best part of this episode was seeing the REAL Brian Daboll.
Also, there is no way Schoen has that conversation with the Patriots unless he was interested in moving up. He may not thought it was likely they would trade back, but the Giants were interested in moving up.
The private talk between Schoen and Brandon Brown was excellent too.
That is hilarious. We know he wasn’t interested because he didn’t move up. All Schoen did was let them know that he wanted to know if anyone was trying to move up ahead of him. They basically told Schoen, everybody wants to know that too. Same conversation with a number of teams. Interested parties make offers. Patriots were not moving that pick. Please stop. All of the people thinking the Giants wanted to replace Jones were fucking soooo wrong and this show is cementing that view. Terps must dying. Funny, funny shit. THEY WANTED THE WR and it is obvious.
Ummmm... no.
The only reason to even have that discussion was to nab a QB. I don't think the Giants were overly optimistic about the Pats moving out of that pick, but they clearly explored the option.
And even in public pressers, their support of Jones during this process was lukewarm at best.
Moreover, I did not like the Daniels answer about playing in Death Valley. Whole different ball game when it comes to playing in a big market in the NFL. Also, he spent half his career at ASU.
I have no issue with that answer. The pressure playing for most SEC teams is not really different than playing in NYC, which gets way overblown, especially the Giants.
Agree with this. At LSU expectations are high and the fna base is beyond passionate. For the Giants, expectations are low and the fan base quickly focuses on the Yankees when the Giants suck...at least that portion of NY that gives a crap about sports.
When the Giants lose fans don't go to the coaches house and put "for sale" signs on his lawn. I would argue there is much more pressure to win at OSU, LSU, Alabama, etc., than there is to win with the NY Giants.
100%. Every single LSU game is in a fully packed stadium of over 100K people, Giants stadium is barely ever at capacity and when it is it’s not even heavily Giants fans but always a lot of visitors. It’s overrated. SEC schools and everyone within the state are nuts about college sports more passionate than NFL fans are.
Playing at home at front of those fans is scaRY? QBs dropping back at LSU at start most home game are favored by how much? Unless they play Bama or Georgia they can make sandwich back there.
Doug Rush
@TheDougRush
A few takeaways from the second episode of HBO Hard Knocks: Offseason with the New York Giants:
***SPOILERS*** if you didn’t watch tonight’s episode, you might want to skip this if do you intend to watch it.
•Brian Daboll definitely seemed to really like Malik Nabers even before they spoke with him at the Combine. He really liked that he hates losing more than he likes winning.
•Daboll and Joe Schoen also seemed to really like Drake Maye when they asked him to dissect a certain pass play with the terminology.
•Joe Schoen seemed interested in wanting to move up to No. 3 in the 2024 NFL Draft and went directly to the Patriots to tell them that if they were thinking about moving out of the pick, to call them.
•The Giants, especially Daboll and defensive coordinator Shane Bowen, were really high on Tyler Nubin, so it’s not a surprise that the Giants targeted him in the second round with Xavier McKinney leaving as a free agent.
•After the initial talk he had with Panthers GM Dan Morgan that planted the seed, the idea for trading for Brian Burns was definitely in Joe Schoen’s head and he was floating trade packages to his people to gauge their opinions. He seemed more interested in trading for Burns over pursuing Christian Wilkins as a free agent.
•Schoen talks with both Saquon Barkley and his agent to mention how they’re going to let him test the market and to come back to them to see if he still wants to be a Giant, which Saquon said he appreciated. Schoen said he wanted a chance to match a possible offer if one was made to him.
•Schoen seemed like he did want Saquon back, but at his price and he likely felt the running back market might not be there in free agency. But given the contract he got in March, that clearly wasn’t the case.
•The next episode previews the continued negotiations heading into free agency between the Giants and Saquon; the last thing mentioned in the preview was Schoen saying: “I offered him a 3-year deal giving him $12.5 million APY (average per year) and $25 million guaranteed.”
•Saquon’s deal with the Eagles: 3 years, $37.5M ($12.5M APY) with $26M guaranteed.
With that said, definitely can’t wait to see how the next episode goes.
Rosetti's comment was a bit of a throw away not an official designation.
so which is it? was his 1 "generic" comment out of a who knows how long meeting "a throwaway"? or was it the negative reflection on him the clickbait you've been choking on for the last week and continue to be implying?
I think you have your head so far up your own ass, and are so thoroughly choking on the undigested fragments of PFF screen shots you subsist on, that you missed that my posts on this thread were sarcastic and in good humor.
I also think Rosetti made a silly comment, that wasn't factually accurate as it relates to 2023.
I also hope now I ruin another day for you, because you're a butthead, you smell bad, and you don't have any friends.
and enlightening as the show is. As a Giant fan for 60 years there is so much I want to discuss about past being prologue.
I don't have the time now. I did try to quick read the entire thread. I'm going to read it again and watch the show a 2nd time.
I would like to point out one thing I read on this thread that I think is incorrect.
Quote:
There wasn't a Mara anywhere to be found at the combine. The concept that old man Mara is making any consequential decision on player personnel is a joke. Schoen is running this team.
I'm not sure who said there was no Mara in the room at the combine. I assume they meant John since for Hard Knocks purposes Chris Mara doesn't seem to exist on or off camera and it's obvious that Tim McDonnell was there. Watch at 13:30 when the player interviews begin in the suite. Is that not John Mara in the light grey sweater (sitting next to the woman in back sweatshirt with glasses) reading the Giants scouting binder they showed earlier in the episode? He's back on camera in the same spot at 21:07 too.
The Mara family management style is exactly what I expected and believed about the way the Giants have done football business since Ernie retired and ended the George Young structure. There are so many examples and parallels to the way Wellington ran the team it's like bad deja vu all over again for me.
best part of this episode was seeing the REAL Brian Daboll.
Also, there is no way Schoen has that conversation with the Patriots unless he was interested in moving up. He may not thought it was likely they would trade back, but the Giants were interested in moving up.
The private talk between Schoen and Brandon Brown was excellent too.
That is hilarious. We know he wasn’t interested because he didn’t move up. All Schoen did was let them know that he wanted to know if anyone was trying to move up ahead of him. They basically told Schoen, everybody wants to know that too. Same conversation with a number of teams. Interested parties make offers. Patriots were not moving that pick. Please stop. All of the people thinking the Giants wanted to replace Jones were fucking soooo wrong and this show is cementing that view. Terps must dying. Funny, funny shit. THEY WANTED THE WR and it is obvious.
Ummmm... no.
The only reason to even have that discussion was to nab a QB. I don't think the Giants were overly optimistic about the Pats moving out of that pick, but they clearly explored the option.
And even in public pressers, their support of Jones during this process was lukewarm at best.
Context Eric. Patriots needed a QB. Negotiating 101. They have ALL the leverage. You want that pick, you gotta make an offer, I am shocked you don’t understand negotiating better than that. No way the Patriots let anything out of the bag first. Understand, any team that wanted 3 was going to have to come to the Patriots, that deal wasn’t happening any other way. GMEN desperately wanted a WR, I bet we find out they pick Daniel’s choice.
Rosetti's comment was a bit of a throw away not an official designation.
so which is it? was his 1 "generic" comment out of a who knows how long meeting "a throwaway"? or was it the negative reflection on him the clickbait you've been choking on for the last week and continue to be implying?
I think you have your head so far up your own ass, and are so thoroughly choking on the undigested fragments of PFF screen shots you subsist on, that you missed that my posts on this thread were sarcastic and in good humor.
I also think Rosetti made a silly comment, that wasn't factually accurate as it relates to 2023.
I also hope now I ruin another day for you, because you're a butthead, you smell bad, and you don't have any friends.
finally something we agree on, i definitely missed your sarcasm and humor.
it's a little weird to project that these discussions = ruining a day, but if that's how you view it id maybe suggest you consider a healthier form of entertainment?
they did make an offer. It was widely reported. Teams don't make firm offers until right before the draft, and often during the draft.
First…Does reported equal truth? Or only when it supports Eric’s point? I disagree it was widely reported and if it was. What was they offer made?
A bunch of national and local reporters posted that the Giants offered multiple picks to move up. The Patriots also confirmed the Giants were one of the teams they were talking to on draft day.
I'm not sure why you are taking umbrage with this.
boy does this thread look stupid now... Not good for Rosetti - ( New Window )
There will likely be some of the comments on this very thread that won't look good by the end of this series as well.
We all need to remember these are small glimpses of a months long process, that we're not even half way through yet. To make any definitive statement based upon 2 40 minute, edited shows is really jumping way out on a limb.
I have a different view of JS on Barkley... He didn't think he was going to get offered over 10-12 mil after last years market. He asked you really think he is going to get offered big at age 27 at which point Chris was like yes he is the only difference maker. I don't think he was convinced. I thought he was thinking Barkley would get a 3/30-3/33 offer at most. Why he thought go get an offer and when you see it won't be that high we can match or talk. As for the can you give me your word you will come back to me, Barkley sounded pissed he was questioning him.
if you watched last night, we already know that Daniel Jones likes Nabers.
I think the Giants would have drafted Maye if they had been picking at #3. They weren't. So they "settled" for a guy who they also really liked.
It is great that you think that but there is nothing to support it. Everything that happened is direct evidence to the contrary. I suspect we will see the draft room? Do you think they make a serious offer to NE. Friendly wager right now between you and me. If they call the Patriots when NE is on the clock, they do not offer anything close to what would be needed to get a team DESPERATE for a QB off that pick. I suspect they only offer enough to move up to get the WR they covet.
That prompted the New York Giants and Minnesota Vikings to make last-ditch trade offers to the Patriots.
Per Sports Illustrated’s Albert Breer, the Giants offered the Patriots their 2024 sixth-round pick, along with their 2025 first-rounder, while the Vikings offered three first-round picks in total, including the No. 11 and No. 23 picks this year, along with a 2025 first.
Breer wrote:
The Minnesota Vikings and New York Giants did make offers to the New England Patriots for the No. 3 pick to take Drake Maye. Earlier this week, Minnesota offered the Nos. 11 and 23 picks, and its 2025 first-rounder, with pick swaps favoring the Vikings as part of the proposal; and that offer ticked up with New England on the clock. The Giants, meanwhile, did wind up putting their 2025 first-round pick in their offer to move from No. 6 to No. 3. Here are the massive trade offers the Patriots reportedly passed up for Drake Maye - ( New Window )
A source said the New York Giants had offered the No. 6 overall pick and their 2025 first-round pick, while the Vikings were ultimately willing to part with No. 11 and No. 23, along with a 2025 first-rounder, in exchange for the third pick and two mid-round selections from New England. How the Patriots decided QB Drake Maye was their future - ( New Window )
Observations are that I really love your HC. Think he’s the real deal and will one day win a SB! Maybe not in NYC though !
Nabors appears to have some traits similar to another guy , Odell!
Jones will have to get the ball to him early and often to keep him happy!
Difference I see here is that Daboll has the personality to handle Nabers much better than Coughlin ( who was on the way out) McAdoo or Judge ever did with Beckham.
if you watched last night, we already know that Daniel Jones likes Nabers.
I think the Giants would have drafted Maye if they had been picking at #3. They weren't. So they "settled" for a guy who they also really liked.
It is great that you think that but there is nothing to support it. Everything that happened is direct evidence to the contrary. I suspect we will see the draft room? Do you think they make a serious offer to NE. Friendly wager right now between you and me. If they call the Patriots when NE is on the clock, they do not offer anything close to what would be needed to get a team DESPERATE for a QB off that pick. I suspect they only offer enough to move up to get the WR they covet.
If I am desperate for a QB I am in bed with NE, I ain’t hoping they call me for a chance at a match. They do not appear desperate at all. They seem like a team that decided it was drafting a WR at 6 and REALLY liked three of them. I think they settled in on Nabers and everything with NE was to get information. Eric, we know they wanted a WR more than a QB. It is not debatable.
I am not sure why folks are having trouble understanding that the situation the Giants were dealing with last year was not a binary one. They clearly heavily scouted the top 2024 QBs, especially early in the year when they were in fact sitting on a top 2-3 pick and would have had a shot at one of the top three guys. Indeed, I suspect they would have taken any of the three in a heartbeat if they had a chance, not necessarily because they desperately wanted to replace Jones, but because they would have had a shot at a potential elite QB something that doesn't come along every day in the NFL. Once the order was set they had to pretty much realize that neither Chicago not Wash was going to move off the 1-2 picks, but did make an offer for #3, although my guess is they would have known down deep that the Patriots weren't going any where either or if they were it would be for a huge package like the one the Vikings were offering. However, once that failed it appears Option B was to stick with Jones. Had they in fact desperately wanted to replace Jones they would almost assuredly have taken one of the other QBs at #6 (or at least somewhere in the draft.)
I am not sure why folks are having trouble understanding that the situation the Giants were dealing with last year was not a binary one. They clearly heavily scouted the top 2024 QBs, especially early in the year when they were in fact sitting on a top 2-3 pick and would have had a shot at one of the top three guys. Indeed, I suspect they would have taken any of the three in a heartbeat if they had a chance, not necessarily because they desperately wanted to replace Jones, but because they would have had a shot at a potential elite QB something that doesn't come along every day in the NFL. Once the order was set they had to pretty much realize that neither Chicago not Wash was going to move off the 1-2 picks, but did make an offer for #3, although my guess is they would have known down deep that the Patriots weren't going any where either or if they were it would be for a huge package like the one the Vikings were offering. However, once that failed it appears Option B was to stick with Jones. Had they in fact desperately wanted to replace Jones they would almost assuredly have taken one of the other QBs at #6 (or at least somewhere in the draft.)
I also hope now I ruin another day for you, because you're a butthead, you smell bad, and you don't have any friends.
finally something we agree on, i definitely missed your sarcasm and humor.
I'm glad we agree you're a butthead.
you can't even write a proper insult without twisting my words.
Eric, sometimes I think the joke is so squarely sitting on your chest -- it might the lack of oxygen keeping you from understanding -- it is in fact on you.
If I am desperate for a QB I am in bed with NE, I ain’t hoping they call me for a chance at a match. They do not appear desperate at all. They seem like a team that decided it was drafting a WR at 6 and REALLY liked three of them. I think they settled in on Nabers and everything with NE was to get information. Eric, we know they wanted a WR more than a QB. It is not debatable.
I also hope now I ruin another day for you, because you're a butthead, you smell bad, and you don't have any friends.
finally something we agree on, i definitely missed your sarcasm and humor.
I'm glad we agree you're a butthead.
you can't even write a proper insult without twisting my words.
Eric, sometimes I think the joke is so squarely sitting on your chest -- it might the lack of oxygen keeping you from understanding -- it is in fact on you.
Can you two cut it out? You are ruining a good thread.
I am not sure why folks are having trouble understanding that the situation the Giants were dealing with last year was not a binary one. They clearly heavily scouted the top 2024 QBs, especially early in the year when they were in fact sitting on a top 2-3 pick and would have had a shot at one of the top three guys. Indeed, I suspect they would have taken any of the three in a heartbeat if they had a chance, not necessarily because they desperately wanted to replace Jones, but because they would have had a shot at a potential elite QB something that doesn't come along every day in the NFL. Once the order was set they had to pretty much realize that neither Chicago not Wash was going to move off the 1-2 picks, but did make an offer for #3, although my guess is they would have known down deep that the Patriots weren't going any where either or if they were it would be for a huge package like the one the Vikings were offering. However, once that failed it appears Option B was to stick with Jones. Had they in fact desperately wanted to replace Jones they would almost assuredly have taken one of the other QBs at #6 (or at least somewhere in the draft.)
This is my take.
I agree with this. It makes the most logical sense. Aside from the QB discussion, I find the decision between Odunze and Nabers fascinating.
the Giants offered the Patriots their 2024 sixth-round pick, along with their 2025 first-rounder
= 2024 1st, 6th, and 2025 1st?
I think its a typo...1st rounder in 2024 (6th overall) and 2025 first rounder.
BTW, the other report is from Mike Reiss, who is well known in Boston.
Widely? Sounds like a couple.
We KNOW the results of the draft.
KNOWING THAT we drafted Nabers, replaced our backup with a less accomplished QB and failed to move up or draft a QB…
Is it not infinitely more likely that we were actually doing some things to disguise our true intentions.
You don’t think the team tried any deception at all?
It seems like a few of you are watching this with the intent to find evidence they wanted to replace JOnes. Terps and BW are disgusted because they are smart enough to know the truth.
They like Daniel Jones and there was no desire or legitimate attempt to replace him.
Had they in fact desperately wanted to replace Jones they would almost assuredly have taken one of the other QBs at #6 (or at least somewhere in the draft.)
I think this is spot on.
I think they felt Maye was a very attractive prospect, and willing to upgrade. But that wasn't some deep vote of no confidence in Jones.
I stopped at two, do you want me to keep going. Garafolo reported the Giants wanted Maye. Isn't he the gold standard around here?
Again, I'm not sure why you are so passionate about one take when there is evidence that the Giants not only had discussion with the Patriots to move up (on tape now) but actual offers involving two first round picks.
The Patriot reporters are reporting the same.
At some point, you need to take the loss.
RE: RE: RE: Walking and chewing gum at the same time
I am not sure why folks are having trouble understanding that the situation the Giants were dealing with last year was not a binary one. They clearly heavily scouted the top 2024 QBs, especially early in the year when they were in fact sitting on a top 2-3 pick and would have had a shot at one of the top three guys. Indeed, I suspect they would have taken any of the three in a heartbeat if they had a chance, not necessarily because they desperately wanted to replace Jones, but because they would have had a shot at a potential elite QB something that doesn't come along every day in the NFL. Once the order was set they had to pretty much realize that neither Chicago not Wash was going to move off the 1-2 picks, but did make an offer for #3, although my guess is they would have known down deep that the Patriots weren't going any where either or if they were it would be for a huge package like the one the Vikings were offering. However, once that failed it appears Option B was to stick with Jones. Had they in fact desperately wanted to replace Jones they would almost assuredly have taken one of the other QBs at #6 (or at least somewhere in the draft.)
This is my take.
I agree with this. It makes the most logical sense. Aside from the QB discussion, I find the decision between Odunze and Nabers fascinating.
agree with all the above, especially the odunze/nabers part. through most of the process odunze was the non-qb i was probably most attached to so im really looking forward to seeing how much they talked about both of them and what ended up separating them. the consensus seemed to shift heavily to nabers the closer things got to the draft.
What an employee says about his employees, and what he says to his employees always have to be completely separated. I get that, but if I was a corner on the roster and heard my boss saying, "put me in at corner", I would probably feel a little hurt by that, especially if I was 22, 23 years old. I wonder if this show will hurt his credibility within the team.
I have no problem with people pushing back and asking questions. You don't want group think. That's why I actually didn't mind McDonald's comments in Ep. 1.
However, it's very clear that Mara's wishes at the very least, have to be danced around with. The response by some will be, "he has every right, he's the owner." My response to that is Mara is a lot like George Costanza. Every instinct he has is wrong.
I agree that a healthy work environment should encourage people to speak freely and make their case. But that still doesn't take away from my point that there are people in the building who have antiquated views about the NFL. And they have a seat at the table where decisions are made.
Many of us aren't surprised by this reveal, but this confirms suspicions.
Thus far, these two episodes have made it more clear - to me - that Schoen absolutely swings the final gavel on football decisions. But when it comes to dealing with Mara, he has to navigate very carefully to get him on-board.
I stopped at two, do you want me to keep going. Garafolo reported the Giants wanted Maye. Isn't he the gold standard around here?
Again, I'm not sure why you are so passionate about one take when there is evidence that the Giants not only had discussion with the Patriots to move up (on tape now) but actual offers involving two first round picks.
The Patriot reporters are reporting the same.
At some point, you need to take the loss.
Lol Brother, they did NOTHING to upgrade the position. TT is much better than Lock. It is not comparable. One reporter reported and the rest followed. If you think that means they tried Seriosly to get Maye ,I am not here to cure you of ignorance. Have at it. They were even interested in his choice at WR. Sounds they were really keyed up to get his replacement. Y’all had big dreams of a new QB becuase you thought you knew.
You did not know.
Daniel Jones is still QB1.
So sad for some of you.
Kisses.
I am suggesting that if an offer was made, it not to actually make the trade but keep teams from moving ahead of them for a WR.
It is actually a very coveted position on draft day.
I have no problem with people pushing back and asking questions. You don't want group think. That's why I actually didn't mind McDonald's comments in Ep. 1.
However, it's very clear that Mara's wishes at the very least, have to be danced around with. The response by some will be, "he has every right, he's the owner." My response to that is Mara is a lot like George Costanza. Every instinct he has is wrong.
I agree that a healthy work environment should encourage people to speak freely and make their case. But that still doesn't take away from my point that there are people in the building who have antiquated views about the NFL. And they have a seat at the table where decisions are made.
Many of us aren't surprised by this reveal, but this confirms suspicions.
Thus far, these two episodes have made it more clear - to me - that Schoen absolutely swings the final gavel on football decisions. But when it comes to dealing with Mara, he has to navigate very carefully to get him on-board.
What an employee says about his employees, and what he says to his employees always have to be completely separated. I get that, but if I was a corner on the roster and heard my boss saying, "put me in at corner", I would probably feel a little hurt by that, especially if I was 22, 23 years old. I wonder if this show will hurt his credibility within the team.
I think the Giants want a CB, but that is mainly based on Schoen's comments in episode one. I didn't take that comment as a slight. I took it as, "with a really good pass rush, who plays CB matters less." Which is true.
best part of this episode was seeing the REAL Brian Daboll.
Also, there is no way Schoen has that conversation with the Patriots unless he was interested in moving up. He may not thought it was likely they would trade back, but the Giants were interested in moving up.
The private talk between Schoen and Brandon Brown was excellent too.
That is hilarious. We know he wasn’t interested because he didn’t move up. All Schoen did was let them know that he wanted to know if anyone was trying to move up ahead of him. They basically told Schoen, everybody wants to know that too. Same conversation with a number of teams. Interested parties make offers. Patriots were not moving that pick. Please stop. All of the people thinking the Giants wanted to replace Jones were fucking soooo wrong and this show is cementing that view. Terps must dying. Funny, funny shit. THEY WANTED THE WR and it is obvious.
Ummmm... no.
The only reason to even have that discussion was to nab a QB. I don't think the Giants were overly optimistic about the Pats moving out of that pick, but they clearly explored the option.
And even in public pressers, their support of Jones during this process was lukewarm at best.
Context Eric. Patriots needed a QB. Negotiating 101. They have ALL the leverage. You want that pick, you gotta make an offer, I am shocked you don’t understand negotiating better than that. No way the Patriots let anything out of the bag first. Understand, any team that wanted 3 was going to have to come to the Patriots, that deal wasn’t happening any other way. GMEN desperately wanted a WR, I bet we find out they pick Daniel’s choice.
That’s not necessarily true. If the Vikings made an offer to NE that the Pats were willing to accept, you don’t think they’d call Schoen first to see what he’d offer? It would be negligence not to.
Really interested in how the final negotiations play out with Saquon… I don’t want to jump the gun but geez either Schoen was BS’n all along and didn’t want to bring him back at around $10M per or Saquon really just up and left and threw away the ring of honor for an extra million/2million which would be pretty rough on him considering how many more millions he made from the Giants due to them drafting him #2 overall vs him slipping to #4 or even later… did he jump ship and join the opps AND throw away the ring of honor just for a million or 2 more??? If so then wow
It seems like a few of you are watching this with the intent to find evidence they wanted to replace JOnes. Terps and BW are disgusted because they are smart enough to know the truth.
Since you mentioned me, I think there was interest in moving up to the three slot to grab a QB that met their qualifications. But I'm still not sure how strong that interest actually was. Thus far, these episodes have not revealed that, just that Schoen gave Eliot Wolf a heads-up that he may be interested as the draft nears.
Until I see or hear more evidence, I think Jones was still a strong option for Schoen/Daboll. And they were comfortable moving forward with him - assuming health - by adding more infantry if they couldn't get their price to move up.
I could hear Schoen actually saying this:
"We are close enough in this draft to get a younger, more talented QB who would be on a rookie contract. So, with Jones's history of injuries and inconsistent play, we should explore that..."
With or without Mara, Schoen and Daboll had a serious discussion about Daniel Jones' future. I'm talking big picture, strategic level thinking for the franchise. And we're not privy to that discussion for obvious reasons.
Or two, the Giants are more winging it, exploring options but mainly reacting to the cards dealt to them.
I personally have no idea which is taking place.
RE: DHOS a few missing ingredients in the calculation
"So the question is would you rather have Wilkins at $27.5M/year or Burns at $28.2M/year minus second and fifth round picks?"
Pay Wilkins and draft an edge with that #2 ? I kind of think I prefer that. Wilkins and Dex would be a dominant duo because they would be force multipliers for each other. Who will you double?
I had thought that Wilkins was just not a realistic option. I was wrong.
at #39 it ended up there were no obvious edges left. the players who went from #39 to the Nubin pick at #47 were:
Braden Fiske (pick traded to rams for #52 and next years 2nd)
Dejean
Kool-Aid
Lassiter
Max Melton
Jackson Powers-Johnson
Edgerin Cooper
Jonathan Brooks
so im not even sure they wouldnt have just taken Nubin at #39.
the miss was the Rams trade because they gave up big value to move up 13 slots, but that wasnt predictable ahead of time.
also if you sign Wilkins as a FA as opposed to a Burns trade, you lose the McKinney comp pick which will probably be around pick #140 next year. Which isn't nothing.
very close call either way, either was a good player to add but i prefer the 2 years younger edge rusher bc i think thats the harder thing to find.
Yeah, good point. you and BBI Eric are right, but I was (didn't pay attention when we didn't have that pick) assuming that there was some form of draft slot worthy edge rusher at that point. In reality I agree that more than likely would have put Nubin at that spot. Just saying, Wilkins + Dex would be a thing to see, a real problem for offensive lines.
But, very possible Burns + KT are force multipliers to each other also, so no real issues with that move.
is how much pressure did ownership put on Schoen and Daboll to retain both Jones and Barkley last year. It's clear Mara and McDonnell didn't want SB to go this year (same with Rosetti).
I heard it as he didn't technically offer him a deal, because SB didn't bring that offer back, and later he's saying, well shit, if I had offered this, would he have come back?
Quote:
best part of this episode was seeing the REAL Brian Daboll.
Also, there is no way Schoen has that conversation with the Patriots unless he was interested in moving up. He may not thought it was likely they would trade back, but the Giants were interested in moving up.
The private talk between Schoen and Brandon Brown was excellent too.
That is hilarious. We know he wasn’t interested because he didn’t move up. All Schoen did was let them know that he wanted to know if anyone was trying to move up ahead of him. They basically told Schoen, everybody wants to know that too. Same conversation with a number of teams. Interested parties make offers. Patriots were not moving that pick. Please stop. All of the people thinking the Giants wanted to replace Jones were fucking soooo wrong and this show is cementing that view. Terps must dying. Funny, funny shit. THEY WANTED THE WR and it is obvious.
Ummmm... no.
The only reason to even have that discussion was to nab a QB. I don't think the Giants were overly optimistic about the Pats moving out of that pick, but they clearly explored the option.
And even in public pressers, their support of Jones during this process was lukewarm at best.
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In comment 16550894 barens said:
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In comment 16550880 ryanmkeane said:
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Moreover, I did not like the Daniels answer about playing in Death Valley. Whole different ball game when it comes to playing in a big market in the NFL. Also, he spent half his career at ASU.
I have no issue with that answer. The pressure playing for most SEC teams is not really different than playing in NYC, which gets way overblown, especially the Giants.
Agree with this. At LSU expectations are high and the fna base is beyond passionate. For the Giants, expectations are low and the fan base quickly focuses on the Yankees when the Giants suck...at least that portion of NY that gives a crap about sports.
When the Giants lose fans don't go to the coaches house and put "for sale" signs on his lawn. I would argue there is much more pressure to win at OSU, LSU, Alabama, etc., than there is to win with the NY Giants.
100%. Every single LSU game is in a fully packed stadium of over 100K people, Giants stadium is barely ever at capacity and when it is it’s not even heavily Giants fans but always a lot of visitors. It’s overrated. SEC schools and everyone within the state are nuts about college sports more passionate than NFL fans are.
@TheDougRush
A few takeaways from the second episode of HBO Hard Knocks: Offseason with the New York Giants:
***SPOILERS*** if you didn’t watch tonight’s episode, you might want to skip this if do you intend to watch it.
•Brian Daboll definitely seemed to really like Malik Nabers even before they spoke with him at the Combine. He really liked that he hates losing more than he likes winning.
•Daboll and Joe Schoen also seemed to really like Drake Maye when they asked him to dissect a certain pass play with the terminology.
•Joe Schoen seemed interested in wanting to move up to No. 3 in the 2024 NFL Draft and went directly to the Patriots to tell them that if they were thinking about moving out of the pick, to call them.
•The Giants, especially Daboll and defensive coordinator Shane Bowen, were really high on Tyler Nubin, so it’s not a surprise that the Giants targeted him in the second round with Xavier McKinney leaving as a free agent.
•After the initial talk he had with Panthers GM Dan Morgan that planted the seed, the idea for trading for Brian Burns was definitely in Joe Schoen’s head and he was floating trade packages to his people to gauge their opinions. He seemed more interested in trading for Burns over pursuing Christian Wilkins as a free agent.
•Schoen talks with both Saquon Barkley and his agent to mention how they’re going to let him test the market and to come back to them to see if he still wants to be a Giant, which Saquon said he appreciated. Schoen said he wanted a chance to match a possible offer if one was made to him.
•Schoen seemed like he did want Saquon back, but at his price and he likely felt the running back market might not be there in free agency. But given the contract he got in March, that clearly wasn’t the case.
•The next episode previews the continued negotiations heading into free agency between the Giants and Saquon; the last thing mentioned in the preview was Schoen saying: “I offered him a 3-year deal giving him $12.5 million APY (average per year) and $25 million guaranteed.”
•Saquon’s deal with the Eagles: 3 years, $37.5M ($12.5M APY) with $26M guaranteed.
With that said, definitely can’t wait to see how the next episode goes.
so which is it? was his 1 "generic" comment out of a who knows how long meeting "a throwaway"? or was it the negative reflection on him the clickbait you've been choking on for the last week and continue to be implying?
I think you have your head so far up your own ass, and are so thoroughly choking on the undigested fragments of PFF screen shots you subsist on, that you missed that my posts on this thread were sarcastic and in good humor.
I also think Rosetti made a silly comment, that wasn't factually accurate as it relates to 2023.
I also hope now I ruin another day for you, because you're a butthead, you smell bad, and you don't have any friends.
I don't have the time now. I did try to quick read the entire thread. I'm going to read it again and watch the show a 2nd time.
I would like to point out one thing I read on this thread that I think is incorrect.
I'm not sure who said there was no Mara in the room at the combine. I assume they meant John since for Hard Knocks purposes Chris Mara doesn't seem to exist on or off camera and it's obvious that Tim McDonnell was there. Watch at 13:30 when the player interviews begin in the suite. Is that not John Mara in the light grey sweater (sitting next to the woman in back sweatshirt with glasses) reading the Giants scouting binder they showed earlier in the episode? He's back on camera in the same spot at 21:07 too.
The Mara family management style is exactly what I expected and believed about the way the Giants have done football business since Ernie retired and ended the George Young structure. There are so many examples and parallels to the way Wellington ran the team it's like bad deja vu all over again for me.
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In comment 16550549 Eric from BBI said:
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best part of this episode was seeing the REAL Brian Daboll.
Also, there is no way Schoen has that conversation with the Patriots unless he was interested in moving up. He may not thought it was likely they would trade back, but the Giants were interested in moving up.
The private talk between Schoen and Brandon Brown was excellent too.
That is hilarious. We know he wasn’t interested because he didn’t move up. All Schoen did was let them know that he wanted to know if anyone was trying to move up ahead of him. They basically told Schoen, everybody wants to know that too. Same conversation with a number of teams. Interested parties make offers. Patriots were not moving that pick. Please stop. All of the people thinking the Giants wanted to replace Jones were fucking soooo wrong and this show is cementing that view. Terps must dying. Funny, funny shit. THEY WANTED THE WR and it is obvious.
Ummmm... no.
The only reason to even have that discussion was to nab a QB. I don't think the Giants were overly optimistic about the Pats moving out of that pick, but they clearly explored the option.
And even in public pressers, their support of Jones during this process was lukewarm at best.
I think the Giants would have drafted Maye if they had been picking at #3. They weren't. So they "settled" for a guy who they also really liked.
Observations are that I really love your HC. Think he’s the real deal and will one day win a SB! Maybe not in NYC though !
Nabors appears to have some traits similar to another guy , Odell!
Jones will have to get the ball to him early and often to keep him happy!
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Rosetti's comment was a bit of a throw away not an official designation.
so which is it? was his 1 "generic" comment out of a who knows how long meeting "a throwaway"? or was it the negative reflection on him the clickbait you've been choking on for the last week and continue to be implying?
I think you have your head so far up your own ass, and are so thoroughly choking on the undigested fragments of PFF screen shots you subsist on, that you missed that my posts on this thread were sarcastic and in good humor.
I also think Rosetti made a silly comment, that wasn't factually accurate as it relates to 2023.
I also hope now I ruin another day for you, because you're a butthead, you smell bad, and you don't have any friends.
finally something we agree on, i definitely missed your sarcasm and humor.
it's a little weird to project that these discussions = ruining a day, but if that's how you view it id maybe suggest you consider a healthier form of entertainment?
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they did make an offer. It was widely reported. Teams don't make firm offers until right before the draft, and often during the draft.
First…Does reported equal truth? Or only when it supports Eric’s point? I disagree it was widely reported and if it was. What was they offer made?
A bunch of national and local reporters posted that the Giants offered multiple picks to move up. The Patriots also confirmed the Giants were one of the teams they were talking to on draft day.
I'm not sure why you are taking umbrage with this.
There will likely be some of the comments on this very thread that won't look good by the end of this series as well.
We all need to remember these are small glimpses of a months long process, that we're not even half way through yet. To make any definitive statement based upon 2 40 minute, edited shows is really jumping way out on a limb.
unfortunately the only chance they had to get him was if NE took JJM at #3 but that obviously didnt happen. NE was never trading that pick.
finally something we agree on, i definitely missed your sarcasm and humor.
I'm glad we agree you're a butthead.
I think the Giants would have drafted Maye if they had been picking at #3. They weren't. So they "settled" for a guy who they also really liked.
Per Sports Illustrated’s Albert Breer, the Giants offered the Patriots their 2024 sixth-round pick, along with their 2025 first-rounder, while the Vikings offered three first-round picks in total, including the No. 11 and No. 23 picks this year, along with a 2025 first.
Breer wrote:
The Minnesota Vikings and New York Giants did make offers to the New England Patriots for the No. 3 pick to take Drake Maye. Earlier this week, Minnesota offered the Nos. 11 and 23 picks, and its 2025 first-rounder, with pick swaps favoring the Vikings as part of the proposal; and that offer ticked up with New England on the clock. The Giants, meanwhile, did wind up putting their 2025 first-round pick in their offer to move from No. 6 to No. 3.
Here are the massive trade offers the Patriots reportedly passed up for Drake Maye - ( New Window )
How the Patriots decided QB Drake Maye was their future - ( New Window )
= 2024 1st, 6th, and 2025 1st?
Observations are that I really love your HC. Think he’s the real deal and will one day win a SB! Maybe not in NYC though !
Nabors appears to have some traits similar to another guy , Odell!
Jones will have to get the ball to him early and often to keep him happy!
Difference I see here is that Daboll has the personality to handle Nabers much better than Coughlin ( who was on the way out) McAdoo or Judge ever did with Beckham.
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if you watched last night, we already know that Daniel Jones likes Nabers.
I think the Giants would have drafted Maye if they had been picking at #3. They weren't. So they "settled" for a guy who they also really liked.
It is great that you think that but there is nothing to support it. Everything that happened is direct evidence to the contrary. I suspect we will see the draft room? Do you think they make a serious offer to NE. Friendly wager right now between you and me. If they call the Patriots when NE is on the clock, they do not offer anything close to what would be needed to get a team DESPERATE for a QB off that pick. I suspect they only offer enough to move up to get the WR they covet.
Where are you going with these odd takes?
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the Giants offered the Patriots their 2024 sixth-round pick, along with their 2025 first-rounder
= 2024 1st, 6th, and 2025 1st?
I think its a typo...1st rounder in 2024 (6th overall) and 2025 first rounder.
BTW, the other report is from Mike Reiss, who is well known in Boston.
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I also hope now I ruin another day for you, because you're a butthead, you smell bad, and you don't have any friends.
finally something we agree on, i definitely missed your sarcasm and humor.
I'm glad we agree you're a butthead.
you can't even write a proper insult without twisting my words.
This is my take.
finally something we agree on, i definitely missed your sarcasm and humor.
I'm glad we agree you're a butthead.
you can't even write a proper insult without twisting my words.
Eric, sometimes I think the joke is so squarely sitting on your chest -- it might the lack of oxygen keeping you from understanding -- it is in fact on you.
You lost me at "it's not debatable."
= 2024 1st, 6th, and 2025 1st?
I think its a typo...1st rounder in 2024 (6th overall) and 2025 first rounder.
BTW, the other report is from Mike Reiss, who is well known in Boston.
Gotcha! A 6th rounder and a future first would be a pretty silly non-offer.
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I also hope now I ruin another day for you, because you're a butthead, you smell bad, and you don't have any friends.
finally something we agree on, i definitely missed your sarcasm and humor.
I'm glad we agree you're a butthead.
you can't even write a proper insult without twisting my words.
Eric, sometimes I think the joke is so squarely sitting on your chest -- it might the lack of oxygen keeping you from understanding -- it is in fact on you.
Can you two cut it out? You are ruining a good thread.
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I am not sure why folks are having trouble understanding that the situation the Giants were dealing with last year was not a binary one. They clearly heavily scouted the top 2024 QBs, especially early in the year when they were in fact sitting on a top 2-3 pick and would have had a shot at one of the top three guys. Indeed, I suspect they would have taken any of the three in a heartbeat if they had a chance, not necessarily because they desperately wanted to replace Jones, but because they would have had a shot at a potential elite QB something that doesn't come along every day in the NFL. Once the order was set they had to pretty much realize that neither Chicago not Wash was going to move off the 1-2 picks, but did make an offer for #3, although my guess is they would have known down deep that the Patriots weren't going any where either or if they were it would be for a huge package like the one the Vikings were offering. However, once that failed it appears Option B was to stick with Jones. Had they in fact desperately wanted to replace Jones they would almost assuredly have taken one of the other QBs at #6 (or at least somewhere in the draft.)
This is my take.
I agree with this. It makes the most logical sense. Aside from the QB discussion, I find the decision between Odunze and Nabers fascinating.
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Eric, am I read to read this:
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the Giants offered the Patriots their 2024 sixth-round pick, along with their 2025 first-rounder
= 2024 1st, 6th, and 2025 1st?
I think its a typo...1st rounder in 2024 (6th overall) and 2025 first rounder.
BTW, the other report is from Mike Reiss, who is well known in Boston.
We KNOW the results of the draft.
KNOWING THAT we drafted Nabers, replaced our backup with a less accomplished QB and failed to move up or draft a QB…
Is it not infinitely more likely that we were actually doing some things to disguise our true intentions.
You don’t think the team tried any deception at all?
It seems like a few of you are watching this with the intent to find evidence they wanted to replace JOnes. Terps and BW are disgusted because they are smart enough to know the truth.
They like Daniel Jones and there was no desire or legitimate attempt to replace him.
I think this is spot on.
I think they felt Maye was a very attractive prospect, and willing to upgrade. But that wasn't some deep vote of no confidence in Jones.
Again, I'm not sure why you are so passionate about one take when there is evidence that the Giants not only had discussion with the Patriots to move up (on tape now) but actual offers involving two first round picks.
The Patriot reporters are reporting the same.
At some point, you need to take the loss.
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In comment 16551076 Snorkels said:
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I am not sure why folks are having trouble understanding that the situation the Giants were dealing with last year was not a binary one. They clearly heavily scouted the top 2024 QBs, especially early in the year when they were in fact sitting on a top 2-3 pick and would have had a shot at one of the top three guys. Indeed, I suspect they would have taken any of the three in a heartbeat if they had a chance, not necessarily because they desperately wanted to replace Jones, but because they would have had a shot at a potential elite QB something that doesn't come along every day in the NFL. Once the order was set they had to pretty much realize that neither Chicago not Wash was going to move off the 1-2 picks, but did make an offer for #3, although my guess is they would have known down deep that the Patriots weren't going any where either or if they were it would be for a huge package like the one the Vikings were offering. However, once that failed it appears Option B was to stick with Jones. Had they in fact desperately wanted to replace Jones they would almost assuredly have taken one of the other QBs at #6 (or at least somewhere in the draft.)
This is my take.
I agree with this. It makes the most logical sense. Aside from the QB discussion, I find the decision between Odunze and Nabers fascinating.
agree with all the above, especially the odunze/nabers part. through most of the process odunze was the non-qb i was probably most attached to so im really looking forward to seeing how much they talked about both of them and what ended up separating them. the consensus seemed to shift heavily to nabers the closer things got to the draft.
I have no problem with people pushing back and asking questions. You don't want group think. That's why I actually didn't mind McDonald's comments in Ep. 1.
However, it's very clear that Mara's wishes at the very least, have to be danced around with. The response by some will be, "he has every right, he's the owner." My response to that is Mara is a lot like George Costanza. Every instinct he has is wrong.
I agree that a healthy work environment should encourage people to speak freely and make their case. But that still doesn't take away from my point that there are people in the building who have antiquated views about the NFL. And they have a seat at the table where decisions are made.
Many of us aren't surprised by this reveal, but this confirms suspicions.
Thus far, these two episodes have made it more clear - to me - that Schoen absolutely swings the final gavel on football decisions. But when it comes to dealing with Mara, he has to navigate very carefully to get him on-board.
Again, I'm not sure why you are so passionate about one take when there is evidence that the Giants not only had discussion with the Patriots to move up (on tape now) but actual offers involving two first round picks.
The Patriot reporters are reporting the same.
At some point, you need to take the loss.
You did not know.
Daniel Jones is still QB1.
So sad for some of you.
Kisses.
I am suggesting that if an offer was made, it not to actually make the trade but keep teams from moving ahead of them for a WR.
It is actually a very coveted position on draft day.
Not to disguise your intention would be stupid?
No?
But it's also "debatable."
That's why you lost me at "not debatable."
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I have no problem with people pushing back and asking questions. You don't want group think. That's why I actually didn't mind McDonald's comments in Ep. 1.
However, it's very clear that Mara's wishes at the very least, have to be danced around with. The response by some will be, "he has every right, he's the owner." My response to that is Mara is a lot like George Costanza. Every instinct he has is wrong.
I agree that a healthy work environment should encourage people to speak freely and make their case. But that still doesn't take away from my point that there are people in the building who have antiquated views about the NFL. And they have a seat at the table where decisions are made.
Many of us aren't surprised by this reveal, but this confirms suspicions.
Thus far, these two episodes have made it more clear - to me - that Schoen absolutely swings the final gavel on football decisions. But when it comes to dealing with Mara, he has to navigate very carefully to get him on-board.
Your last paragraph is spot on.
I think the Giants want a CB, but that is mainly based on Schoen's comments in episode one. I didn't take that comment as a slight. I took it as, "with a really good pass rush, who plays CB matters less." Which is true.
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In comment 16551008 Thegratefulhead said:
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In comment 16550549 Eric from BBI said:
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best part of this episode was seeing the REAL Brian Daboll.
Also, there is no way Schoen has that conversation with the Patriots unless he was interested in moving up. He may not thought it was likely they would trade back, but the Giants were interested in moving up.
The private talk between Schoen and Brandon Brown was excellent too.
That is hilarious. We know he wasn’t interested because he didn’t move up. All Schoen did was let them know that he wanted to know if anyone was trying to move up ahead of him. They basically told Schoen, everybody wants to know that too. Same conversation with a number of teams. Interested parties make offers. Patriots were not moving that pick. Please stop. All of the people thinking the Giants wanted to replace Jones were fucking soooo wrong and this show is cementing that view. Terps must dying. Funny, funny shit. THEY WANTED THE WR and it is obvious.
Ummmm... no.
The only reason to even have that discussion was to nab a QB. I don't think the Giants were overly optimistic about the Pats moving out of that pick, but they clearly explored the option.
And even in public pressers, their support of Jones during this process was lukewarm at best.
Context Eric. Patriots needed a QB. Negotiating 101. They have ALL the leverage. You want that pick, you gotta make an offer, I am shocked you don’t understand negotiating better than that. No way the Patriots let anything out of the bag first. Understand, any team that wanted 3 was going to have to come to the Patriots, that deal wasn’t happening any other way. GMEN desperately wanted a WR, I bet we find out they pick Daniel’s choice.
That’s not necessarily true. If the Vikings made an offer to NE that the Pats were willing to accept, you don’t think they’d call Schoen first to see what he’d offer? It would be negligence not to.
It seems like a few of you are watching this with the intent to find evidence they wanted to replace JOnes. Terps and BW are disgusted because they are smart enough to know the truth.
Since you mentioned me, I think there was interest in moving up to the three slot to grab a QB that met their qualifications. But I'm still not sure how strong that interest actually was. Thus far, these episodes have not revealed that, just that Schoen gave Eliot Wolf a heads-up that he may be interested as the draft nears.
Until I see or hear more evidence, I think Jones was still a strong option for Schoen/Daboll. And they were comfortable moving forward with him - assuming health - by adding more infantry if they couldn't get their price to move up.
I could hear Schoen actually saying this:
"We are close enough in this draft to get a younger, more talented QB who would be on a rookie contract. So, with Jones's history of injuries and inconsistent play, we should explore that..."
With or without Mara, Schoen and Daboll had a serious discussion about Daniel Jones' future. I'm talking big picture, strategic level thinking for the franchise. And we're not privy to that discussion for obvious reasons.
Or two, the Giants are more winging it, exploring options but mainly reacting to the cards dealt to them.
I personally have no idea which is taking place.
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"So the question is would you rather have Wilkins at $27.5M/year or Burns at $28.2M/year minus second and fifth round picks?"
Pay Wilkins and draft an edge with that #2 ? I kind of think I prefer that. Wilkins and Dex would be a dominant duo because they would be force multipliers for each other. Who will you double?
I had thought that Wilkins was just not a realistic option. I was wrong.
at #39 it ended up there were no obvious edges left. the players who went from #39 to the Nubin pick at #47 were:
Braden Fiske (pick traded to rams for #52 and next years 2nd)
Dejean
Kool-Aid
Lassiter
Max Melton
Jackson Powers-Johnson
Edgerin Cooper
Jonathan Brooks
so im not even sure they wouldnt have just taken Nubin at #39.
the miss was the Rams trade because they gave up big value to move up 13 slots, but that wasnt predictable ahead of time.
also if you sign Wilkins as a FA as opposed to a Burns trade, you lose the McKinney comp pick which will probably be around pick #140 next year. Which isn't nothing.
very close call either way, either was a good player to add but i prefer the 2 years younger edge rusher bc i think thats the harder thing to find.
Yeah, good point. you and BBI Eric are right, but I was (didn't pay attention when we didn't have that pick) assuming that there was some form of draft slot worthy edge rusher at that point. In reality I agree that more than likely would have put Nubin at that spot. Just saying, Wilkins + Dex would be a thing to see, a real problem for offensive lines.
But, very possible Burns + KT are force multipliers to each other also, so no real issues with that move.
I thought he said something more like "if I offered", "if I had offered" or "what if I offered", <the deal>, "would he be a Giant right now"?
I wondered at the time, if that was his speculation after it was all concluded?
I can't wait to see that in context.