this is probably "confirmation bias" on my part, but part of me says that Schoen's response to McDonald about having a $40 million dollar QB handing off to a $12 million back was a shot across the bow..."you fuckers put me in this situation."
Of course, the opposite can be true, that the buck stops with Schoen and he screwed up. But I wonder...
RE: Reading the tea leaves and piecing it together
It can’t be more clear how the Barkley situation played out the past 18+ months. Mara and Co desperately wanted him to be the face of the franchise for the next 25 years, and already ordering the ring of honor signage. And willing to resign him at any cost.
Schoen felt the pressure, and offered more than a fair number. Seems Schoen felt they were close to a deal, and could franchise Jones. And something blew up at the end, forcing the Jones contract.
We know the Jones contract went down to the last minute. I think the Barkley contract blowing up and pivot to Jones deal is what took the ten years off Schoen life.
I think Schoen Daboll like Jones. But would have preferred a franchise contract rather than the commitment. Jones injury, I think is where Schoen feels Barkley screwed the franchise by not agreeing to a deal to allow the Jones franchise tag…
The frustration of dealing with Barkley, calling his Giant for Life bluff, and pressure from ownership all couldn't be more clear IMO
This is such a great post and something I've tried to articulate, but you do it brilliantly here.
It’s clear, he’s more OBJ than Victor Cruz, personality wise, right? Most alph receivers are like that, which was mentioned in last nights episode.
But they said they like him, but need to do more digging into his personality etc. the fact that they drafted him, tells you everything you need to know. They dug, and drafted him. Over an almost equally talented WR who couldn’t be more clean personality wise.
Clear, the FO was comfortable with Nabers personality.
I'd be shocked if Victor Cruz didn't go to strip clubs.
I’d be even more shocked if the Giants passed on a player because he liked to look at tits.
That's not the concern. It's that he knowingly broke the law to do it. And he already had a gun arrest. Coincidence or pattern? Too early to tell.
Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
Leftover over thoughts from the second episode of Hard Knocks:
• Last night’s episode exceeded expectations on what they’d cover. Don’t see how they avoid revealing who they were targeting in a trade up now.
• We had another prominent member of the front office talk with uncertainty about who the QB would be. Brandon Brown on handling Nabers’ personality this week, Tim McDonnell on the QB leaning on the run game last week.
• Christian Wilkins was a more serious consideration than anyone realized. So the question is would you rather have Wilkins at $27.5M/year or Burns at $28.2M/year minus second and fifth round picks?
• Will be interesting to see how the Burns negotiations evolved. Schoen indicated he offered two seconds at the combine. How did he get down to a 2 and a 5 from there?
• If any of the concerns with Nabers’ personality prevent him from reaching his potential, it will be easy to second guess the decision to take him over Rome Odunze whose intangibles were “everything you want.”
• The lack of investment at corner continues to stick out. Don’t think they’ll put Schoen there. Could still see them spend on a vet there.
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
Marvin Harrison refusing to take the cheese from Mike Groh in the Combine interview was low key smooth. Seemed obvious the question was the plant to see if Marv would; they very likely knew he wouldn't.
Daniels comment about how he would handle NYC pressure was funny "Well, I did play in Death Valley" ... yeah, ok kid.
I don't think Daniels was saying Baton Rouge was NYC. To me, he was suggesting he's used to playing for a program with high expectations.
LSU has a very noisy fan and alumni base. They aren't interested in playing in the Gator or Citrus Bowl. It's the F4 or bust. Hell, they ran two national championship coaches out of there very quicky - Les Miles and Ed Orgeron - after they hit some headwinds.
One more thing. I'm so tired of this "NYC is so hard to play in" mantra. The NY/NJ/CT media has lost significant MPHs off their fastball. Some of the questions they ask are laughable. And players are more prepared than ever to give canned, generic answers. This organization needs to worry less about this myth and get the most talented people.
was Schoen doing prep work with the PR team before his media session at the Combine. And how that team thought it was important to let Schoen know the Twitter universe was analyze his every word and body language.
That seemed a bit strange to me. It's not like Schoen is the press secretary for the White House. JFC, it's football and you run the team.
I can see the importance of using that team for players, especially because many players are so young. But for an executive like Schoen, he should be able to deal with a football press conference without prepping with a PR team.
A lot has been written about Saquon's attitude during the call with Schoen. I wonder whether he knew that his conversation was being recorded. NJ law does not require notice as long as one party consents, but I would think a TV show like Hard Knocks in order to be fair would let all parties know the conversation was being recorded.
If Saquon did know, that knowledge alone could have contributed to his "attitude".
Odunze's answers were also canned. He was impressive because he knew exactly what to say to impress. (Think of how you interview when you interview).
Odunze has top intangibles, but let's be honest here, he was saying what he knew what he had to say.
I give Odunze credit for being prepared, and for the most part he sounded genuine. From all pre-draft reports, he is a kid with very high character and a team leader.
I've heard quite a few interviews with Maye in the pre-draft process. He always sounded solid and measured, but he blew me away in that 90 second clip with the Giants staff. He was on it.
Odunze's answers were also canned. He was impressive because he knew exactly what to say to impress. (Think of how you interview when you interview).
Odunze has top intangibles, but let's be honest here, he was saying what he knew what he had to say.
I think that he was well spoken also helped make a great imprewsion. Not at all an issue with the direction they took, he was just a very impressive interview with the tape to back it up.
RE: RE: art was right that episode was amazing - dabs combine interviews alone
worth the price of admission. wilkins and #39 is tempting but if you look at what was still on the board it's less clear. the most tempting alternative wasnt a player but the trade the rams did giving up 2 seconds for 1, which then pushes that pick below nubin any way. also would have voided the mckinney comp pick next year so not totally free.
there is a reasonable argument both ways but i think an edge bender like burns is just too hard to find elsewhere. also a couple years younger than wilkins. there's a reason he got tagged and had trade value, players like him at that age do not hit the open market.
since last summer it's been clear schoen didnt want to bring barkley back. i hope motor works out and does a good job but i think schoen dropped the ball on that one. the deal barkley's team proposed last year, encompassing the $10m from tag, was fair. ed berry clearly saw the writing on the wall and i thought it was interesting when he asked schoen point blank if they wanted to move on he answered like natalie imbruglia. i give him credit for taking the less comfortable path, but i dont think that's going to provide much respite if barkley gains 2k yards and 10+ tds in philly this year. hopefully that OL implodes without kelce. schoen's entire strategy in that negotiation was reactive vs proactive. i would have liked to see more of daboll's thoughts on that but it seems like the giants put a wall up on that.
Can't operate on the basis on what Philly may do. That's how we ended up with Ben McAdoo.
i wasnt resigning barkley to keep him from philly, i was resigning him last summer bc i thought the price was reasonable for a good player. we have no way of knowing what was doable with the giants (i.e. would he have taken less than he ended up with before hitting open market?) but the way philly did his contract the cap hit is the same this year as singletarys, if they wanted to bring barkley back there were easy ways to do it.
I think Schoen offered him what was a fair deal last year (and based on what we know, it seems like it was). I think he personally got frustrated with Saquon's (and Roc Nation's stance). "Took 10 years off my life." Left a bad taste in his mouth.
Saquon's demeanor ever since his final press interaction seemed to suggest he was done with the Giants. The phone call on the show last night was even worse. Saquon was glad they let him go.
Barkley offered the giants what ended up being a deal a lot lower than what he got, so is it not fair to also say barkley offered the nyg a "fair deal"?
if you worked hard for a company for 6 years and by the end they werent even making offers to keep you because they were torn whether you were worth it, even after you'd done things to make clear you wanted to stay and made them a fair offer, wouldnt you find that frustrating?
schoen is the one with the power to decide whether barkley would stay, not the other way around and it's clear he had no enthusiasm about the prospect of paying a 27 year old rb. as far as the negotiation taking years off schoen's life, suck it up that's the job. how many years off FO lives do we think strahan took back in the day? odell? etc.
It’s clear, he’s more OBJ than Victor Cruz, personality wise, right? Most alph receivers are like that, which was mentioned in last nights episode.
But they said they like him, but need to do more digging into his personality etc. the fact that they drafted him, tells you everything you need to know. They dug, and drafted him. Over an almost equally talented WR who couldn’t be more clean personality wise.
Clear, the FO was comfortable with Nabers personality.
I'd be shocked if Victor Cruz didn't go to strip clubs.
I’d be even more shocked if the Giants passed on a player because he liked to look at tits.
That's not the concern. It's that he knowingly broke the law to do it. And he already had a gun arrest. Coincidence or pattern? Too early to tell.
So, Giants should avoid drafting anyone who enters a bar or strip club underage?????
We may be 0-17, but listen to our choir boys sing 🤣
I see people going back and forth on this, but I think all Hard Knocks did was confirm what we all thought:
- Mara was the one that wanted Barkley, not Schoen/Daboll
- Barkley claimed we never made him an offer, he lied, it just wasn't as high as the Eagles
- Schoen clearly takes the "modern NFL" stance that RB's shouldn't have a large cap allocation
I wish Barkley well in his next stop and have no hard feelings against him, I also wouldn't have taken that contract to play so close to home. But we need to accept a very simple reality (maybe Mara needs to accept it): We didn't win with Barkley, so rather than double down on a proven loosing strategy, its best to move on to something else.
I see people going back and forth on this, but I think all Hard Knocks did was confirm what we all thought:
- Mara was the one that wanted Barkley, not Schoen/Daboll
- Barkley claimed we never made him an offer, he lied, it just wasn't as high as the Eagles
- Schoen clearly takes the "modern NFL" stance that RB's shouldn't have a large cap allocation
I wish Barkley well in his next stop and have no hard feelings against him, I also wouldn't have taken that contract to play so close to home. But we need to accept a very simple reality (maybe Mara needs to accept it): We didn't win with Barkley, so rather than double down on a proven loosing strategy, its best to move on to something else.
It doesn't bug me, but Saquon clearly lied. It's on tape.
"We need to get around this kid and see if we can work with him because there is a lot to his personality,” area scout Scott Hamel said.
Is this an indication they were/are concerned about the high maintenance rumor (see: strip club video)? Or they think he just has an outgoing personality?
I was thinking the same thing k2! I really wanted Rome because he just seemed like a professional and NOT a diva. Even on the show, that kid is ready to go! Here's to hoping Nabers will not get in trouble in NYC.
this is speculation, but in his interview Rome said all the exact right things if you would have scripted out the right answers perfectly - and i get the feeling with daboll he connects with guys who he views as more real/edgy. barkley was more the former too. i think daboll likes more of the pirate ship ethos.
re nabers there were valid questions w/ him (esp the gun charge on bourbon street). things like that and the strip club are the types of things that come with picking a younger player without the understanding of what its like to have the kind of media attention he's going to get. in interviews he sounds all about football so we have to hope it's just a learning curve.
is a controversial subject on this site, but in the first two episodes, it is very telling to me that the two guys making the biggest push to keep Saquon are Mara and McDonald. (and this is after the edits were approved... makes you wonder what they left out).
i thought rossetti made the strongest push a couple times, and he's both the guy in charge of pro scouting and obviously ended up pretty prescient re the eagles.
is a controversial subject on this site, but in the first two episodes, it is very telling to me that the two guys making the biggest push to keep Saquon are Mara and McDonald. (and this is after the edits were approved... makes you wonder what they left out).
i thought rossetti made the strongest push a couple times, and he's both the guy in charge of pro scouting and obviously ended up pretty prescient re the eagles.
You are correct. Rosetti did too in that one meeting with Schoen in his office.
I agree with Schoen complaining about how hard it was dealing with franchising Barkley. It's part of the job.
Schoen should have taken the "test the market" approach with Barkley last year. It would have been better since the RB market was worse last year too. Franchise Jones and decide if you want to match any offer Barkley got.
I admit it would have been more challenging doing that off of 2022.
I agree with Biteymax above... it's clear Mara uses passive aggressive pressure on the GM. I'm not sure Mara would have OKed them letting Saquon test the market last year (players who test the market are usually gone).
I'm coming close to tagging him with the moniker of "Meddling Mara"
This is the essence of the problem. It’s not passive aggression, it’s the boss doing what bosses do when they hire a direct report/decision maker that doesn’t have clear direction and every decision is a series of hallway conversations making sure how much support the boss is prepared to supply.
That embarrassing whining in episode 1 when Mara considered #26 leaving is exhibit “Z”. I’m sure the previous 25 exhibits were similar stomach gurgling over Schoen suggesting they trade him last season or let him similarly test the market.
Schoen is in an extreme “manage up” case study.
Praying they put the Ravens on camera in an offseason. Bisciotti and Ozzie invented the “we love you and want the best for you, but we have a cap to manage so please bring your best deal back and we’ll talk”
is a controversial subject on this site, but in the first two episodes, it is very telling to me that the two guys making the biggest push to keep Saquon are Mara and McDonald. (and this is after the edits were approved... makes you wonder what they left out).
With respect to Giants having a final edit - it’s almost as if they intentionally left in scenes to make it clear the Mara family wanted to pay Saquon. Comes across as setting up Schoen as the bad guy
Maybe I’m over thinking it, but it came across as thinly veiled pettiness to me
I still can’t get past the “what’s our identity on offense without Saquon” from Ep 1.
Our identity with Saquon has been one of the most pathetic offenses in the NFL. How is that something to cling to?
I think Schoen offered him what was a fair deal last year (and based on what we know, it seems like it was). I think he personally got frustrated with Saquon's (and Roc Nation's stance). "Took 10 years off my life." Left a bad taste in his mouth.
Saquon's demeanor ever since his final press interaction seemed to suggest he was done with the Giants. The phone call on the show last night was even worse. Saquon was glad they let him go.
Barkley offered the giants what ended up being a deal a lot lower than what he got, so is it not fair to also say barkley offered the nyg a "fair deal"?
if you worked hard for a company for 6 years and by the end they werent even making offers to keep you because they were torn whether you were worth it, even after you'd done things to make clear you wanted to stay and made them a fair offer, wouldnt you find that frustrating?
The difference here though is that since Barkley was drafted, the Giants paid him more money than any other in the NFL got paid, except for McCaffrey and Elliot. Because he was the #2 overall pick, Barkley's rookie contract was as big or bigger than practically every other RB's 2nd contract. That Barkley should be "frustrated" that the Giants paid nearly $49 million is not reasonable.
And let's be real, Barkley didn't deserve a contract comparable to McCaffrey's 2nd contract because Barkley is not as good a player. And Elliot's 2nd contract is a warning, not something to follow.
My guess here, and why we are seeing more about their Wilkins interest than Burns. The preference was Burns, but used signing Wilkins as leverage. And need to show that in the episodes the Wilkins love was real, and wasn’t just a leverage ploy.
They probably liked Wilkins. But obviously not more than Burns since they could have signed him for less than Burns, and kept the draft capital. But I think the threat of Wilkins is how we went from two 1’s to “at least two twos” to a two and five.
i think this is probably exactly right. having his college teammate dex and having previously had him paired with a big cap chunk to leonard williams probably made it a pretty strong argument.
for all the folks who dug their heels in and refused to watch because they are missing some grade A content and getting some fascinating glimpses into our processes while clarifying or dispelling rumors from the time. And then they miss out on the "water cooler" conversation afterwards. I would watch 100 episodes of this...
The difference here though is that since Barkley was drafted, the Giants paid him more money than any other in the NFL got paid, except for McCaffrey and Elliot. Because he was the #2 overall pick, Barkley's rookie contract was as big or bigger than practically every other RB's 2nd contract. That Barkley should be "frustrated" that the Giants paid nearly $49 million is not reasonable.
And let's be real, Barkley didn't deserve a contract comparable to McCaffrey's 2nd contract because Barkley is not as good a player. And Elliot's 2nd contract is a warning, not something to follow.
what the giants chose to pay barkley in the past (on a slot rookie deal) has no bearing on what his value was past that contract. last year the giants tagged him at 10m gtd for 1 year, the negotiation started there.
and barkley's contract ask of the giants last year was not a CMC deal. it was less than he got from philly, which also wasnt a CMC deal.
but the pre-brief between Schoen and the PR department was gold.
I have always wondered if they did pre-briefs and this confirmed it.
Keep this in mind moving forward before every press conference.
Yup, I loved that. I worked at a large media company in a past life and I was around some of the bigwigs sitting with the PR team and prepping them for questions and how to answer/evade/redirect.
I'm not surprised by this, because when Schoen says he doesn't listen to sports radio, I believe him. So he needed to be coached up on the conversations on twitter. It also gives you a perspective if Schoen or Daboll ever go off script or get stunned by something, you can tell that it wasn't on their prep and they have to think on their feet.
LT set the bar highest for off field antics, but both BP and BB knew LT was not at choir practice in his off time but on Sundays, LT, was unstoppable….let’s hope Nabers can similarly deliver. They should at least advise the young receiver there are better uses for his stacks of monies than just tossing it in the air, aka private room lap dances, or investable opportunities. “Rumble young man….Rumble!”
for all the folks who dug their heels in and refused to watch because they are missing some grade A content and getting some fascinating glimpses into our processes while clarifying or dispelling rumors from the time. And then they miss out on the "water cooler" conversation afterwards. I would watch 100 episodes of this...
but the pre-brief between Schoen and the PR department was gold.
I have always wondered if they did pre-briefs and this confirmed it.
Keep this in mind moving forward before every press conference.
Yup, I loved that. I worked at a large media company in a past life and I was around some of the bigwigs sitting with the PR team and prepping them for questions and how to answer/evade/redirect.
I'm not surprised by this, because when Schoen says he doesn't listen to sports radio, I believe him. So he needed to be coached up on the conversations on twitter. It also gives you a perspective if Schoen or Daboll ever go off script or get stunned by something, you can tell that it wasn't on their prep and they have to think on their feet.
The jokes about X/Twitter were funny... I wonder if that PR guy reads BBI. (he he he)
I see people going back and forth on this, but I think all Hard Knocks did was confirm what we all thought:
- Mara was the one that wanted Barkley, not Schoen/Daboll
- Barkley claimed we never made him an offer, he lied, it just wasn't as high as the Eagles
- Schoen clearly takes the "modern NFL" stance that RB's shouldn't have a large cap allocation
I can't tell if Schoen finally had an epiphany on that or it's always been his position. Because there were signs/facts that Schoen would have signed Barkley to a multi-year deal, and the differences between his position and Team Barkley's wasn't huge. And I don't think that would have been a good outcome.
There were a lot of competing interests at Giants Way HQ on Barkley. Way too many people, especially the family, are stuck in the 80s with their view of the RB position and love the idea of marketing SB.
"So the question is would you rather have Wilkins at $27.5M/year or Burns at $28.2M/year minus second and fifth round picks?"
Pay Wilkins and draft an edge with that #2 ? I kind of think I prefer that. Wilkins and Dex would be a dominant duo because they would be force multipliers for each other. Who will you double?
I had thought that Wilkins was just not a realistic option. I was wrong.
Moreover, I did not like the Daniels answer about playing in Death Valley. Whole different ball game when it comes to playing in a big market in the NFL. Also, he spent half his career at ASU.
Moreover, I did not like the Daniels answer about playing in Death Valley. Whole different ball game when it comes to playing in a big market in the NFL. Also, he spent half his career at ASU.
Daniels was saying that he is used to playing for a program with enormous expectations.
And I could easily argue LSU has the highest expectations in the country. If you don't agree, you don't understand the football culture in Louisiana...
Quote:
but the pre-brief between Schoen and the PR department was gold.
I have always wondered if they did pre-briefs and this confirmed it.
Keep this in mind moving forward before every press conference.
You know what's fucking gold? Imagine that scenario and swap in the Dave Gettleman!
Ha
I wonder if they do pre-briefs with Mara. And I wonder what role Pat Hanlon has in all of this.
Of course, the opposite can be true, that the buck stops with Schoen and he screwed up. But I wonder...
Schoen felt the pressure, and offered more than a fair number. Seems Schoen felt they were close to a deal, and could franchise Jones. And something blew up at the end, forcing the Jones contract.
We know the Jones contract went down to the last minute. I think the Barkley contract blowing up and pivot to Jones deal is what took the ten years off Schoen life.
I think Schoen Daboll like Jones. But would have preferred a franchise contract rather than the commitment. Jones injury, I think is where Schoen feels Barkley screwed the franchise by not agreeing to a deal to allow the Jones franchise tag…
The frustration of dealing with Barkley, calling his Giant for Life bluff, and pressure from ownership all couldn't be more clear IMO
This is such a great post and something I've tried to articulate, but you do it brilliantly here.
Quote:
In comment 16550786 Shecky said:
Quote:
It’s clear, he’s more OBJ than Victor Cruz, personality wise, right? Most alph receivers are like that, which was mentioned in last nights episode.
But they said they like him, but need to do more digging into his personality etc. the fact that they drafted him, tells you everything you need to know. They dug, and drafted him. Over an almost equally talented WR who couldn’t be more clean personality wise.
Clear, the FO was comfortable with Nabers personality.
I'd be shocked if Victor Cruz didn't go to strip clubs.
I’d be even more shocked if the Giants passed on a player because he liked to look at tits.
That's not the concern. It's that he knowingly broke the law to do it. And he already had a gun arrest. Coincidence or pattern? Too early to tell.
@DDuggan21
Leftover over thoughts from the second episode of Hard Knocks:
• Last night’s episode exceeded expectations on what they’d cover. Don’t see how they avoid revealing who they were targeting in a trade up now.
• We had another prominent member of the front office talk with uncertainty about who the QB would be. Brandon Brown on handling Nabers’ personality this week, Tim McDonnell on the QB leaning on the run game last week.
• Christian Wilkins was a more serious consideration than anyone realized. So the question is would you rather have Wilkins at $27.5M/year or Burns at $28.2M/year minus second and fifth round picks?
• Will be interesting to see how the Burns negotiations evolved. Schoen indicated he offered two seconds at the combine. How did he get down to a 2 and a 5 from there?
• If any of the concerns with Nabers’ personality prevent him from reaching his potential, it will be easy to second guess the decision to take him over Rome Odunze whose intangibles were “everything you want.”
• The lack of investment at corner continues to stick out. Don’t think they’ll put Schoen there. Could still see them spend on a vet there.
@JordanRaanan
Some thoughts off episode 2 of Hard Knocks:
— Seems pretty obvious the Giants and Joe Schoen were ready to move on from Saquon and he was done with them. That’s OK, too. Best for both sides.
— Surprised they showed Schoen going to talk with Patriots at their suite during combine about the No. 3 pick. Great and telling content.
— If the Giants didn’t land Brian Burns it seems the next option was to sign Christian Wilkins. 👀
— Schoen and the Giants thought it would cost two second-round picks or a first-rounder for Burns. Schoen did well in that trade.
@art_stapleton
Marvin Harrison refusing to take the cheese from Mike Groh in the Combine interview was low key smooth. Seemed obvious the question was the plant to see if Marv would; they very likely knew he wouldn't.
Daniels comment about how he would handle NYC pressure was funny "Well, I did play in Death Valley" ... yeah, ok kid.
I don't think Daniels was saying Baton Rouge was NYC. To me, he was suggesting he's used to playing for a program with high expectations.
LSU has a very noisy fan and alumni base. They aren't interested in playing in the Gator or Citrus Bowl. It's the F4 or bust. Hell, they ran two national championship coaches out of there very quicky - Les Miles and Ed Orgeron - after they hit some headwinds.
One more thing. I'm so tired of this "NYC is so hard to play in" mantra. The NY/NJ/CT media has lost significant MPHs off their fastball. Some of the questions they ask are laughable. And players are more prepared than ever to give canned, generic answers. This organization needs to worry less about this myth and get the most talented people.
I didn't think he came off as well as Maye, but there are some who think he did. Shows you how subjective this is.
Refreshing they didn't. It was no secret, DJ even got asked about it in the offseason. Gave a reasonable answer.
I'd imagine if they did get a QB.....There would be about 3x hours that we WOULD* have seen that did not make the cut.
Lame answer....but I feel like all 3 top WRs are going to be very good in the league.
Odunze has top intangibles, but let's be honest here, he was saying what he knew what he had to say.
I also think players like Burns getting paid 150 raised the cost of a player like Wilkins a few days later.
That seemed a bit strange to me. It's not like Schoen is the press secretary for the White House. JFC, it's football and you run the team.
I can see the importance of using that team for players, especially because many players are so young. But for an executive like Schoen, he should be able to deal with a football press conference without prepping with a PR team.
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10:12 am : link : reply
it interesting that people have a different take on the interaction with Jayden Daniels.
I didn't think he came off as well as Maye, but there are some who think he did. Shows you how subjective this is.
Im with you there. While Daniels "Throw a TD pass" got a smile from Daboll - I'd imagine he was looking for a more refined question.
I interview people all the time - and Rome's answer seemed beyond canned. I actually prefered Nabers being more upfront, himself.
All very subjective.
A lot has been written about Saquon's attitude during the call with Schoen. I wonder whether he knew that his conversation was being recorded. NJ law does not require notice as long as one party consents, but I would think a TV show like Hard Knocks in order to be fair would let all parties know the conversation was being recorded.
If Saquon did know, that knowledge alone could have contributed to his "attitude".
Odunze has top intangibles, but let's be honest here, he was saying what he knew what he had to say.
I give Odunze credit for being prepared, and for the most part he sounded genuine. From all pre-draft reports, he is a kid with very high character and a team leader.
I've heard quite a few interviews with Maye in the pre-draft process. He always sounded solid and measured, but he blew me away in that 90 second clip with the Giants staff. He was on it.
However, he's smart enough to know what the right response should be too.
****
Pivoting to Nabers... was Nabers smart enough to honestly admit he hates losing more than he likes winning?
That's usually a canned response too.
But if not, that's the kind of player we need. That's what Bill Parcells actually looked for.
Odunze has top intangibles, but let's be honest here, he was saying what he knew what he had to say.
I think that he was well spoken also helped make a great imprewsion. Not at all an issue with the direction they took, he was just a very impressive interview with the tape to back it up.
Quote:
worth the price of admission. wilkins and #39 is tempting but if you look at what was still on the board it's less clear. the most tempting alternative wasnt a player but the trade the rams did giving up 2 seconds for 1, which then pushes that pick below nubin any way. also would have voided the mckinney comp pick next year so not totally free.
there is a reasonable argument both ways but i think an edge bender like burns is just too hard to find elsewhere. also a couple years younger than wilkins. there's a reason he got tagged and had trade value, players like him at that age do not hit the open market.
since last summer it's been clear schoen didnt want to bring barkley back. i hope motor works out and does a good job but i think schoen dropped the ball on that one. the deal barkley's team proposed last year, encompassing the $10m from tag, was fair. ed berry clearly saw the writing on the wall and i thought it was interesting when he asked schoen point blank if they wanted to move on he answered like natalie imbruglia. i give him credit for taking the less comfortable path, but i dont think that's going to provide much respite if barkley gains 2k yards and 10+ tds in philly this year. hopefully that OL implodes without kelce. schoen's entire strategy in that negotiation was reactive vs proactive. i would have liked to see more of daboll's thoughts on that but it seems like the giants put a wall up on that.
Can't operate on the basis on what Philly may do. That's how we ended up with Ben McAdoo.
i wasnt resigning barkley to keep him from philly, i was resigning him last summer bc i thought the price was reasonable for a good player. we have no way of knowing what was doable with the giants (i.e. would he have taken less than he ended up with before hitting open market?) but the way philly did his contract the cap hit is the same this year as singletarys, if they wanted to bring barkley back there were easy ways to do it.
I think Schoen offered him what was a fair deal last year (and based on what we know, it seems like it was). I think he personally got frustrated with Saquon's (and Roc Nation's stance). "Took 10 years off my life." Left a bad taste in his mouth.
Saquon's demeanor ever since his final press interaction seemed to suggest he was done with the Giants. The phone call on the show last night was even worse. Saquon was glad they let him go.
Barkley offered the giants what ended up being a deal a lot lower than what he got, so is it not fair to also say barkley offered the nyg a "fair deal"?
if you worked hard for a company for 6 years and by the end they werent even making offers to keep you because they were torn whether you were worth it, even after you'd done things to make clear you wanted to stay and made them a fair offer, wouldnt you find that frustrating?
schoen is the one with the power to decide whether barkley would stay, not the other way around and it's clear he had no enthusiasm about the prospect of paying a 27 year old rb. as far as the negotiation taking years off schoen's life, suck it up that's the job. how many years off FO lives do we think strahan took back in the day? odell? etc.
Quote:
In comment 16550787 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 16550786 Shecky said:
Quote:
It’s clear, he’s more OBJ than Victor Cruz, personality wise, right? Most alph receivers are like that, which was mentioned in last nights episode.
But they said they like him, but need to do more digging into his personality etc. the fact that they drafted him, tells you everything you need to know. They dug, and drafted him. Over an almost equally talented WR who couldn’t be more clean personality wise.
Clear, the FO was comfortable with Nabers personality.
I'd be shocked if Victor Cruz didn't go to strip clubs.
I’d be even more shocked if the Giants passed on a player because he liked to look at tits.
That's not the concern. It's that he knowingly broke the law to do it. And he already had a gun arrest. Coincidence or pattern? Too early to tell.
So, Giants should avoid drafting anyone who enters a bar or strip club underage?????
We may be 0-17, but listen to our choir boys sing 🤣
- Mara was the one that wanted Barkley, not Schoen/Daboll
- Barkley claimed we never made him an offer, he lied, it just wasn't as high as the Eagles
- Schoen clearly takes the "modern NFL" stance that RB's shouldn't have a large cap allocation
I wish Barkley well in his next stop and have no hard feelings against him, I also wouldn't have taken that contract to play so close to home. But we need to accept a very simple reality (maybe Mara needs to accept it): We didn't win with Barkley, so rather than double down on a proven loosing strategy, its best to move on to something else.
- Mara was the one that wanted Barkley, not Schoen/Daboll
- Barkley claimed we never made him an offer, he lied, it just wasn't as high as the Eagles
- Schoen clearly takes the "modern NFL" stance that RB's shouldn't have a large cap allocation
I wish Barkley well in his next stop and have no hard feelings against him, I also wouldn't have taken that contract to play so close to home. But we need to accept a very simple reality (maybe Mara needs to accept it): We didn't win with Barkley, so rather than double down on a proven loosing strategy, its best to move on to something else.
It doesn't bug me, but Saquon clearly lied. It's on tape.
Quote:
"We need to get around this kid and see if we can work with him because there is a lot to his personality,” area scout Scott Hamel said.
Is this an indication they were/are concerned about the high maintenance rumor (see: strip club video)? Or they think he just has an outgoing personality?
I was thinking the same thing k2! I really wanted Rome because he just seemed like a professional and NOT a diva. Even on the show, that kid is ready to go! Here's to hoping Nabers will not get in trouble in NYC.
this is speculation, but in his interview Rome said all the exact right things if you would have scripted out the right answers perfectly - and i get the feeling with daboll he connects with guys who he views as more real/edgy. barkley was more the former too. i think daboll likes more of the pirate ship ethos.
re nabers there were valid questions w/ him (esp the gun charge on bourbon street). things like that and the strip club are the types of things that come with picking a younger player without the understanding of what its like to have the kind of media attention he's going to get. in interviews he sounds all about football so we have to hope it's just a learning curve.
i thought rossetti made the strongest push a couple times, and he's both the guy in charge of pro scouting and obviously ended up pretty prescient re the eagles.
Quote:
is a controversial subject on this site, but in the first two episodes, it is very telling to me that the two guys making the biggest push to keep Saquon are Mara and McDonald. (and this is after the edits were approved... makes you wonder what they left out).
i thought rossetti made the strongest push a couple times, and he's both the guy in charge of pro scouting and obviously ended up pretty prescient re the eagles.
You are correct. Rosetti did too in that one meeting with Schoen in his office.
Quote:
In comment 16550757 Sean said:
Quote:
I agree with Schoen complaining about how hard it was dealing with franchising Barkley. It's part of the job.
Schoen should have taken the "test the market" approach with Barkley last year. It would have been better since the RB market was worse last year too. Franchise Jones and decide if you want to match any offer Barkley got.
I admit it would have been more challenging doing that off of 2022.
I agree with Biteymax above... it's clear Mara uses passive aggressive pressure on the GM. I'm not sure Mara would have OKed them letting Saquon test the market last year (players who test the market are usually gone).
I'm coming close to tagging him with the moniker of "Meddling Mara"
This is the essence of the problem. It’s not passive aggression, it’s the boss doing what bosses do when they hire a direct report/decision maker that doesn’t have clear direction and every decision is a series of hallway conversations making sure how much support the boss is prepared to supply.
That embarrassing whining in episode 1 when Mara considered #26 leaving is exhibit “Z”. I’m sure the previous 25 exhibits were similar stomach gurgling over Schoen suggesting they trade him last season or let him similarly test the market.
Schoen is in an extreme “manage up” case study.
Praying they put the Ravens on camera in an offseason. Bisciotti and Ozzie invented the “we love you and want the best for you, but we have a cap to manage so please bring your best deal back and we’ll talk”
With respect to Giants having a final edit - it’s almost as if they intentionally left in scenes to make it clear the Mara family wanted to pay Saquon. Comes across as setting up Schoen as the bad guy
Maybe I’m over thinking it, but it came across as thinly veiled pettiness to me
I still can’t get past the “what’s our identity on offense without Saquon” from Ep 1.
Our identity with Saquon has been one of the most pathetic offenses in the NFL. How is that something to cling to?
Quote:
I think Schoen offered him what was a fair deal last year (and based on what we know, it seems like it was). I think he personally got frustrated with Saquon's (and Roc Nation's stance). "Took 10 years off my life." Left a bad taste in his mouth.
Saquon's demeanor ever since his final press interaction seemed to suggest he was done with the Giants. The phone call on the show last night was even worse. Saquon was glad they let him go.
Barkley offered the giants what ended up being a deal a lot lower than what he got, so is it not fair to also say barkley offered the nyg a "fair deal"?
if you worked hard for a company for 6 years and by the end they werent even making offers to keep you because they were torn whether you were worth it, even after you'd done things to make clear you wanted to stay and made them a fair offer, wouldnt you find that frustrating?
The difference here though is that since Barkley was drafted, the Giants paid him more money than any other in the NFL got paid, except for McCaffrey and Elliot. Because he was the #2 overall pick, Barkley's rookie contract was as big or bigger than practically every other RB's 2nd contract. That Barkley should be "frustrated" that the Giants paid nearly $49 million is not reasonable.
And let's be real, Barkley didn't deserve a contract comparable to McCaffrey's 2nd contract because Barkley is not as good a player. And Elliot's 2nd contract is a warning, not something to follow.
They probably liked Wilkins. But obviously not more than Burns since they could have signed him for less than Burns, and kept the draft capital. But I think the threat of Wilkins is how we went from two 1’s to “at least two twos” to a two and five.
i think this is probably exactly right. having his college teammate dex and having previously had him paired with a big cap chunk to leonard williams probably made it a pretty strong argument.
The difference here though is that since Barkley was drafted, the Giants paid him more money than any other in the NFL got paid, except for McCaffrey and Elliot. Because he was the #2 overall pick, Barkley's rookie contract was as big or bigger than practically every other RB's 2nd contract. That Barkley should be "frustrated" that the Giants paid nearly $49 million is not reasonable.
And let's be real, Barkley didn't deserve a contract comparable to McCaffrey's 2nd contract because Barkley is not as good a player. And Elliot's 2nd contract is a warning, not something to follow.
what the giants chose to pay barkley in the past (on a slot rookie deal) has no bearing on what his value was past that contract. last year the giants tagged him at 10m gtd for 1 year, the negotiation started there.
and barkley's contract ask of the giants last year was not a CMC deal. it was less than he got from philly, which also wasnt a CMC deal.
I have always wondered if they did pre-briefs and this confirmed it.
Keep this in mind moving forward before every press conference.
Yup, I loved that. I worked at a large media company in a past life and I was around some of the bigwigs sitting with the PR team and prepping them for questions and how to answer/evade/redirect.
I'm not surprised by this, because when Schoen says he doesn't listen to sports radio, I believe him. So he needed to be coached up on the conversations on twitter. It also gives you a perspective if Schoen or Daboll ever go off script or get stunned by something, you can tell that it wasn't on their prep and they have to think on their feet.
This show is a gift to the dog days of July.
Quote:
but the pre-brief between Schoen and the PR department was gold.
I have always wondered if they did pre-briefs and this confirmed it.
Keep this in mind moving forward before every press conference.
Yup, I loved that. I worked at a large media company in a past life and I was around some of the bigwigs sitting with the PR team and prepping them for questions and how to answer/evade/redirect.
I'm not surprised by this, because when Schoen says he doesn't listen to sports radio, I believe him. So he needed to be coached up on the conversations on twitter. It also gives you a perspective if Schoen or Daboll ever go off script or get stunned by something, you can tell that it wasn't on their prep and they have to think on their feet.
The jokes about X/Twitter were funny... I wonder if that PR guy reads BBI. (he he he)
When Daboll says he used copyrighted music so they couldn't tape him, it makes you wonder about all of the REALLY juicy stuff.
- Mara was the one that wanted Barkley, not Schoen/Daboll
- Barkley claimed we never made him an offer, he lied, it just wasn't as high as the Eagles
- Schoen clearly takes the "modern NFL" stance that RB's shouldn't have a large cap allocation
I can't tell if Schoen finally had an epiphany on that or it's always been his position. Because there were signs/facts that Schoen would have signed Barkley to a multi-year deal, and the differences between his position and Team Barkley's wasn't huge. And I don't think that would have been a good outcome.
There were a lot of competing interests at Giants Way HQ on Barkley. Way too many people, especially the family, are stuck in the 80s with their view of the RB position and love the idea of marketing SB.
Pay Wilkins and draft an edge with that #2 ? I kind of think I prefer that. Wilkins and Dex would be a dominant duo because they would be force multipliers for each other. Who will you double?
I had thought that Wilkins was just not a realistic option. I was wrong.
Nabers came across very authentic in that interview. Was honest about losing, and about wanting the ball.
If you say you are torn, you already know the answer.
If you say you are torn, you already know the answer.
Barkley's agent*
Daniels was saying that he is used to playing for a program with enormous expectations.
And I could easily argue LSU has the highest expectations in the country. If you don't agree, you don't understand the football culture in Louisiana...
I didn't think he came off as well as Maye, but there are some who think he did. Shows you how subjective this is.
Maye was much more impressive and quicker in response to the plays. Doesn't mean he will be better. But he came across better.