully he gets his Mahomes, or at least his Kaepernick in the draft.
I don't think the Giants will have better QB options in the 2025 draft than they did in the 2024 draft - they likely won't be picking higher and there likely won't be several more top prospects - so if they do draft one it may be due in part to a greater sense of urgency. Who knows, maybe there will be 8 top-10 prospects and we they can just wait for any of them to fall?
I think there is just as much possibility that Daniel Jones plays out the full 4 year contract he signed as the Giants strater. All of these short term band-aid solutions may end up with Jones becoming a 10 year starter for this team while the Giants wait for the stars to align to deliver them there next Chosen One.
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In comment 16547948 Sean said:
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He bought Jones. He had a chance for a graceful and/or accelerated exit this year and he passed.
He's now on record among the recent principals who have advocated for getting more weapons and better pass protection.
I think you're right. 3/$112.5M are the terms we should focus on. I'd say there is a good chance QB is drafted next April, but Jones is the placeholder for another year.
Yup. Jones coming back in 2025 is an easy call. Hopefully he gets his Mahomes, or at least his Kaepernick in the draft.
I don't think the Giants will have better QB options in the 2025 draft than they did in the 2024 draft - they likely won't be picking higher and there likely won't be several more top prospects - so if they do draft one it may be due in part to a greater sense of urgency. Who knows, maybe there will be 8 top-10 prospects and we they can just wait for any of them to fall?
I think there is just as much possibility that Daniel Jones plays out the full 4 year contract he signed as the Giants strater. All of these short term band-aid solutions may end up with Jones becoming a 10 year starter for this team while the Giants wait for the stars to align to deliver them there next Chosen One.
The thought of ten years of Jones is a better vomit inducer than ipokak
Did you see anything last night that would even give you a hint that this John Mara quote was true?
"He's worked his way up from the bottom and he's earned his stripes. He does not have any authority here."
If he doesn't have any authority than why would Dan Duggan write this in The Athletic?
Tim Donnell influential skeptic with no authority, who by coincidence is next in line to succeed John Mara as President and Chief Executive Officer/Board Director of the New York Football Giants.
No micromanaging here.
Did you see anything last night that would even give you a hint that this John Mara quote was true?
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"Tim is probably the most respected guy we have in this building. Coaches, front office staff and the general manager go to him and ask his advice on players because he is a good evaluator.
"He's worked his way up from the bottom and he's earned his stripes. He does not have any authority here."
If he doesn't have any authority than why would Dan Duggan write this in The Athletic?
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The comments from Mara and McDonnell show that there were influential skeptics of letting Barkley walk. The fact that the Giants ultimately did so supports Mara’s claim that he doesn’t strong-arm personnel decisions.
Tim Donnell influential skeptic with no authority, who by coincidence is next in line to succeed John Mara as President and Chief Executive Officer/Board Director of the New York Football Giants.
No micromanaging here.
And yet has no decision making power as Barkley is not on the roster
And exactly how do you know he is being groomed to take over?
Seems like no matter the sport…you take issue with ownership no matter what the particular sport is
100%.
As long as the Maras own this team, we will get what we get.
Some good. Mostly bad.
@art_stapleton
The reaction to Hard Knocks and the parsing of everything said that has gone on today on here is the exact reason why most teams don’t want to go on Hard Knocks.
Art knows where is bread is buttered.
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In comment 16547752 GP said:
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I propose all Hard Knocks threads moving forward include the following disclaimer:
"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."
Months of work and hours of conversation boiled down to a few clips simply cannot yield certainty in any one area, so take the edits with a grain of salt. There's good info there, but I don't think anything can be viewed with end-all certainty.
Excellent post. We see what we want to see.
Yes, but we also saw what we saw.
Right or wrong (different subject), Mara was arguing a certain position. We saw it. It happened.
What is Mara supposed to do? Stand in the corner and say “yes boss”? He’s the president. He offers his opinion on big items. Just like the head of every other team or company in the world.
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Except for my confirmation bias about John Mara. You really do get the sense that he’s trying to put his thumb on the scale and influence. His comment about having to draft a running back high if we get rid of Barkley confirmed to me that he really does not understand how to acquire players in this league
My interpretation of that exchange was this:
Mara is still very old school and thinks RB is a premium position. So, Schoen, trying to be respectful, let Mara have his say, and then remind him there was other solutions in free agency that could help the team.
To me, that was one of the main reveals in Episode 1. This organization still has an inordinate number of old school thinking when it comes to building a team...
I interpreted the same thing. For all that most of the NFL already understands, Schoen has work to do in educating his management. They still view RB as a premium position.
I'm finding I agree with Schoen more and more. DJ has a chance to prove himself. Our OL was historically bad 0 the data was unrefutable. for our run gamne, for all 3 or our QBs, etc. . . . I'm hopeful that we see some improvement this year just due to our OL.
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In comment 16547824 Chris in Philly said:
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In comment 16547752 GP said:
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I propose all Hard Knocks threads moving forward include the following disclaimer:
"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."
Months of work and hours of conversation boiled down to a few clips simply cannot yield certainty in any one area, so take the edits with a grain of salt. There's good info there, but I don't think anything can be viewed with end-all certainty.
Excellent post. We see what we want to see.
Yes, but we also saw what we saw.
Right or wrong (different subject), Mara was arguing a certain position. We saw it. It happened.
What is Mara supposed to do? Stand in the corner and say “yes boss”? He’s the president. He offers his opinion on big items. Just like the head of every other team or company in the world.
The head of a company with this as it's 10 year performance portfolio.
He is *supposed* do what's best for the company. His calls are what led to this.
Potty mouth joe
And this is a football team. You expect guys to metaphorically kill the other team, but not curse?
As for Barkley/RB scene, the fact that he wasn’t traded for a pick last season and now this short video skeptics-conversation are perfect examples of why you don’t want this ownership seriously involved in football decisions. They suck at them.
If the sentiment is ownership will have a say in big football decisions then we need to just hope that they are predominately aligned to what Schoen is already thinking. Otherwise we as fans have to pray for luck.
I will also convey that the Barkley decision isn’t really a big football decision. It was an easy one. Unless of course you can’t adapt to what has been going on in the NFL very well.
I’m not crazy about excessive swearing in the workplace but it has been part of the NFL culture for a long, long time. What surprised me is it wasn’t bleeped out - if memory serves that wasn’t the case on previous iterations of HK.
I doubt a single person on BBI expects McDonnell to say something intelligent or strategic on any episode of HK.
As for Barkley/RB scene, the fact that he wasn’t traded for a pick last season and now this short video skeptics-conversation are perfect examples of why you don’t want this ownership seriously involved in football decisions. They suck at them.
If the sentiment is ownership will have a say in big football decisions then we need to just hope that they are predominately aligned to what Schoen is already thinking. Otherwise we as fans have to pray for luck.
I will also convey that the Barkley decision isn’t really a big football decision. It was an easy one. Unless of course you can’t adapt to what has been going on in the NFL very well.
Ha. Guess none of you were sailors....
I agree that out in public using the F word is not a good look. Internally, among friends, who really gives a crap?
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Hopefully his wife or kids let’s him know.
As for Barkley/RB scene, the fact that he wasn’t traded for a pick last season and now this short video skeptics-conversation are perfect examples of why you don’t want this ownership seriously involved in football decisions. They suck at them.
If the sentiment is ownership will have a say in big football decisions then we need to just hope that they are predominately aligned to what Schoen is already thinking. Otherwise we as fans have to pray for luck.
I will also convey that the Barkley decision isn’t really a big football decision. It was an easy one. Unless of course you can’t adapt to what has been going on in the NFL very well.
Ha. Guess none of you were sailors....
I agree that out in public using the F word is not a good look. Internally, among friends, who really gives a crap?
Depends on the company you keep. Or the company others choose to keep.
The Giants situation is more akin to a hospital than a bank. In a bank, you probably have a CEO who has worked in banking his entire life and has excelled at it. He may designate decisions to those below him, but his views are very pertinent and should be considered based on his experience.
In a hospital, your CEO probably has vast experience in hospital operations and finance. But they have heads of medical practices who report to them administratively, but would never consult with him on medical questions because that is not his training and background.
I don’t think Mara understands his value to the franchise is in the administration of the organization and the league, but he football decisions - outside of “we don’t want that individual in our building” - are best left to the people he hired who are trained in this profession. John Mara has been around football his whole life, but he has never had to make a scouting or coaching decision of consequence in his life. He understands the business of football, not the game of football.
How they talk on Wall Street
And in Hollywood
@rydunleavy
Tim McDonnell asked the best question of this episode.
Whats our offensive identity going to be without Saquon?
NFL front office isnt the place for yes men. Everyone knew what Joe Schoen wanted to do.
One of #Giants lieutenants HAD TO raise the counterpoint
The Giants situation is more akin to a hospital than a bank. In a bank, you probably have a CEO who has worked in banking his entire life and has excelled at it. He may designate decisions to those below him, but his views are very pertinent and should be considered based on his experience.
In a hospital, your CEO probably has vast experience in hospital operations and finance. But they have heads of medical practices who report to them administratively, but would never consult with him on medical questions because that is not his training and background.
I don’t think Mara understands his value to the franchise is in the administration of the organization and the league, but he football decisions - outside of “we don’t want that individual in our building” - are best left to the people he hired who are trained in this profession. John Mara has been around football his whole life, but he has never had to make a scouting or coaching decision of consequence in his life. He understands the business of football, not the game of football.
Great analogy!
I remember watching the Cowboys several years ago on the Prime series "All or Nothing" and hearing Jason Garrett drop f-bombs left and right and couldn't help but feel like it was his way of trying to be a tough guy. It felt completely inauthentic and I can't imagine anyone would ever be "intimidated" by such obvious theatrics. In contrast, when the Colts were on Hard Knocks, Frank Reich, who is devoutly religious, never once used profanity. And he had complete control over that locker room.
In watching Joe Schoen use profanity, it felt to me out of place. Schoen is a cerebral buttoned up man of high character. Yes, using profanity prudently as required to make critical points on momentous occasions would be impactful. But him overusing f-bombs in every sentence just makes him look inauthentic and foolish.
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Generally express their views on key decisions, even ones they have delegated. But where the NYG diverge from most organizations is the person at the top of the Giants organization didn’t grow up in the industry he works and has no talent for the work being done by the people he employs.
The Giants situation is more akin to a hospital than a bank. In a bank, you probably have a CEO who has worked in banking his entire life and has excelled at it. He may designate decisions to those below him, but his views are very pertinent and should be considered based on his experience.
In a hospital, your CEO probably has vast experience in hospital operations and finance. But they have heads of medical practices who report to them administratively, but would never consult with him on medical questions because that is not his training and background.
I don’t think Mara understands his value to the franchise is in the administration of the organization and the league, but he football decisions - outside of “we don’t want that individual in our building” - are best left to the people he hired who are trained in this profession. John Mara has been around football his whole life, but he has never had to make a scouting or coaching decision of consequence in his life. He understands the business of football, not the game of football.
Great analogy!
And yet this site is full of folks who likely never played a down of football feel themselves to be fully qualified to sound off on what the team does and does not do!
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In comment 16548238 Mike from Ohio said:
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Generally express their views on key decisions, even ones they have delegated. But where the NYG diverge from most organizations is the person at the top of the Giants organization didn’t grow up in the industry he works and has no talent for the work being done by the people he employs.
The Giants situation is more akin to a hospital than a bank. In a bank, you probably have a CEO who has worked in banking his entire life and has excelled at it. He may designate decisions to those below him, but his views are very pertinent and should be considered based on his experience.
In a hospital, your CEO probably has vast experience in hospital operations and finance. But they have heads of medical practices who report to them administratively, but would never consult with him on medical questions because that is not his training and background.
I don’t think Mara understands his value to the franchise is in the administration of the organization and the league, but he football decisions - outside of “we don’t want that individual in our building” - are best left to the people he hired who are trained in this profession. John Mara has been around football his whole life, but he has never had to make a scouting or coaching decision of consequence in his life. He understands the business of football, not the game of football.
Great analogy!
And yet this site is full of folks who likely never played a down of football feel themselves to be fully qualified to sound off on what the team does and does not do!
I'm not sure you understand the purpose of a fan forum.
That's awesome ... in the fact that I've paid this team "little to no mind" since the 40-0 game, that's how very little I keep up with them anymore.
I've been busy living my own live and fighting off the ladies. No, seriously. Anyway. Just tap the skies when the Giants become worth anything and Daddy 9 will speak some more golden knowledge.
I am impressed with myself that I'm finding out about the Hard Knocks thing just now, lol.