I don't follow the free agents unless someone writes the up on BBI. And, I don't have a take on this except that somebody thinks it was a mistake. I guess we will see.
and probably a voice in why he wasn't re-signed elier with them. He knows more about his game than any fan. $110M on another Dt would have been huge, from the outside I trust him as an ideal source, I'm sure they looked into it.
Rosetti wasn't with the Dolphins last year, when Wilkins broke out. But it's a bit of a specific knock on a guy to get wrong. It's one thing to say he's not a premium player, but to focus in on 3rd and whiff is silly.
Rosetti wasn't with the Dolphins last year, when Wilkins broke out. But it's a bit of a specific knock on a guy to get wrong. It's one thing to say he's not a premium player, but to focus in on 3rd and whiff is silly.
Is it wrong though? He had 61 total pressures, 27 pressures on 3rd down last year. Here are his numbers for the rest of his career.
despite what a few posters insinuated, I thought Rosetti came off very well.
Hes also, in my opinion, has led one of the few departments in the Giants front office that has actually hit on players.
The pro personnel staff under Schoen and Rosetti have done a really good job finding pro players to add...arguably better than the draft picks -
Yeah, could have put more thought into the thread title - it is never good to get called out though. On the draft, the hope would be that some of the reason the draftees have not developed is the need for better coaching, and that the coaching turnover will imorove just put in thread title
Guys like McCloud, Pinnock, Cager etc. off the scrap heap in year one...Okereke in year 2...all good moves that are teed up by the pro personnel dept.
Its the draft guys that have to start hitting - hopefully their picks start rounding into form, but its still an unknown going into year 3.
Yeah, I could have spent more time on the thread title, but it is not good to be called out on multiple publications. As far as drafting goes, the hope would be that the coaching turnover will improve young player development.
Teams dont evaluate off just the last year. They evaluate the totality of the career and how they think that player fits into their roster. The Giants need FAR more help at the edge position. Its not prudent for them to spend BIG money at the DT position when they already have one of the BEST DTs in all of football.
despite what a few posters insinuated, I thought Rosetti came off very well.
Hes also, in my opinion, has led one of the few departments in the Giants front office that has actually hit on players.
The pro personnel staff under Schoen and Rosetti have done a really good job finding pro players to add...arguably better than the draft picks -
Guys like McCloud, Pinnock, Cager etc. off the scrap heap in year one...Okereke in year 2...all good moves that are teed up by the pro personnel dept.
Its the draft guys that have to start hitting - hopefully their picks start rounding into form, but its still an unknown going into year 3.
With the likes of McCloud, Pinnock and Cager, now we know why the Giants have been a scrap heap. Perhaps it's just been a bit better of a scrap heap than in previous years, that has some fans thinking mcclouded. 2024 will tell if they can rise above the scrap heap, known as about 26 of 32 NFL teams.
Wow our HardKnocks show is gonna tick off a lot of
Both were first round picks out of Clemson in the same year. I think they were generally regarded as twin tackles when they were drafted. Wilkins was drafted 13, Lawrence was 17th.
The numbers are comparable, but they played in different defenses and were asked to do different things. Remember Lawrence played out of position as a DE for a few seasons. When he was switched to NT, he became unstoppable.
It would be interesting to see Wilkins and Lawrence playing together but that might be a poor allocation of resources and cap space. Lawrence needs to be beside a complementary tackle - not a duplicate.
And look at in a year. Not cause of Rosetti - his opinion is well founded, right or wrong. Maybe Wilkins will blow up this season and proven him wrong, and that last season's underlying stats predictive. Or not.
Either way I feel a shit-ton better about Burns for $85 million guaranteed dollars than Wilkins for the same money.
Rosetti came across well, and actually was seemingly the only one in that entire room that predicted Barkley would get a lot of money, from a team that had money to spend.
Burns fits the profile they want more, and that's very understandable. This is a group who traded Leonard Williams and also drafted Thibs 5th overall. It very much seems like they want to create pressure from the edges.
I don't think judging IDLs on sack counts is very instructive. Lawrence didn't break out until his 4th year, Wilkins didn't until his 5th year and they both only have one season over 4.5 sacks.
My only point is Wilkins did in fact have a strong year on 3rd down, and Rosetti's assessment didn't seem to account for that.
Now, if it's a matter of consistency or fear he can't repeat the performance, that's probably a more important and better point.
Rate might be a better indicator of judging these types of players, anyway, rather than sacks or pure pressure count. But there's also double team rates, and scheme.
Thibodeaux had 11.5 sacks but his win rate was 6.4%. Aidan Hutchinson had the same number of sacks but his pressures dwarfed Kayvon's and his win rate was 21.3%.
I do hope Kayvon improves because the sack number never told the story. We have been down this road recently with Azeez Ojulari's rookie campaign and the Markus Golden season of 10 sacks. Advanced stats showed they lacked consistency - you just hope coaching and health allows the player to keep building and improving.
Rate might be a better indicator of judging these types of players, anyway, rather than sacks or pure pressure count. But there's also double team rates, and scheme.
Thibodeaux had 11.5 sacks but his win rate was 6.4%. Aidan Hutchinson had the same number of sacks but his pressures dwarfed Kayvon's and his win rate was 21.3%.
I do hope Kayvon improves because the sack number never told the story. We have been down this road recently with Azeez Ojulari's rookie campaign and the Markus Golden season of 10 sacks. Advanced stats showed they lacked consistency - you just hope coaching and health allows the player to keep building and improving.
Having someone on the other side will help..
Actually working with Patterson will help..
Working with Burns who has more time in the league should help...
those meetings going player by player were likely days long and 2-3-4 hour sessions. how do we know he didnt at some point before that 10 seconds say "wilkins had a big year this past year, but overall for his career he hasnt replicated that so it was probably statistically likely to continue".
rossetti's job description and information access isn't limited to looking up the most recent stats, he and a full team of people are watching/grading every rep.
i am a very big wilkins fans going back to that clemson team w/ dex and he has always been a complete player but not standout in any one area. he is a better version of tomlinson - who is also a very good player who has now made a lot of money playing well for a lot of good defenses but without impacting 3rd downs much.
I think having Jihad Ward opposite him and playing in Wink's scheme skews things a bit. We will get a real feel of what type of player he is, and can be, now.
those meetings going player by player were likely days long and 2-3-4 hour sessions. how do we know he didnt at some point before that 10 seconds say "wilkins had a big year this past year, but overall for his career he hasnt replicated that so it was probably statistically likely to continue".
We don't know that. All we know is what was shown and reported.
It's not some tragic oversight or credibility eroding POV. It's just a minor, silly mistake that someone pointed out.
In comment 16548601 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
For SI (I thought they were gone) focused on the Raiders say so? Whatever.
I think it's more that Wilkins had a good year on third down.
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As USA Today's Doug Farrar pointed out, Wilkins had 27 third-down pressures in 2023 -- tied for second in the NFL amongst interior linemen. Only Quinnen Williams (30) had more, as Wilkins was tied with Chris Jones and DeForest Buckner.
...
Wilkins had 5.5 sacks on third down in addition to those 27 pressures, a pressure rate of 19.0%. He was actually tied for seventh amongst defensive linemen who line up in a three-point stance in sacks on third down (5.5), Wilkins was third amongst interior linemen in pressure rate on third down (minimum 200 snaps), behind Aaron Donald (21.5%) and Quinnen Williams (19.9%).
those meetings going player by player were likely days long and 2-3-4 hour sessions. how do we know he didnt at some point before that 10 seconds say "wilkins had a big year this past year, but overall for his career he hasnt replicated that so it was probably statistically likely to continue".
We don't know that. All we know is what was shown and reported.
It's not some tragic oversight or credibility eroding POV. It's just a minor, silly mistake that someone pointed out.
it is not "reporting" that they had in depth conversations about top free agents nor should it be surprising that they discussed the pros/cons of those players. it would be reporting that if they didnt because it means they werent doing their jobs.
it's a condensed show intentionally made to be as compelling/provocative/interesting as possible. the job of the show/producers is to be as entertaining as possible, it is only their job to be accurate and nuanced to the extent that the team doesn't veto something.
beyond that his quote is basically the same as any scouting report on him since clemson.
Quote:
“This is Dexter’s best friend,” Rossetti said. “I don’t think he’s a difference-making pass rusher on third down, which is what we need opposite Dex.” He would go on to clarify, though, that he was still a very good football player.
the content of what he said is only a "mistake" if you know nothing of the player except a few cherry picked stats from last year. miami was the 3rd best pass rush team in the nfl which likely benefited wilkins statistically even though he wasn't close to their top individual pass rusher. of their main guys he actually had the lowest pressure rates/pass rush grades. forgetting chubb, phillips, van ginkel, ogbah even their other IDL actually had 1 more sack and 13 more pressures than he did.
the only new piece of information "reported" was that Dex' text to schoen indicates he may have been working things with Wilkins behind the scenes and that perhaps Wilkins was open to coming here. that was speculated about at the time but i dont recall seeing it specifically reported anywhere.
Simple yes or no question -- did Wilkins play well as a pass rusher on 3rd down last year?
nice try but that's not what rossetti said. reread the quote. the exact sound bite everyone is choosing to nitpick was "difference making pass rusher" and in the context of his position wilkins isn't and has never been on the level of someone like chris jones - who rossetti was correctly waxing poetic on in the same segment bc that is what an actual difference making pass rusher looks like.
statistically he hasnt even been all that close to the pass rusher leonard williams has been over the last half decade, and most of this board spent that half decade complaining that he was overpaid/overrated, often despite statistical production, bc he wasn't a "difference maker". in the last 5 seasons williams had 33 sacks to wilkins 24 and correspondingly almost 150% the number of pressures (242 to 167) and better win rates on true pass sets which are the better measure of pass rush ability.
I'm asking you a simple yes or no question, do you believe he was a good pass rusher on third down last year?
search any posts ive made about wilkins in the last 6+ years and you will see i have believed he is a very good player, pass rush included, going back to his time at clemson.
not sure what's so hard to understand about that coexisting with what rossetti said as both being pretty obvious statements of reality (and literally almost exactly what he said verbatim).
Quote:
“This is Dexter’s best friend,” Rossetti said. “I don’t think he’s a difference-making pass rusher on third down, which is what we need opposite Dex.” He would go on to clarify, though, that he was still a very good football player.
Eric -- I'm not sure how you or Rosetti define difference making. From my vantage point quarterback pressures and sacks are two good ways to measure pass rush effectiveness. I don't think those are cherry picked.
And when a player rates near the top of his position group at the two output counting stats, I'm very comfortable believing that is difference making.
For the 2023 season on its own, I think what Rosetti said is silly.
One good season in a contract year did not make Leonard Williams a difference maker on third down and it won't make Wilkins one either. If we were going to use that cap space on a good not great DT, we should have kept Williams instead.
And look at in a year. Not cause of Rosetti - his opinion is well founded, right or wrong. Maybe Wilkins will blow up this season and proven him wrong, and that last season's underlying stats predictive. Or not.
Either way I feel a shit-ton better about Burns for $85 million guaranteed dollars than Wilkins for the same money.
This. In college you might have two or three of these guys on you DL. Not possible to pay two DTs top dollar in the NFL. And we needed Burns and pressure from the ER position. And this is his position for the Giants and their needs. It that he’s not worth it or a bad player. People want to crest drama and clicks
Eric -- I'm not sure how you or Rosetti define difference making.
i think you are overcomplicating what is a simple descriptor. i view difference makers as the elite players like chris jones who do everything rossetti described chris jones as being able to do so from that i suppose he feels similarly. players whose presence is felt on the field every snap bc they command extra attention every play from the other team and still post elite production. aaron donald, dexter lawrence, chris jones. tyreek hill, justin jefferson, ceedee lamb, travis kelce, nick bosa, parsons, myles garrett etc.
they are the guys who almost always get extended early or franchise tagged and almost never hit unrestricted free agency in their primes because even if a team has cap troubles they have trade value.
i love brian burns - who got tagged unlike wilkins the cost more in both $ and picks - and id similarly consider him more 'next tier down' than parsons/bosa level difference maker, though if you specifically want "difference making 3rd down pass rush", that's his absolute best skill. wilkins biggest value is a high floor every down player.
that pays premium money for two DTs. The Giants just need a decent DT alongside DL.
It is unusual - but the Commanders do
I agree with other that acquiring Burns was definitely a better move than signing Wilkins. definitely a better move than signing Wilkins, though, if they could have somehow signed Chris Jones, that would’ve been my ideal.
Eric -- I'm not sure how you or Rosetti define difference making.
i think you are overcomplicating what is a simple descriptor.
You're too funny man. No charts, tables, or MS Paint drawings required in my world to determine a guy who tied for 2nd among IDLs in pressures on 3rd down, is in fact a difference making pass rusher on 3rd down.
Eric -- I'm not sure how you or Rosetti define difference making.
i think you are overcomplicating what is a simple descriptor.
You're too funny man. No charts, tables, or MS Paint drawings required in my world to determine a guy who tied for 2nd among IDLs in pressures on 3rd down, is in fact a difference making pass rusher on 3rd down.
what's too funny is this new commitment to 1 single season stat being absolutely determinative absent any context. id imagine that will last as long as the next argument where that methodology doesn't hold up...which will be whatever the next argument is.
Eric -- I'm not sure how you or Rosetti define difference making.
i think you are overcomplicating what is a simple descriptor.
You're too funny man. No charts, tables, or MS Paint drawings required in my world to determine a guy who tied for 2nd among IDLs in pressures on 3rd down, is in fact a difference making pass rusher on 3rd down.
what's too funny is this new commitment to 1 single season stat being absolutely determinative absent any context. id imagine that will last as long as the next argument where that methodology doesn't hold up...which will be whatever the next argument is.
And I look forward to you not using pressures or sacks as a way to judge pass rushers in the future, since according to you they are just a "few cherry picked stats."
what's too funny is this new commitment to 1 single season stat being absolutely determinative absent any context. id imagine that will last as long as the next argument where that methodology doesn't hold up...which will be whatever the next argument is.
And I look forward to you not using pressures or sacks as a way to judge pass rushers in the future, since according to you they are just a "few cherry picked stats."
and if daniel jones somehow repeats his 2022 i look forward to you considering him a top 6 QB just because 1 stat (QBR) says so.
sacks and pressures are a good way to judge pass rushers which is why ive used all of them in this very thread. there are even better stats like win rates on true pass sets which ive posted in this thread, though perhaps you missed those charts/screenshots because you only have eyes for the 1 stat from 1 season that you think proves a point despite a larger sample size of evidence indicating its misleading.
why do you suppose the same miami fo that's been with him his whole career, that rossetti used to be part of, didn't tag or tag/trade him if he's the difference maker you think your 1 stat says he is? i recall less than 6 months ago a half of a season of an older leonard williams brought back a 2nd round pick. was miami's FO incompetent or oblivious to the difference making pass rusher in their midst?
and a Fan Nation article where some up and coming schlub thought he could generate some traffic from what can be interpreted as a snub. It's sports muckraking, and it certainly doesn't deserve your attention let alone fucking statistical analysis.
I don't think he's a difference-making pass rusher on third down, which is what we need opposite Dex.
Last year on third down
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Wilkins had 27 third-down pressures in 2023 -- tied for second in the NFL amongst interior linemen. Only Quinnen Williams (30) had more, as Wilkins was tied with Chris Jones and DeForest Buckner.
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Wilkins had 5.5 sacks on third down in addition to those 27 pressures, a pressure rate of 19.0%. He was actually tied for seventh amongst defensive linemen who line up in a three-point stance in sacks on third down (5.5), Wilkins was third amongst interior linemen in pressure rate on third down (minimum 200 snaps), behind Aaron Donald (21.5%) and Quinnen Williams (19.9%).
This isn't a statistical analysis or a very complicated assessment. Rosetti's very direct observation wasn't true in 2023. Wilkins was pretty good on 3rd down pass rushes.
If we want to have a broader conversation on value, his holistic game, and why the Raiders deemed him payable and the Dolphins didn't -- I'm up for that.
But let's all at least settle on the simple fact Rosetti said something that wasn't true in 2023.
Eric on Li -- if Rosetti said Jones is not a good third down passer, but he was top 5 in yards and TDs on third down -- I would find that silly too.
Why did Williams net a 2nd round pick? Because the Giants paid all but the pro rated portion of his salary and Seattle got 10 games of his services.
Why did the Dolphins choose not to pay Wilkins and the Raiders did? I imagine Fewell projects him to play a similar role to Williams in 2020, and that he can get similar results in his 6th year.
Rosetti was also working for the Dolphins when they drafted Wilkins in 2019, so he's actually seen the guy in person a fair amount.
Is it wrong though? He had 61 total pressures, 27 pressures on 3rd down last year. Here are his numbers for the rest of his career.
2019 - 30 pressures & 2.0 sacks
2020 - 36 pressures & 1.5 sacks
2021 - 31 pressures & 4.5 sacks
2022 - 30 pressures & 3.5 sacks
How often do we see guys have monster years in their contract year get a massive payday and never come close to that 1 year again?
Hes also, in my opinion, has led one of the few departments in the Giants front office that has actually hit on players.
The pro personnel staff under Schoen and Rosetti have done a really good job finding pro players to add...arguably better than the draft picks -
Guys like McCloud, Pinnock, Cager etc. off the scrap heap in year one...Okereke in year 2...all good moves that are teed up by the pro personnel dept.
Its the draft guys that have to start hitting - hopefully their picks start rounding into form, but its still an unknown going into year 3.
Hes also, in my opinion, has led one of the few departments in the Giants front office that has actually hit on players.
The pro personnel staff under Schoen and Rosetti have done a really good job finding pro players to add...arguably better than the draft picks -
Yeah, could have put more thought into the thread title - it is never good to get called out though. On the draft, the hope would be that some of the reason the draftees have not developed is the need for better coaching, and that the coaching turnover will imorove just put in thread title
Guys like McCloud, Pinnock, Cager etc. off the scrap heap in year one...Okereke in year 2...all good moves that are teed up by the pro personnel dept.
Its the draft guys that have to start hitting - hopefully their picks start rounding into form, but its still an unknown going into year 3.
Yeah, I could have spent more time on the thread title, but it is not good to be called out on multiple publications. As far as drafting goes, the hope would be that the coaching turnover will improve young player development.
And, I agree - can't tie up but so much $ at DT.
So yeah.. Rosetti is going to be just fine..
Hes also, in my opinion, has led one of the few departments in the Giants front office that has actually hit on players.
The pro personnel staff under Schoen and Rosetti have done a really good job finding pro players to add...arguably better than the draft picks -
Guys like McCloud, Pinnock, Cager etc. off the scrap heap in year one...Okereke in year 2...all good moves that are teed up by the pro personnel dept.
Its the draft guys that have to start hitting - hopefully their picks start rounding into form, but its still an unknown going into year 3.
With the likes of McCloud, Pinnock and Cager, now we know why the Giants have been a scrap heap. Perhaps it's just been a bit better of a scrap heap than in previous years, that has some fans thinking mcclouded. 2024 will tell if they can rise above the scrap heap, known as about 26 of 32 NFL teams.
The numbers are comparable, but they played in different defenses and were asked to do different things. Remember Lawrence played out of position as a DE for a few seasons. When he was switched to NT, he became unstoppable.
It would be interesting to see Wilkins and Lawrence playing together but that might be a poor allocation of resources and cap space. Lawrence needs to be beside a complementary tackle - not a duplicate.
Either way I feel a shit-ton better about Burns for $85 million guaranteed dollars than Wilkins for the same money.
I don't think judging IDLs on sack counts is very instructive. Lawrence didn't break out until his 4th year, Wilkins didn't until his 5th year and they both only have one season over 4.5 sacks.
My only point is Wilkins did in fact have a strong year on 3rd down, and Rosetti's assessment didn't seem to account for that.
Now, if it's a matter of consistency or fear he can't repeat the performance, that's probably a more important and better point.
Thibodeaux had 11.5 sacks but his win rate was 6.4%. Aidan Hutchinson had the same number of sacks but his pressures dwarfed Kayvon's and his win rate was 21.3%.
I do hope Kayvon improves because the sack number never told the story. We have been down this road recently with Azeez Ojulari's rookie campaign and the Markus Golden season of 10 sacks. Advanced stats showed they lacked consistency - you just hope coaching and health allows the player to keep building and improving.
Thibodeaux had 11.5 sacks but his win rate was 6.4%. Aidan Hutchinson had the same number of sacks but his pressures dwarfed Kayvon's and his win rate was 21.3%.
I do hope Kayvon improves because the sack number never told the story. We have been down this road recently with Azeez Ojulari's rookie campaign and the Markus Golden season of 10 sacks. Advanced stats showed they lacked consistency - you just hope coaching and health allows the player to keep building and improving.
Having someone on the other side will help..
Actually working with Patterson will help..
Working with Burns who has more time in the league should help...
rossetti's job description and information access isn't limited to looking up the most recent stats, he and a full team of people are watching/grading every rep.
i am a very big wilkins fans going back to that clemson team w/ dex and he has always been a complete player but not standout in any one area. he is a better version of tomlinson - who is also a very good player who has now made a lot of money playing well for a lot of good defenses but without impacting 3rd downs much.
We don't know that. All we know is what was shown and reported.
It's not some tragic oversight or credibility eroding POV. It's just a minor, silly mistake that someone pointed out.
I think it's more that Wilkins had a good year on third down.
...
Wilkins had 5.5 sacks on third down in addition to those 27 pressures, a pressure rate of 19.0%. He was actually tied for seventh amongst defensive linemen who line up in a three-point stance in sacks on third down (5.5), Wilkins was third amongst interior linemen in pressure rate on third down (minimum 200 snaps), behind Aaron Donald (21.5%) and Quinnen Williams (19.9%).
Quote:
those meetings going player by player were likely days long and 2-3-4 hour sessions. how do we know he didnt at some point before that 10 seconds say "wilkins had a big year this past year, but overall for his career he hasnt replicated that so it was probably statistically likely to continue".
We don't know that. All we know is what was shown and reported.
It's not some tragic oversight or credibility eroding POV. It's just a minor, silly mistake that someone pointed out.
it is not "reporting" that they had in depth conversations about top free agents nor should it be surprising that they discussed the pros/cons of those players. it would be reporting that if they didnt because it means they werent doing their jobs.
it's a condensed show intentionally made to be as compelling/provocative/interesting as possible. the job of the show/producers is to be as entertaining as possible, it is only their job to be accurate and nuanced to the extent that the team doesn't veto something.
beyond that his quote is basically the same as any scouting report on him since clemson.
the content of what he said is only a "mistake" if you know nothing of the player except a few cherry picked stats from last year. miami was the 3rd best pass rush team in the nfl which likely benefited wilkins statistically even though he wasn't close to their top individual pass rusher. of their main guys he actually had the lowest pressure rates/pass rush grades. forgetting chubb, phillips, van ginkel, ogbah even their other IDL actually had 1 more sack and 13 more pressures than he did.
the only new piece of information "reported" was that Dex' text to schoen indicates he may have been working things with Wilkins behind the scenes and that perhaps Wilkins was open to coming here. that was speculated about at the time but i dont recall seeing it specifically reported anywhere.
nice try but that's not what rossetti said. reread the quote. the exact sound bite everyone is choosing to nitpick was "difference making pass rusher" and in the context of his position wilkins isn't and has never been on the level of someone like chris jones - who rossetti was correctly waxing poetic on in the same segment bc that is what an actual difference making pass rusher looks like.
statistically he hasnt even been all that close to the pass rusher leonard williams has been over the last half decade, and most of this board spent that half decade complaining that he was overpaid/overrated, often despite statistical production, bc he wasn't a "difference maker". in the last 5 seasons williams had 33 sacks to wilkins 24 and correspondingly almost 150% the number of pressures (242 to 167) and better win rates on true pass sets which are the better measure of pass rush ability.
Still think the Giants need an impact DT/5T player. Perhaps a surprise on the roster or they address it next draft.
Keep adding impact front 7 players. Good DC's will find a way to use them.
search any posts ive made about wilkins in the last 6+ years and you will see i have believed he is a very good player, pass rush included, going back to his time at clemson.
not sure what's so hard to understand about that coexisting with what rossetti said as both being pretty obvious statements of reality (and literally almost exactly what he said verbatim).
And when a player rates near the top of his position group at the two output counting stats, I'm very comfortable believing that is difference making.
For the 2023 season on its own, I think what Rosetti said is silly.
Either way I feel a shit-ton better about Burns for $85 million guaranteed dollars than Wilkins for the same money.
This. In college you might have two or three of these guys on you DL. Not possible to pay two DTs top dollar in the NFL. And we needed Burns and pressure from the ER position. And this is his position for the Giants and their needs. It that he’s not worth it or a bad player. People want to crest drama and clicks
i think you are overcomplicating what is a simple descriptor. i view difference makers as the elite players like chris jones who do everything rossetti described chris jones as being able to do so from that i suppose he feels similarly. players whose presence is felt on the field every snap bc they command extra attention every play from the other team and still post elite production. aaron donald, dexter lawrence, chris jones. tyreek hill, justin jefferson, ceedee lamb, travis kelce, nick bosa, parsons, myles garrett etc.
they are the guys who almost always get extended early or franchise tagged and almost never hit unrestricted free agency in their primes because even if a team has cap troubles they have trade value.
i love brian burns - who got tagged unlike wilkins the cost more in both $ and picks - and id similarly consider him more 'next tier down' than parsons/bosa level difference maker, though if you specifically want "difference making 3rd down pass rush", that's his absolute best skill. wilkins biggest value is a high floor every down player.
It is unusual - but the Commanders do
I agree with other that acquiring Burns was definitely a better move than signing Wilkins. definitely a better move than signing Wilkins, though, if they could have somehow signed Chris Jones, that would’ve been my ideal.
Still think the Giants need an impact DT/5T player. Perhaps a surprise on the roster or they address it next draft.
Keep adding impact front 7 players. Good DC's will find a way to use them.
Basham and Anderson are hopeful 5T surprises.
i think you are overcomplicating what is a simple descriptor.
You're too funny man. No charts, tables, or MS Paint drawings required in my world to determine a guy who tied for 2nd among IDLs in pressures on 3rd down, is in fact a difference making pass rusher on 3rd down.
Quote:
Eric -- I'm not sure how you or Rosetti define difference making.
i think you are overcomplicating what is a simple descriptor.
You're too funny man. No charts, tables, or MS Paint drawings required in my world to determine a guy who tied for 2nd among IDLs in pressures on 3rd down, is in fact a difference making pass rusher on 3rd down.
what's too funny is this new commitment to 1 single season stat being absolutely determinative absent any context. id imagine that will last as long as the next argument where that methodology doesn't hold up...which will be whatever the next argument is.
i think you are overcomplicating what is a simple descriptor.
You're too funny man. No charts, tables, or MS Paint drawings required in my world to determine a guy who tied for 2nd among IDLs in pressures on 3rd down, is in fact a difference making pass rusher on 3rd down.
what's too funny is this new commitment to 1 single season stat being absolutely determinative absent any context. id imagine that will last as long as the next argument where that methodology doesn't hold up...which will be whatever the next argument is.
And I look forward to you not using pressures or sacks as a way to judge pass rushers in the future, since according to you they are just a "few cherry picked stats."
what's too funny is this new commitment to 1 single season stat being absolutely determinative absent any context. id imagine that will last as long as the next argument where that methodology doesn't hold up...which will be whatever the next argument is.
And I look forward to you not using pressures or sacks as a way to judge pass rushers in the future, since according to you they are just a "few cherry picked stats."
and if daniel jones somehow repeats his 2022 i look forward to you considering him a top 6 QB just because 1 stat (QBR) says so.
sacks and pressures are a good way to judge pass rushers which is why ive used all of them in this very thread. there are even better stats like win rates on true pass sets which ive posted in this thread, though perhaps you missed those charts/screenshots because you only have eyes for the 1 stat from 1 season that you think proves a point despite a larger sample size of evidence indicating its misleading.
why do you suppose the same miami fo that's been with him his whole career, that rossetti used to be part of, didn't tag or tag/trade him if he's the difference maker you think your 1 stat says he is? i recall less than 6 months ago a half of a season of an older leonard williams brought back a 2nd round pick. was miami's FO incompetent or oblivious to the difference making pass rusher in their midst?
Last year on third down
This isn't a statistical analysis or a very complicated assessment. Rosetti's very direct observation wasn't true in 2023. Wilkins was pretty good on 3rd down pass rushes.
If we want to have a broader conversation on value, his holistic game, and why the Raiders deemed him payable and the Dolphins didn't -- I'm up for that.
But let's all at least settle on the simple fact Rosetti said something that wasn't true in 2023.
Why did Williams net a 2nd round pick? Because the Giants paid all but the pro rated portion of his salary and Seattle got 10 games of his services.
Why did the Dolphins choose not to pay Wilkins and the Raiders did? I imagine Fewell projects him to play a similar role to Williams in 2020, and that he can get similar results in his 6th year.