(1) When he was first hired by the Giants, and we had a chance to see/hear his first few press conferences, I think just about everyone felt he was such a breath of fresh air after Dave Gettleman.
(2) He was (and still is) much more polished in front of the camera/press and just seems to have a better overall grasp of the modern-day job/task of an NFL GM in all its myriad complexities.
(3) He also just seems to fit in much better with his fellow GMs -- he seems to know more of them; he seems to get along with more of them; he seems to be in contact with them more often; and he certainly looks like more of them in terms of age and overall hip, cool, prepped-out appearance.
(4) He also seems to be out on the road more often than Dave Gettleman attending/scouting numerous college football games.
(5) And my guess is that Joe Schoen has implemented several internal organizational changes that represent an improvement over Dave Gettleman's regime.
(6) And on top of all that, his team somehow, someway actually made the playoffs in his first term as GM when everyone knew he had taken on a mega re-building project. All of which served to only enhance all his positive attributes that were on full display.
(7) But after his second season, all of the above now seems like a precious vase that lies shattered on the floor. And whether or not Joe Schoen succeeds in changing the trajectory of this franchise is anyone's guess.
1. Daboll hire
2. Okereke signing
3. Toney/LW/Burns trades
4. Thibs/Banks/Hyatt/Nabers draft picks
Failures:
1. DJ contract (worst decision in franchise history)
2. Glowinski/Campbell signings
3. Waller trade
4. Not trading Barkley/McKinney at 2023 trade deadline
5. Neal/Ezeudu/Gray/Muasau draft picks
Still lots of TBD but for every positive there has seemed to be a corresponding negative. Schoen may be more likable and professional than Gettleman, but has thus far been about the same in terms of roster building. And the two best players on the 2024 team are still legacy Gettleman guys. Let's hope we see some glimmers of hope from "Schoen's guys" in what will likely be another very tough season record wise in 2024 due to QB/OL/RB woes.
Not sure if you are being hyperbolic on purpose, but wow..
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Successes:
1. Daboll hire
2. Okereke signing
3. Toney/LW/Burns trades
4. Thibs/Banks/Hyatt/Nabers draft picks
Failures:
1. DJ contract (worst decision in franchise history)
2. Glowinski/Campbell signings
3. Waller trade
4. Not trading Barkley/McKinney at 2023 trade deadline
5. Neal/Ezeudu/Gray/Muasau draft picks
Still lots of TBD but for every positive there has seemed to be a corresponding negative. Schoen may be more likable and professional than Gettleman, but has thus far been about the same in terms of roster building. And the two best players on the 2024 team are still legacy Gettleman guys. Let's hope we see some glimmers of hope from "Schoen's guys" in what will likely be another very tough season record wise in 2024 due to QB/OL/RB woes.
How is Gray a failure? Way to premature to make that statement…let’s see what he does with increased playing time….its amazing how one could write someone off after their rookie year
Ezudu- been hurt 2 years in a row and had to play out of position
Muasau- wasn’t he just drafted this year? How could that be deemed a failure when he hadn’t even played a down yet?
These are opinions. Saying "let's wait and see" is not an opinion. It is precisely the definition of not having an opinion. Gray is a step too slow. I said it at the time of the draft, nothing has changed. Can he rise up and become a serviceable JAG in the NFL? Possibly, but I doubt it.
Ezeudu is at best a JAG - not worthy of a day two pick, especially given what they could have had at that spot. Not selecting either Milton or Pratt in the sixth round this year was an absolute must for a slew of reasons that we have hashed over on BBI for months now...
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In comment 16549736 The Mike said:
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Successes:
1. Daboll hire
2. Okereke signing
3. Toney/LW/Burns trades
4. Thibs/Banks/Hyatt/Nabers draft picks
Failures:
1. DJ contract (worst decision in franchise history)
2. Glowinski/Campbell signings
3. Waller trade
4. Not trading Barkley/McKinney at 2023 trade deadline
5. Neal/Ezeudu/Gray/Muasau draft picks
Still lots of TBD but for every positive there has seemed to be a corresponding negative. Schoen may be more likable and professional than Gettleman, but has thus far been about the same in terms of roster building. And the two best players on the 2024 team are still legacy Gettleman guys. Let's hope we see some glimmers of hope from "Schoen's guys" in what will likely be another very tough season record wise in 2024 due to QB/OL/RB woes.
How is Gray a failure? Way to premature to make that statement…let’s see what he does with increased playing time….its amazing how one could write someone off after their rookie year
Ezudu- been hurt 2 years in a row and had to play out of position
Muasau- wasn’t he just drafted this year? How could that be deemed a failure when he hadn’t even played a down yet?
These are opinions. Saying "let's wait and see" is not an opinion. It is precisely the definition of not having an opinion. Gray is a step too slow. I said it at the time of the draft, nothing has changed. Can he rise up and become a serviceable JAG in the NFL? Possibly, but I doubt it.
Ezeudu is at best a JAG - not worthy of a day two pick, especially given what they could have had at that spot. Not selecting either Milton or Pratt in the sixth round this year was an absolute must for a slew of reasons that we have hashed over on BBI for months now...
Ah…so someone is labeled a bust because the message board experts wanted to draft somebody else
There are literally no words to this logic
And Ezeudu was drafted exactly where he was projected to go
Speaking of overpay, the D. Jones contract was dumb and Jones' people bent little Joe over the table. No doubt Jones will have a couple of good games, a couple of bad games and a lot of blahtastic games. Dumb. It doesn't need to qualify as the dumbest move ever in order to be stupid.
As I said, Schoen gets kudos for Banks and Hyatt. I am surprised you didn't call me out for having a "too early" positive opinion on them. It seems you only have an aversion to negative early opinions. Objectivity doesn't appear to be your strong suit.
McFadden is ok, neither great nor terrible. Good against the run, slow in pass coverage. The Simmons/McFadden platoon could work well if Bowen gets it right. Robinson is TBD. He could be good if he stays healthy, he also seems to have difficulty breaking free after first contact. Maybe he will take a big leap now with the big upgrade in Nabers/Hyatt/Slayton "take the top off the defense" team speed.
Come on. None of those decisions are as back breaking as the DJ contract and the impact to this team and how it delays a proper rebuild.
But, with how it turned out - Jones was going to be back (you admitted this in the Vikings playoff game post game thread).
You were right, they should have tagged him. So, the decision is the difference between Jones in 2024 or someone like Sam Darnold. It would be cheaper and you could invest more in the team, but they are probably picking in the same spot. They most likely still don't draft McCarthy. They probably still don't draft a 24 year old Penix with an injury history.
I like you as a poster, but I think it's overly hyperbolic to exaggerate how much this contract has set the franchise back. And a $22M dead cap hit in 2025 is becoming more the norm around franchises.
For NYG, it's all about finding a QB. Contract or no contract to Jones, they likely still wouldn't have a QB unless you wanted JJ McCarthy.
Link - ( New Window )
Not making excuses for Schoen, but there are reasons also.
Thanks for reminding me about the Ron Johnson trade. Its been a while. Wish his knees held up.
But, with how it turned out - Jones was going to be back (you admitted this in the Vikings playoff game post game thread).
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As for the offense, DJ had his best game as a Giant. It reminded me of the Simms performance in Super Bowl XXI in its flawlessness. Is DJ an elite quarterback now? Who cares. In a Daboll/Kafka world, he is valuable. More valuable than I would have ever imagined even six months ago. They can win a Super Bowl with DJ and that is really all that matters. So there should be no doubt that DJ will be back with this team next year. I am still not sure they will come to terms on a multi-year contract, but there is no way they let him out the door. In my mind, his floor yesterday went from the non-exclusive franchise tag to the exclusive franchise tag, which I think is the most likely outcome. Well earned and well deserved.
You were right, they should have tagged him. So, the decision is the difference between Jones in 2024 or someone like Sam Darnold. It would be cheaper and you could invest more in the team, but they are probably picking in the same spot. They most likely still don't draft McCarthy. They probably still don't draft a 24 year old Penix with an injury history.
I like you as a poster, but I think it's overly hyperbolic to exaggerate how much this contract has set the franchise back. And a $22M dead cap hit in 2025 is becoming more the norm around franchises.
For NYG, it's all about finding a QB. Contract or no contract to Jones, they likely still wouldn't have a QB unless you wanted JJ McCarthy. Link - ( New Window )
Sean - I emphatically stand by what I said then. Schoen had one choice, albeit not a good choice, and that was to franchise tag him. And I stand by what I say now - nothing is as debilitating to this franchise, and ARGUABLY nothing ever has been, as that contract. As Christian has cogently argued on BBI, the way the contract is written, we are all but stuck with DJ for two more years after 2024. So the DJ strangulation on the rebuild has only just begun.
And BTW, if you are going to go back and pick off old comments, please add my comments after the Eagles game a week later where I apologized to this board for the delusional nonsense of this post and I was back to where I wouldn't give a set of steak knives for him.
I don't doubt this was the original plan:
-Have a poor season in 2022.
-Draft a QB in 2023 with Tyrod Taylor as a bridge.
Things went backwards and there is a human element here. A first time GM with no track record and an ownership group who was no doubt eager to keep building with both the QB and RB.
People can say all they want, but not addressing that fact and how it presented a much tougher situation for Schoen is not being honest. Especially if people start praising Adam Peters. Schoen didn't have that benefit.
Not making excuses for Schoen, but there are reasons also.
Every team has some bad luck. The good teams, however, create their own good luck. And that can be derivative of moving on quickly from poor decisions.
I don't doubt this was the original plan:
-Have a poor season in 2022.
-Draft a QB in 2023 with Tyrod Taylor as a bridge.
Things went backwards and there is a human element here. A first time GM with no track record and an ownership group who was no doubt eager to keep building with both the QB and RB.
People can say all they want, but not addressing that fact and how it presented a much tougher situation for Schoen is not being honest. Especially if people start praising Adam Peters. Schoen didn't have that benefit.
Yes, you are probably right about the original plan. And he should have stuck with that plan! As I said, I think the jury is still out overall on Schoen. Some good, some bad. Yes he has had some bad luck, and nobody would criticize him for Evan Neal as an example.
But you could not screw up the situation with DJ more if you had tried. Declining the fifth year option and then overreacting to a meaningless playoff game? Marcus Mariota won a playoff game in spectacular fashion but the Titans were not foolish enough to give him a massive second contract. Was Mara meddling? Does it matter? Schoen has an obligation to do the right thing, even protecting Mara from himself when he is misguided. So Schoen either fully agreed with the contract or inneffectually caved under pressure rather than pushing hard for the tag.
Giants are not tied to DJ for two more seasons. So many other things can change if they have a season like last year or worse.
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Just need to give him enough time and space to build the team. Can't be done in a single offseason, not every move is going to work perfectly, or even work. Take the long view.
This is his 3rd offseason
It's going to take more than 3...
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I'm not looking to cherry pick, as I've said I like you as a poster. I think it's okay to admit it's been a shitty situation for Schoen too.
I don't doubt this was the original plan:
-Have a poor season in 2022.
-Draft a QB in 2023 with Tyrod Taylor as a bridge.
Things went backwards and there is a human element here. A first time GM with no track record and an ownership group who was no doubt eager to keep building with both the QB and RB.
People can say all they want, but not addressing that fact and how it presented a much tougher situation for Schoen is not being honest. Especially if people start praising Adam Peters. Schoen didn't have that benefit.
Yes, you are probably right about the original plan. And he should have stuck with that plan! As I said, I think the jury is still out overall on Schoen. Some good, some bad. Yes he has had some bad luck, and nobody would criticize him for Evan Neal as an example.
But you could not screw up the situation with DJ more if you had tried. Declining the fifth year option and then overreacting to a meaningless playoff game? Marcus Mariota won a playoff game in spectacular fashion but the Titans were not foolish enough to give him a massive second contract. Was Mara meddling? Does it matter? Schoen has an obligation to do the right thing, even protecting Mara from himself when he is misguided. So Schoen either fully agreed with the contract or inneffectually caved under pressure rather than pushing hard for the tag.
There were enormous, unworkable cap ramifications to the tag. Here's the math:
They entered 2023 season with about $40MM in cap space accounting for the draft pool.
That money had to cover the following players: Barkley, Jones, Nacho, Okereke, Slayton and Campbell (yeah he turned out a big zero but only in hindsight).
The cheapest QB tag was $30 million.
Barkley had already turned down $12MM a year. As we know his tag was $10MM.
Tagging Jones would have kept the Giants out of the 2023 anything but minimum free agent market completely except for replacing Barkley with a cheaper alternative, plus maybe adding one cheap vet.
Again, once Schoen declined Jones option (as EVERYONE wanted), the economic die was cast. He plays out 2022 - then you ditch him or pay him. And, again, there is no universe where a player in line for a tag signs a long term deal for less.
And BTW, Jones option wasn't peanuts - it was $8 million less than the tag.
If he didn't want it, just get one of the other 10+ QBs at that level who change teams every offseason.
Having two top ten picks in a shitty QB draft when he clearly would have gladly taken one.
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And let’s not classify missed games from several oft-injured offensive players as bad luck.
Having two top ten picks in a shitty QB draft when he clearly would have gladly taken one.
Yeah I can’t get there as that being straight bad luck. It’s not like he didnt/couldnt see the QBs that would be available, nor did it prevent him from dealing his picks to set up for a future year.
And it certainly shouldn’t have forced his hand on a bad Jones multi-year deal. Although it sadly did.
If he did that then this off season maybe goes a lot different.
If he didn't want it, just get one of the other 10+ QBs at that level who change teams every offseason.
Fine solution except that Schoen and Daboll don't agree with your assessment of Jones.
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1 year / $10 million. He is a backup/journeyman QB. That is the rate.
If he didn't want it, just get one of the other 10+ QBs at that level who change teams every offseason.
Fine solution except that Schoen and Daboll don't agree with your assessment of Jones.
He was clearly talking about his opinion. Not Schoen and Daboll. You are obviously one of the clowns that think coaches and GMs never make piss poor decisions so if they love Jones, he must be awesome, right?
This idea that some of you subscribe To that we can’t question a GMs decisions at times is asinine
If he did that then this off season maybe goes a lot different.
That's pretty spot on. Another very easy way to make it work would have been moving more of Adoree Jackson's money out to 2024 (creating more dead money) + signing Barkley + not signing Campbell.
If Jones is tagged Barkley was either gone, or extended, so that's easy to assume. The terms that were nearly agree upon, were widely reported as 3/39M.
As far as creating dead money, giving Jones 32M instead of the 84.7M he was slated to earn (it ends up being a little less because he didn't hit his performance bonus) actually ends up being cap positive.
The top table is how they entered the season, the bottom table is what they could have done.
If he did that then this off season maybe goes a lot different.
Right. Jones initial 2023 hit was originally $16MM. $17MM under NEFT; $8 million more than his year 5 option.
It all boils down the the same thing. After proving it off a prove-it year it was tag or let walk, with the tag requiring unnatural cap acts. You say get creative - but that means pushing cap hits out and still no Okereke. Then either:
a) 2023 happens, Jones is now gone, we have JJ McCarthy, no Okereke (but can sign someone else this season), and no Nabers.
b) 2023 likely alternate reality is Jones playing a bit better than 2022 in system year 2 plus having a bit of Waller (I'm assuming part of the creative magic was fitting him under the cap) plus WDR and Hyatt give him better weapons. Presumably that's worth 3 wins at least which means a playoff berth.
Come March, Jones is an impending free agent (but SB remains a Giant). Also the Giants have less cap space due to dead money (and a $12 million running back). Next move is? And very tough to see how Burns fits -- and we don't have the extra 2 to give up.
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In comment 16549876 Jerry in_DC said:
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1 year / $10 million. He is a backup/journeyman QB. That is the rate.
If he didn't want it, just get one of the other 10+ QBs at that level who change teams every offseason.
Fine solution except that Schoen and Daboll don't agree with your assessment of Jones.
He was clearly talking about his opinion. Not Schoen and Daboll. You are obviously one of the clowns that think coaches and GMs never make piss poor decisions so if they love Jones, he must be awesome, right?
This idea that some of you subscribe To that we can’t question a GMs decisions at times is asinine
I didn't say that at all.
I'm not saying he (and me, you and everyone) can't (and shouldn't) disagree with Schoen/Daboll or any GM. I do not believe that.
The point is Schoen/Daboll wanted to keep Daniel Jones - so it was incumbent on Schoen to make that decision work (whether or not you agree with it).
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And let’s not classify missed games from several oft-injured offensive players as bad luck.
Having two top ten picks in a shitty QB draft when he clearly would have gladly taken one.
Based on Schoen passing on three QBs in this draft (all prospects who are more talented than Jones), I'm not sure you can say Schoen would "clearly" have chosen a QB in the 2022 draft.
Signing Barkley and tagging Jones was an incredibly easy thing to do, regarding the cap.
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NEFT carried about 17m more than the deal Jones received. With a little creativity, I think JS should be able make that work. Could have extending another player, held off on one of the signings and maybe given SB the 3 year deal that they looked at. Or a different path.
If he did that then this off season maybe goes a lot different.
That's pretty spot on. Another very easy way to make it work would have been moving more of Adoree Jackson's money out to 2024 (creating more dead money) + signing Barkley + not signing Campbell.
If Jones is tagged Barkley was either gone, or extended, so that's easy to assume. The terms that were nearly agree upon, were widely reported as 3/39M.
As far as creating dead money, giving Jones 32M instead of the 84.7M he was slated to earn (it ends up being a little less because he didn't hit his performance bonus) actually ends up being cap positive.
The top table is how they entered the season, the bottom table is what they could have done.
Of course it's cap positive. But it would be a lesser team when 2023 ended. More holes to fill including the QB hole (which -- you know -- could be UFA Jones on a prove it deal) and the one no Okereke left.
Realistically you're adding two years to the timeline. Which is worth it if you didn't want Jones. Although I'm confident that BBI would be most impatient in those two years.
But not if you wanted Jones after 22. Which goes back to who made the decision.
Signing Barkley and tagging Jones was an incredibly easy thing to do, regarding the cap.
Yes it's incredibly easy to create cap space when you need to. Like say when you're contending for the Super Bowl. It's pushing $50 million out in the years you're not that stops you from getting in that position.
Signing Barkley and tagging Jones was an incredibly easy thing to do, regarding the cap.
Bingo! This was the move. Jones & Barkley were coming back.
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The Giants could have signed every player they did last year, including Okereke, except Campbell.
Signing Barkley and tagging Jones was an incredibly easy thing to do, regarding the cap.
Yes it's incredibly easy to create cap space when you need to. Like say when you're contending for the Super Bowl. It's pushing $50 million out in the years you're not that stops you from getting in that position.
$50M in the years that you're not contending for the Super Bowl?
Like DJ's cap hit this year?
That's also an incredibly dramatic and wildly inaccurate representation of what would have been necessary to replicate last offseason's activity with DJ tagged and Barkley signed rather than vice versa.
If the Giants had chosen the second scenario in that table here would be the net roster differences:
2023: They don't have Parris Campbell
2024: Daniel Jones is an UFA, they have Saquon Barkley under team control for 2 more years
Everything else would have been literally the same roster wise.
Cap wise the Giants would have had more cap dollars in every year, for a total net cap savings of 23.5M.
They would have only pushed a +8.7M of Jackson's 2023 cap hit to 2024.
Big answers
But @ what point is fair to surmise that Jones IS Schoen's QB?
But @ what point is fair to surmise that Jones IS Schoen's QB?
That point happened when he gave the guy 82M.
Big answers
You're probably right about that.
This is grossly over-simplifying matters, but if Joes Schoen ends up batting below .500 with Evan Neal, John Michael Schmitz, Joshua Ezeudu, Marcus McKethan, Jon Runyan, Jr. and Jermaine Eluemunor, then I just don't know how much more runway the guy will have.
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We've arrived at complete agreement. Like you've said, Schoen needs to acquire a QB. In order for him to get the opportunity to do it, the team will need to show progress in the meantime. He has ultimately created this situation on himself.
But @ what point is fair to surmise that Jones IS Schoen's QB?
I'm not quite there. I think Schoen values QB over RB which is why Jones get a 2.5 tier contract (between 2nd and 3rd QB tier). The success in 2022 clouded everything. I think Schoen views Jones as a placeholder.
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In comment 16549926 christian said:
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The Giants could have signed every player they did last year, including Okereke, except Campbell.
Signing Barkley and tagging Jones was an incredibly easy thing to do, regarding the cap.
Yes it's incredibly easy to create cap space when you need to. Like say when you're contending for the Super Bowl. It's pushing $50 million out in the years you're not that stops you from getting in that position.
$50M in the years that you're not contending for the Super Bowl?
Like DJ's cap hit this year?
That's also an incredibly dramatic and wildly inaccurate representation of what would have been necessary to replicate last offseason's activity with DJ tagged and Barkley signed rather than vice versa.
No it's not. Feel free to disagree with something to back it up.
And yeah, like this year -- plus 2 more on top of already one more.
You can make any argument you want but it comes down to the same thing: if you wanted to keep Jones after declining his option and '22, this was the most prudent way. 2 year commitment instead of one, in exchange for a better team (outside QB which we don't know) and clean books on the other side.
Otherwise is essentially arguing they should ditched Jones after 22. Which is a fine (although not very defensible) position. That's OK. But don't layer on unwarranted criticism on the execution of the decision. Two different things
No more excuses. None. And I think & hope Joe recognizes that.
$50M in the years that you're not contending for the Super Bowl?
Like DJ's cap hit this year?
That's also an incredibly dramatic and wildly inaccurate representation of what would have been necessary to replicate last offseason's activity with DJ tagged and Barkley signed rather than vice versa.
No it's not. Feel free to disagree with something to back it up.
And yeah, like this year -- plus 2 more on top of already one more.
You can make any argument you want but it comes down to the same thing: if you wanted to keep Jones after declining his option and '22, this was the most prudent way. 2 year commitment instead of one, in exchange for a better team (outside QB which we don't know) and clean books on the other side.
Otherwise is essentially arguing they should ditched Jones after 22. Which is a fine (although not very defensible) position. That's OK. But don't layer on unwarranted criticism on the execution of the decision. Two different things
Well for starters the Giants only needed an incremental 17M on the 2023 cap, so 50M is a 3X exaggeration on its face.
I don't know how you define clean books, but if Jones was tagged he would have a $0 cap charge in 2024 or 2025. As it stands today, Jones will have a minimum cap charge of 22M on 2025.
So just to restate the facts I posted above, if the Giants would have tagged Jones in 2023 and signed Barkley, the incremental difference would be:
2023: No Parris Campbell and him losing his job half way through the year
2024: Jones is an UFA, but the Giants have Barkley under contract
And over the 2023-2025 period that Giants have +23.5M in cap space.