Lombardi: NYG has no philosophical identity

Lombardi a well known "executive " who has had a beef with the Giants.....as a source of validation.

His is a fool....

The world has changed a bit since the 1980s bruh.

That scene where Bowen was explaining to management what the defense was going to be was weird.

even sure what this means. This is a common criticism by fans when their team sucks.

They want to be able to throw the football and they want to play good defense. That's their "philosophy."

In comment 16548190 christian said:

Quote:

That scene where Bowen was explaining to management what the defense was going to be was weird.

???

This is what the Giants have done for years, under different regimes. The coaches explain to the personnel guys what they need to make their systems work.


It would have been "weird" if they didn't do this.

to Accorsi, to Reese, to Gettleman, and we all know how that turned out.

Sometimes a new approach is needed, and I don't think anyone would disagree that this organization is in many ways lacking an identity. With that said, it's one of those things... you don't have an identity until you have one.

It's valid, but facile criticism. Par for the course with Lombardi. There is rarely anything particularly insightful about what he has to say regarding this team, mostly dunking on the obvious missteps.

our identity will be found. This is such a dumb take.

is what the Giants identity is. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

The Giants tried to add a few shiny, strong, expensive new links, like a Barkley, to fill seats and sell merchandise. But, that doesn't make the entire chain any stronger.

They need to concentrate on the weak links, better. Will 2024 show such improvement, and identify those weak links? Are some of the weak links not the ones who suit up on Sundays?

It'd make no sense to hire a DC & then not build a defense around what he wants to implement. Or am I insane?

With guys that can separate and run after the catch. They’re pretty clearly trying to replicate what that had in Buffalo offensively. Whether the qb can execute that or whether it will work remains to be seen. But if we’re going to discuss something as ambiguous as identity it’s pretty clear there. Defensively sure but that’s going to happen when you have to change defensive coaches from one that has a unique system in Wink. You can criticize the Giants for that hire and fallout sure, that’s valid because it blew up.

While I don’t think that Bowen scene was staged it was certainly edited down. There did seem to be some staged conversations or forced exposition scenes to help the production.

In comment 16548197 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

Quote:

It'd make no sense to hire a DC & then not build a defense around what he wants to implement. Or am I insane?

Exactly

I thought his criticism of Daniel Jones was valid. Though I don't know if he was saying the same things when the Giants gave Jones his big contract (I assume he was). And his point that great QB's make the Oline better was good. Lombardi also questioned making decisions by committee which I agree with, but none of us know how the Giants really make decisions, so I don't think we have enough info to criticize the Giants on their decision making process. The Giants brass know they are being filmed, I assume many conversations happen behind closed doors away from the cameras.

His criticism that the Giants don't have a philosophy showed Lombardi is out of date, in my opinion. You need to fit the system to the strengths of your players. I think Daboll and Schoen understand this. Also, having meetings to draft players that are the best potential fit for the what the coaches want seems like an excellent idea. Further, why bring in a new defensive coordinator to just tell him how he should run his defense? Makes no sense.

I think Daboll wants to get vertical and push the ball down the field through the air, but he hasn't had the personnel to do it. We need Shane Bowen to hit as a defensive coordinator. It is clear Schoen wants to build through the trenches with the trade for Brian Burns and drafting Thibs and Neal.

In short, I find Lombardi most on point when discussing QB play, the rest he seems out of date.

Explain what every other NFL teams identity is. I'll wait. Are there a few that aren't QB based? Maybe. What is the Commanders identity? What is the Cowboys? The Colts?

Stupid.

In comment 16548199 AcesUp said:

Quote:

While I don’t think that Bowen scene was staged it was certainly edited down. There did seem to be some staged conversations or forced exposition scenes to help the production.

Agree... The scene seemed highly edited. I couldn't follow the back and forth. At one point Bowen asks a question to the group about a penetrating DT vs pass rusher and then they cut to Schoen saying something like "Pass rush... music to my ears" or something like that. It seemed like there was some discussion that most have been cut out.

how many losing teams have identities?

you build an identity from having success by drafting or adding players who can do things you want them to do (pass, catch, run, block, etc.) and then as coaches you find ways to get the most out of them working together as cohesive units.

it's only once your identity is established that you add those missing pieces from your philosophy (we need a blocking TE or a possession receiver or a stretch the field speed weapon or a run stopper, pass rusher, etc.).

Nick Saban describes winning as requiring three things. Sure there is some level of platitude here, but it's also actionable IMO.

In comment 16548205 Spartan10 said:

Quote:

In comment 16548199 AcesUp said: Quote: While I don’t think that Bowen scene was staged it was certainly edited down. There did seem to be some staged conversations or forced exposition scenes to help the production. Agree... The scene seemed highly edited. I couldn't follow the back and forth. At one point Bowen asks a question to the group about a penetrating DT vs pass rusher and then they cut to Schoen saying something like "Pass rush... music to my ears" or something like that. It seemed like there was some discussion that most have been cut out.

My guess is there was a Christian Wilkins vs. Brian Burns discussion and they did not want it aired due to revealing too much about the types of players Bowen wants. If you know, for example, that Bowen wants a particular type of CB, DT, etc. you can pigeonhole whom the Giants are likely to have on their short list come draft/FA.

he is wrong.

If he doesn't see what they want to do on offense, then he is obtuse. Clearly Schoen is moving away from run oriented to passing.

With Bowen now at DC, they are changing from Winks single high to possibly 2 high or 4 high with an emphasis on stopping the run...

I could be wrong, but that is what I see. They aren't drafting fast WRs for the hell of it.

And fed Lombardi this piece, didn’t they?

Seriously, this is media manipulation 101, so transparent here…

Always has been and will. Fierce pass rush in particular......music to Schoen's ears.

Offensively Daboll was pass first his last couple seasons in Buffalo. But not always. He didn't force it here. This year he'll likely start thinking that way. But even if our offense rocks, identity-wise, it's (supposed to be) subordinate to defense. Like HK pointed out, "dee-fence" started with the NYFG.

In comment 16548190 christian said:

Quote:

That scene where Bowen was explaining to management what the defense was going to be was weird.

Breaking news. New defensive coordinator explains his scheme to management/scouts so they can go out and find compatible players. Weird.

And good coaching, with all of the coaches on the same page, is important too.

But all of this is second fiddle to one basic, fundamental question: Can your General Manager consistently draft good players year in and year out?

Ball's in your court Joe Schoen!

Strategy
Defense
Stop the run (No)
Rush the passer (Not consistent)
Take the ball away (At times)

Offense
Protect the QB (No, No, No)
Challenge the defense (No)
Protect the ball (At times)
Run when you need to (No)

Roster
Strong in the trenches (No, but maybe better)
Fast explosive playmakers (In theory)
Multiple edge rushers (Getting there)
Smart, Tough, Dependable

I also think after they made the playoffs in 2022 they got away from it. This offseason has had the feel of getting back on track

Emphasis on high value positions (pass rush, WR) smart defenders and speed on offense.

but Lombardi is an ass clown yet you continually post his shite...

In comment 16548219 JCin332 said:

Quote:

but Lombardi is an ass clown yet you continually post his shite...

This. At this point, Lombardi is coming across as a stalker.

In comment 16548219 JCin332 said:

Quote:

but Lombardi is an ass clown yet you continually post his shite...

seriously every single Lombardi submission on this site is by him

I'm not saying the new coordinator briefing the personnel staff on his system was weird. I'm saying the way the scene for the documentary was shot and setup was weird.

It was framed like the principals were hearing his approach for the first time. And combined with the clip where Daboll is showing Schoen the Titans defensive rankings right in the same breath as deciding to hire him, the film makers made it look like the Giants picked their coordinator out of a grab bag.

I don't think that's the case. But after the Wink fall out, where it appeared Daboll wasn't a particularly active participant in the defense and that the defense and offense were not well calibrated, the Giants look a little sloppy.

many here do, but I disagree with him here. I think Schoen has a very identifiable philosophy - he values speed. I would argue a little too much, too often at the expense of length, but it is a distinct philosophy. Whether it works or not is another question.

They were only a “run team” because SB was the only NFL level talent on the offense. The OL, TE and WR were a joke. The running ability of the QB was even exaggerated. He ran a lot, planned or otherwise, because passing was near impossible. The “identity” they are trying to build is an offense that can score points.

Of a new regime. The identity of this team and roster is literally being forged as we speak. And it’s a different identity but one that is evolving right before our eyes. It’s not a finished product. But let me guess. Jones. Contract. Contact. Jones. Jones. Contract. Maybe sprinkle in some Barkley and bla bla bla fucking bla.

Offer up anything. ANYTHING! Nah, low hanging fruit.

The group meeting in Schoen's office appeared staged and fake. Thats just my opinion but that's how it came across to me. It's like they did this for the filming and wanted to include everyone. And in some ways cooperations do this. Hold meetings and get opinions and then the boss makes a decision. Giants poor seasons has led to all this bashing. And they are going to get bashed until they win.

Mentioned previously that late last season he placed the Giants as his worst team, and yet four of the teams he placed immediately above them were ones they had beaten.
He had the Commanders rated better than the Giants.
The guy is a bore. He likes to come across with levity, but when you see through him, you realise he has no special insight into anything football related.

he says what he says with the core intent of getting exactly this reaction (people spreading the nonsense he says). he is cousins with steven a smith or mad dog russo. imagine starting new threads every time either of them observes anything.

Losing teams don’t have identities. Whatever they are trying to accomplish they are not accomplishing, or they would be winning. Pick a team with several straight losing seasons and define their identity. Hapless? Stupid? Confused? Those aren’t identities.

You don’t pick an identity for your team and then go do that. You identify what you think will work, get the players and coaches you think can execute that, and then you practice like hell, making adjustments along the way, until it works or until you have to change course. If you start winning consistently, the things you do well become your team identity.

The view Lombardi presented is just a weak platitude with no value.

or to the off field decision making process where GY was the final say to our present day, everyone gets a say so.

He has been very anti Giants, but the Giants have also been mostly bad in the last decade. I do think Lombardi is not fair across the board as he's much easier on franchises where he has a family connection or he's friendly with.

In this case, I found his comments interesting. We have a few BBI'ers who are vocal about how NYG has gotten away from what has made them successful in the past. While we have others who think they have been extremely archaic in only hiring GM's that worked under Young's philosophy either via Young directly or Accorsi (Accorsi, Reese & Gettleman).

Where Lombardi is being hypocritical is he was often critical of NYG being way too insular, now they hire outside of their family and they are getting too far from what George Young believed? It does come off like just shitting on the Giants.

OL, Pass Rush, Speed, that’s been the investment, that’s the identity they are building. Lombardi will keep saying we don’t have an identity until we win, it’s just empty words. You can say it about any team that stinks.

Or maybe Confuscianism...

In comment 16548250 Sean said:

Quote:

He has been very anti Giants, but the Giants have also been mostly bad in the last decade. I do think Lombardi is not fair across the board as he's much easier on franchises where he has a family connection or he's friendly with. In this case, I found his comments interesting. We have a few BBI'ers who are vocal about how NYG has gotten away from what has made them successful in the past. While we have others who think they have been extremely archaic in only hiring GM's that worked under Young's philosophy either via Young directly or Accorsi (Accorsi, Reese & Gettleman). Where Lombardi is being hypocritical is he was often critical of NYG being way too insular, now they hire outside of their family and they are getting too far from what George Young believed? It does come off like just shitting on the Giants.

it doesnt generate good dialogue, it generates the same repetitive dialogue that's happened a million times on this board - except with the false whiff of legitimacy since he'll never stop milking his 1 season as a GM more than a decade ago.

he fishes for dialogue in whatever way he can because podcast downloads is the only goal. he has flat out made things up in that pursuit w/r/t nyg, like he did with matt rhule. any of his current pearls of wisdom are no more valuable than "matt rhule culture builder extraordinaire" or "josh mcdaniels super genious". how did those organizational identities work out? fine with Mike I guess because each employed his kids.

any coherence you're seeing in his criticisms of the nyg are connected by only 2 things, that they haven't been good and it's an engaged fanbase full of clicks/downloads. ok and a 3rd thing, they dont currently employ any of his kids. the rest is fill in the blanks bullshit.

I'm guessing the scene is like making a movie about a historical event. Nothing is decided or fixed in one scene, but to tell a story in a condensed format you have can only show so much.

In comment 16548223 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

In comment 16548219 JCin332 said: Quote: but Lombardi is an ass clown yet you continually post his shite... This. At this point, Lombardi is coming across as a stalker.

Which is what makes the earlier comparison to Go Terps so perfect and one that should have Go Terps pissed off.

In comment 16548223 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

In comment 16548219 JCin332 said: Quote: but Lombardi is an ass clown yet you continually post his shite... This. At this point, Lombardi is coming across as a stalker.

Yep. I mean, we've only heard them say words like smart, tough, dependable, like what? Five million times? It wasn't clear in all the Saquan stuff that they are a pass first team which deemphasizes the running game? It's not apparent that speed and separation are specific qualities in their receivers over big bodies? It wasn't clear with the segment with Shane Bowen that step one was to understand what what's important to the defense? Four pass rushers with penetrators in the middle, the two Middle LBs need to be the smartest defenders on the field... I mean you have to have your head totally up your ass to make a statement like this. I get it --the team has been bad. But some people have completely lost their freaking marbles.

Right up there with "but what's our offensive identity gonna be without Saquon?" These alta kakas love their buzzwords. Every team in the NFL outside of maybe Baltimore have one "identity " it's their franchise QB and how good he is or who their current stars are. Period. Full stop. Baltimore I'll give you eventhough they have a franchise QB have a identity of toughness on D and a solid run the ball philosophy for the past few decades.

Lombardi has it ass backwards. Teams win in the NFL because they have good players and you get good players where you can. Of course you can try to build something but that only works if you get good players and 99 times out of a 100 you get good players because you're lucky. We can talk about George Young all day but the fact is that in 1979 the QB they really wanted was Jack Thompson and they only took Simms when Cincinnati took Thompson ahead of them. Then guys like Taylor and Banks, the absolute anchors of their success literally just fell into their laps. I also suspect that if Young and company were running the Giants in 2018 they would also have taken Barkley in a heartbeat. In fact, if George Young had a philosophy it was 'take the best player!' I would also suspect that had we had a healthy Saquon and a healthy Odell the past few years would very likely have been quite different at least from an offensive standpoint. And what I believe makes it kind of exciting these days is that it appears that the Giants are slowly starting to build up a cadre of good young players - Dex, Thomas, Burns, Thibs, Nabers, Banks - but it takes time. Remember that the Giants were something like 25 and 45 in Young's first 5 years here, including an utterly dismal 3-12-1 in his 5th season.

The offensive identity is coming into focus -- the Giants top 4 receivers could beat many countries in a 4x100 relay.

Daboll made due with the leftovers and should be commended for 2022.

The real remaining question is if Jones can get the ball to the skill players.

In comment 16548274 Stu11 said:

Quote:

Right up there with "but what's our offensive identity gonna be without Saquon?" These alta kakas love their buzzwords. Every team in the NFL outside of maybe Baltimore have one "identity " it's their franchise QB and how good he is or who their current stars are. Period. Full stop. Baltimore I'll give you eventhough they have a franchise QB have a identity of toughness on D and a solid run the ball philosophy for the past few decades.

team identity is basically just whoever the head coach/gm is at that moment. baltimore has had continuity with newsome/decosta/harbough.

indy was 1 way with peyton manning pre-dungy, then they were peyton + tampa 2 with dungy.

rams identity with Les Snead + Jeff Fisher was incompetence. with Les Snead + McVay they are cutting edge.

2/3 of the league has losing coaches so their identity is losing. pretty much that simple.

In comment 16548277 christian said:

Quote:

The offensive identity is coming into focus -- the Giants top 4 receivers could beat many countries in a 4x100 relay. Daboll made due with the leftovers and should be commended for 2022. The real remaining question is if Jones can get the ball to the skill players.

the bigger question is health. comp% and comp% above expected haven't historically been his issue. the most productive receiver he's played with is slayton, a downfield target with a high drop rate, and not a ton of RAC.

with short schemed touches and their RAC abilities nabers and wandale in particular should be in for very big seasons even if the downfield stuff remains inconsistent.

you will enjoy it.
https://www.giants.com/video/giants-huddle-wide-receivers - ( New Window )

where free agency creates so much movement, and rosters turn over so frequently.

You could argue the contrary, namely, that the best teams maintain an identity which transcends personnel – but that's seldom true anymore. As other posters have said, how many other teams have a meaningful, recognizable identity? I'll go first: the Cowboys' is All Hat No Cattle. Or Sizzle without Steak. Style before Substance.... I joke, yet there really isn't a competitive team identity.