First of all - Patriots were never going to trade that pick away. It made no sense - if they did, they would have robbed whoever they gave the pick too.
Second - Schoen said - let's give Jones a competent OL and give him a fair chance to prove it - or Pivot. Pivot is clearly not saying he's the future of the franchise.
Weakest link on O was the line - 2 years ago, they used 2 of 1st 3 picks on OL. This offseason they used much of FA $ on proven OL starters. You're not doing anything on offense until you fix the front five. and as they have been attempting that - they have added some skill players Robinson, Hyatt, and Nabers, Johnson, even Bellinger. Not sure what some of you guys expect.
and not sure if it's been mentioned before but Bowen mentioned the importance of the 2 ILBs in his scheme.
I'll have to go back and watch, but I thought he said the inside linebacker and safety have to be the brains of the defense (nothing unusual there, usually why the ILB or S wears the green dot).
What we don't know is how much the second ILB will be on the field. From what I can tell, Vrabel/Bowen used a TON of nickel and dime, which suggests the second ILB comes off (or we may see more of the hybrid "money" backer such as Isaiah Simmons.
My gut still says the nickel corner (probably our 3rd rounder) will be playing more than the second ILB.
and not sure if it's been mentioned before but Bowen mentioned the importance of the 2 ILBs in his scheme.
I'll have to go back and watch, but I thought he said the inside linebacker and safety have to be the brains of the defense (nothing unusual there, usually why the ILB or S wears the green dot).
What we don't know is how much the second ILB will be on the field. From what I can tell, Vrabel/Bowen used a TON of nickel and dime, which suggests the second ILB comes off (or we may see more of the hybrid "money" backer such as Isaiah Simmons.
My gut still says the nickel corner (probably our 3rd rounder) will be playing more than the second ILB.
this is correct. here was his player usage in TEN on the defense that stayed the healthiest and had the most success (2021). i think this is what would be considered close to his "ideal" personnel based on everything we've heard.
s kevin byard 1050 snaps (96%)
de harold landry 981 snaps (89%)
dl jeffrey simmons 932 (85%)
cb jackrabbit jenkins 861 (78%)
cb kristian fulton 737 (67%)
dl denico autry 709 (64%)
s amani hooker 704 (64%)
lb david long 634 (57%)
cb elijah molden 632 (57%)
note that this is:
3 pass rushers (likely to be burns, thibs, lawrence)
5 defensive backs (competition tbd)
1 linebacker (this will be okereke, not sure who wore green dot for him in 2021 but in 2023 it was shaair)
the other 10th/11th/12th most used players were an assortment rotating run defenders/2nd linebackers/pass rushers. rashaad evans, jayon brown, bud dupree, and a 6th db. these are likely to be mcfadden, simmons, jordan phillips, ojulari, nacho, etc.
and not sure if it's been mentioned before but Bowen mentioned the importance of the 2 ILBs in his scheme.
I'll have to go back and watch, but I thought he said the inside linebacker and safety have to be the brains of the defense (nothing unusual there, usually why the ILB or S wears the green dot).
What we don't know is how much the second ILB will be on the field. From what I can tell, Vrabel/Bowen used a TON of nickel and dime, which suggests the second ILB comes off (or we may see more of the hybrid "money" backer such as Isaiah Simmons.
My gut still says the nickel corner (probably our 3rd rounder) will be playing more than the second ILB.
and not sure if it's been mentioned before but Bowen mentioned the importance of the 2 ILBs in his scheme.
I'll have to go back and watch, but I thought he said the inside linebacker and safety have to be the brains of the defense (nothing unusual there, usually why the ILB or S wears the green dot).
What we don't know is how much the second ILB will be on the field. From what I can tell, Vrabel/Bowen used a TON of nickel and dime, which suggests the second ILB comes off (or we may see more of the hybrid "money" backer such as Isaiah Simmons.
My gut still says the nickel corner (probably our 3rd rounder) will be playing more than the second ILB.
He said the inside backers.
remember the context - he was talking about what he looks in for his defense so the personnel dept could go find more players for him. he wasn't going to say "i only need 1 smart inside linebacker so we are set because we have okereke". i think he was describing generally the traits most important for any inside linebacker on the roster, not necessarily the importance of deploying 2 of them on the field at the same as a specifically key element of his defense. as eric pointed out his history does not suggest that he's done that.
It’s the an acronym which looms above and behind all the players in their nyg meeting room. Trail? Mission accomplished, because that is all they have done for ten years…trailing the league in all categories….it’s got to be improved…… how about: “K.S.A.” (Kick Some Ass).
That might be the dumbest thing I've seen in a while as a motivation tool/phrase.
remember the context - he was talking about what he looks in for his defense so the personnel dept could go find more players for him. he wasn't going to say "i only need 1 smart inside linebacker so we are set because we have okereke". i think he was describing generally the traits most important for any inside linebacker on the roster, not necessarily the importance of deploying 2 of them on the field at the same as a specifically key element of his defense. as eric pointed out his history does not suggest that he's done that.
Yes - thanks for posting the percentages. Super curious to see the packages we open camp with now that Bowen's seen everypne in OTAs.
After watching the episode is that the Front Office is undecided on whether Jones is the Franchise QB. Here are 4 quotes from Schoen about Jones in the episode, two positive and two negative:
(+) "He didn't have much of a chance this year... You could have Pat Mahomes and he can't f-ing win behind that (O-line)" (+) "I'm not giving up on him. He's under contract for 3 more years."
vs. (-) "3 Serious Injuries in 2 years. We need to protect ourselves because best predictor of the future is the past" (-) "Is he our guy for the next 10 years? Or do we need to pivot and find somebody else?"
IMO the waffling back and forth on Jones has been the biggest weakness of the Schoen era. The quotes from the show match up to the actions taken from this front office. Here's a quick recap since Schoen took over as GM:
2022 - Decline the 5th year option, we're moving on at QB. 2023 - Actually, we were wrong. Here's $160MM over the next 4 years. 2024 - Oh no, we were wrong again. Neck and ACL injuries are very concerning. He's gotta prove that he's worth the contract we gave him. 2025+ - Pray he's the Franchise QB, else we pivot.
Declining Jones' 5th year option was one of the 1st major decisions by Schoen. Here were the different options at the time:
(A) Decline option -> QB proves it in 2022 -> New contract
(B) Decline option -> QB doesn't prove it in 2022 -> Pivot to someone else
(C) Pick up the 2023 option (for ~$27M) to play out the 2022 & 2023 seasons -> Decide to cut bait or give out new contract
In hindsight (C) would have been the best choice, as he would have played 2023 on a 'prove-it' year rather than 2022. That would have given the front office more valuable information, such as the three serious injuries in two years. It would have allowed us to move on from Jones in 2024 with a clean financial slate. But instead he went with option (A) as Jones showed enough in 2022 to merit the $160MM 4 year contract. Schoen can't be blamed for drafting Jones, but he should take the blame for giving him the 2nd contract.
By his 2nd year as Buffalo's Assistant GM Schoen had already drafted Allen to be the Franchise QB. But now in year #3 of the NYG Schoen era we've given Top 10 money to a QB who probably isn't a franchise QB. We cannot realistically get out of his contract until 2025 at the earliest (and that will involve lots of dead cap), so this upcoming season is essentially 2022 all over again: a make or break 'prove-it' year for Jones.
i think the thing i agree with most w/r/t schoen is that he tends to be a little more reactive than proactive. barkley saga is another example of that. avoiding more drama this year was the only decision after indulging so much last year. had he been more proactive maybe he could have been the gm to get devin singletary for $2m last year, plus maybe some draft picks trading barkley 1 year younger off a good healthy season.
in such a year to year league i dont think reactive is the worst "negative" though.
No, stupid is the worst negative. Like giving Daniel Jones that
Declining Jones' 5th year option was one of the 1st major decisions by Schoen. Here were the different options at the time:
(A) Decline option -> QB proves it in 2022 -> New contract
(B) Decline option -> QB doesn't prove it in 2022 -> Pivot to someone else
(C) Pick up the 2023 option (for ~$27M) to play out the 2022 & 2023 seasons -> Decide to cut bait or give out new contract
In hindsight (C) would have been the best choice, as he would have played 2023 on a 'prove-it' year rather than 2022. That would have given the front office more valuable information, such as the three serious injuries in two years. It would have allowed us to move on from Jones in 2024 with a clean financial slate. But instead he went with option (A) as Jones showed enough in 2022 to merit the $160MM 4 year contract. Schoen can't be blamed for drafting Jones, but he should take the blame for giving him the 2nd contract.
Schoen owns that contract for sure. If you add in your view on how Schoen handled the 5th year option, Schoen has mismanaged the QB issue three straight years.
I tend to give Schoen a pass on not picking up the 5th year option - a reasonable case can be made to decline it - but the new contract and making the decision to roll with Jones into 2024 were bad conclusions, IMV. And it makes me question Schoen remaining as GM.
Brandon Beane always struck me as a GM who practices the philosophy "fortune favors the brave". He goes for it. I was hoping much of that rubbed off on Schoen.
but that is why we have been a disaster since Accorsi retired. Schoen has experience as does Brown. Whether they make the right moves is up in the air. If Daniel Jones flops their run is over. Having only one person of color in the room in todays NFL stuck out to me. How many of the other guys are nepo? Maybe this is the way in all NFL brain trusts. No former players in the room. Not one? Not one is qualified to offer advice? Why isn't Carl Banks in the room to give his perspective? We look rudderless in my opinion as Mara hovers over it all.
Brandon Beane always struck me as a GM who practices the philosophy "fortune favors the brave". He goes for it. I was hoping much of that rubbed off on Schoen.
He's going for it with Daniel Jones, Brian Burns, and Malik Nabers.
Tom in MA, your analysis is based on the premise that Schoen declining Jones option meant he wanted to move on at QB.
But that's false. Because Jones wasn't Schoen's pick, and it was weeks after Schoen's hiring, declining the option was the default decision for any new GM.
It seems clear to me that Schoen really wanted to move on from Saquon.
I believe he thought it was the best football decision but he really didnt want to go another offseason having to discuss it with Saquon again. Barkley was making it about “respect” and Schoen was making a business decision. He knew the money he would offer would just piss Saquon off.
It’s another reason why being a GM is a very difficult job, especially if you are not an asshole.
It seems clear to me that Schoen really wanted to move on from Saquon.
I believe he thought it was the best football decision but he really didnt want to go another offseason having to discuss it with Saquon again. Barkley was making it about “respect” and Schoen was making a business decision. He knew the money he would offer would just piss Saquon off.
It’s another reason why being a GM is a very difficult job, especially if you are not an asshole.
Totally agree. It wasn't just the money either. I think Schoen's like BBI -- ready to move on from all the crap that comes with "face of the franchise" and uninterested in rerunning the same offensive script. And some scarring from being worn out a year ago trying to make it work.
For those (like me) that don’t have HBO/Max and didn’t see the first episode of the Giants Hard Knocks series… I just found it on YouTube and linked it below.
but that is why we have been a disaster since Accorsi retired. Schoen has experience as does Brown. Whether they make the right moves is up in the air. If Daniel Jones flops their run is over. Having only one person of color in the room in today’s NFL stuck out to me. How many of the other guys are nepo? Maybe this is the way in all NFL brain trusts. No former players in the room. Not one? Not one is qualified to offer advice? Why isn't Carl Banks in the room to give his perspective? We look rudderless in my opinion as Mara hovers over it all.
Yet another rocket scientist playing the race card
It seems clear to me that Schoen really wanted to move on from Saquon.
I believe he thought it was the best football decision but he really didnt want to go another offseason having to discuss it with Saquon again. Barkley was making it about “respect” and Schoen was making a business decision. He knew the money he would offer would just piss Saquon off.
It’s another reason why being a GM is a very difficult job, especially if you are not an asshole.
Even more difficult when your boss can't see things the way they should.
Second - Schoen said - let's give Jones a competent OL and give him a fair chance to prove it - or Pivot. Pivot is clearly not saying he's the future of the franchise.
I'll have to go back and watch, but I thought he said the inside linebacker and safety have to be the brains of the defense (nothing unusual there, usually why the ILB or S wears the green dot).
What we don't know is how much the second ILB will be on the field. From what I can tell, Vrabel/Bowen used a TON of nickel and dime, which suggests the second ILB comes off (or we may see more of the hybrid "money" backer such as Isaiah Simmons.
My gut still says the nickel corner (probably our 3rd rounder) will be playing more than the second ILB.
Quote:
and not sure if it's been mentioned before but Bowen mentioned the importance of the 2 ILBs in his scheme.
I'll have to go back and watch, but I thought he said the inside linebacker and safety have to be the brains of the defense (nothing unusual there, usually why the ILB or S wears the green dot).
What we don't know is how much the second ILB will be on the field. From what I can tell, Vrabel/Bowen used a TON of nickel and dime, which suggests the second ILB comes off (or we may see more of the hybrid "money" backer such as Isaiah Simmons.
My gut still says the nickel corner (probably our 3rd rounder) will be playing more than the second ILB.
this is correct. here was his player usage in TEN on the defense that stayed the healthiest and had the most success (2021). i think this is what would be considered close to his "ideal" personnel based on everything we've heard.
s kevin byard 1050 snaps (96%)
de harold landry 981 snaps (89%)
dl jeffrey simmons 932 (85%)
cb jackrabbit jenkins 861 (78%)
cb kristian fulton 737 (67%)
dl denico autry 709 (64%)
s amani hooker 704 (64%)
lb david long 634 (57%)
cb elijah molden 632 (57%)
note that this is:
3 pass rushers (likely to be burns, thibs, lawrence)
5 defensive backs (competition tbd)
1 linebacker (this will be okereke, not sure who wore green dot for him in 2021 but in 2023 it was shaair)
the other 10th/11th/12th most used players were an assortment rotating run defenders/2nd linebackers/pass rushers. rashaad evans, jayon brown, bud dupree, and a 6th db. these are likely to be mcfadden, simmons, jordan phillips, ojulari, nacho, etc.
Quote:
and not sure if it's been mentioned before but Bowen mentioned the importance of the 2 ILBs in his scheme.
I'll have to go back and watch, but I thought he said the inside linebacker and safety have to be the brains of the defense (nothing unusual there, usually why the ILB or S wears the green dot).
What we don't know is how much the second ILB will be on the field. From what I can tell, Vrabel/Bowen used a TON of nickel and dime, which suggests the second ILB comes off (or we may see more of the hybrid "money" backer such as Isaiah Simmons.
My gut still says the nickel corner (probably our 3rd rounder) will be playing more than the second ILB.
He said the inside backers.
Quote:
In comment 16548614 bc4life said:
Quote:
and not sure if it's been mentioned before but Bowen mentioned the importance of the 2 ILBs in his scheme.
I'll have to go back and watch, but I thought he said the inside linebacker and safety have to be the brains of the defense (nothing unusual there, usually why the ILB or S wears the green dot).
What we don't know is how much the second ILB will be on the field. From what I can tell, Vrabel/Bowen used a TON of nickel and dime, which suggests the second ILB comes off (or we may see more of the hybrid "money" backer such as Isaiah Simmons.
My gut still says the nickel corner (probably our 3rd rounder) will be playing more than the second ILB.
He said the inside backers.
remember the context - he was talking about what he looks in for his defense so the personnel dept could go find more players for him. he wasn't going to say "i only need 1 smart inside linebacker so we are set because we have okereke". i think he was describing generally the traits most important for any inside linebacker on the roster, not necessarily the importance of deploying 2 of them on the field at the same as a specifically key element of his defense. as eric pointed out his history does not suggest that he's done that.
That might be the dumbest thing I've seen in a while as a motivation tool/phrase.
It was embarrassing...
<snip>
He said the inside backers.
remember the context - he was talking about what he looks in for his defense so the personnel dept could go find more players for him. he wasn't going to say "i only need 1 smart inside linebacker so we are set because we have okereke". i think he was describing generally the traits most important for any inside linebacker on the roster, not necessarily the importance of deploying 2 of them on the field at the same as a specifically key element of his defense. as eric pointed out his history does not suggest that he's done that.
Yes - thanks for posting the percentages. Super curious to see the packages we open camp with now that Bowen's seen everypne in OTAs.
(+) "He didn't have much of a chance this year... You could have Pat Mahomes and he can't f-ing win behind that (O-line)"
(+) "I'm not giving up on him. He's under contract for 3 more years."
vs.
(-) "3 Serious Injuries in 2 years. We need to protect ourselves because best predictor of the future is the past"
(-) "Is he our guy for the next 10 years? Or do we need to pivot and find somebody else?"
IMO the waffling back and forth on Jones has been the biggest weakness of the Schoen era. The quotes from the show match up to the actions taken from this front office. Here's a quick recap since Schoen took over as GM:
2022 - Decline the 5th year option, we're moving on at QB.
2023 - Actually, we were wrong. Here's $160MM over the next 4 years.
2024 - Oh no, we were wrong again. Neck and ACL injuries are very concerning. He's gotta prove that he's worth the contract we gave him.
2025+ - Pray he's the Franchise QB, else we pivot.
Declining Jones' 5th year option was one of the 1st major decisions by Schoen. Here were the different options at the time:
(A) Decline option -> QB proves it in 2022 -> New contract
(B) Decline option -> QB doesn't prove it in 2022 -> Pivot to someone else
(C) Pick up the 2023 option (for ~$27M) to play out the 2022 & 2023 seasons -> Decide to cut bait or give out new contract
In hindsight (C) would have been the best choice, as he would have played 2023 on a 'prove-it' year rather than 2022. That would have given the front office more valuable information, such as the three serious injuries in two years. It would have allowed us to move on from Jones in 2024 with a clean financial slate. But instead he went with option (A) as Jones showed enough in 2022 to merit the $160MM 4 year contract. Schoen can't be blamed for drafting Jones, but he should take the blame for giving him the 2nd contract.
By his 2nd year as Buffalo's Assistant GM Schoen had already drafted Allen to be the Franchise QB. But now in year #3 of the NYG Schoen era we've given Top 10 money to a QB who probably isn't a franchise QB. We cannot realistically get out of his contract until 2025 at the earliest (and that will involve lots of dead cap), so this upcoming season is essentially 2022 all over again: a make or break 'prove-it' year for Jones.
in such a year to year league i dont think reactive is the worst "negative" though.
Reactive isn’t helpful either as it keeps you with just enough wins to not control your own destiny in the draft.
Declining Jones' 5th year option was one of the 1st major decisions by Schoen. Here were the different options at the time:
(A) Decline option -> QB proves it in 2022 -> New contract
(B) Decline option -> QB doesn't prove it in 2022 -> Pivot to someone else
(C) Pick up the 2023 option (for ~$27M) to play out the 2022 & 2023 seasons -> Decide to cut bait or give out new contract
In hindsight (C) would have been the best choice, as he would have played 2023 on a 'prove-it' year rather than 2022. That would have given the front office more valuable information, such as the three serious injuries in two years. It would have allowed us to move on from Jones in 2024 with a clean financial slate. But instead he went with option (A) as Jones showed enough in 2022 to merit the $160MM 4 year contract. Schoen can't be blamed for drafting Jones, but he should take the blame for giving him the 2nd contract.
Schoen owns that contract for sure. If you add in your view on how Schoen handled the 5th year option, Schoen has mismanaged the QB issue three straight years.
I tend to give Schoen a pass on not picking up the 5th year option - a reasonable case can be made to decline it - but the new contract and making the decision to roll with Jones into 2024 were bad conclusions, IMV. And it makes me question Schoen remaining as GM.
Brandon Beane always struck me as a GM who practices the philosophy "fortune favors the brave". He goes for it. I was hoping much of that rubbed off on Schoen.
Brandon Beane always struck me as a GM who practices the philosophy "fortune favors the brave". He goes for it. I was hoping much of that rubbed off on Schoen.
But that's false. Because Jones wasn't Schoen's pick, and it was weeks after Schoen's hiring, declining the option was the default decision for any new GM.
It seems clear to me that Schoen really wanted to move on from Saquon.
I believe he thought it was the best football decision but he really didnt want to go another offseason having to discuss it with Saquon again. Barkley was making it about “respect” and Schoen was making a business decision. He knew the money he would offer would just piss Saquon off.
It’s another reason why being a GM is a very difficult job, especially if you are not an asshole.
It seems clear to me that Schoen really wanted to move on from Saquon.
I believe he thought it was the best football decision but he really didnt want to go another offseason having to discuss it with Saquon again. Barkley was making it about “respect” and Schoen was making a business decision. He knew the money he would offer would just piss Saquon off.
It’s another reason why being a GM is a very difficult job, especially if you are not an asshole.
Totally agree. It wasn't just the money either. I think Schoen's like BBI -- ready to move on from all the crap that comes with "face of the franchise" and uninterested in rerunning the same offensive script. And some scarring from being worn out a year ago trying to make it work.
Hard Knocks - ( New Window )
Yet another rocket scientist playing the race card
SMH
It seems clear to me that Schoen really wanted to move on from Saquon.
I believe he thought it was the best football decision but he really didnt want to go another offseason having to discuss it with Saquon again. Barkley was making it about “respect” and Schoen was making a business decision. He knew the money he would offer would just piss Saquon off.
It’s another reason why being a GM is a very difficult job, especially if you are not an asshole.
Even more difficult when your boss can't see things the way they should.