Schoen also spoke about the depth of the free-agent running back class. He said he thought there would be value signings available in the second week of free agency. Schoen apparently didn’t have the stomach to test that theory, as he signed Devin Singletary to a three-year, $16.5 million contract hours after Barkley signed a three-year, $37.8 million deal with the Eagles on the first day of free agency.
Schoen quickly reacted and pivoted from his strategy once Barkley was gone, a good sign to not be passive.
Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
Some leftover thoughts on Hard Knocks:
• Odd amount of time discussing a possible Saquon tag-and-trade, especially after Schoen dismissed it as unrealistic.
• Schoen clearly was wary of getting entangled in more contract drama with Saquon. He said last year's negotiations took 10 years off his life.
• Schoen's actions at RB didn't back up his words. He spoke about how data shows 27-year-old RBs fall off a cliff and then signed a RB who turns 27 before the season. He also mentioned the value signings he expected to be available in the second week of FA and then the only RB he signed was Singletary hours after FA opened. Seems like the RB market developed quicker than he expected.
• Schoen referenced CB, pass rushers and No. 1 WR as big needs early in the offseason. Makes the lack of activity at CB even more surprising.
• The Senior Bowl "trade negotiations" between Schoen and Dan Morgan seemed much more like friends busting balls. I don't think Morgan really thought he was getting two 1's.
• Daboll was hardly in the episode, which likely made him happy. Was funny when he pulled Schoen into his office to tell him he was offering the DC job to "Shane" and Schoen confirmed "Shane Bowen?" Then Daboll just read Schoen a bunch of basic Titans stats from the past three seasons. Would think they would have been well aware of those at the time they offered him the job.
• Interesting that Schoen was still referencing Waller as part of the plans to Mara in mid-February.
• Director of pro scouting Chris Rossetti is probably not a super familiar name to fans. But he clearly has a big voice in free agency discussions. He seemed to have the best handle on Saquon's market.
• We don't need to spend much time on Jones' rehab.
but this is dumb point... virtually all unrestricted free agents are around this age...
• Schoen's actions at RB didn't back up his words. He spoke about how data shows 27-year-old RBs fall off a cliff and then signed a RB who turns 27 before the season. He also mentioned the value signings he expected to be available in the second week of FA and then the only RB he signed was Singletary hours after FA opened. Seems like the RB market developed quicker than he expected.
The comments from Mara and McDonnell show that there were influential skeptics of letting Barkley walk. The fact that the Giants ultimately did so supports Mara’s claim that he doesn’t strong-arm personnel decisions.
this seemed odd to me too.... was this natural or rehearsed?
• Daboll was hardly in the episode, which likely made him happy. Was funny when he pulled Schoen into his office to tell him he was offering the DC job to "Shane" and Schoen confirmed "Shane Bowen?" Then Daboll just read Schoen a bunch of basic Titans stats from the past three seasons. Would think they would have been well aware of those at the time they offered him the job.
but this is dumb point... virtually all unrestricted free agents are around this age...
• Schoen's actions at RB didn't back up his words. He spoke about how data shows 27-year-old RBs fall off a cliff and then signed a RB who turns 27 before the season. He also mentioned the value signings he expected to be available in the second week of FA and then the only RB he signed was Singletary hours after FA opened. Seems like the RB market developed quicker than he expected.
And also a big difference in the contracts. That was Shoen's point.
but this is dumb point... virtually all unrestricted free agents are around this age...
• Schoen's actions at RB didn't back up his words. He spoke about how data shows 27-year-old RBs fall off a cliff and then signed a RB who turns 27 before the season. He also mentioned the value signings he expected to be available in the second week of FA and then the only RB he signed was Singletary hours after FA opened. Seems like the RB market developed quicker than he expected.
Schoen also mentioned that Barkley had 900+ carries at Penn State, clearly tire tread, not age was the factor. It's good to see that Schoen stood his ground on Barkley against Mara and McDonnel, that SHOULD quiet the Mara Tech stuff. It won't, but it SHOULD.
There were a couple of moments I hope were made for camera moments, including the Bowen stats.
When Abrams says it's unlikely a team trades a pick and pays Barkley 12M in 2024, that was cringey. Obviously a team who trades for him would be looking to extend him and have the ability to negotiate a contract at their desired terms.
but this is dumb point... virtually all unrestricted free agents are around this age...
• Schoen's actions at RB didn't back up his words. He spoke about how data shows 27-year-old RBs fall off a cliff and then signed a RB who turns 27 before the season. He also mentioned the value signings he expected to be available in the second week of FA and then the only RB he signed was Singletary hours after FA opened. Seems like the RB market developed quicker than he expected.
Schoen also mentioned that Barkley had 900+ carries at Penn State, clearly tire tread, not age was the factor. It's good to see that Schoen stood his ground on Barkley against Mara and McDonnel, that SHOULD quiet the Mara Tech stuff. It won't, but it SHOULD.
When the narrator was talking up just how good Barkley is, I turned to my wife and said, "this stuff on Barkley has become a myth... he just hasn't been that good outside of two seasons. He's got a lot of tread on his tires."
Then when Schoen said what you pointed out, I said, "see!"
but this is dumb point... virtually all unrestricted free agents are around this age...
• Schoen's actions at RB didn't back up his words. He spoke about how data shows 27-year-old RBs fall off a cliff and then signed a RB who turns 27 before the season. He also mentioned the value signings he expected to be available in the second week of FA and then the only RB he signed was Singletary hours after FA opened. Seems like the RB market developed quicker than he expected.
Schoen also mentioned that Barkley had 900+ carries at Penn State, clearly tire tread, not age was the factor. It's good to see that Schoen stood his ground on Barkley against Mara and McDonnel, that SHOULD quiet the Mara Tech stuff. It won't, but it SHOULD.
Singletary also has 888 career carries vs. 1,201 for Barkley, plus Barkley has one additional year in the NFL than Singletary - but he has played in four fewer games than Singletary (74 vs 78). And Singletary's Y/A is 4.6 vs. 4.3 for Barkley.
And then there's the injury history. Barkley has only had two seasons of 16 games. Singletary has played in 16 or more games every year since his rookie season (when he had 12 games).
And Schoen can't control how quickly the market develops. Bad take by Duggan here.
ironically singletary had more carries in college than saquon did
the "27 years old" thing is arbitrary, overall i believe saquon is about +400 carries over his career compared to singletary, plus the knee injury. everyone ages differently but i agree with duggan that there was clear misalignment between schoen's portrayal of the RB market and what ended up happening when the market developed. I think he was hoping that he'd be able to get Devin Singletary at $2-4m like last year. That's what Zack Moss and Ekeler ended up getting, but clearly they ended up preferring Singletary. probably because he has been the most durable.
it seemed like schoen didnt think anyone was paying what PHI did - which he disputed when Rossetti suggested exactly that and then happened. now we hope howie roseman got it wrong and schoen got it right.
Eric on Li -- I think we discussed this before, but it came up for me again recently and I thought of Barkley, chronic ankle instability. I think this is another possible "wear" on his belt.
RE: ironically singletary had more carries in college than saquon did
the "27 years old" thing is arbitrary, overall i believe saquon is about +400 carries over his career compared to singletary, plus the knee injury. everyone ages differently but i agree with duggan that there was clear misalignment between schoen's portrayal of the RB market and what ended up happening when the market developed. I think he was hoping that he'd be able to get Devin Singletary at $2-4m like last year. That's what Zack Moss and Ekeler ended up getting, but clearly they ended up preferring Singletary. probably because he has been the most durable.
it seemed like schoen didnt think anyone was paying what PHI did - which he disputed when Rossetti suggested exactly that and then happened. now we hope howie roseman got it wrong and schoen got it right.
I think the $12 mill/per AAV is about right. It is what was offered in 2022 by Schoen. While I generally agree Barkley gets injured too much, when healthy he is an upper echelon RB.
RE: this seemed odd to me too.... was this natural or rehearsed?
• Daboll was hardly in the episode, which likely made him happy. Was funny when he pulled Schoen into his office to tell him he was offering the DC job to "Shane" and Schoen confirmed "Shane Bowen?" Then Daboll just read Schoen a bunch of basic Titans stats from the past three seasons. Would think they would have been well aware of those at the time they offered him the job.
I think it was staged as well and the reason is Daboll's weight loss.
The video of him with Schoen discussing Bowen, Daboll looks like he does now- his maximum weight loss.
In February when they hired Bowen- Daboll while losing weight, was not that thin yet.
RE: RE: ironically singletary had more carries in college than saquon did
the "27 years old" thing is arbitrary, overall i believe saquon is about +400 carries over his career compared to singletary, plus the knee injury. everyone ages differently but i agree with duggan that there was clear misalignment between schoen's portrayal of the RB market and what ended up happening when the market developed. I think he was hoping that he'd be able to get Devin Singletary at $2-4m like last year. That's what Zack Moss and Ekeler ended up getting, but clearly they ended up preferring Singletary. probably because he has been the most durable.
it seemed like schoen didnt think anyone was paying what PHI did - which he disputed when Rossetti suggested exactly that and then happened. now we hope howie roseman got it wrong and schoen got it right.
I think the $12 mill/per AAV is about right. It is what was offered in 2022 by Schoen. While I generally agree Barkley gets injured too much, when healthy he is an upper echelon RB.
barkley got 12.5m AAV and more guaranteed than the NYG offered last year, plus the extra $10m they paid him on the tag. Schoen asked the rhetorical question "who is going to pay him 12m+?" and rossetti correctly pegged it as a team like PHI who thinks they can get those upper echelon qualities out of him.
that doesnt mean schoen made the wrong decision, just that he was lower on barkley than the market (and in this case specifically roseman).
RE: this seemed odd to me too.... was this natural or rehearsed?
• Daboll was hardly in the episode, which likely made him happy. Was funny when he pulled Schoen into his office to tell him he was offering the DC job to "Shane" and Schoen confirmed "Shane Bowen?" Then Daboll just read Schoen a bunch of basic Titans stats from the past three seasons. Would think they would have been well aware of those at the time they offered him the job.
I sorta read it as Daboll being the point person in terms of hiring his assistants and coordinators, and Schoen rubber stamping it.
Schoen was obviously there when Bowen interviewed, but I sense that he sorta stayed in his lane. You can tell from Schoen's phone conversation with Bowen that the call informing him that he had the job came from somebody else in the building - obviously Daboll, IMO.
but this is dumb point... virtually all unrestricted free agents are around this age...
• Schoen's actions at RB didn't back up his words. He spoke about how data shows 27-year-old RBs fall off a cliff and then signed a RB who turns 27 before the season. He also mentioned the value signings he expected to be available in the second week of FA and then the only RB he signed was Singletary hours after FA opened. Seems like the RB market developed quicker than he expected.
Agree, silly point.
RE: RE: this seemed odd to me too.... was this natural or rehearsed?
• Daboll was hardly in the episode, which likely made him happy. Was funny when he pulled Schoen into his office to tell him he was offering the DC job to "Shane" and Schoen confirmed "Shane Bowen?" Then Daboll just read Schoen a bunch of basic Titans stats from the past three seasons. Would think they would have been well aware of those at the time they offered him the job.
I think it was staged as well and the reason is Daboll's weight loss.
The video of him with Schoen discussing Bowen, Daboll looks like he does now- his maximum weight loss.
In February when they hired Bowen- Daboll while losing weight, was not that thin yet.
That is an interesting observation - I wonder if there will be any further obvious tells like that.
RE: this seemed odd to me too.... was this natural or rehearsed?
• Daboll was hardly in the episode, which likely made him happy. Was funny when he pulled Schoen into his office to tell him he was offering the DC job to "Shane" and Schoen confirmed "Shane Bowen?" Then Daboll just read Schoen a bunch of basic Titans stats from the past three seasons. Would think they would have been well aware of those at the time they offered him the job.
Definitely rehearsed. No way does Daboll have to read the data to Schoen. By that point they had been through interviews with several candidates etc. that was not an organic interaction. No way.
but this is dumb point... virtually all unrestricted free agents are around this age...
• Schoen's actions at RB didn't back up his words. He spoke about how data shows 27-year-old RBs fall off a cliff and then signed a RB who turns 27 before the season. He also mentioned the value signings he expected to be available in the second week of FA and then the only RB he signed was Singletary hours after FA opened. Seems like the RB market developed quicker than he expected.
Schoen also mentioned that Barkley had 900+ carries at Penn State, clearly tire tread, not age was the factor. It's good to see that Schoen stood his ground on Barkley against Mara and McDonnel, that SHOULD quiet the Mara Tech stuff. It won't, but it SHOULD.
Singletary also has 888 career carries vs. 1,201 for Barkley, plus Barkley has one additional year in the NFL than Singletary - but he has played in four fewer games than Singletary (74 vs 78). And Singletary's Y/A is 4.6 vs. 4.3 for Barkley.
And then there's the injury history. Barkley has only had two seasons of 16 games. Singletary has played in 16 or more games every year since his rookie season (when he had 12 games).
And Schoen can't control how quickly the market develops. Bad take by Duggan here.
Singletary is nowhere near Barkley in terms of class of player. Several orders of magnitude lower.
Singletary's career ypc Mark is colored by the very talented QBs and offenses he's played with, and Barkley is about the inverse of that.
It's the same thing as looking at Daboll and saying he had a bad year last year. He won 6 games, 3 of which were started by Tommy DeVito. You're a coach and you won 6 games with everything that went wrong last year? That's an accomplishment. You can look at Barkley's NYG career in much the same light.
There were a couple of moments I hope were made for camera moments, including the Bowen stats.
When Abrams says it's unlikely a team trades a pick and pays Barkley 12M in 2024, that was cringey. Obviously a team who trades for him would be looking to extend him and have the ability to negotiate a contract at their desired terms.
You missed the point. Teams were unlikely to give up for the right to overpay a guy with risky injury history and a limited shelf life.
There were a couple of moments I hope were made for camera moments, including the Bowen stats.
When Abrams says it's unlikely a team trades a pick and pays Barkley 12M in 2024, that was cringey. Obviously a team who trades for him would be looking to extend him and have the ability to negotiate a contract at their desired terms.
You missed the point. Teams were unlikely to give up for the right to overpay a guy with risky injury history and a limited shelf life.
He made a matter of fact statement about the monetary element as if that element was static, which it was not.
That he might have additional opinions on durability, that's cool and more rational. But that's not the part of his thinking I'm referring to.
In the event the Giants had tagged Barkley and then traded him, the receiving team would have had the opportunity to negotiate compensation commensurate with the risk profile.
The market value ultimately was 12.5M AAV. It's certainly reasonable the Giants could have traded Barkley for a late round pick and a team signed Barkley for a south of that. Which would have netted something and kept him out of the division.
The comments from Mara and McDonnell show that there were influential skeptics of letting Barkley walk. The fact that the Giants ultimately did so supports Mara’s claim that he doesn’t strong-arm personnel decisions.
Not sure I agree with this. I see Mara being skeptical of the idea of letting Saquon go, and when presented with a clear path forward, leaving the topic with "I woudn't commit to anything".
It's indirect pressure. A GM with less of a backbone is easily going to be led down the owner's direction of preference.
But the Mara mission was to get the fans off their backs by "proving" they aren't overruling the GM. That conversation isn't close to that but all the beats are writing that it is.
He's the head coach focused on things that happen on the grass. So he'll be overrepresented in competitive disadvantage edits. When they get to OTAs I'd expect (hope) to see more of him.
As a rookie he had Eli manning at qb. Nate soldier playing pretty well and not missing any games at LT. Sterling Shepard and Beckham at WR and Engram at TE. Last year he none of those things. And he was terrific in 2022 lack of huge plays not withstanding. He was very consistent in 22 and virtually carried the team to the playoffs.
There’s good reason why one of the most well run teams in the nfl signed Barkley this offseason. I’d prepare yourself for a lot of big moments out of saquon in Philly this season. Maybe nyg needed to move on, but I still think they handled this Barkley contract badly. The giants could have given the 3 year deal last offseason and refrained from throwing good money after bad with the likes of Waller, Campbell and any one else I can’t think of right now. Whatever, it’s done.
As a rookie he had Eli manning at qb. Nate soldier playing pretty well and not missing any games at LT. Sterling Shepard and Beckham at WR and Engram at TE. Last year he none of those things. And he was terrific in 2022 lack of huge plays not withstanding. He was very consistent in 22 and virtually carried the team to the playoffs.
There’s good reason why one of the most well run teams in the nfl signed Barkley this offseason. I’d prepare yourself for a lot of big moments out of saquon in Philly this season. Maybe nyg needed to move on, but I still think they handled this Barkley contract badly. The giants could have given the 3 year deal last offseason and refrained from throwing good money after bad with the likes of Waller, Campbell and any one else I can’t think of right now. Whatever, it’s done.
One of the most well-run teams (they are) in football had a choice between Justin Jefferson and Jalen Reagor. I respect the hell out of the eagles but they get it incredibly, embarrassingly wrong too, and not in small ways. They just react better and admit mistakes faster.
• Daboll was hardly in the episode, which likely made him happy. Was funny when he pulled Schoen into his office to tell him he was offering the DC job to "Shane" and Schoen confirmed "Shane Bowen?" Then Daboll just read Schoen a bunch of basic Titans stats from the past three seasons. Would think they would have been well aware of those at the time they offered him the job.
Definitely rehearsed. No way does Daboll have to read the data to Schoen. By that point they had been through interviews with several candidates etc. that was not an organic interaction. No way.
Yeah, I agree. I took it as another shot at Wink that of course Daboll was all to happy to deliver
RBs get beat up, they are constantly receiving hits
Thats why Schoens comment about 27 yrs old is common knowledge. Barkley is no better or worse than just about every other back. He played 13+ games in every season but 1. Sure he played through sprains, etc. but all the RBs do. My point here is that Barkley is not more injury prone than any other RB who gets the carries he does, he is not an outlier (and you can check the stats of others if you'd like). So bashing him for injuries isn't a real thing, because you can say the same about almost every other back.
Also the reason you don't draft a RB at #2 is because he is too dependent on the play of the OL and QB. Almost all great RBs have been on really good teams. Barkleys stats are lower than expected because the Giants OL and QB have been a dumpster fire. I'm with DJM, I expect Barkley on the Eagles to have a big season
was definitely staged or scripted. There was no discussion of coaching hire before that. To me Daboll did his work to find his coach and that was kept off camera but they needed a way to intro into Bowen talking scheme.
Did like the jab Daboll threw at Schoen asking him to get their run defense to look like that this year.
When talking to Mara Schoen mentions something about Barkley being offered 7 mil and didn't want to insult him. Then you look at Singletary's deal and his highest cap hit is just under 7 mil. I think Schoen had a cap on what he would spend on a rb.
was definitely staged or scripted. There was no discussion of coaching hire before that. To me Daboll did his work to find his coach and that was kept off camera but they needed a way to intro into Bowen talking scheme.
Did like the jab Daboll threw at Schoen asking him to get their run defense to look like that this year.
When talking to Mara Schoen mentions something about Barkley being offered 7 mil and didn't want to insult him. Then you look at Singletary's deal and his highest cap hit is just under 7 mil. I think Schoen had a cap on what he would spend on a rb.
It was staged, but not to keep the search off camera or some nefarious reason. Bowen was hired in February. The project didn't exist until March
RE: RE: AS a rookie Barkley had 8 runs over 40 yards.
In comment 16547988 Lowell said:
Quote:
The last two years only one over 40
As a rookie he had Eli manning at qb. Nate soldier playing pretty well and not missing any games at LT. Sterling Shepard and Beckham at WR and Engram at TE. Last year he none of those things. And he was terrific in 2022 lack of huge plays not withstanding. He was very consistent in 22 and virtually carried the team to the playoffs.
There’s good reason why one of the most well run teams in the nfl signed Barkley this offseason. I’d prepare yourself for a lot of big moments out of saquon in Philly this season. Maybe nyg needed to move on, but I still think they handled this Barkley contract badly. The giants could have given the 3 year deal last offseason and refrained from throwing good money after bad with the likes of Waller, Campbell and any one else I can’t think of right now. Whatever, it’s done.
Yep, done for the Giants, but not for Philly. Barkley will probably have 8 runs over 40 yards again because their OL is so good and 4 of them will be against the Giants, of course.
Actually, it was a miracle he had those 8 runs over 40 yards with the Giants as he was always getting hit and spinning out of tackles as soon as he received the hand-off.
When Abrams says it's unlikely a team trades a pick and pays Barkley 12M in 2024, that was cringey. Obviously a team who trades for him would be looking to extend him and have the ability to negotiate a contract at their desired terms.
I think the point was "what kind of pick could we expect from a team who also needs to sign him to a long term deal?" which is always the question when trading for a player who wants to be paid his free market value. For instance, Burns is clearly worth more than the early 2nd round pick the Giants gave up for him, but paying him $28.2M/APY with $76M fully guaranteed on top of that makes it a difficult pill to swallow.
p.s.--I've always felt that BBI overvalued Barkley's trade value, but it's the kind of thing where we'll never know the truth of it. Could they have gotten anything more than a 6th or 7th round pick for him last year had they entertained trade offers at the deadline in 2023? And do we know for sure that they didn't listen to offers or are we taking it at face value when Schoen said they didn't even consider it? Any team truly interested last year (especially Buffalo, who they had a relationship with) was going to place a call and if a worthwhile pick had been offered, I imagine they would've accepted it (but who really knows, clearly Mara had fond feelings for him and wasn't going to part with him for a Day 3 pick).
At the deadline because that's the necessary currency. No trade, no player.
Off-season it's for contractual / financial control. Tag and trade works when there's a market for the player at around tag value. I don't think there was a market for Barkley at anything close - the Eagles were a market of one.
Tag and trade works when there's a market for the player at around tag value. I don't think there was a market for Barkley at anything close - the Eagles were a market of one.
And for the Eagles he had added value because they were subtracting him from a division rival (assuming they believed there was a decent chance he would re-sign with the Giants).
Interesting that Schoen was still referencing Waller as part of the plans to Mara in mid-February.
The prevailing sentiment on BBI seems to be "good riddance" when it comes to Waller, but maybe we're all wrong about what's left in the tank. I'm also still of the belief that Waller's hold out and retirement were a bargaining ploy and that we haven't heard the last of him. As a former 6th round pick, it was years before he reached a big payday and for him to walk away from an $11M salary at age 31 surprises me. He would not be the first player to use the retirement angle as a negotiating strategy in the offseason only to return in August or September (e.g., Strahan, Favre). My question is: do they still have to pay the fines (as Strahan did in 2007, albeit not the full amount)? I assume so.
Schoen quickly reacted and pivoted from his strategy once Barkley was gone, a good sign to not be passive.
@DDuggan21
Some leftover thoughts on Hard Knocks:
• Odd amount of time discussing a possible Saquon tag-and-trade, especially after Schoen dismissed it as unrealistic.
• Schoen clearly was wary of getting entangled in more contract drama with Saquon. He said last year's negotiations took 10 years off his life.
• Schoen's actions at RB didn't back up his words. He spoke about how data shows 27-year-old RBs fall off a cliff and then signed a RB who turns 27 before the season. He also mentioned the value signings he expected to be available in the second week of FA and then the only RB he signed was Singletary hours after FA opened. Seems like the RB market developed quicker than he expected.
• Schoen referenced CB, pass rushers and No. 1 WR as big needs early in the offseason. Makes the lack of activity at CB even more surprising.
• The Senior Bowl "trade negotiations" between Schoen and Dan Morgan seemed much more like friends busting balls. I don't think Morgan really thought he was getting two 1's.
• Daboll was hardly in the episode, which likely made him happy. Was funny when he pulled Schoen into his office to tell him he was offering the DC job to "Shane" and Schoen confirmed "Shane Bowen?" Then Daboll just read Schoen a bunch of basic Titans stats from the past three seasons. Would think they would have been well aware of those at the time they offered him the job.
• Interesting that Schoen was still referencing Waller as part of the plans to Mara in mid-February.
• Director of pro scouting Chris Rossetti is probably not a super familiar name to fans. But he clearly has a big voice in free agency discussions. He seemed to have the best handle on Saquon's market.
• We don't need to spend much time on Jones' rehab.
• Schoen's actions at RB didn't back up his words. He spoke about how data shows 27-year-old RBs fall off a cliff and then signed a RB who turns 27 before the season. He also mentioned the value signings he expected to be available in the second week of FA and then the only RB he signed was Singletary hours after FA opened. Seems like the RB market developed quicker than he expected.
• Schoen referenced CB, pass rushers and No. 1 WR as big needs early in the offseason. Makes the lack of activity at CB even more surprising.
• Schoen's actions at RB didn't back up his words. He spoke about how data shows 27-year-old RBs fall off a cliff and then signed a RB who turns 27 before the season. He also mentioned the value signings he expected to be available in the second week of FA and then the only RB he signed was Singletary hours after FA opened. Seems like the RB market developed quicker than he expected.
And also a big difference in the contracts. That was Shoen's point.
• Schoen's actions at RB didn't back up his words. He spoke about how data shows 27-year-old RBs fall off a cliff and then signed a RB who turns 27 before the season. He also mentioned the value signings he expected to be available in the second week of FA and then the only RB he signed was Singletary hours after FA opened. Seems like the RB market developed quicker than he expected.
When Abrams says it's unlikely a team trades a pick and pays Barkley 12M in 2024, that was cringey. Obviously a team who trades for him would be looking to extend him and have the ability to negotiate a contract at their desired terms.
Quote:
but this is dumb point... virtually all unrestricted free agents are around this age...
• Schoen's actions at RB didn't back up his words. He spoke about how data shows 27-year-old RBs fall off a cliff and then signed a RB who turns 27 before the season. He also mentioned the value signings he expected to be available in the second week of FA and then the only RB he signed was Singletary hours after FA opened. Seems like the RB market developed quicker than he expected.
Schoen also mentioned that Barkley had 900+ carries at Penn State, clearly tire tread, not age was the factor. It's good to see that Schoen stood his ground on Barkley against Mara and McDonnel, that SHOULD quiet the Mara Tech stuff. It won't, but it SHOULD.
When the narrator was talking up just how good Barkley is, I turned to my wife and said, "this stuff on Barkley has become a myth... he just hasn't been that good outside of two seasons. He's got a lot of tread on his tires."
Then when Schoen said what you pointed out, I said, "see!"
Quote:
but this is dumb point... virtually all unrestricted free agents are around this age...
• Schoen's actions at RB didn't back up his words. He spoke about how data shows 27-year-old RBs fall off a cliff and then signed a RB who turns 27 before the season. He also mentioned the value signings he expected to be available in the second week of FA and then the only RB he signed was Singletary hours after FA opened. Seems like the RB market developed quicker than he expected.
Schoen also mentioned that Barkley had 900+ carries at Penn State, clearly tire tread, not age was the factor. It's good to see that Schoen stood his ground on Barkley against Mara and McDonnel, that SHOULD quiet the Mara Tech stuff. It won't, but it SHOULD.
Singletary also has 888 career carries vs. 1,201 for Barkley, plus Barkley has one additional year in the NFL than Singletary - but he has played in four fewer games than Singletary (74 vs 78). And Singletary's Y/A is 4.6 vs. 4.3 for Barkley.
And then there's the injury history. Barkley has only had two seasons of 16 games. Singletary has played in 16 or more games every year since his rookie season (when he had 12 games).
And Schoen can't control how quickly the market develops. Bad take by Duggan here.
it seemed like schoen didnt think anyone was paying what PHI did - which he disputed when Rossetti suggested exactly that and then happened. now we hope howie roseman got it wrong and schoen got it right.
it seemed like schoen didnt think anyone was paying what PHI did - which he disputed when Rossetti suggested exactly that and then happened. now we hope howie roseman got it wrong and schoen got it right.
I think the $12 mill/per AAV is about right. It is what was offered in 2022 by Schoen. While I generally agree Barkley gets injured too much, when healthy he is an upper echelon RB.
I think it was staged as well and the reason is Daboll's weight loss.
The video of him with Schoen discussing Bowen, Daboll looks like he does now- his maximum weight loss.
In February when they hired Bowen- Daboll while losing weight, was not that thin yet.
Quote:
the "27 years old" thing is arbitrary, overall i believe saquon is about +400 carries over his career compared to singletary, plus the knee injury. everyone ages differently but i agree with duggan that there was clear misalignment between schoen's portrayal of the RB market and what ended up happening when the market developed. I think he was hoping that he'd be able to get Devin Singletary at $2-4m like last year. That's what Zack Moss and Ekeler ended up getting, but clearly they ended up preferring Singletary. probably because he has been the most durable.
it seemed like schoen didnt think anyone was paying what PHI did - which he disputed when Rossetti suggested exactly that and then happened. now we hope howie roseman got it wrong and schoen got it right.
I think the $12 mill/per AAV is about right. It is what was offered in 2022 by Schoen. While I generally agree Barkley gets injured too much, when healthy he is an upper echelon RB.
barkley got 12.5m AAV and more guaranteed than the NYG offered last year, plus the extra $10m they paid him on the tag. Schoen asked the rhetorical question "who is going to pay him 12m+?" and rossetti correctly pegged it as a team like PHI who thinks they can get those upper echelon qualities out of him.
that doesnt mean schoen made the wrong decision, just that he was lower on barkley than the market (and in this case specifically roseman).
I sorta read it as Daboll being the point person in terms of hiring his assistants and coordinators, and Schoen rubber stamping it.
Schoen was obviously there when Bowen interviewed, but I sense that he sorta stayed in his lane. You can tell from Schoen's phone conversation with Bowen that the call informing him that he had the job came from somebody else in the building - obviously Daboll, IMO.
• Schoen's actions at RB didn't back up his words. He spoke about how data shows 27-year-old RBs fall off a cliff and then signed a RB who turns 27 before the season. He also mentioned the value signings he expected to be available in the second week of FA and then the only RB he signed was Singletary hours after FA opened. Seems like the RB market developed quicker than he expected.
Agree, silly point.
Quote:
• Daboll was hardly in the episode, which likely made him happy. Was funny when he pulled Schoen into his office to tell him he was offering the DC job to "Shane" and Schoen confirmed "Shane Bowen?" Then Daboll just read Schoen a bunch of basic Titans stats from the past three seasons. Would think they would have been well aware of those at the time they offered him the job.
I think it was staged as well and the reason is Daboll's weight loss.
The video of him with Schoen discussing Bowen, Daboll looks like he does now- his maximum weight loss.
In February when they hired Bowen- Daboll while losing weight, was not that thin yet.
That is an interesting observation - I wonder if there will be any further obvious tells like that.
Quote:
In comment 16547886 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
but this is dumb point... virtually all unrestricted free agents are around this age...
• Schoen's actions at RB didn't back up his words. He spoke about how data shows 27-year-old RBs fall off a cliff and then signed a RB who turns 27 before the season. He also mentioned the value signings he expected to be available in the second week of FA and then the only RB he signed was Singletary hours after FA opened. Seems like the RB market developed quicker than he expected.
Schoen also mentioned that Barkley had 900+ carries at Penn State, clearly tire tread, not age was the factor. It's good to see that Schoen stood his ground on Barkley against Mara and McDonnel, that SHOULD quiet the Mara Tech stuff. It won't, but it SHOULD.
Singletary also has 888 career carries vs. 1,201 for Barkley, plus Barkley has one additional year in the NFL than Singletary - but he has played in four fewer games than Singletary (74 vs 78). And Singletary's Y/A is 4.6 vs. 4.3 for Barkley.
And then there's the injury history. Barkley has only had two seasons of 16 games. Singletary has played in 16 or more games every year since his rookie season (when he had 12 games).
And Schoen can't control how quickly the market develops. Bad take by Duggan here.
Singletary is nowhere near Barkley in terms of class of player. Several orders of magnitude lower.
Singletary's career ypc Mark is colored by the very talented QBs and offenses he's played with, and Barkley is about the inverse of that.
It's the same thing as looking at Daboll and saying he had a bad year last year. He won 6 games, 3 of which were started by Tommy DeVito. You're a coach and you won 6 games with everything that went wrong last year? That's an accomplishment. You can look at Barkley's NYG career in much the same light.
When Abrams says it's unlikely a team trades a pick and pays Barkley 12M in 2024, that was cringey. Obviously a team who trades for him would be looking to extend him and have the ability to negotiate a contract at their desired terms.
You missed the point. Teams were unlikely to give up for the right to overpay a guy with risky injury history and a limited shelf life.
When Abrams says it's unlikely a team trades a pick and pays Barkley 12M in 2024, that was cringey. Obviously a team who trades for him would be looking to extend him and have the ability to negotiate a contract at their desired terms.
You missed the point. Teams were unlikely to give up for the right to overpay a guy with risky injury history and a limited shelf life.
He made a matter of fact statement about the monetary element as if that element was static, which it was not.
That he might have additional opinions on durability, that's cool and more rational. But that's not the part of his thinking I'm referring to.
In the event the Giants had tagged Barkley and then traded him, the receiving team would have had the opportunity to negotiate compensation commensurate with the risk profile.
The market value ultimately was 12.5M AAV. It's certainly reasonable the Giants could have traded Barkley for a late round pick and a team signed Barkley for a south of that. Which would have netted something and kept him out of the division.
Quote:
The comments from Mara and McDonnell show that there were influential skeptics of letting Barkley walk. The fact that the Giants ultimately did so supports Mara’s claim that he doesn’t strong-arm personnel decisions.
Not sure I agree with this. I see Mara being skeptical of the idea of letting Saquon go, and when presented with a clear path forward, leaving the topic with "I woudn't commit to anything".
It's indirect pressure. A GM with less of a backbone is easily going to be led down the owner's direction of preference.
They should show him and Schoen sitting in an office sliding pieces of paper back and forth to each other instead of talking.
Maybe they could entice Daboll to cooperate if they gave him a cameo on House of the Dragon? They did those all the time with GoT.
As a rookie he had Eli manning at qb. Nate soldier playing pretty well and not missing any games at LT. Sterling Shepard and Beckham at WR and Engram at TE. Last year he none of those things. And he was terrific in 2022 lack of huge plays not withstanding. He was very consistent in 22 and virtually carried the team to the playoffs.
There’s good reason why one of the most well run teams in the nfl signed Barkley this offseason. I’d prepare yourself for a lot of big moments out of saquon in Philly this season. Maybe nyg needed to move on, but I still think they handled this Barkley contract badly. The giants could have given the 3 year deal last offseason and refrained from throwing good money after bad with the likes of Waller, Campbell and any one else I can’t think of right now. Whatever, it’s done.
Quote:
The last two years only one over 40
As a rookie he had Eli manning at qb. Nate soldier playing pretty well and not missing any games at LT. Sterling Shepard and Beckham at WR and Engram at TE. Last year he none of those things. And he was terrific in 2022 lack of huge plays not withstanding. He was very consistent in 22 and virtually carried the team to the playoffs.
There’s good reason why one of the most well run teams in the nfl signed Barkley this offseason. I’d prepare yourself for a lot of big moments out of saquon in Philly this season. Maybe nyg needed to move on, but I still think they handled this Barkley contract badly. The giants could have given the 3 year deal last offseason and refrained from throwing good money after bad with the likes of Waller, Campbell and any one else I can’t think of right now. Whatever, it’s done.
One of the most well-run teams (they are) in football had a choice between Justin Jefferson and Jalen Reagor. I respect the hell out of the eagles but they get it incredibly, embarrassingly wrong too, and not in small ways. They just react better and admit mistakes faster.
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
• Daboll was hardly in the episode, which likely made him happy. Was funny when he pulled Schoen into his office to tell him he was offering the DC job to "Shane" and Schoen confirmed "Shane Bowen?" Then Daboll just read Schoen a bunch of basic Titans stats from the past three seasons. Would think they would have been well aware of those at the time they offered him the job.
Definitely rehearsed. No way does Daboll have to read the data to Schoen. By that point they had been through interviews with several candidates etc. that was not an organic interaction. No way.
Yeah, I agree. I took it as another shot at Wink that of course Daboll was all to happy to deliver
Also the reason you don't draft a RB at #2 is because he is too dependent on the play of the OL and QB. Almost all great RBs have been on really good teams. Barkleys stats are lower than expected because the Giants OL and QB have been a dumpster fire. I'm with DJM, I expect Barkley on the Eagles to have a big season
Did like the jab Daboll threw at Schoen asking him to get their run defense to look like that this year.
When talking to Mara Schoen mentions something about Barkley being offered 7 mil and didn't want to insult him. Then you look at Singletary's deal and his highest cap hit is just under 7 mil. I think Schoen had a cap on what he would spend on a rb.
Did like the jab Daboll threw at Schoen asking him to get their run defense to look like that this year.
When talking to Mara Schoen mentions something about Barkley being offered 7 mil and didn't want to insult him. Then you look at Singletary's deal and his highest cap hit is just under 7 mil. I think Schoen had a cap on what he would spend on a rb.
It was staged, but not to keep the search off camera or some nefarious reason. Bowen was hired in February. The project didn't exist until March
Quote:
The last two years only one over 40
As a rookie he had Eli manning at qb. Nate soldier playing pretty well and not missing any games at LT. Sterling Shepard and Beckham at WR and Engram at TE. Last year he none of those things. And he was terrific in 2022 lack of huge plays not withstanding. He was very consistent in 22 and virtually carried the team to the playoffs.
There’s good reason why one of the most well run teams in the nfl signed Barkley this offseason. I’d prepare yourself for a lot of big moments out of saquon in Philly this season. Maybe nyg needed to move on, but I still think they handled this Barkley contract badly. The giants could have given the 3 year deal last offseason and refrained from throwing good money after bad with the likes of Waller, Campbell and any one else I can’t think of right now. Whatever, it’s done.
Yep, done for the Giants, but not for Philly. Barkley will probably have 8 runs over 40 yards again because their OL is so good and 4 of them will be against the Giants, of course.
Actually, it was a miracle he had those 8 runs over 40 yards with the Giants as he was always getting hit and spinning out of tackles as soon as he received the hand-off.
When Abrams says it's unlikely a team trades a pick and pays Barkley 12M in 2024, that was cringey. Obviously a team who trades for him would be looking to extend him and have the ability to negotiate a contract at their desired terms.
p.s.--I've always felt that BBI overvalued Barkley's trade value, but it's the kind of thing where we'll never know the truth of it. Could they have gotten anything more than a 6th or 7th round pick for him last year had they entertained trade offers at the deadline in 2023? And do we know for sure that they didn't listen to offers or are we taking it at face value when Schoen said they didn't even consider it? Any team truly interested last year (especially Buffalo, who they had a relationship with) was going to place a call and if a worthwhile pick had been offered, I imagine they would've accepted it (but who really knows, clearly Mara had fond feelings for him and wasn't going to part with him for a Day 3 pick).
Off-season it's for contractual / financial control. Tag and trade works when there's a market for the player at around tag value. I don't think there was a market for Barkley at anything close - the Eagles were a market of one.