For all the talk about how bad NYG is expected to be, I don't believe that's the expectation. There are a few factors:
1. It's the 100th season of the franchise.
2. Schoen repeatedly referenced Jones making $40M and he invested significantly in the OL via free agency.
3. Schoen made a big investment in Burns.
4. Barkley is now playing on a division rival.
It's clear both Mara & McDonnell had a preference to keep Barkley. It was telling that McDonnell asked Schoen what the offensive identity was going to be without Barkley, Schoen quickly responded by saying we aren't paying the QB $40M to hand it off to a $12M RB.
The potential big problem for Schoen is if the offense is a disaster here while Barkley is tearing it up in Philly. I like Schoen and I think he's impressive, but this is a scenario that is concerning especially given ownerships stance on Barkley.
The Barkley fiasco could not been managed worse. First, they should franchise tagged DJ in 2023 and signed Barkley to a two year contract that simply monetized two franchise tags. Instead, Schoen made arguably the dumbest decision in Giants history with the DJ contract. And that is not hindsight - it was self-evident at the time. Then, once it was clear that Schoen wasn't keeping him, he had to trade him at the trade deadline in 2023. I am convinced Schoen could have gotten a day two draft pick and controlled Barkley's destination, maybe Baltimore or Buffalo, which might have ensured that Barkley stay in the AFC. Instead Barkley winds up at our most hated rival. Absolute stupidity from beginning to end by Schoen.
That is a big risk, especially after watching how this team pass protected and how Jones played last year.
But I also feel like Schoen is saying “you wanted me to pay this guy, now he’s going to have to be the one who wins us games”
This is absolutely correct. They made the decision to pay Jones and not Barkley. They invested a top-10 pick in a WR after investing 2nd and 3rd round picks on WRs in the two prior drafts. They have top-10 picks at both tackle positions and invested heavily in the Oline to shore up the pass protection.
This offense is being designed to be able to pass the ball. They are putting more on Jones this year than they have in the past and they have supplied him with the weapons to get it done. It is on him to finally answer the bell as an NFL QB.
OK JS I guess you're good with tieing your fate to his. Good luck.
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especially in a big market is a results business. No one cares if "It's clear to see he has the chops" if you don't win, chops or not, Schoen will not be here a long time. Neither will Daboll.
Naturally. I figured that went without saying.
Got it. So, your post is one big platitude. Thanks for sharing.
That is a big risk, especially after watching how this team pass protected and how Jones played last year.
But I also feel like Schoen is saying “you wanted me to pay this guy, now he’s going to have to be the one who wins us games”
That's the sense I get.
Schoen hired Daboll, and Schoen and Mara didn't seem pleased with Daboll's wild man antics at times. And my guess if Schoen feels like he has brought in much better infantry for Jones to succeed, Daboll and his staff need to deliver...
Personally, I think Schoen is the bigger problem right now. But I tend to think he's much safer than anyone else...
There a lot of ways this season can play out and Schoen/Daboll, both or neither stick or get fired regardless of wins and losses.
For example, I can see a scenario in which the team as a whole greatly improves defensively, offensively with improving OL play, but QB play (or lack there of ie another Jones injury and Lock is who he has been historically) holds them back and they win 4 or 5 games, but everyone keeps their job because the team is competitive and improve in other areas.
I agree. I believe Schoen works for Mara, and Daboll works for Schoen.
Like the previous GMs, I believe Schoen will have the opportunity to hire a new coach if his first hire doesn't work out.
Given the groceries, I've been pretty impressed with Daboll's meals. But now the cupboard has been turned over, and these are their ingredients.
They had a golden opportunity to get a mulligan on Jones and they didn't. So it's pretty clear to me they all think he can do it.
"We aren't paying the QB $40M to hand it off to a $12M RB."
He said:
"You aren't paying the QB $40M to hand it off to a $12M RB."
Schoen isn't paying him 40 million. Tim McDonnell is and Tim McDonnell is paying Schoen too and "reporting" to him on the org chart. Seems like a recipe for success no?
Eh not so sure on media and fanbase. Things will get bad in a hurry if they come out of the gate 0-2
Right? I mean the big moral victory from 2023 is Daboll didn't lose the locker room.
Acceptable outcomes for this team appear anything north of a Joe Judge meltdown on the field and on the mic.
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Ownership, the media, and the fanbase all seem relatively content with mediocrity.
Right? I mean the big moral victory from 2023 is Daboll didn't lose the locker room.
Acceptable outcomes for this team appear anything north of a Joe Judge meltdown on the field and on the mic.
Facts
Barkley might do great in Philly. He also might just as easily miss as many games per season as he did in NY.
Nothing against Barkley at all, but I'm in the camp of . . . it was time to move on, time to invest that money elsewhere, the offense MAY look more balanced without him, and of the list of the possible problems the 2024 Giants face, losing Barkley is LOW on that list.
It's not like Barkley translated to many wins in NY. He probably translates to more wins in Philly because he's set up for success there, with a great OL and WR threats so he won't be the ONLY focal point of opposing defenses.
But I don't know why anyone's betting on him staying healthy. The Eagles will be lucky to get 10 games from him.
But the pressure on this Giants regime is to show improvement, which is partially winning but also having a more potent offense and defense; establishing new "faces of the franchise"; and building fan enthusiasm and excitement.
Were last year's Giants exciting? No. Were the 2022 Giants exciting? Often.
Did last year's Giants have a potent offense? No. Did the 2022 Giants? "Potent" would be a stretch on either side of the ball.
If the Giants show improvement and look like a young team on the rise, Schoen's job is safe. If they look the same or worse, somebody's going to be on the hot seat. I think Daboll is in more danger than Schoen unless the new acquisitions are busts.
Odd comment. The New York sports teams have not won a championship since Giants SB in 2011.
Welcome to NY sports teams.
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In comment 16547707 pjcas18 said:
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especially in a big market is a results business. No one cares if "It's clear to see he has the chops" if you don't win, chops or not, Schoen will not be here a long time. Neither will Daboll.
Naturally. I figured that went without saying.
Got it. So, your post is one big platitude. Thanks for sharing.
Fuck off
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especially in a big market is a results business. No one cares if "It's clear to see he has the chops" if you don't win, chops or not, Schoen will not be here a long time. Neither will Daboll.
Odd comment. The New York sports teams have not won a championship since Giants SB in 2011.
In fairness, there also hasn't been a ton of job security since then for anyone who doesn't have Mara DNA, either. You could argue that there were some folks (like Gettleman in particular) who were in their roles too long despite the frequent turnover, but still.
I have to say he's damn impressive. He's only 44, too.
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especially in a big market is a results business. No one cares if "It's clear to see he has the chops" if you don't win, chops or not, Schoen will not be here a long time. Neither will Daboll.
Odd comment. The New York sports teams have not won a championship since Giants SB in 2011.
Exactly, that's why this is the Giants 3rd GM since 2011 and 6th head coach.
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In comment 16547707 pjcas18 said:
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especially in a big market is a results business. No one cares if "It's clear to see he has the chops" if you don't win, chops or not, Schoen will not be here a long time. Neither will Daboll.
Odd comment. The New York sports teams have not won a championship since Giants SB in 2011.
In fairness, there also hasn't been a ton of job security since then for anyone who doesn't have Mara DNA, either. You could argue that there were some folks (like Gettleman in particular) who were in their roles too long despite the frequent turnover, but still.
This is my point. Plenty have people have gotten fired in this organization. Within the last decade:
Coughlin*
McAdoo
Reese
Shurmur
Judge
Gettleman*
* if you want to say they "retired".
I think Schoen is highly overrated around here, and largely because he looks and sounds better than his hideous predecessor. And I see many more places to criticize his performance than Daboll.
But Schoen hired Daboll, and Mara hired Schoen. So, IMV, that gives Schoen more margin for error. If the team struggles again under Daboll, Schoen can put the blame on Daboll and find another a new HC.
But I haven't been wowed over his time here. He has a lot to prove.
0-17, guaranteed - NOBODY would have survived, not Schoen, Daboll, Wink, Kafka, nobody.
This year they need to win 8 games, else Daboll gets whacked; Schoen has till 2025 to make the play-offs.
But I haven't been wowed over his time here. He has a lot to prove.
I've written scores of times. The 2022 playoff team was largely made up of Gettleman's players. And Daboll/Kafka were maestros managing/optimizing what they had...
Yes, the '23 Giants go 0-17 without Saquon...like, Wow.
Maybe because this was his 3rd draft. Dexter took 3 years and a position change to become who he is. Thomas took 3 years to shut up the naysayers.
Year one, schoen was handcuffed by the salary cap issues. He couldn't go out and spend on top free agents. Rome wasn't built In a day and this team isn't going to be built in a day.
Schoen has drafted players where we can see the potential. KT has flashed at times. Wandale Robinson has shown he has ability to make plays. Ezeudu has contributed. Banks has played well and he is the #1 cornerback this year. JMS is still learning and Hyatt has tremendous talent on making big plays.
Nabers looks to be real special, Nubin looks like he has a lot of potential. Philips, Johnson and Tracy all look like they will be contributors this year.
Honestly? Not suck. Also I admit I agree with most all of his moves including letting SB walk for double digit AAV.
Even if SB runs for 10,000 Eagle yards, I agree with the decision and also with the execution.
I think he's done well implementing a strong roster philosophy. The Giants were a clown show at times, and anachronistic regardless.
Schoen is professional and appropriately leading edge. He's building a team. Fans are impatient and uninformed at various levels. Owners who behave like impatient fans (eg Danny Boy) kill franchises. The Mara's are at least as frustrated as me. I think they've exercised appropriate patience with in hindsight very poor regime decisions. I'd like to think I'd made better, but once made what's done is done. At the right time you toss the baby and maybe some bathwater.
But then you need a new baby, which takes time. No matter how much you wish or money you throw, you can't pay 9 women to make a new baby in a month.
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For those in the 'Schoen will be here for awhile' crowd...may I ask...why? What has Joe done that's been THAT impressive? This is his 3rd year & I think most would say we're bottom ten in terms of talent. Yeah, he's not Gettleman so I guess he is propped up compared to his predecessor, but still...Joe has to start putting pelts on the wall.
Maybe because this was his 3rd draft. Dexter took 3 years and a position change to become who he is. Thomas took 3 years to shut up the naysayers.
Year one, schoen was handcuffed by the salary cap issues. He couldn't go out and spend on top free agents. Rome wasn't built In a day and this team isn't going to be built in a day.
Schoen has drafted players where we can see the potential. KT has flashed at times. Wandale Robinson has shown he has ability to make plays. Ezeudu has contributed. Banks has played well and he is the #1 cornerback this year. JMS is still learning and Hyatt has tremendous talent on making big plays.
Nabers looks to be real special, Nubin looks like he has a lot of potential. Philips, Johnson and Tracy all look like they will be contributors this year.
TrueBlue56, are you serious? Both Dexter & AT were Gettleman picks.
KT, Wan'Dale, & Banks look like they're keepers. Ezeuda? I haven't been impressed. JMS wasn't great, though he was a rookie & playing next to shit. Hyatt...yeah, he flashed in camp & had some moments in the regular season, but I'm not penciling him in as a stud.
As for your third paragraph, all of them are rookies! Yeah, they might be good, but who the fuck knows? That includes Nabers, who I'm high on. We'll see for real when the regular season starts.
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In comment 16548035 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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For those in the 'Schoen will be here for awhile' crowd...may I ask...why? What has Joe done that's been THAT impressive? This is his 3rd year & I think most would say we're bottom ten in terms of talent. Yeah, he's not Gettleman so I guess he is propped up compared to his predecessor, but still...Joe has to start putting pelts on the wall.
Maybe because this was his 3rd draft. Dexter took 3 years and a position change to become who he is. Thomas took 3 years to shut up the naysayers.
Year one, schoen was handcuffed by the salary cap issues. He couldn't go out and spend on top free agents. Rome wasn't built In a day and this team isn't going to be built in a day.
Schoen has drafted players where we can see the potential. KT has flashed at times. Wandale Robinson has shown he has ability to make plays. Ezeudu has contributed. Banks has played well and he is the #1 cornerback this year. JMS is still learning and Hyatt has tremendous talent on making big plays.
Nabers looks to be real special, Nubin looks like he has a lot of potential. Philips, Johnson and Tracy all look like they will be contributors this year.
TrueBlue56, are you serious? Both Dexter & AT were Gettleman picks.
Of course I am serious, my point wasn't that they are gettlemans picks. My point was that it took them 3 years to become who they became. This is year 3 for Schoen's first draft class.
I believe Joe schoen has drafted some really talented players that can achieve Thomas and Dexter type levels at their respective positions. Some other players might be a notch or 2 below that level. It remains to be seen.
Schoen has drafted players where we can see the potential. KT has flashed at times. Wandale Robinson has shown he has ability to make plays. Ezeudu has contributed. Banks has played well and he is the #1 cornerback this year. JMS is still learning and Hyatt has tremendous talent on making big plays.
Nabers looks to be real special, Nubin looks like he has a lot of potential. Philips, Johnson and Tracy all look like they will be contributors this year.
You are grading on a very favorable curve...
The only player who Schoen has acquired - draft or free agency - that has been stellar so far is Okereke.
Everyone else has basically been okay or horrible. Some TBD.
We'll never know if / how the Mara clan's collective thumb was on the scales in giving Jones the 4 yr, $160M contract, but personally I think Schoen was "strongly encouraged / pressured" to sign Jones and tag Barkley after the 2022 season.
I think Schoen had more of an ability to push back after being on the job for 2 years after the 2023 season and Philly's offer to Barkley was just too rich to match. I think Mara / McDonnell reluctantly agreed to not match the Philly contract (if an opportunity to match was real).
I can't see Schoen (and even Daboll) getting canned without ever getting a chance to "draft their QB". Barring some disastrous season, both will be back in 2025.
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Schoen has drafted players where we can see the potential. KT has flashed at times. Wandale Robinson has shown he has ability to make plays. Ezeudu has contributed. Banks has played well and he is the #1 cornerback this year. JMS is still learning and Hyatt has tremendous talent on making big plays.
Nabers looks to be real special, Nubin looks like he has a lot of potential. Philips, Johnson and Tracy all look like they will be contributors this year.
You are grading on a very favorable curve...
The only player who Schoen has acquired - draft or free agency - that has been stellar so far is Okereke.
Everyone else has basically been okay or horrible. Some TBD.
Who on my list has been horrible? The point of my post was to say that there is potential for a lot of players drafted by Schoen to become solid to great players.
What were we saying about Thomas after year 2? What were we saying about Dexter after year 2? Joe schoens first draft class just finished their 2nd season.
But as Frank Sinatra rhetorically asked asked - "Who else can I be ?"
The point is last year's team was basically a two man effort - Dex and Saquon. This year's team has better players and coaches, on both sides of the ball.
In the division other than Philly (who inexplicably imploded). I think the Giants are good enough to take two from Washington and split with Dallas.
"We aren't paying the QB $40M to hand it off to a $12M RB."
He said:
"You aren't paying the QB $40M to hand it off to a $12M RB."
Schoen isn't paying him 40 million. Tim McDonnell is and Tim McDonnell is paying Schoen too and "reporting" to him on the org chart. Seems like a recipe for success no?
If Schoen cares about his career then he had better rely on his football prowess and evaluation skills and less as to what an org chart might imply. Keeping ownership happy in the short term is nothing special, but consistent winning ensures Schoen’s job stability as GM for the longer term.
I understand that; be the same with me if I disagreed with the DJ contract.
I've explained before, I believe the real decision there was declining Jones option. He called Jone's hand; when Jones produced winning cards in '22, the economic die was largely cast. I agreed with that, and I understand that optionality as Schoen bought always has a cost.
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Daboll has stats from the new DC….on his phone, showing JS these stats after coming off a disastrous 6 win season….being dressed down by Wink….one more 6 win season, and there will be different headlines on Daboll’s phone.
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When I think of Schoen, I think of the one decision he made over all: giving Jones that contract. As of 7/2/24, it looks like a fiasco. Perhaps Jones lights it up this fall-I hope he does!-but it does color everything about him to me, fair or not.
I understand that; be the same with me if I disagreed with the DJ contract.
I've explained before, I believe the real decision there was declining Jones option. He called Jone's hand; when Jones produced winning cards in '22, the economic die was largely cast. I agreed with that, and I understand that optionality as Schoen bought always has a cost.
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In comment 16548064 TrueBlue56 said:
Who on my list has been horrible? The point of my post was to say that there is potential for a lot of players drafted by Schoen to become solid to great players.
What were we saying about Thomas after year 2? What were we saying about Dexter after year 2? Joe schoens first draft class just finished their 2nd season.
EZ and JMS were horrible. The other posters are suggesting to you is that similar to your namesake - you have extreme bias. For example, the comment you make about Wandale is that he "he has made plays," - do you know how laugahble that comment is? How many 2nd rd picks don't make a single play? Yet this is the type of thing you highlight.
You make the comment about JS "being handcuffed" but yet as a trueblue fan you comepletely gloss over the players he did get in FA usally have sucked outside the ILB.
To ignore that players that have sucked so far in which all should be subject to "3 years" is nothing more that extreme cherry-picking. You mean it MUST BE 3 years for every player? Yet you want to ignore Dexter's 1st two years or impying he was no good?
You have to understand that some of us that feel that we are also "trueblue" but feel that your type of "trueblue fandom" is more "close your eyes and cover your ears" pov. The info above that I've mentioned sort of highlights that.
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In comment 16548073 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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When I think of Schoen, I think of the one decision he made over all: giving Jones that contract. As of 7/2/24, it looks like a fiasco. Perhaps Jones lights it up this fall-I hope he does!-but it does color everything about him to me, fair or not.
I understand that; be the same with me if I disagreed with the DJ contract.
I've explained before, I believe the real decision there was declining Jones option. He called Jone's hand; when Jones produced winning cards in '22, the economic die was largely cast. I agreed with that, and I understand that optionality as Schoen bought always has a cost.
he called Jones hand. Yeah ok. He should have said thanks for the memories and cut him loose. Instead, he handed jones a 160 Million contract that he wouldn’t have got anywhere else. If Jones shits the bed, Schoen can follow him out the fucking door.
If Jones shits the bed, he (Jones) will be out the door a year later than he otherwise would have been, and the team around the QB will -- assuming the rest of his plan plays out -- be championship calibre (and young). If it's not, Schoen should be out the door.
If it is, than Schoen has done his job masterfully and he'll just need to find a QB for 2025 on, unless he already did.