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Lombardi: NYG has no philosophical identity

Sean : 7/4/2024 8:03 am
Lombardi commented on the first episode of Hard Knocks talking about how he believes the Giants are just now picking players without any team philosophy. Credit to Go Terps who I've seen make this point here. Lombardi credits NYG for being one of the greatest sport franchises of all time, but they've gotten away from what George Young built. Young built a system and everyone followed the system already in place including Parcells and Belichick running the defense. Now, the Giants sit and listen to what Shane Bowen has to say, but his point is the system should already be established.

All of the coaches who have come through (McAdoo, Shurmur, Judge & Daboll) have further moved the Giants away from the success established with what George Young believed.

Interesting discussion linked below. Starts at the 3:15 minute mark.
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Is this damage control  
RCPhoenix : 7/4/2024 4:39 pm : link
Being fed to Lombardi from the nepo baby McDonnell? Ugh.

Schoen clearly has a sense of what he wants to do. Go vertical, protect the passer, get the D off the field, and have an offense that scores points. Doesn’t mean he’ll be successful, but saying he doesn’t have an identity for the team is foolish.
...  
christian : 7/4/2024 5:13 pm : link
In comment 16548399 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
the bigger question is health. comp% and comp% above expected haven't historically been his issue. the most productive receiver he's played with is slayton, a downfield target with a high drop rate, and not a ton of RAC.

with short schemed touches and their RAC abilities nabers and wandale in particular should be in for very big seasons even if the downfield stuff remains inconsistent.

YAC has not been an issue for Slayton under Kafka. In 2023 he was 11th among NFL WRs with 6.0 YAC/R, in 2022 he was 8th among receivers at 5.7 YAC/R. Pre-Kafka is a different story.

Maybe Wandale gets a mulligan for returning from injury but on 79 targets Slayton had 298 YAC last year, and on 78 targets Robinson had 238. I'm firmly of the opinion Nabers will get the catch and run targets Robinson got last year.

If the offense is the low air yards, high volume approach of 2022 then yes, Jones has showcased he can do that. But in 2022 he also had fewer than 2 deep attempts per game. If he can't stretch the field more, it's certainly easier to keep the shorter stuff in front of them on defense.

slayton's yac improvement is real however remember he can add chunks of rac yards downfield from the point of the catch on, which is yac but running by people downfield is not quite the same as making guys miss. attempts that far downfield are lower probability compared to an easy dump off around the LOS that can turn into a chunk.

last year 209 of wandale's yac yards were on catches 0-9 yards downfield. 63 of them were behind LOS.

slayton had 123 0-9 and 28 behind the LOS. he had more downfield including 97 on 20+ yards downfield (wandale only had 5 such yac yards).

so even in the rehab year wandale had almost twice as much YAC production around the LOS making people miss. that is his game and i suspect nabers will also get a lot of usage there.


I don't disagree Slayton is a different type of receiver than Robinson, and potentially Nabers, but the yards all count the same and require making people miss.

At the end of the day a player like Slayton eating up 770 yards on 79 targets is better than Robinson eating 525 on 78.
RE: Good Players make Philosophical Identity  
HomerJones45 : 7/4/2024 5:20 pm : link
In comment 16548385 JohnF said:
Quote:
You can have any identity you want, but if you don't have the players that won't fit, it won't work.

Look at the Patriots. They were great when they had great players. Once that dried up, the same "identity" started failing. Players are the key here...dominant players make dominant teams.

Things have changed in the NFL in the last 20, 30, 50 years, thanks to rule changes. The game is now a passing game, with the run being less important. Defenses now compete with speed/pressure, with size being less important.

Because of the rule changes, the QB position is vital to a team's success. You can't compete for a championship without a top tier QB. QB's who "manage" the game simply won't cut it.

I guess the conversion from the old NFL "grind and pound" pre merger to the American Football League "Mad Bombers" is almost complete. Like it or not, that's the way the game is going.
not a great take. That Patriot offense morphed multiple times while Brady was there.

The NFL is a copy cat league. Everyone saw KC win it throwing the ball hitting the 15-20 yard zones in the playoffs so now we very one wants to do that. No
RE: Is this damage control  
bw in dc : 7/4/2024 5:36 pm : link
In comment 16548411 RCPhoenix said:
Quote:
Being fed to Lombardi from the nepo baby McDonnell? Ugh.

Schoen clearly has a sense of what he wants to do. Go vertical, protect the passer, get the D off the field, and have an offense that scores points. Doesn’t mean he’ll be successful, but saying he doesn’t have an identity for the team is foolish.


Well, to be clear, it's Daboll's system and Schoen is leading the search to find the pieces.

The part I doubt we will ever know is if Daboll really believes in Jones or if he's being a good soldier, following orders, and will try to make the Jones take the next step.
...  
christian : 7/4/2024 5:43 pm : link
In comment 16548421 bw in dc said:
Quote:
The part I doubt we will ever know is if Daboll really believes in Jones or if he's being a good soldier, following orders, and will try to make the Jones take the next step.


If Skinny Daboll fires a tablet at him, that'll answer the question.
RE: ...  
bw in dc : 7/4/2024 5:49 pm : link
In comment 16548422 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16548421 bw in dc said:


Quote:


The part I doubt we will ever know is if Daboll really believes in Jones or if he's being a good soldier, following orders, and will try to make the Jones take the next step.



If Skinny Daboll fires a tablet at him, that'll answer the question.


When Fat Dabs threw the tablet in the Seattle game, I thought that was end of the Jones Era.

...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 7/4/2024 6:02 pm : link
I know a lot of people got up in arms when Dabs tossed the tablet in the Seattle game, but I thought Jones just walking past Dabs after getting back to the sideline was more telling, as if Jones was all but telling Dabs to fuck off.
Many of Lombardi's takes don't bother me  
Husserlian : 7/4/2024 6:07 pm : link
but the one flagged by Sean is a silly take by Lombardi, imo. We should want the Giants to re-evaluate what wins in the NFL, because we aren't in 1986 anymore, or 2011. And what won in those prior eras likely won't work today, because the game has changed. But other things he said in that segment are true, that the Giants talk in HK as if Daniel Jones is really good, just unlucky, that they seem to think he is good but as Lombardi points out the performance isn't there to justify that opinion, and the idea that the QB helps make the line. Specifically he says the SF line isn't very good beyond Trent Williams, and Purdy knows how to get rid of the ball quickly, accurately and with purpose.
...  
christian : 7/4/2024 6:15 pm : link
In comment 16548423 bw in dc said:
Quote:
The part I doubt we will ever know is if Daboll really believes in Jones or if he's being a good soldier, following orders, and will try to make the Jones take the next step.

If Skinny Daboll fires a tablet at him, that'll answer the question.

When Fat Dabs threw the tablet in the Seattle game, I thought that was end of the Jones Era.


Fat Dabs was part of doing everything possible to make it hard for the kid. They asked Dabs to slim down.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 7/4/2024 6:19 pm : link
I think there's a good chance Dabs is out on Jones. That's just a guess obviously. Remember how giddy he was with Jones on 1/1/23 during/after that Colts game? I think that admiration is long gone.

Barring the unexpected, Jones will be starting Week 1 vs. Minnesota. But I think it'll be a short leash if he doesn't play well.
...  
christian : 7/4/2024 6:24 pm : link
In comment 16548431 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
I think there's a good chance Dabs is out on Jones. That's just a guess obviously. Remember how giddy he was with Jones on 1/1/23 during/after that Colts game? I think that admiration is long gone.

Barring the unexpected, Jones will be starting Week 1 vs. Minnesota. But I think it'll be a short leash if he doesn't play well.


When they get a load of how crappy Lock is later this month, that leash will be pretty long for Jones.
RE: In the almost 30 years  
Paulie Walnuts : 7/4/2024 6:34 pm : link
In comment 16548362 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I've run this site, I've noticed that Giants fans love teams that win and hate teams that lose.

And teams that win have some sort of mystical "identity" and teams that lose don't.
bingo remember 2011? Team could not run ar all and the defense was suspect winning papers everything over
christian.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 7/4/2024 6:36 pm : link
I'm under no illusion that Lock is good. But I do think the Seattle's GM comments about Lock being told he'd compete for a starting job isn't bullshit either. & while 'compete' might be stretching out that word, I think it's possible he got a wink wink that he'd have a good shot at starting if Jones didn't perform.
You can't fault NYG for not going QB imo  
Sean : 7/4/2024 6:45 pm : link
As The Mike has said, NYG needs top end talent. If the threshold is just draft a QB better than Jones, is that worth the 6th pick? Is it worth drafting Ryan Tannehill at 6 to improve from Jones? Or do you take someone who can be a top 5 player at his position?

Next week will be interesting to see how the QB evaluation is portrayed.
Lombardi's "philosophical identity" consists of coming up with  
Ira : 7/4/2024 6:45 pm : link
ridiculous jabs at all things relating to the NY Giants.
Sean.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 7/4/2024 6:50 pm : link
Well-& I've said this before-if just one of JJ, Nix, or Penix hit...the Giants are going to look like fools. And I know the caveat that QBs are helped by their environment (Is Mahomes THE Mahomes if he was drafted by Jacksonville instead of KC? Doubtful)...but it's going to be a bad, bad look for this regime after giving Jones that contract.
RE: Sean.  
Sean : 7/4/2024 6:52 pm : link
In comment 16548443 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
Well-& I've said this before-if just one of JJ, Nix, or Penix hit...the Giants are going to look like fools. And I know the caveat that QBs are helped by their environment (Is Mahomes THE Mahomes if he was drafted by Jacksonville instead of KC? Doubtful)...but it's going to be a bad, bad look for this regime after giving Jones that contract.

The Bills traded out of picking Mahomes to the Chiefs (a team they now can't beat in the playoffs). Yet, no one talks about it because they landed Josh Allen.

The Giants will look like fools if any of those hit and they still haven't resolved QB in 2-3 years.
RE: You can't fault NYG for not going QB imo  
Husserlian : 7/4/2024 6:53 pm : link
In comment 16548439 Sean said:
Quote:
As The Mike has said, NYG needs top end talent. If the threshold is just draft a QB better than Jones, is that worth the 6th pick? Is it worth drafting Ryan Tannehill at 6 to improve from Jones? Or do you take someone who can be a top 5 player at his position?

Next week will be interesting to see how the QB evaluation is portrayed.


There are a lot of ways to improve the position. They could have traded out of #6. It's the Giants biggest need but they behave like they have the position solved.
RE: ...  
Husserlian : 7/4/2024 6:54 pm : link
In comment 16548433 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16548431 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:


Quote:


I think there's a good chance Dabs is out on Jones. That's just a guess obviously. Remember how giddy he was with Jones on 1/1/23 during/after that Colts game? I think that admiration is long gone.

Barring the unexpected, Jones will be starting Week 1 vs. Minnesota. But I think it'll be a short leash if he doesn't play well.



When they get a load of how crappy Lock is later this month, that leash will be pretty long for Jones.


Maybe. But Lock is more of a downfield thrower. He might fit the Daboll offense better than Jones.
Husserlian  
Sean : 7/4/2024 6:57 pm : link
I don't believe they think they have it solved at all. Tim McDonnell is asking what they identify of the offense will be without Barkley. A team which believes they have it solved doesn't ask that question.
RE: RE: Sean.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 7/4/2024 7:00 pm : link
In comment 16548445 Sean said:
Quote:
In comment 16548443 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:


Quote:


Well-& I've said this before-if just one of JJ, Nix, or Penix hit...the Giants are going to look like fools. And I know the caveat that QBs are helped by their environment (Is Mahomes THE Mahomes if he was drafted by Jacksonville instead of KC? Doubtful)...but it's going to be a bad, bad look for this regime after giving Jones that contract.


The Bills traded out of picking Mahomes to the Chiefs (a team they now can't beat in the playoffs). Yet, no one talks about it because they landed Josh Allen.

The Giants will look like fools if any of those hit and they still haven't resolved QB in 2-3 years.


Which is a very distinct possibility.

Based on how John & 'The Nephew' were talking about Saquon, I can only imagine how they feel about Jones.
RE: christian.  
bw in dc : 7/4/2024 7:04 pm : link
In comment 16548437 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
I'm under no illusion that Lock is good. But I do think the Seattle's GM comments about Lock being told he'd compete for a starting job isn't bullshit either. & while 'compete' might be stretching out that word, I think it's possible he got a wink wink that he'd have a good shot at starting if Jones didn't perform.


Jones hasn't been good, but Dabka got the most of out of him in 2022.

Lock is more physically gifted than Jones. He has a plus arm. So, I don't it's a stretch to think Dabka could get to the bottom of Lock; and he plays his best football.
bw in dc.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 7/4/2024 7:09 pm : link
Jones' best ability as a QB is taking off & running with the rock. That's TBD after his injury. & I know ACL injuries aren't as devastating as they were say 20 years ago, but it's still an impediment.
RE: bw in dc.  
Scooter185 : 7/4/2024 7:18 pm : link
In comment 16548452 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
Jones' best ability as a QB is taking off & running with the rock. That's TBD after his injury. & I know ACL injuries aren't as devastating as they were say 20 years ago, but it's still an impediment.


Even before the ACL tear opposing Ds took away his ability to run.
SFGF  
Sean : 7/4/2024 7:37 pm : link
Apparently not enough to think he can lead the offense without Barkley.
RE: SFGF  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 7/4/2024 7:46 pm : link
In comment 16548459 Sean said:
Quote:
Apparently not enough to think he can lead the offense without Barkley.


Well, I think we're spinning our wheels @ this point with Jones.
RE: Husserlian  
Husserlian : 7/4/2024 7:48 pm : link
In comment 16548449 Sean said:
Quote:
I don't believe they think they have it solved at all. Tim McDonnell is asking what they identify of the offense will be without Barkley. A team which believes they have it solved doesn't ask that question.


I have to watch the episode again. A lot of the Jones discussion seemed centered on his injuries and bad luck. But I think based on their actions and some of the content in the show, Lombardi fairly concludes that the Giants have evaluated Jones to be better than many outside the team think he is. It explains a lot. It explains the contract. It explains the decision to not go hard for an alternative. Until they bench Jones, something they have never done even though he has played poorly for long stretches, I think it is fair to say the organization continues to treat him as a franchise QB. Maybe not specific individuals. Maybe not Daboll. But the organization -- yes.
I agree that we are spinning our wheels with Jones  
Sean : 7/4/2024 7:54 pm : link
The contract was a mistake, and I do think Schoen likes Jones. I also think he'll need to need to do things he has never done in his career to this point to be considered more than a placeholder in 2025.
 
christian : 7/4/2024 8:17 pm : link
Lock couldn't hit a barn with a tractor. I wanted him to succeed in Denver because I wanted him over Jones. But his trial run was embarrassing.
Does Michael Lombardi  
EddieNYG : 7/4/2024 8:41 pm : link
Comment on any other team than the Giants?

Also, this was one of the worst GMs in the NFL history with the Cleveland Browns and he is constantly referred to as some sort of "expert."

He drafted Barkevious Mingo 6th overall and people take his word as gospel. Amazing!
RE: I don’t have the anti-Lombardi antipathy  
4xchamps : 7/4/2024 8:41 pm : link
In comment 16548230 Section331 said:
Quote:
many here do, but I disagree with him here. I think Schoen has a very identifiable philosophy - he values speed. I would argue a little too much, too often at the expense of length, but it is a distinct philosophy. Whether it works or not is another question.


By "length" you actually mean "height" right? So sick of this football vernacular...
RE: RE: I don’t have the anti-Lombardi antipathy  
christian : 7/4/2024 8:59 pm : link
In comment 16548480 4xchamps said:
Quote:
many here do, but I disagree with him here. I think Schoen has a very identifiable philosophy - he values speed. I would argue a little too much, too often at the expense of length, but it is a distinct philosophy. Whether it works or not is another question.

By "length" you actually mean "height" right? So sick of this football vernacular...


Well you'll be glad to know when people use the term length they're typically referring to some combination of height and limb length. So your sensibilities can rest easy tonight.
RE: …  
Husserlian : 7/4/2024 8:59 pm : link
In comment 16548471 christian said:
Quote:
Lock couldn't hit a barn with a tractor. I wanted him to succeed in Denver because I wanted him over Jones. But his trial run was embarrassing.


I agree he isn't the answer. But as a downfield thrower he is definitely better than Tommy D. And he might be better than Tyrod. And those guys had some throwing success in Daboll's system. Maybe Lock can do better than we think in these circumstances, until we find a stud.
Why this clown's opinion gets posted on here  
Dave in Hoboken : 7/4/2024 9:07 pm : link
as much as it does is beyond anyone with a brain.
RE: Does Michael Lombardi  
RetroJint : 7/4/2024 9:36 pm : link
In comment 16548479 EddieNYG said:
Quote:
Comment on any other team than the Giants?

Also, this was one of the worst GMs in the NFL history with the Cleveland Browns and he is constantly referred to as some sort of "expert."

He drafted Barkevious Mingo 6th overall and people take his word as gospel. Amazing!

How to be , Eddie. Lombardi playing his usual role as Giant detractor . Not saying the last 10 years have been fun. Most years they sucked . But the philosophy angle is , at best, symptom not cause . They stopped getting enough good players .
Listening to the interview  
BigBlueCane : 7/4/2024 9:37 pm : link
Lombardi is not necessarily zeroing on a scheme but on the culture the Giants have created over the years.

There's too many people involved in the decision making process. The Giants don't have an overall philosophical sense of who they are. They adapt to their coaches rather then having coaches adapting to them. Etc...
culture...  
Brown_Hornet : 7/5/2024 12:30 am : link
...leads to winning.

Talent doesn't create culture, culture exposes talent.
Agree that they have no identity.  
ThomasG : 7/5/2024 8:40 am : link
But that is only a result of the problems within the franchise, not the reason.

Right now their identity should be about making better decisions in the front office, on the practice field, on the sidelines and under center. Then lets see what identity evolves.

Identity = winning; no identity = losing  
PatersonPlank : 7/5/2024 8:52 am : link
If they start winning suddenly someone will point out their new identity (which likely has to do with somehow scoring more points than they are giving up).

Lombardi has no identity either
RE: RE: Sean you are an excellent poster  
blueblood : 7/5/2024 9:03 am : link
In comment 16548223 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 16548219 JCin332 said:


Quote:


but Lombardi is an ass clown yet you continually post his shite...



This. At this point, Lombardi is coming across as a stalker.


Lombardi is a jack ass.. he has an OBVIOUS axe to Grind with the Giants organization so I pay attention to NOTHING he says about the Giants because he simply cannot be objective
Maybe the Giants should  
Hong Kong Hot Tubs : 7/5/2024 9:18 am : link
instill the philosophy of the Patriots and not re-sign a 1st round draft pick for 10 years?

Is that the philosophy he was talking about?
...  
ryanmkeane : 7/5/2024 9:33 am : link
This guy needs some new material
he'll get some  
BigBlueCane : 7/5/2024 10:24 am : link
when the season starts I'd wager.
They  
Toth029 : 7/5/2024 10:32 am : link
Face off early against Minnesota and Washington. They aren't likely to be considered favorites for the playoffs. So he'll shut his mouth until something happens he can use as material. Basic bullshit journalism, like he's on a sports version of The View.
no identity, no plan  
bc4life : 7/5/2024 12:18 pm : link
that's just wrong. you cannot see their offensive identity because their OL precluded them from executing at an average level on a consistent basis. Daboll knows what he wants to do on O - they have not had the horses.

On defense - Wink underachieved and now we enter the Bowen regime.
I'll be happy  
Lines of Scrimmage : 7/5/2024 12:26 pm : link
when they have a strong physical identity again. That was a big part of the Young/Parcells years and then the first 6-7 years of the Coughlin era.

When that identity went away rooted in the great destruction of the LoS the franchise fell on hard times. They still have not recovered.
I enjoy Lombardi holding the Mara's accountable  
arniefez : 7/6/2024 2:25 pm : link
for the horrible Giants teams of the past decade. It is their fault. They are the problem. John Mara changed the structure of the Giants football operation when he installed his brother in the position now held by his nephew.

I think it's pretty clear what the Schoen/Daboll philosophy is on offense: vertical passing with speed players. Slayton, Nabers and Hyatt are a very fast trio. Robinson isn't as straight line fast but he's super quick. With a good OL and a good QB they can be a very dangerous group.

Defensively I think Lombardi has a point. I'll reserve judgment until I see how the defense plays this year. I think the defense Bowen says he wants to play fits the style/philosophy of how the Giants played defense when they had their best years.

From what I saw and heard on Hard Knocks I think the Giants have upgraded at DC. I hope we don't have to watch Trey Hawkins playing press on Tyreek Hill on the wide side of the field with no safety help again. I hope we don't have to watch the Giants give up 600 yards in one game to Dallas. Or 89 points in 2 games.

But right now I don't see the 4 elite pash rushers Bowen is looking for. Dex sure, Burns supposedly but I've never seen him play, Thibodeaux has not shown anything near an elite pass rush in his two years. That's only 3 guys. Who would be #4? And what happens if any of those 3 get hurt?

The entire secondary is one big question mark. Banks and Pinnock seem to be sure starters. Both are young and have shown flashes of being above average. They've both struggled at times too. There's no starting CB2, no starting CB3, no starting FS with any NFL experience. With an average or below average pass rush how effective will the secondary be?
RE: Is this damage control  
FStubbs : 7/6/2024 6:41 pm : link
In comment 16548411 RCPhoenix said:
Quote:
Being fed to Lombardi from the nepo baby McDonnell? Ugh.

Schoen clearly has a sense of what he wants to do. Go vertical, protect the passer, get the D off the field, and have an offense that scores points. Doesn’t mean he’ll be successful, but saying he doesn’t have an identity for the team is foolish.


Even Reese (basketball on grass) and Gettleman (hog mollies) had philosophies, even if the former failed in the 2nd half of his tenure and the latter failed entirely.
RE: I'll be happy  
SirLoinOfBeef : 7/7/2024 10:40 am : link
In comment 16548644 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
when they have a strong physical identity again. That was a big part of the Young/Parcells years and then the first 6-7 years of the Coughlin era.

When that identity went away rooted in the great destruction of the LoS the franchise fell on hard times. They still have not recovered.


Perhaps.

However IMO the game has changed a lot since those days. The Giants organization has not adapted well to those changes.

If you do not adapt, you die.

Lombardi praised Tim McDonnell on the GM Shuffle  
Sean : 7/9/2024 8:21 am : link
Said he was the only one to ask the right question about identity.
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