(1) When he was first hired by the Giants, and we had a chance to see/hear his first few press conferences, I think just about everyone felt he was such a breath of fresh air after Dave Gettleman.
(2) He was (and still is) much more polished in front of the camera/press and just seems to have a better overall grasp of the modern-day job/task of an NFL GM in all its myriad complexities.
(3) He also just seems to fit in much better with his fellow GMs -- he seems to know more of them; he seems to get along with more of them; he seems to be in contact with them more often; and he certainly looks like more of them in terms of age and overall hip, cool, prepped-out appearance.
(4) He also seems to be out on the road more often than Dave Gettleman attending/scouting numerous college football games.
(5) And my guess is that Joe Schoen has implemented several internal organizational changes that represent an improvement over Dave Gettleman's regime.
(6) And on top of all that, his team somehow, someway actually made the playoffs in his first term as GM when everyone knew he had taken on a mega re-building project. All of which served to only enhance all his positive attributes that were on full display.
(7) But after his second season, all of the above now seems like a precious vase that lies shattered on the floor. And whether or not Joe Schoen succeeds in changing the trajectory of this franchise is anyone's guess.
We don't know much about what happens behind the curtain. (Even with Hard Knocks). However from the outside it seems like the key decisions that have been made were sound, and made sense at the time they were made. Not everything works out.
As we know.....the NFL is not fair, last year's team might have been more talented than 2022....Injuries, a tougher schedule and horrible OL play....and the team was just not ready.....which has more to do with Daboll in 23.
As "on paper" means little.....we need to wait....but this team is better on paper.
Let's hope the coaches play nicer in the sand box.....and Injuries do not dismantle any area.
8 If Technology matter.....the Giants have modernized their site.
And he has several executives working under him.....that is fair to say the braintrust is top notch.
We watch other young inexperienced hot shot GMs and Head Coaches win.
Last year would’ve been written off as a lost year due to ridiculous injury, but there’s no appetite for that. It happened at a bad time. All these guys either prove their meddle this year or turn into pumpkins.
Bottom line is, dealt with a ton of injuries and battled to 6 wins.
The team is much better than what the record showed IMO.
You’d have a point if the team was 5-1 when they lost the QB for the season. They weren’t. They were 1-5. That season went off the rails long before Jones got injured. People aren’t “overreacting”. They are simply “reacting” to what we seen on the field
Bottom line is, dealt with a ton of injuries and battled to 6 wins.
The team is much better than what the record showed IMO.
The unbelievable number of injuries last season made it virtually impossible to rate the team. They rolled out what was likely the worst O line the NFL has ever seen for a couple of games. And while they were a handful of plays from picking one or two in the draft, they were also just a few plays from winning 9 games, which would have been incredible based on the situation. Not only that, they beat Philly once and came close in the other game. Compare that to the playoff loss a year earlier.
Bottom line is, dealt with a ton of injuries and battled to 6 wins.
The team is much better than what the record showed IMO.
Assuming Jones would have beaten the Jets and Bills is disingenuous, at best. The reason they were in those games was because of the insanely conservative game plans while playing back up QBs. Unless you somehow believe Daboll would have refused to allow Jones to throw the he ball against the Jets, you’d have to assume they’d have been more aggressive with their $40M investment which very likely would have led to a bunch of sacks and turnovers that they didn’t suffer while running the ball on every damn play. I’m not saying DeVito or Taylor are better than Jones so don’t get your panties in a bunch but it’s very likely those two games would have had much larger spreads had Jones played. Those teams would have feasted on that pass protection.
None of that means that he’ll be successful, but at least he’s being allowed to do the job he was hired to do.
Not keeping ONE of Love/Mckinney and then using a premium pick to backfill two homegrown talents - this was a huge waste (whole point of letting Love walk is we have Mckinney)
Has not solved CB2 (another slot guy drafted but those boundary corners were there for the Burns pick)
Paid Jones too much
Evan Neal has not paid off, nor has Ezedu, Mckethan or JMS (although too early) OL needed all the FA money aside from Burns
Not super happy with him, he better fuckin win this year.
As we know.....the NFL is not fair, last year's team might have been more talented than 2022....Injuries, a tougher schedule and horrible OL play....and the team was just not ready.....which has more to do with Daboll in 23.
As "on paper" means little.....we need to wait....but this team is better on paper.
Let's hope the coaches play nicer in the sand box.....and Injuries do not dismantle any area.
8 If Technology matter.....the Giants have modernized their site.
And he has several executives working under him.....that is fair to say the braintrust is top notch.
More than a bit hyperbolic.
Presumably like most of BBI, OP expected 8-10 wins last season. Rarely do so many thing go so wrong as with the '23 Giants, and it's likely the OL they were forced to trot out (because of bad planning and bad luck; maybe we'll also eventually find out it was bad drafting too) was literally the worst in NFL history. Yet they finished 2-4 wins behind projected.
Nothing about '23 invalidates the Schoen plan. As noted in HK, it's his team now. Last year was a mulligan; if things go totally pear-shaped again, he may not get another.
I use the linked New Yorker cartoon in speaking engagements to illustrate the point. Tactical setbacks are inevitable; executive's job is to keep perspective (and ensure their entire organization does) while course correcting as necessary.
Success is rarely linear - ( New Window )
Not trading Saquon, now he walks to our rival -
If they traded Saquon at that moment - it would have been demoralizing to the rest of the team. Giving up. What do you think they could have gotten for him at that point with the new team needing to pay him?
Not keeping ONE of Love/Mckinney and then using a premium pick to backfill two homegrown talents - this was a huge waste (whole point of letting Love walk is we have Mckinney)
Love was a bad decision in hindsight, but the money used it pay Slayton (is that right? which was good)
I liked Love and they apparently offered him similar/more than got with Seattle? Every negotiation effects the next one. You can't cave to a guy like Love.
McKinney is a very good player being played like an elite one. I agree with the decision to spend the money elsewhere and using the draft pick to replace him.
Has not solved CB2 (another slot guy drafted but those boundary corners were there for the Burns pick)
Getting an elite pass rusher is a no-brainer IMO.
There are still good vet CBs about there, but rolling with the young talent is a plan I can get behind.
Paid Jones too much -
yup
Even at the time I thought so, but they thought they could lose him and that was untenable at that moment.
Evan Neal has not paid off, nor has Ezedu, Mckethan or JMS (although too early) OL needed all the FA money aside from Burns.
Yup. But Neal was the right pick at the time.
The others...seems like a good point of criticism right now.
We don't know much about what happens behind the curtain. (Even with Hard Knocks). However from the outside it seems like the key decisions that have been made were sound, and made sense at the time they were made. Not everything works out.
I honestly don't know if they are going in the right direction. I want to believe they are. But not sure. I'm fairly neutral about their current speed of "progress."
As we know.....the NFL is not fair, last year's team might have been more talented than 2022....Injuries, a tougher schedule and horrible OL play....and the team was just not ready.....which has more to do with Daboll in 23.
As "on paper" means little.....we need to wait....but this team is better on paper.
Let's hope the coaches play nicer in the sand box.....and Injuries do not dismantle any area.
8 If Technology matter.....the Giants have modernized their site.
And he has several executives working under him.....that is fair to say the braintrust is top notch.
I'll be the first too admit that the shattered vase analogy could be unfair / too strong. But I'm afraid that doens't change my confusion as to whether or not Joe Schoen can/will right this boat.
This is his 3rd offseason
No doubt they were devastating and make it very hard to assess that team, but I seem to recall that when Joe Schoen was hired, he clearly placed the Giants "injury bug" on the table as something he was going to attack head on. I'm not going to ding our GM for that. But I'm still left with an unclear view as to whether or not he will achieve the sort of success that can be built upon and sustained.
I am clueless.
No doubt they were devastating and make it very hard to assess that team, but I seem to recall that when Joe Schoen was hired, he clearly placed the Giants "injury bug" on the table as something he was going to attack head on. I'm not going to ding our GM for that. But I'm still left with an unclear view as to whether or not he will achieve the sort of success that can be built upon and sustained.
I am clueless.
Every GM we’ve hired has said that about the injuries. And many other GMs around the league as well. It’s not in their control as we, above maybe any fan base, know.
And that you don’t have a clear view is just what you should expect given where Schoen started. We haven’t seen year three yet. I think we’re just approaching average. Just what we should expect.
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Or just not fast enough in the right direction?
We don't know much about what happens behind the curtain. (Even with Hard Knocks). However from the outside it seems like the key decisions that have been made were sound, and made sense at the time they were made. Not everything works out.
I honestly don't know if they are going in the right direction. I want to believe they are. But not sure. I'm fairly neutral about their current speed of "progress."
Sorry about that -- to answer your question directly, I don't believe Joe Schoen is taking the Giants in the wrong direction.
That said, whether he's spinning his wheels in neutral or going decidely forward is IMO the great unknown.
The bigger question right now is the success of the players they invested draft capital in. There are some nice players, and a few hits, but they've had a lot of "at-bats" in the draft, and right now not enough of those guys are difference makers.
If its another year where we are waiting for year 2-3 guys to break out, I think it will be fair to question this team from a scouting & talent evaluation standpoint - (which is weird considering that is Schoen's background).
The trades, free agency, waiver pickups, contract management etc. have all been lightyears better under this regime. They NEED to start hitting on picks.
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No doubt they were devastating and make it very hard to assess that team, but I seem to recall that when Joe Schoen was hired, he clearly placed the Giants "injury bug" on the table as something he was going to attack head on. I'm not going to ding our GM for that. But I'm still left with an unclear view as to whether or not he will achieve the sort of success that can be built upon and sustained.
I am clueless.
Every GM we’ve hired has said that about the injuries. And many other GMs around the league as well. It’s not in their control as we, above maybe any fan base, know.
And that you don’t have a clear view is just what you should expect given where Schoen started. We haven’t seen year three yet. I think we’re just approaching average. Just what we should expect.
Year 3 will be very interesting. Maybe above all else, I am hoping a few questions get answered such as "x" number of young players stepping forward (up to the next level) and a coaching staff that consistently prepares their players for each and every game (win or lose.) Would love to hear -- at the end of the season -- that most of our opponents said the Giants were a very tough out. (Of course, winning would also be nice!)
The bigger question right now is the success of the players they invested draft capital in. There are some nice players, and a few hits, but they've had a lot of "at-bats" in the draft, and right now not enough of those guys are difference makers.
If its another year where we are waiting for year 2-3 guys to break out, I think it will be fair to question this team from a scouting & talent evaluation standpoint - (which is weird considering that is Schoen's background).
The trades, free agency, waiver pickups, contract management etc. have all been lightyears better under this regime. They NEED to start hitting on picks.
I think you are dead-on about hitting on Draft Picks. Just about everything else pales in comparison.
They overachieved in 2022. Instead of continuing to build little by little.. they tried to push the envelope and it backfired..
Now they have to reset a bit..
What " fans " I believe by and large have missed is just how utterly broken this organization was from the top down..
Behind on technology (when Schoen arrived they were still using magnet boards in the draft room to move players around on the board) ,
Information gathering ( we ALL know they were woefully behind in analytics)
Training (Tiki Barber said when he was drafted by the Giants they didnt even have Ice tubs). Now they are using different data to help monitor players in an effort to improve player health and HOPEFULLY help cut down injury.
Scouting was antiquated and behind the times. Too many old heads in position. They had to revamp the entire scouting department after Schoen's first draft..
All of this is some of the things Schoen was brought in to access and deal with.. Its not JUST the wins and losses.. but the hope is that fixing these issues will lead to a continously competitive organization like Ravens, Steelers, Chiefs, Eagles, Bills, Dallas.. teams that are at the very least are in the hunt every year.
Aside from Okreke, what impact players has he added? Have the drafts been anything other than average so far?
Add in the tripling down on Jones, and what looks like a hideous contract, and you have a very underwhelming performance so far from our stylish looking GM.
What's a bigger problem for this franchise right now? Jones? Schoen? Or both?
Aside from Okreke, what impact players has he added? Have the drafts been anything other than average so far?
Add in the tripling down on Jones, and what looks like a hideous contract, and you have a very underwhelming performance so far from our stylish looking GM.
What's a bigger problem for this franchise right now? Jones? Schoen? Or both?
daboll isnt here without him so that's where his credit starts. i think more highly of daboll so far than schoen too, though i think schoen is generally competent. he's just hit a lot more singles than homers to this point.
He had a successful season 1, but unfortunately didn't follow it up with a successful year 2. There were mistakes made, some obvious, some a little harder to notice, but there are signs that he learns from him.
This post season very much feels like there is a plan towards building a specific type of team, we never had this with Gettleman. He values pass rush on defense and speed on offense, we're clearly moving towards being a pass first team vs run first.
One last thing I'll add in, after 2022 I still think he got pressure from ownership to push a "win now" agenda. I've mentioned it before and haven't changed my stance, Mara is what I'd refer to as a "passive aggressive meddler", just look at his comments about Barkley on Hard Knocks. Even after Schoen told him he wouldn't be on the team Mara just had to mumble "Gee, I'd really like to keep him...".
I'm starting to think that Schoen is learning to take Mara's comments with a grain of salt which is good. I'm hopeful for this season though I still think Jones holds us back.
It is going into year three, so a little early to draw any definitive conclusions, but to me the jury is still out. The Oline is still a question mark, largely because of a possible top-10 bust. He let the best player on the team walk for no compensation at all, and he whiffed badly on the QB decision and as of yet has nothing in place to resolve it.
I would say so far I lean towards disappointment in Schoen, but we need to start seeing some fruit blossom from his decisions sooner rather than later.
The OL and RB have to play at an average level at least. Okereke has been his best pickup.
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In comment 16549624 M.S. said:
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No doubt they were devastating and make it very hard to assess that team, but I seem to recall that when Joe Schoen was hired, he clearly placed the Giants "injury bug" on the table as something he was going to attack head on. I'm not going to ding our GM for that. But I'm still left with an unclear view as to whether or not he will achieve the sort of success that can be built upon and sustained.
I am clueless.
Every GM we’ve hired has said that about the injuries. And many other GMs around the league as well. It’s not in their control as we, above maybe any fan base, know.
And that you don’t have a clear view is just what you should expect given where Schoen started. We haven’t seen year three yet. I think we’re just approaching average. Just what we should expect.
Year 3 will be very interesting. Maybe above all else, I am hoping a few questions get answered such as "x" number of young players stepping forward (up to the next level) and a coaching staff that consistently prepares their players for each and every game (win or lose.) Would love to hear -- at the end of the season -- that most of our opponents said the Giants were a very tough out. (Of course, winning would also be nice!)
Right. That’s the level of expectation we should have. Seeing a reasonably competitive team.
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Lots of fans are overreacting to the 2023 season. Not much you can do when you lose your left tackle and starting QB for a majority of the season.
How about reacting to the last two seasons? We started off 7-2, finished the season 2-5-1 until the "Greatest Playoff Performance Ever" TM followed by the disaster in Philadelphia. Since that high water mark on November 13, 2022, we have gone 8-16-1 in the regular season. How is it "overreacting" to losing 2/3 of your games over two seasons?
And how much credit do you give Joe Schoen for the limited success in 2022? That was largely Gettleman's roster. Daboll is the one who developed an offense even Daniel Jones could run somewhat effectively until the rest of the league (absent the Colts and Vikings) figured it out.
How many bites at the Apple before we have a competent OL
Finally, the big ? For me is did he consider trading Saquon for draft capital
How many bites at the Apple before we have a competent OL
Finally, the big ? For me is did he consider trading Saquon for draft capital
Totally agree on points 1 and 3
As for point 2…literally every lineman he has drafted has had injury issues
Hard to criticize him for that…let’s just hope the FA acquisitions pan out
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Lots of fans are overreacting to the 2023 season. Not much you can do when you lose your left tackle and starting QB for a majority of the season.
How about reacting to the last two seasons? We started off 7-2, finished the season 2-5-1 until the "Greatest Playoff Performance Ever" TM followed by the disaster in Philadelphia. Since that high water mark on November 13, 2022, we have gone 8-16-1 in the regular season. How is it "overreacting" to losing 2/3 of your games over two seasons?
HJ, only positive trends matter... negative trends are hand waved away
I don't have a problem with people being lukewarm about Joe. I am too. I don't think he's been a complete disaster, but I think he has more misses than hits.
I think BD is over rated. 2022 was the first season that DJ, SB and AT all played together and healthy. Biggest factor in some middling offense success imv.
Overall, both are too perimeter oriented for me but we'll see.
I mean, really tried.
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to Schoen for 2022. That team's key contributors were basically all Gettleman players, so Daboll should receive the lion's share of the credit.
Aside from Okreke, what impact players has he added? Have the drafts been anything other than average so far?
Add in the tripling down on Jones, and what looks like a hideous contract, and you have a very underwhelming performance so far from our stylish looking GM.
What's a bigger problem for this franchise right now? Jones? Schoen? Or both?
daboll isnt here without him so that's where his credit starts. i think more highly of daboll so far than schoen too, though i think schoen is generally competent. he's just hit a lot more singles than homers to this point.
That's true. Schoen did hire Daboll. So, he deserves credit.
But it certainly has been way too many singles.
Because folks think this was a two year rebuild and it’s closer to a four year rebuild. So, if you’re looking down the road I think you can be optimistic. If you think we should already be a playoff team then not so much.
I think he's fine. He's basically a modern GM, same as most other teams have. I want a good strategy and process. I think there's lot of luck/chance/variance when it comes to the draft (look at the Seahawks as an example of this).
Across sports, teams are getting smarter and more homogonized. We have a normal modern GM. After that, there's a lot of luck involved.
His handling of the QB situation is a disaster though and that is the most important thing. It's hard to find the right guy. It's not hard to try. He hasn't tried yet and that is a very bad sign.
Unlike most I think the DJ deal is a plus for him. A two year out for $80MM is pretty good when you look what QBs are getting.
The guy who I like but think should be on the hot seat is Daboll. If DJ was a big mistake it is more on him than Schoen. He had to sign off on DJ being capable and no one was better positioned than him to make that judgment. If Schoen made that signing without Daboll's endorsement then fire him. But even more, lots of things, big and small, that have a bad look on Daboll last year: People management, not having the OL practice and play together, Eric Gray at returner, firing of position coaches that he hired - OL, DC, ST, etc., keeping Peart over Phillips, and worst the team seemed completely unprepared for opening day. Just a lot didn't make sense. Hopefully, that all improves going forward or is overblown.
Bottom line is, dealt with a ton of injuries and battled to 6 wins.
The team is much better than what the record showed IMO.
Not one item noted above was any more likely to happen than not.
But nice try.
The bigger question right now is the success of the players they invested draft capital in. There are some nice players, and a few hits, but they've had a lot of "at-bats" in the draft, and right now not enough of those guys are difference makers.
If its another year where we are waiting for year 2-3 guys to break out, I think it will be fair to question this team from a scouting & talent evaluation standpoint - (which is weird considering that is Schoen's background).
The trades, free agency, waiver pickups, contract management etc. have all been lightyears better under this regime. They NEED to start hitting on picks.
I am good with most everything in your post, except this idea that critics of the Jones deal are simply taking advantage of hindsight. That just isn't the case.
How many bites at the Apple before we have a competent OL
Finally, the big ? For me is did he consider trading Saquon for draft capital
I'm sure he considered trading Saquon. Mara was quoted as not wanting to trade him. And Barkley was injured week 2, out until week 6 and then injured again week 7. What team is giving anything for Barkley at that point?
1. Daboll hire
2. Okereke signing
3. Toney/LW/Burns trades
4. Thibs/Banks/Hyatt/Nabers draft picks
Failures:
1. DJ contract (worst decision in franchise history)
2. Glowinski/Campbell signings
3. Waller trade
4. Not trading Barkley/McKinney at 2023 trade deadline
5. Neal/Ezeudu/Gray/Muasau draft picks
Still lots of TBD but for every positive there has seemed to be a corresponding negative. Schoen may be more likable and professional than Gettleman, but has thus far been about the same in terms of roster building. And the two best players on the 2024 team are still legacy Gettleman guys. Let's hope we see some glimmers of hope from "Schoen's guys" in what will likely be another very tough season record wise in 2024 due to QB/OL/RB woes.
1. Daboll hire
2. Okereke signing
3. Toney/LW/Burns trades
4. Thibs/Banks/Hyatt/Nabers draft picks
Failures:
1. DJ contract (worst decision in franchise history)
2. Glowinski/Campbell signings
3. Waller trade
4. Not trading Barkley/McKinney at 2023 trade deadline
5. Neal/Ezeudu/Gray/Muasau draft picks
Still lots of TBD but for every positive there has seemed to be a corresponding negative. Schoen may be more likable and professional than Gettleman, but has thus far been about the same in terms of roster building. And the two best players on the 2024 team are still legacy Gettleman guys. Let's hope we see some glimmers of hope from "Schoen's guys" in what will likely be another very tough season record wise in 2024 due to QB/OL/RB woes.
How is Gray a failure? Way to premature to make that statement…let’s see what he does with increased playing time….its amazing how one could write someone off after their rookie year
Ezudu- been hurt 2 years in a row and had to play out of position
Muasau- wasn’t he just drafted this year? How could that be deemed a failure when he hadn’t even played a down yet?