I'm impressed you've posted a trillion times on this thread and showcased your third grade drawing skills and offered virtually no opinions or data on Wilkins as a third down pass rusher, the topic of which we're debating.
Why do I get the feeling one of us is laughing, and the other is might need a walk?
is the one who got so triggered by this quote he found a new career as a cirque du soleil contortionist.
Quote:
“This is Dexter’s best friend,” Rossetti said. “I don’t think he’s a difference-making pass rusher on third down, which is what we need opposite Dex.” He would go on to clarify, though, that he was still a very good football player.
It's day three, let's try this again. In my best not triggered voice:
Hey Eric on Li -- can you provide evidence that indicates Christian Wilkins is not a good pass rusher on 3rd down?
Is that un-contorted enough for you my complex friend?
not really because you contorted the word rossetti actually used "difference making" to merely "good", a lower bar than rossetti's own qualifier that christian wilkins is not just good but "very good".
we can get this to day 4 if you carry on true to form by twisting the argument into a meditation on what truly defines a "difference maker" like it's not a pretty plainly understood concept.
Did we decide if Wilkens is a good pass rusher on third down?
I'll go first -- to get a sense if a player was a very good pass rusher on 3rd down, I would start by looking at how many sacks, pressures, and the percentage of snaps he applied pressure on 3rd down. And where that ranked against other players at the position.
Ah see we're getting somewhere! So difference maker = very good. Excellent.
So now Eric on Li, what are some discreet criteria you would use to determine a player was a very good pass rusher on third down?
apparently we arent getting anywhere because you cant seem to comprehend the word rossetti used was "difference maker", not good or very good. rossetti said Christian Wilkins is very good but not a difference maker.
my definition of "difference maker" would be exactly how he described chris jones.
RE: Did we decide if Wilkens is a good pass rusher on third down?
OK Eric on Li, let's try this way: name an IDL you believe is a difference-making pass rusher.
What are the criteria you would use to determine that distinction?
maybe instead of counting all my posts/charts you should try reading a few of them. i've mentioned numerous times the same example rossetti described (quote and clip linked below).
Quote:
“We watch the tape. You see Chris Jones getting double-teamed every snap, and then the guy on the other side just has one block. You just imagine that’s Dex with one guy on them every time.” said Rossetti. “The possibilities and the game-wrecking capabilities are there.”
you may also remember seeing chris jones name at the top of all the pff screenshots ive been posted with more sacks, pressures, and higher pressure rate thank wilkins because all his production came in almost 100 fewer pass rush snaps. he has more sacks in the last 2 seasons than wilkins has in his full 5. if you include Wilkins clemson sacks he has a grand total 36 since 2015 between both NFL/CFB. Chris Jones has more than twice as many with 75.5 in the NFL only since 2016.
does it really take 3 days to get to the reality that it's fair to have the opinion that there's a big difference between an obvious difference maker like chris jones and a still very good player like christian wilkins? it's only the same conclusion the dolphins came to in letting wilkins walk. The Giants going over #Chiefs DT Chris Jones ahead of free agency on Hard Knocks - ( New Window )
And just as a good gesture, I apologize for mixing up the Rosetti criterias. It does appear it goes Very Good -> Difference Making.
And it also appears 3rd down is a uniquely important situation, as he called it out specifically.
So I'll start -- I think a difference-making pass rusher on 3rd down is someone who ranks among the top players at his position in sacks, pressures, and pressure percentage.
Eric I've read all of your posts. I agree, overall Jones is a better player than Wilkins.
Now let's talk about 3rd down, the situation Rosetti called out specifically.
How did Jones's 3rd down numbers compare to Wilkins?
how many times do i have to tell you i havent seen any public database of 3rd down numbers? if you have anything beyond the flimsy small sample data point this clickbait is based on feel free to share but i im 99.9999% sure there's no data point that will show anything other than a vast difference between jones/wilkins because anyone who has ever watched the 2 players play for more than 5 minutes there's a vast difference between jones/wilkins.
here's a new screenshot for you im not as familiar with espn's methodology but they too show a pretty wide difference between jones/wilkins even in wilkins career season.
talking about an overpaid DT and what the definition of "is" is.
Good player, no doubt. Better than average DT, no doubt. Were the Giants ever interested in spending another huge sum for a lesser talent than DexLaw? No. They spent their money on the correct player/position in Burns. Now go find a competent DT that can hold or collapse the middle. Plenty of those(enough anyway) available and Jordon Riley might be that guy.
talking about an overpaid DT and what the definition of "is" is.
Good player, no doubt. Better than average DT, no doubt. Were the Giants ever interested in spending another huge sum for a lesser talent than DexLaw? No. They spent their money on the correct player/position in Burns. Now go find a competent DT that can hold or collapse the middle. Plenty of those(enough anyway) available and Jordon Riley might be that guy.
Jordan Phillips is that guy. Enormous twinkle toed space eater. Greg Cosell said don't sleep on him. He was a top DT in his draft class (behind Leonard Willians) -- projected to start immediately with unlimited upside. The concern was, while dominant at times, he disappeared the rest of the time. Seems like that continued at this level.
Worst case he's a proven JAG DT whose taken nearly half the snaps on the 3 defenses he's played in to date. It's easy to see why the Giants signed him -- straight up he plugs the Williams hole (literally) with a lesser but athletically gifted (and much larger) rotation player. And while likely is what he is after 7 years in the league, he could surprise playing next to Dex and with Burns and Thibs.
Hree's the post-draft review:
The Dolphins hit it out of the park with their first two picks, while defensive tackle might not have been a ‘need’ position, adding Jordan Phillips gives them a chance to have a dominating front four to challenge any in the league. Phillips is a raw prospect, a true one technique who will command double teams in the run game due to his size, which might not be possible for opponents to manage with Ndamukong Suh and Cameron Wake also on the line. Phillips biggest strength is against the run where he had a 9.0 run stop percentage against Power 5 teams, the fifth-best mark among defensive tackles in this year's draft.
Depth Chart Fit: As a rotational defensive tackle splitting time with Earl Mitchell, but Phillips has the talent to overtake Mitchell by the end of the season, especially on rushing downs.
Phillips is an intersting point since pass rush is his best thing
or at least his most statistically appealing one. on true pass sets his numbers compare reasonably similar to wilkins (9.2% win rate vs 11.1%). so if nyg were looking to fill a role of 200 obvious pass rush snaps next year and wiklins had another career year, the difference could have been as low as 4 fewer "wins" (and correspondingly pressures) agains the guy blocking him. and that's not even a guarantee bc in 2022 phillips actually had the slightly higher 8.4% win rate vs wilkins 8.2%.
phillips is obviously older, not as durable, and not nearly the player wilkins is vs the run. probably the only way he measures up is that so far per pass rush down he's held up to be similarly productive. it seems like pretty savvy ROI to have been able to add him as a role player + burns for the same $ as wilkins if improving pass rush is the main goal. the downside is the run D if they cant find a good DL to rotate early down. or if he cant make it through the season effectively due to age/durability.
Funnily, Wilkins was the next DT after Phillips the Dolphins spent a high pick on.
The HK clip was nice TV with the Dex/Wilkins angle, but I doubt the Giants seriously considered Wilkins or another big dollar DT. The need was always edge -- our 4-man rush was feeble with Dex + Big Cat.
Why do I get the feeling one of us is laughing, and the other is might need a walk?
Hey Eric on Li -- can you provide evidence that indicates Christian Wilkins is not a good pass rusher on 3rd down?
Is that un-contorted enough for you my complex friend?
Hey Eric on Li -- can you provide evidence that indicates Christian Wilkins is not a good pass rusher on 3rd down?
Is that un-contorted enough for you my complex friend?
not really because you contorted the word rossetti actually used "difference making" to merely "good", a lower bar than rossetti's own qualifier that christian wilkins is not just good but "very good".
we can get this to day 4 if you carry on true to form by twisting the argument into a meditation on what truly defines a "difference maker" like it's not a pretty plainly understood concept.
So now Eric on Li, what are some discreet criteria you would use to determine a player was a very good pass rusher on third down?
What other things would you look at?
So now Eric on Li, what are some discreet criteria you would use to determine a player was a very good pass rusher on third down?
apparently we arent getting anywhere because you cant seem to comprehend the word rossetti used was "difference maker", not good or very good. rossetti said Christian Wilkins is very good but not a difference maker.
my definition of "difference maker" would be exactly how he described chris jones.
What are the criteria you would use to determine that distinction?
Don't want to be accused of circus stuff.
What are the criteria you would use to determine that distinction?
maybe instead of counting all my posts/charts you should try reading a few of them. i've mentioned numerous times the same example rossetti described (quote and clip linked below).
you may also remember seeing chris jones name at the top of all the pff screenshots ive been posted with more sacks, pressures, and higher pressure rate thank wilkins because all his production came in almost 100 fewer pass rush snaps. he has more sacks in the last 2 seasons than wilkins has in his full 5. if you include Wilkins clemson sacks he has a grand total 36 since 2015 between both NFL/CFB. Chris Jones has more than twice as many with 75.5 in the NFL only since 2016.
does it really take 3 days to get to the reality that it's fair to have the opinion that there's a big difference between an obvious difference maker like chris jones and a still very good player like christian wilkins? it's only the same conclusion the dolphins came to in letting wilkins walk.
The Giants going over #Chiefs DT Chris Jones ahead of free agency on Hard Knocks - ( New Window )
And it also appears 3rd down is a uniquely important situation, as he called it out specifically.
So I'll start -- I think a difference-making pass rusher on 3rd down is someone who ranks among the top players at his position in sacks, pressures, and pressure percentage.
Now let's talk about 3rd down, the situation Rosetti called out specifically.
How did Jones's 3rd down numbers compare to Wilkins?
Now let's talk about 3rd down, the situation Rosetti called out specifically.
How did Jones's 3rd down numbers compare to Wilkins?
how many times do i have to tell you i havent seen any public database of 3rd down numbers? if you have anything beyond the flimsy small sample data point this clickbait is based on feel free to share but i im 99.9999% sure there's no data point that will show anything other than a vast difference between jones/wilkins because anyone who has ever watched the 2 players play for more than 5 minutes there's a vast difference between jones/wilkins.
here's a new screenshot for you im not as familiar with espn's methodology but they too show a pretty wide difference between jones/wilkins even in wilkins career season.
just throwing an idea out there do with it what you will, a christian vs eric on li ras card?
Quote:
just throwing an idea out there do with it what you will, a christian vs eric on li ras card?
You think too much of me, kid. I'm not that clever.
Good player, no doubt. Better than average DT, no doubt. Were the Giants ever interested in spending another huge sum for a lesser talent than DexLaw? No. They spent their money on the correct player/position in Burns. Now go find a competent DT that can hold or collapse the middle. Plenty of those(enough anyway) available and Jordon Riley might be that guy.
Good player, no doubt. Better than average DT, no doubt. Were the Giants ever interested in spending another huge sum for a lesser talent than DexLaw? No. They spent their money on the correct player/position in Burns. Now go find a competent DT that can hold or collapse the middle. Plenty of those(enough anyway) available and Jordon Riley might be that guy.
Jordan Phillips is that guy. Enormous twinkle toed space eater. Greg Cosell said don't sleep on him. He was a top DT in his draft class (behind Leonard Willians) -- projected to start immediately with unlimited upside. The concern was, while dominant at times, he disappeared the rest of the time. Seems like that continued at this level.
Worst case he's a proven JAG DT whose taken nearly half the snaps on the 3 defenses he's played in to date. It's easy to see why the Giants signed him -- straight up he plugs the Williams hole (literally) with a lesser but athletically gifted (and much larger) rotation player. And while likely is what he is after 7 years in the league, he could surprise playing next to Dex and with Burns and Thibs.
Hree's the post-draft review:
The Dolphins hit it out of the park with their first two picks, while defensive tackle might not have been a ‘need’ position, adding Jordan Phillips gives them a chance to have a dominating front four to challenge any in the league. Phillips is a raw prospect, a true one technique who will command double teams in the run game due to his size, which might not be possible for opponents to manage with Ndamukong Suh and Cameron Wake also on the line. Phillips biggest strength is against the run where he had a 9.0 run stop percentage against Power 5 teams, the fifth-best mark among defensive tackles in this year's draft.
Depth Chart Fit: As a rotational defensive tackle splitting time with Earl Mitchell, but Phillips has the talent to overtake Mitchell by the end of the season, especially on rushing downs.
phillips is obviously older, not as durable, and not nearly the player wilkins is vs the run. probably the only way he measures up is that so far per pass rush down he's held up to be similarly productive. it seems like pretty savvy ROI to have been able to add him as a role player + burns for the same $ as wilkins if improving pass rush is the main goal. the downside is the run D if they cant find a good DL to rotate early down. or if he cant make it through the season effectively due to age/durability.
The HK clip was nice TV with the Dex/Wilkins angle, but I doubt the Giants seriously considered Wilkins or another big dollar DT. The need was always edge -- our 4-man rush was feeble with Dex + Big Cat.