Yeah, good point. you and BBI Eric are right, but I was (didn't pay attention when we didn't have that pick) assuming that there was some form of draft slot worthy edge rusher at that point. In reality I agree that more than likely would have put Nubin at that spot. Just saying, Wilkins + Dex would be a thing to see, a real problem for offensive lines.
But, very possible Burns + KT are force multipliers to each other also, so no real issues with that move.
yeah i agree, last week my biggest question from that episode was this exact question wilkins + 39 or burns. a week later i dont think there's a wrong answer, but without an obvious name at #39 (or #52 post trade down) i find myself gravitated towards choosing the harder to find/bigger impact player, which i think is burns.
As others have pointed out, watching Daboll quiz the QB prospects at the chalkboard was pure platinum. It sure brings a lot of confidence back for me with BD and how he must approach Jones behind the scenes. Can there be any doubt he is twice as hard on Daniel in their own meetings and Jones must be doing something right in those sessions?
Clearly DJ has not shown the right instincts anywhere near enough during the games when it counts. But Daboll must think he is capable, otherwise they would have done more at QB then just bringing in Drew Lock.
Pre-draft, I must admit to liking the cut of JJM's jib at QB, figuring he would be there at 6. I would have enjoyed seeing more of the Daboll interaction with JJ then the little clip we actually got. I do think that both JS and BD really liked JJ quite a bit, but they were in full bloom love and over the moon with Nabers, which I can understand.
Is it possible that all this trade up talk with NE for Maye is just a little bit of a smoke screen for not taking JJ and sticking with Jones? Surely they knew there were a lot of people who think the Giants should be done with Jones, but if they say they loved Maye and just could not get the deal done, so the rumored trade up at least offers some cover for not taking JJ or any other QB. Just a thought, not saying this is the case.
I did not know that Daboll had worked with Favre or the Jets, so that was interesting. Also not in love with the scout's shrimp dinner, surely that should have ended up on the cutting room floor....
they did make an offer. It was widely reported. Teams don't make firm offers until right before the draft, and often during the draft.
First…Does reported equal truth? Or only when it supports Eric’s point? I disagree it was widely reported and if it was. What was they offer made?
A bunch of national and local reporters posted that the Giants offered multiple picks to move up. The Patriots also confirmed the Giants were one of the teams they were talking to on draft day.
I'm not sure why you are taking umbrage with this.
Because it doesn't jibe with his appeal to authority: "The Giants have unwavering confidence in Jones, so thegratefulhead must be right about him!"
RE: RE: DHOS a few missing ingredients in the calculation
"So the question is would you rather have Wilkins at $27.5M/year or Burns at $28.2M/year minus second and fifth round picks?"
Pay Wilkins and draft an edge with that #2 ? I kind of think I prefer that. Wilkins and Dex would be a dominant duo because they would be force multipliers for each other. Who will you double?
I had thought that Wilkins was just not a realistic option. I was wrong.
at #39 it ended up there were no obvious edges left. the players who went from #39 to the Nubin pick at #47 were:
Braden Fiske (pick traded to rams for #52 and next years 2nd)
Dejean
Kool-Aid
Lassiter
Max Melton
Jackson Powers-Johnson
Edgerin Cooper
Jonathan Brooks
so im not even sure they wouldnt have just taken Nubin at #39.
the miss was the Rams trade because they gave up big value to move up 13 slots, but that wasnt predictable ahead of time.
also if you sign Wilkins as a FA as opposed to a Burns trade, you lose the McKinney comp pick which will probably be around pick #140 next year. Which isn't nothing.
very close call either way, either was a good player to add but i prefer the 2 years younger edge rusher bc i think thats the harder thing to find.
Yeah, good point. you and BBI Eric are right, but I was (didn't pay attention when we didn't have that pick) assuming that there was some form of draft slot worthy edge rusher at that point. In reality I agree that more than likely would have put Nubin at that spot. Just saying, Wilkins + Dex would be a thing to see, a real problem for offensive lines.
But, very possible Burns + KT are force multipliers to each other also, so no real issues with that move.
Example: They could have picked Nubin at 39 and Beebee in Nubin's spot.
It seems like a few of you are watching this with the intent to find evidence they wanted to replace JOnes. Terps and BW are disgusted because they are smart enough to know the truth.
Since you mentioned me, I think there was interest in moving up to the three slot to grab a QB that met their qualifications. But I'm still not sure how strong that interest actually was. Thus far, these episodes have not revealed that, just that Schoen gave Eliot Wolf a heads-up that he may be interested as the draft nears.
Until I see or hear more evidence, I think Jones was still a strong option for Schoen/Daboll. And they were comfortable moving forward with him - assuming health - by adding more infantry if they couldn't get their price to move up.
I could hear Schoen actually saying this:
"We are close enough in this draft to get a younger, more talented QB who would be on a rookie contract. So, with Jones's history of injuries and inconsistent play, we should explore that..."
That is a fair viewpoint, especially with how hard they scouted the QB prospects. But Schoen still has to wear that noose from the contract he dished out to DJ so he is hoping to get relief somehow (even from DJ himself).
It seems like a few of you are watching this with the intent to find evidence they wanted to replace JOnes. Terps and BW are disgusted because they are smart enough to know the truth.
Since you mentioned me, I think there was interest in moving up to the three slot to grab a QB that met their qualifications. But I'm still not sure how strong that interest actually was. Thus far, these episodes have not revealed that, just that Schoen gave Eliot Wolf a heads-up that he may be interested as the draft nears.
Until I see or hear more evidence, I think Jones was still a strong option for Schoen/Daboll. And they were comfortable moving forward with him - assuming health - by adding more infantry if they couldn't get their price to move up.
I could hear Schoen actually saying this:
"We are close enough in this draft to get a younger, more talented QB who would be on a rookie contract. So, with Jones's history of injuries and inconsistent play, we should explore that..."
Until you see more evidence?
So Garofolo, multiple beat writers for both teams and a national reporter reporting what the offer was is not “enough evidence”?
What would be the determining factor that you would deem is “enough evidence”?
Seems like you are just trying to holding on the the narrative that they still want Jones and didn’t try to get Maye
As others have pointed out, watching Daboll quiz the QB prospects at the chalkboard was pure platinum. It sure brings a lot of confidence back for me with BD and how he must approach Jones behind the scenes. Can there be any doubt he is twice as hard on Daniel in their own meetings and Jones must be doing something right in those sessions?
Clearly DJ has not shown the right instincts anywhere near enough during the games when it counts. But Daboll must think he is capable, otherwise they would have done more at QB then just bringing in Drew Lock.
Pre-draft, I must admit to liking the cut of JJM's jib at QB, figuring he would be there at 6. I would have enjoyed seeing more of the Daboll interaction with JJ then the little clip we actually got. I do think that both JS and BD really liked JJ quite a bit, but they were in full bloom love and over the moon with Nabers, which I can understand.
Is it possible that all this trade up talk with NE for Maye is just a little bit of a smoke screen for not taking JJ and sticking with Jones? Surely they knew there were a lot of people who think the Giants should be done with Jones, but if they say they loved Maye and just could not get the deal done, so the rumored trade up at least offers some cover for not taking JJ or any other QB. Just a thought, not saying this is the case.
I did not know that Daboll had worked with Favre or the Jets, so that was interesting. Also not in love with the scout's shrimp dinner, surely that should have ended up on the cutting room floor....
I didn't know about Favre either. Show did a good job of reminding everyone who Daboll has worked with.
I've seen a a number of comments about the ending dinner. I actually kind of liked it because we got a glimpse into the personality of the scouts. They spent a ton of time on Hannah (for obvious reasons) but didn't give enough air time to the other scouts. We got a glimpse of them there. (Plus I'm a sucker for a nice dinner out with booze and comradery).
Other points I picked up
1) Giants view Corner has a huge need
2) Trade up to pick 3 was real with NE
2) Giants were interested in Christian Wilkins
3) Giants had some interest in retaining Mckinney
4) Giants are concerned Jones may not be ready until week 3/4
5) Giants felt unsure about Maliks personality. Jones approved Maliks talent.
Yup, based on the first two episodes, expect CB to be high on next year's wish list. I expect DT to be too. (QB is a completely different discussion).
Two positions loaded at the top of next years draft IF we happen to be picking top 15 again… CB opposite of Banks or IDL next to Dex seems to be the early favorite, throw in OL every year too and pending on how DJ looks QB also…
RE: hate to say it but signing Christian Wilkins + having pick 39 back
Example: They could have picked Nubin at 39 and Beebee in Nubin's spot.
Is Wilkens, Beebee better than Burns?
for a team that has seen firsthand how easy it is to not get much out of IOL picks id have to have a really high opinion of beebee. guards have been one of the deeper FA positions the last several offseasons.
i think im taking the 2x pro bowl 26 year old pass rusher because those dont come along for less than a first round pick pretty much ever. montez sweat was the only other one i can think of and at the time he was a rental.
would have been stunned if NE traded #3. As I said several times before the draft, the number one rule of drafting is that if you need a franchise QB and can draft one at your pick, then you do so and reject all trade offers. NE absolutely needed a franchise QB. The only question was whether they were actually considering taking JJM at #3, which seemed unlikely.
What would have been interesting is if SD had taken Nabers instead of Alt. Would the Giants then have really taken Alt after having used the #7 pick on Neal just two years earlier? There were rumors that the Giants thought Alt had HOF potential. Or would they have taken Odunze or traded down?
As far as Burns vs. Wilkins, I'd rather have Burns. Yes, we had to give up #39 for Burns, which would not have been the case if we had signed Wilkins. But Burns is an elite pass rusher, and the cost of a #2 and a #5 was a lot less than what the Rams originally offered Carolina, which I think was two #1's and a #2.
It seems like a few of you are watching this with the intent to find evidence they wanted to replace JOnes. Terps and BW are disgusted because they are smart enough to know the truth.
Since you mentioned me, I think there was interest in moving up to the three slot to grab a QB that met their qualifications. But I'm still not sure how strong that interest actually was. Thus far, these episodes have not revealed that, just that Schoen gave Eliot Wolf a heads-up that he may be interested as the draft nears.
Until I see or hear more evidence, I think Jones was still a strong option for Schoen/Daboll. And they were comfortable moving forward with him - assuming health - by adding more infantry if they couldn't get their price to move up.
I could hear Schoen actually saying this:
"We are close enough in this draft to get a younger, more talented QB who would be on a rookie contract. So, with Jones's history of injuries and inconsistent play, we should explore that..."
+1
RE: RE: hate to say it but signing Christian Wilkins + having pick 39 back
they effectively got the same contracts except with burns getting 1 extra guaranteed year (likely in large part bc he is 2 years younger). burns got 3 guaranteed years + 2 nongtd options, wilkins got 2 guaranteed years + 2 nongtd options.
RE: RE: hate to say it but signing Christian Wilkins + having pick 39 back
Bingo… plus how many millions less would Wilkins have been? Enough o sign Barkley maybe??? Ouch
The Giants had enough money to afford the price that they had in mind for Barkley.
The Giants didn't run out of money for Barkley; they ran out of desire to meet his asking price. That wouldn't have changed with Wilkins instead of Burns.
RE: RE: RE: hate to say it but signing Christian Wilkins + having pick 39 back
they effectively got the same contracts except with burns getting 1 extra guaranteed year (likely in large part bc he is 2 years younger). burns got 3 guaranteed years + 2 nongtd options, wilkins got 2 guaranteed years + 2 nongtd options.
Ok so yeah for that price point alone you’d probably rather have the edge guy… (without factoring the 2nd round pick) I thought Wilkins was at around $22M… maybe that was NYG’s projection for him (which seemed low all around this year)
RE: RE: RE: hate to say it but signing Christian Wilkins + having pick 39 back
Bingo… plus how many millions less would Wilkins have been? Enough o sign Barkley maybe??? Ouch
The Giants had enough money to afford the price that they had in mind for Barkley.
The Giants didn't run out of money for Barkley; they ran out of desire to meet his asking price. That wouldn't have changed with Wilkins instead of Burns.
Ok, maybe.
Do you think Barkley left for an extra $1M-$2M /// do you think Schoen let him walk over asking for an extra $1M-$2M ???
Kind of a shame on both sides to be honest if this is the case… now we got $11M in cap and not much use for it as it stands today… kind of sucks TBH but oh well we’ll be alright
Really interested in how the final negotiations play out with Saquon… I don’t want to jump the gun but geez either Schoen was BS’n all along and didn’t want to bring him back at around $10M per or Saquon really just up and left and threw away the ring of honor for an extra million/2million which would be pretty rough on him considering how many more millions he made from the Giants due to them drafting him #2 overall vs him slipping to #4 or even later… did he jump ship and join the opps AND throw away the ring of honor just for a million or 2 more??? If so then wow
Seems clear to me that last season’s negotiation between Schoen and Barkley left a bad taste in both of their mouths. The conversation that shoen had with Barkleys agent and then Barkley IMO confirms they were both ready to move on.
RE: RE: RE: RE: hate to say it but signing Christian Wilkins + having pick 39 back
Bingo… plus how many millions less would Wilkins have been? Enough o sign Barkley maybe??? Ouch
The Giants had enough money to afford the price that they had in mind for Barkley.
The Giants didn't run out of money for Barkley; they ran out of desire to meet his asking price. That wouldn't have changed with Wilkins instead of Burns.
Ok, maybe.
Do you think Barkley left for an extra $1M-$2M /// do you think Schoen let him walk over asking for an extra $1M-$2M ???
Kind of a shame on both sides to be honest if this is the case… now we got $11M in cap and not much use for it as it stands today… kind of sucks TBH but oh well we’ll be alright
I think if Barkley's price had come down to single-digit AAV, maybe Schoen would have been interested, but that was never realistic. The Giants probably weren't as close as the reports suggest, and you can make a case that some of Schoen's actions last year (like reducing the AAV when he increased the gtd money) suggest that the goal was not to sign Barkley (unless the contract was extremely favorable), but instead to make sure that it appeared that every good faith effort was explored in the pursuit of keeping Barkley. IOW, a PR campaign to keep fans happy, but specifically designed to discourage Barkley from signing.
As for the $11M in cap space that the Giants have right now, that's the operating budget for this season. There's room for maybe 1-2 journeymen that make slightly more than the minimum, but that's not big ticket shopping kind of money. The Giants (like most teams) earmark around $10M for in-season activity. The Giants didn't have space for that earmark this year without altering other contracts. Waller's retirement gave them their breathing room, not a windfall for free agency.
RE: RE: RE: RE: hate to say it but signing Christian Wilkins + having pick 39 back
they effectively got the same contracts except with burns getting 1 extra guaranteed year (likely in large part bc he is 2 years younger). burns got 3 guaranteed years + 2 nongtd options, wilkins got 2 guaranteed years + 2 nongtd options.
Ok so yeah for that price point alone you’d probably rather have the edge guy… (without factoring the 2nd round pick) I thought Wilkins was at around $22M… maybe that was NYG’s projection for him (which seemed low all around this year)
the cap shooting up changed things for everyone and the top FA got more overpaid than usual. in no world should wilkins be making 5m more per year than Dex's 22.5m signed only 12 months ago. but that's what happens on the open market when there is more money than good players to go around. the best players on the open market get bid up even though they arent the best players but rather the best available.
RE: RE: RE: hate to say it but signing Christian Wilkins + having pick 39 back
Bingo… plus how many millions less would Wilkins have been? Enough o sign Barkley maybe??? Ouch
The Giants had enough money to afford the price that they had in mind for Barkley.
The Giants didn't run out of money for Barkley; they ran out of desire to meet his asking price. That wouldn't have changed with Wilkins instead of Burns.
How much better (if at all) is Wilkins than Leo? Dex/Leo/Thibs/ xx couldn't generate pressure on their own.
RE: RE: RE: RE: hate to say it but signing Christian Wilkins + having pick 39 back
How much better (if at all) is Wilkins than Leo? Dex/Leo/Thibs/ xx couldn't generate pressure on their own.
this is a good observation. leo has actually historically been the better pass rusher including last year by a bunch of metrics. that's why he got another big contract even on the wrong side of 30. getting the most productive pass rusher at the youngest age was likely the primary motivation but trying a new formula was probably part of the appeal.
but I am just curious if it has been reported whether Saquon actually came back to the Giants with the Eagles offer? I think if he did not do that after saying he would (kind of) that would be a really bad move. Just curious if this has come out today.
but I am just curious if it has been reported whether Saquon actually came back to the Giants with the Eagles offer? I think if he did not do that after saying he would (kind of) that would be a really bad move. Just curious if this has come out today.
i think that's what they are teasing we'll see in the next episode.
interesting documentary the NFL films put out was on the Roku channel "The Pick is In"; they did a new one this year for the 2024 draft that came out a couple of weeks ago, and one of the scenes it had was the Bears war room when the Giants were on the clock and universally they all thought the Giants were taking Nabers. Kevin Warren, the Bears President, says "They'll take Nabers, they gotta get the Quarterback some help". All their focus was on getting one of the two WR's (Odunze or Nabers) but it was interesting to see an outside organization sounding like it wasnt even a thought in their mind that the Giants would take McCarthy.
Per a league source with knowledge of the situation, the Giants extended an offer to Barkley worth $13 million per year, including $26 million over the first two years. The offer was made before the deadline for applying the franchise tag, with the express message from the team that, if the tag were applied to Barkley, the offer would be pulled. Barkley was looking for Christian McCaffrey money, we’re told; that’s roughly $16 million per year.
Link - ( New Window )
Mike Garafolo and Ryan Dunleavy both reported that to be incorrect and reported the specific details of what Barkley was looking for.
Ryan Dunleavy
@rydunleavy
New: In the end, #Giants and Saquon Barkley couldn't bridge a gap of less than $2 million in both average annual salary and guarantees over the first 2 years, sources said. Both sides felt they budged enough and now it feels like a big risk for both https://nypost.com/2023/07/17/saquon-barkley-giants-cant-reach-deal-ahead-of-contract-deadline/ #nyg
Mike Garafolo
@MikeGarafolo
The staggering part of the #Giants and Saquon Barkley being unable to reach a deal is how close they were.
@rydunleavy’s reporting is in line with what I’ve heard regarding the spread between the sides. It seemed close enough to bridge as the deadline drew near. Didn’t happen.
Barkley already rejected reported giant 3-year contract offers during and after 2022 season, that by reports were above the franchise tag and IMO were very fair. By rejecting this Barkley hurt the giants 3 ways in early 2023:
a) by Barkley signing and with positive contract structure, more available money to sign higher quality free agents;
b) this impacts decisions made on needs for 2023 upcoming draft;
c) increases giant leverage with signing Jones in 2023
This would have given Schoen more than enough reason to be more hardline in his July 2023 negotiations with Barkley since he already lost these positives by that time.
I agree with Schoen complaining about how hard it was dealing with franchising Barkley. It's part of the job.
My guess is privately Schoen's view is something like:
Dude, I don't even want you here, and the only reason I offered this much is because my boss keeps coming in my office telling me how much he loves you.
The worst outcome for Schoen is Philly validating Mara's perspective. And if Barkley has a huge season, it will be a credibility eroding problem for Schoen in Mara's eyes.
Barkley is going to do well in Philly. Why is that even a question? Frankly, Schoen offered Barkley virtually the same deal mid 2022. So I do not blame Schoen for being a bit miffed. Then Barkley dragged his ass after the Tag. So Schoen had had enough.
Schoen is right with his decision on Barkley. I like SB a lot, but the numbers are the numbers. I think Barkley and his agents blew it in 2022, but Barkley is pissed at Schoen - wrongly. Very similar to Love. Schoen offered the correct number and both turned it down. Schoen moved on. Plain and simple.
Basically, Schoen took the Barkley money and got some oline.
It is clear that while Mara has his druthers, Schoen rules the roost. The Maras have always loved their players as family, especially the Favs, and that is why the Giants have trouble holding on to players too long.
interesting documentary the NFL films put out was on the Roku channel "The Pick is In"; they did a new one this year for the 2024 draft that came out a couple of weeks ago, and one of the scenes it had was the Bears war room when the Giants were on the clock and universally they all thought the Giants were taking Nabers. Kevin Warren, the Bears President, says "They'll take Nabers, they gotta get the Quarterback some help". All their focus was on getting one of the two WR's (Odunze or Nabers) but it was interesting to see an outside organization sounding like it wasnt even a thought in their mind that the Giants would take McCarthy.
but I am just curious if it has been reported whether Saquon actually came back to the Giants with the Eagles offer? I think if he did not do that after saying he would (kind of) that would be a really bad move. Just curious if this has come out today.
i think that's what they are teasing we'll see in the next episode.
On that phone call Barkley seemed to indicate that he’d already told Schoen his asking price. Could be that I misinterpreted what he said, and hindsight is 20/20. To me it Barkley had made his mind up & he felt disrespected by Schoen. Again - it was only one phone call. Still, he had one foot out of the door.
interesting documentary the NFL films put out was on the Roku channel "The Pick is In"; they did a new one this year for the 2024 draft that came out a couple of weeks ago, and one of the scenes it had was the Bears war room when the Giants were on the clock and universally they all thought the Giants were taking Nabers. Kevin Warren, the Bears President, says "They'll take Nabers, they gotta get the Quarterback some help". All their focus was on getting one of the two WR's (Odunze or Nabers) but it was interesting to see an outside organization sounding like it wasnt even a thought in their mind that the Giants would take McCarthy.
Interesting. Thanks.
Chicago couldn’t get to the podium fast enough to pick Odunze after Atlanta took Penix Jr.
interesting documentary the NFL films put out was on the Roku channel "The Pick is In"; they did a new one this year for the 2024 draft that came out a couple of weeks ago, and one of the scenes it had was the Bears war room when the Giants were on the clock and universally they all thought the Giants were taking Nabers. Kevin Warren, the Bears President, says "They'll take Nabers, they gotta get the Quarterback some help". All their focus was on getting one of the two WR's (Odunze or Nabers) but it was interesting to see an outside organization sounding like it wasnt even a thought in their mind that the Giants would take McCarthy.
To me it Barkley had made his mind up & he felt disrespected by Schoen. Again - it was only one phone call. Still, he had one foot out of the door.
i think you are right about this - but id imagine the main source of that frustration was hearing schoen spend 2 years saying they wanted him back and yet didnt put any offer on the table.
schoen was the one with the power of this decision not barkley, and he did nothing with the powers he had (be it putting an offer on the table or tagging or trading him earlier). he just let the clock run out (which i suspect was intentional but if not it was just stupid).
So Garofolo, multiple beat writers for both teams and a national reporter reporting what the offer was is not “enough evidence”?
What would be the determining factor that you would deem is “enough evidence”?
Seems like you are just trying to holding on the the narrative that they still want Jones and didn’t try to get Maye
Read what I wrote. I said I could see the interest in Maye, and discussions with New England, but I could also see Schoen being perfectly content sticking with Jones if they couldn't execute a trade.
What I don't know is how hard to the hole Schoen went to make a deal to buy the 3rd pick.
So Garofolo, multiple beat writers for both teams and a national reporter reporting what the offer was is not “enough evidence”?
What would be the determining factor that you would deem is “enough evidence”?
Seems like you are just trying to holding on the the narrative that they still want Jones and didn’t try to get Maye
Read what I wrote. I said I could see the interest in Maye, and discussions with New England, but I could also see Schoen being perfectly content sticking with Jones if they couldn't execute a trade.
What I don't know is how hard to the hole Schoen went to make a deal to buy the 3rd pick.
No….you read what I wrote….the terms were released what they were willing to give up
RE: Reading the tea leaves and piecing it together
It can’t be more clear how the Barkley situation played out the past 18+ months. Mara and Co desperately wanted him to be the face of the franchise for the next 25 years, and already ordering the ring of honor signage. And willing to resign him at any cost.
Schoen felt the pressure, and offered more than a fair number. Seems Schoen felt they were close to a deal, and could franchise Jones. And something blew up at the end, forcing the Jones contract.
We know the Jones contract went down to the last minute. I think the Barkley contract blowing up and pivot to Jones deal is what took the ten years off Schoen life.
I think Schoen Daboll like Jones. But would have preferred a franchise contract rather than the commitment. Jones injury, I think is where Schoen feels Barkley screwed the franchise by not agreeing to a deal to allow the Jones franchise tag…
The frustration of dealing with Barkley, calling his Giant for Life bluff, and pressure from ownership all couldn't be more clear IMO
This is a good take. Barkley essentially helped screw up the Giants plans, and now he's gone to PHI with his middle finger in the air. That said, without having anything to do with Barkley, the Giants wanted to get DJ signed longterm after 2022, because they were concerned about the QB market values skyrocketing paired with DJ producing more with a better supporting cast.
They gambled that what happened last year wouldn't. And now that it has, the Barkley fiasco from a year ago feels like a fresh wound. As Schoen's refrain has been, had he simply accepted the original offer they all would've been fine.
No….you read what I wrote….the terms were released what they were willing to give up
Supposed terms were reported. That could mean Schoen was willing to consider two firsts, etc, but then he got cold feet. Maybe Wolf said toss in another player/second day pick, but Schoen wouldn't go that far.
No….you read what I wrote….the terms were released what they were willing to give up
Supposed terms were reported. That could mean Schoen was willing to consider two firsts, etc, but then he got cold feet. Maybe Wolf said toss in another player/second day pick, but Schoen wouldn't go that far.
No….you read what I wrote….the terms were released what they were willing to give up
Supposed terms were reported. That could mean Schoen was willing to consider two firsts, etc, but then he got cold feet. Maybe Wolf said toss in another player/second day pick, but Schoen wouldn't go that far.
So, I don't know what the actual BAFO was.
Oh….so now it’s supposed terms….gotcha
I don't know why this is confusing for you, but unless a trade is completed, the terms of an incomplete trade discussion are ALWAYS speculative.
I do tend to believe Garafolo's voice on the matter, but as a matter of common sense, there are only two ways to ever truly KNOW the terms of a trade negotiation: 1) the trade actually gets completed; 2) both teams expressly confirm the best and final offer/ask.
Let me add this. If you really identify a franchise QB that you think will move your franchise forward, and you are willing to sell assets to get him, then you find a way to make the deal. It's that simple. Because if you nail it, the deal will pay for itself.
Accorsi really wanted Eli, so he found a way.
I think Schoen liked Maye, but he didn't love him enough to move off Jones and really change the direction of the franchise.
So, we enter year six with Jones.
RE: art was right that episode was amazing - dabs combine interviews alone
worth the price of admission. wilkins and #39 is tempting but if you look at what was still on the board it's less clear. the most tempting alternative wasnt a player but the trade the rams did giving up 2 seconds for 1, which then pushes that pick below nubin any way. also would have voided the mckinney comp pick next year so not totally free.
there is a reasonable argument both ways but i think an edge bender like burns is just too hard to find elsewhere. also a couple years younger than wilkins. there's a reason he got tagged and had trade value, players like him at that age do not hit the open market.
since last summer it's been clear schoen didnt want to bring barkley back. i hope motor works out and does a good job but i think schoen dropped the ball on that one. the deal barkley's team proposed last year, encompassing the $10m from tag, was fair. ed berry clearly saw the writing on the wall and i thought it was interesting when he asked schoen point blank if they wanted to move on he answered like natalie imbruglia. i give him credit for taking the less comfortable path, but i dont think that's going to provide much respite if barkley gains 2k yards and 10+ tds in philly this year. hopefully that OL implodes without kelce. schoen's entire strategy in that negotiation was reactive vs proactive. i would have liked to see more of daboll's thoughts on that but it seems like the giants put a wall up on that.
Is the issue Barkley (team icon) vs no Barkley?
Or is it that Daboll has sold the organization on the idea that a "bell cow" RB is a bad philosophy?
- What happens if he goes down? (We'vd experienced that!)
- RBBC gives the coordinator the ability to execute the "what you saw last week may not be what you see this week" strategy.
Let me add this. If you really identify a franchise QB that you think will move your franchise forward, and you are willing to sell assets to get him, then you find a way to make the deal. It's that simple. Because if you nail it, the deal will pay for itself.
Accorsi really wanted Eli, so he found a way.
I think Schoen liked Maye, but he didn't love him enough to move off Jones and really change the direction of the franchise.
So, we enter year six with Jones.
Accorsi had a willing partner to trade
Schoen did not and you never no idea how much he may have liked Maye….could have been the price was too steep
"We need to get around this kid and see if we can work with him because there is a lot to his personality,” area scout Scott Hamel said.
Is this an indication they were/are concerned about the high maintenance rumor (see: strip club video)? Or they think he just has an outgoing personality?
This coupled with watching a ton of Odunze last season and then seeing him in this episode has me really wishing we took him. Nabers seems like he is going to be a very high risk/high reward pick. Odunze ceiling may be lower by a smidge but his floor is absolutely higher by a mile. Barring injury he will be a hell of a player.
Really hope we got it right. All coaches think they can help players be who they need to be. It ain't that easy.
I agree with the old fashioned NYG philosophy of intelligence and character being important. If you deviate you can get burned (e.g. DeAndre Baker).
But at the very elite level, the very same characteristics that make a player a "rebel" vs contemporary standards are the same that make him "All Pro" (see Taylor, Lawrence; Lewis, Ray)
The staff, led by have decided to take that gamble.
all my info comes from my relationship within the Pats org.
1. Schoen contacted the Pats early and often regarding what it would take to get a deal done.
2. Early on he made an Offer of our 2024 1st pick, 2025 1st and 2025 3rd pick for their 2024 1st round (#3)
3. Stayed in touch constantly monitoring the situation, Kraft and the Pats were known to be in love with JJM.
4. Once the draftboards were set and JJM wasn't in the top ten for the Pats....the conversations internally changed.
5. Giants were told they needed to up the ante either day of the draft or the day before. They finally relented and added a pick. I was never told what additional pick they offered.
The Pats decided to keep the pick, end of story.
Draw whatever conclusions you want. The Giants tried hard to get Maye, it didn't work out.
all my info comes from my relationship within the Pats org.
1. Schoen contacted the Pats early and often regarding what it would take to get a deal done.
2. Early on he made an Offer of our 2024 1st pick, 2025 1st and 2025 3rd pick for their 2024 1st round (#3)
3. Stayed in touch constantly monitoring the situation, Kraft and the Pats were known to be in love with JJM.
4. Once the draftboards were set and JJM wasn't in the top ten for the Pats....the conversations internally changed.
5. Giants were told they needed to up the ante either day of the draft or the day before. They finally relented and added a pick. I was never told what additional pick they offered.
The Pats decided to keep the pick, end of story.
Draw whatever conclusions you want. The Giants tried hard to get Maye, it didn't work out.
all my info comes from my relationship within the Pats org.
1. Schoen contacted the Pats early and often regarding what it would take to get a deal done.
2. Early on he made an Offer of our 2024 1st pick, 2025 1st and 2025 3rd pick for their 2024 1st round (#3)
3. Stayed in touch constantly monitoring the situation, Kraft and the Pats were known to be in love with JJM.
4. Once the draftboards were set and JJM wasn't in the top ten for the Pats....the conversations internally changed.
5. Giants were told they needed to up the ante either day of the draft or the day before. They finally relented and added a pick. I was never told what additional pick they offered.
The Pats decided to keep the pick, end of story.
Draw whatever conclusions you want. The Giants tried hard to get Maye, it didn't work out.
Thanks for sharing this. That is a very generous offer by Schoen - and clearly indicates he wanted Maye badly. My guess is the Pats sensed at some point that the JJM-mania was just subterfuge and realized they would be insane not to simply sit tight and take Maye. Smart decision by them and unfortunate for us.
drinks at the steakhouse old fashions and not one martini
Draw whatever conclusions you want. The Giants tried hard to get Maye, it didn't work out.
Are you suggesting we should give Schoen credit for trying "hard"?
There is that line in the movie Social Network where the Mark Zuckerberg character says to the Winklevoss twins that if they were the inventors of Facebook, they would have invented Facebook.
If Schoen really wanted Maye, the Giants would have Maye on their roster right now.
Yeah, good point. you and BBI Eric are right, but I was (didn't pay attention when we didn't have that pick) assuming that there was some form of draft slot worthy edge rusher at that point. In reality I agree that more than likely would have put Nubin at that spot. Just saying, Wilkins + Dex would be a thing to see, a real problem for offensive lines.
But, very possible Burns + KT are force multipliers to each other also, so no real issues with that move.
yeah i agree, last week my biggest question from that episode was this exact question wilkins + 39 or burns. a week later i dont think there's a wrong answer, but without an obvious name at #39 (or #52 post trade down) i find myself gravitated towards choosing the harder to find/bigger impact player, which i think is burns.
Clearly DJ has not shown the right instincts anywhere near enough during the games when it counts. But Daboll must think he is capable, otherwise they would have done more at QB then just bringing in Drew Lock.
Pre-draft, I must admit to liking the cut of JJM's jib at QB, figuring he would be there at 6. I would have enjoyed seeing more of the Daboll interaction with JJ then the little clip we actually got. I do think that both JS and BD really liked JJ quite a bit, but they were in full bloom love and over the moon with Nabers, which I can understand.
Is it possible that all this trade up talk with NE for Maye is just a little bit of a smoke screen for not taking JJ and sticking with Jones? Surely they knew there were a lot of people who think the Giants should be done with Jones, but if they say they loved Maye and just could not get the deal done, so the rumored trade up at least offers some cover for not taking JJ or any other QB. Just a thought, not saying this is the case.
I did not know that Daboll had worked with Favre or the Jets, so that was interesting. Also not in love with the scout's shrimp dinner, surely that should have ended up on the cutting room floor....
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In comment 16551032 Eric from BBI said:
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they did make an offer. It was widely reported. Teams don't make firm offers until right before the draft, and often during the draft.
First…Does reported equal truth? Or only when it supports Eric’s point? I disagree it was widely reported and if it was. What was they offer made?
A bunch of national and local reporters posted that the Giants offered multiple picks to move up. The Patriots also confirmed the Giants were one of the teams they were talking to on draft day.
I'm not sure why you are taking umbrage with this.
Because it doesn't jibe with his appeal to authority: "The Giants have unwavering confidence in Jones, so thegratefulhead must be right about him!"
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In comment 16550877 D HOS said:
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"So the question is would you rather have Wilkins at $27.5M/year or Burns at $28.2M/year minus second and fifth round picks?"
Pay Wilkins and draft an edge with that #2 ? I kind of think I prefer that. Wilkins and Dex would be a dominant duo because they would be force multipliers for each other. Who will you double?
I had thought that Wilkins was just not a realistic option. I was wrong.
at #39 it ended up there were no obvious edges left. the players who went from #39 to the Nubin pick at #47 were:
Braden Fiske (pick traded to rams for #52 and next years 2nd)
Dejean
Kool-Aid
Lassiter
Max Melton
Jackson Powers-Johnson
Edgerin Cooper
Jonathan Brooks
so im not even sure they wouldnt have just taken Nubin at #39.
the miss was the Rams trade because they gave up big value to move up 13 slots, but that wasnt predictable ahead of time.
also if you sign Wilkins as a FA as opposed to a Burns trade, you lose the McKinney comp pick which will probably be around pick #140 next year. Which isn't nothing.
very close call either way, either was a good player to add but i prefer the 2 years younger edge rusher bc i think thats the harder thing to find.
Yeah, good point. you and BBI Eric are right, but I was (didn't pay attention when we didn't have that pick) assuming that there was some form of draft slot worthy edge rusher at that point. In reality I agree that more than likely would have put Nubin at that spot. Just saying, Wilkins + Dex would be a thing to see, a real problem for offensive lines.
But, very possible Burns + KT are force multipliers to each other also, so no real issues with that move.
Example: They could have picked Nubin at 39 and Beebee in Nubin's spot.
Is Wilkens, Beebee better than Burns?
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It seems like a few of you are watching this with the intent to find evidence they wanted to replace JOnes. Terps and BW are disgusted because they are smart enough to know the truth.
Since you mentioned me, I think there was interest in moving up to the three slot to grab a QB that met their qualifications. But I'm still not sure how strong that interest actually was. Thus far, these episodes have not revealed that, just that Schoen gave Eliot Wolf a heads-up that he may be interested as the draft nears.
Until I see or hear more evidence, I think Jones was still a strong option for Schoen/Daboll. And they were comfortable moving forward with him - assuming health - by adding more infantry if they couldn't get their price to move up.
I could hear Schoen actually saying this:
"We are close enough in this draft to get a younger, more talented QB who would be on a rookie contract. So, with Jones's history of injuries and inconsistent play, we should explore that..."
That is a fair viewpoint, especially with how hard they scouted the QB prospects. But Schoen still has to wear that noose from the contract he dished out to DJ so he is hoping to get relief somehow (even from DJ himself).
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It seems like a few of you are watching this with the intent to find evidence they wanted to replace JOnes. Terps and BW are disgusted because they are smart enough to know the truth.
Since you mentioned me, I think there was interest in moving up to the three slot to grab a QB that met their qualifications. But I'm still not sure how strong that interest actually was. Thus far, these episodes have not revealed that, just that Schoen gave Eliot Wolf a heads-up that he may be interested as the draft nears.
Until I see or hear more evidence, I think Jones was still a strong option for Schoen/Daboll. And they were comfortable moving forward with him - assuming health - by adding more infantry if they couldn't get their price to move up.
I could hear Schoen actually saying this:
"We are close enough in this draft to get a younger, more talented QB who would be on a rookie contract. So, with Jones's history of injuries and inconsistent play, we should explore that..."
Until you see more evidence?
So Garofolo, multiple beat writers for both teams and a national reporter reporting what the offer was is not “enough evidence”?
What would be the determining factor that you would deem is “enough evidence”?
Seems like you are just trying to holding on the the narrative that they still want Jones and didn’t try to get Maye
Clearly DJ has not shown the right instincts anywhere near enough during the games when it counts. But Daboll must think he is capable, otherwise they would have done more at QB then just bringing in Drew Lock.
Pre-draft, I must admit to liking the cut of JJM's jib at QB, figuring he would be there at 6. I would have enjoyed seeing more of the Daboll interaction with JJ then the little clip we actually got. I do think that both JS and BD really liked JJ quite a bit, but they were in full bloom love and over the moon with Nabers, which I can understand.
Is it possible that all this trade up talk with NE for Maye is just a little bit of a smoke screen for not taking JJ and sticking with Jones? Surely they knew there were a lot of people who think the Giants should be done with Jones, but if they say they loved Maye and just could not get the deal done, so the rumored trade up at least offers some cover for not taking JJ or any other QB. Just a thought, not saying this is the case.
I did not know that Daboll had worked with Favre or the Jets, so that was interesting. Also not in love with the scout's shrimp dinner, surely that should have ended up on the cutting room floor....
I didn't know about Favre either. Show did a good job of reminding everyone who Daboll has worked with.
I've seen a a number of comments about the ending dinner. I actually kind of liked it because we got a glimpse into the personality of the scouts. They spent a ton of time on Hannah (for obvious reasons) but didn't give enough air time to the other scouts. We got a glimpse of them there. (Plus I'm a sucker for a nice dinner out with booze and comradery).
That shrimp cocktail sauce is overloaded with Horseradish - so good but man it attacks your brain like nothing else :)
Costco sells it from time to time - if you ever see it pick it up!
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Saqoun vibe was like "what do you want" vibe.
Other points I picked up
1) Giants view Corner has a huge need
2) Trade up to pick 3 was real with NE
2) Giants were interested in Christian Wilkins
3) Giants had some interest in retaining Mckinney
4) Giants are concerned Jones may not be ready until week 3/4
5) Giants felt unsure about Maliks personality. Jones approved Maliks talent.
Yup, based on the first two episodes, expect CB to be high on next year's wish list. I expect DT to be too. (QB is a completely different discussion).
Two positions loaded at the top of next years draft IF we happen to be picking top 15 again… CB opposite of Banks or IDL next to Dex seems to be the early favorite, throw in OL every year too and pending on how DJ looks QB also…
Thats Cooper Dejean or Kool Aid Mckinstry
Bingo… plus how many millions less would Wilkins have been? Enough o sign Barkley maybe??? Ouch
Example: They could have picked Nubin at 39 and Beebee in Nubin's spot.
Is Wilkens, Beebee better than Burns?
for a team that has seen firsthand how easy it is to not get much out of IOL picks id have to have a really high opinion of beebee. guards have been one of the deeper FA positions the last several offseasons.
i think im taking the 2x pro bowl 26 year old pass rusher because those dont come along for less than a first round pick pretty much ever. montez sweat was the only other one i can think of and at the time he was a rental.
What would have been interesting is if SD had taken Nabers instead of Alt. Would the Giants then have really taken Alt after having used the #7 pick on Neal just two years earlier? There were rumors that the Giants thought Alt had HOF potential. Or would they have taken Odunze or traded down?
As far as Burns vs. Wilkins, I'd rather have Burns. Yes, we had to give up #39 for Burns, which would not have been the case if we had signed Wilkins. But Burns is an elite pass rusher, and the cost of a #2 and a #5 was a lot less than what the Rams originally offered Carolina, which I think was two #1's and a #2.
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It seems like a few of you are watching this with the intent to find evidence they wanted to replace JOnes. Terps and BW are disgusted because they are smart enough to know the truth.
Since you mentioned me, I think there was interest in moving up to the three slot to grab a QB that met their qualifications. But I'm still not sure how strong that interest actually was. Thus far, these episodes have not revealed that, just that Schoen gave Eliot Wolf a heads-up that he may be interested as the draft nears.
Until I see or hear more evidence, I think Jones was still a strong option for Schoen/Daboll. And they were comfortable moving forward with him - assuming health - by adding more infantry if they couldn't get their price to move up.
I could hear Schoen actually saying this:
"We are close enough in this draft to get a younger, more talented QB who would be on a rookie contract. So, with Jones's history of injuries and inconsistent play, we should explore that..."
+1
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id rather have than Brian burns.
Thats Cooper Dejean or Kool Aid Mckinstry
Bingo… plus how many millions less would Wilkins have been? Enough o sign Barkley maybe??? Ouch
wilkins got 27.5m aav, 57m fully guaranteed.
burns got 28.2m aav 76m fully guarantted.
they effectively got the same contracts except with burns getting 1 extra guaranteed year (likely in large part bc he is 2 years younger). burns got 3 guaranteed years + 2 nongtd options, wilkins got 2 guaranteed years + 2 nongtd options.
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id rather have than Brian burns.
Thats Cooper Dejean or Kool Aid Mckinstry
Bingo… plus how many millions less would Wilkins have been? Enough o sign Barkley maybe??? Ouch
The Giants had enough money to afford the price that they had in mind for Barkley.
The Giants didn't run out of money for Barkley; they ran out of desire to meet his asking price. That wouldn't have changed with Wilkins instead of Burns.
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In comment 16550586 fish3321 said:
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id rather have than Brian burns.
Thats Cooper Dejean or Kool Aid Mckinstry
Bingo… plus how many millions less would Wilkins have been? Enough o sign Barkley maybe??? Ouch
wilkins got 27.5m aav, 57m fully guaranteed.
burns got 28.2m aav 76m fully guarantted.
they effectively got the same contracts except with burns getting 1 extra guaranteed year (likely in large part bc he is 2 years younger). burns got 3 guaranteed years + 2 nongtd options, wilkins got 2 guaranteed years + 2 nongtd options.
Ok so yeah for that price point alone you’d probably rather have the edge guy… (without factoring the 2nd round pick) I thought Wilkins was at around $22M… maybe that was NYG’s projection for him (which seemed low all around this year)
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In comment 16550586 fish3321 said:
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id rather have than Brian burns.
Thats Cooper Dejean or Kool Aid Mckinstry
Bingo… plus how many millions less would Wilkins have been? Enough o sign Barkley maybe??? Ouch
The Giants had enough money to afford the price that they had in mind for Barkley.
The Giants didn't run out of money for Barkley; they ran out of desire to meet his asking price. That wouldn't have changed with Wilkins instead of Burns.
Ok, maybe.
Do you think Barkley left for an extra $1M-$2M /// do you think Schoen let him walk over asking for an extra $1M-$2M ???
Kind of a shame on both sides to be honest if this is the case… now we got $11M in cap and not much use for it as it stands today… kind of sucks TBH but oh well we’ll be alright
Seems clear to me that last season’s negotiation between Schoen and Barkley left a bad taste in both of their mouths. The conversation that shoen had with Barkleys agent and then Barkley IMO confirms they were both ready to move on.
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In comment 16551180 90.Cal said:
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In comment 16550586 fish3321 said:
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id rather have than Brian burns.
Thats Cooper Dejean or Kool Aid Mckinstry
Bingo… plus how many millions less would Wilkins have been? Enough o sign Barkley maybe??? Ouch
The Giants had enough money to afford the price that they had in mind for Barkley.
The Giants didn't run out of money for Barkley; they ran out of desire to meet his asking price. That wouldn't have changed with Wilkins instead of Burns.
Ok, maybe.
Do you think Barkley left for an extra $1M-$2M /// do you think Schoen let him walk over asking for an extra $1M-$2M ???
Kind of a shame on both sides to be honest if this is the case… now we got $11M in cap and not much use for it as it stands today… kind of sucks TBH but oh well we’ll be alright
I think if Barkley's price had come down to single-digit AAV, maybe Schoen would have been interested, but that was never realistic. The Giants probably weren't as close as the reports suggest, and you can make a case that some of Schoen's actions last year (like reducing the AAV when he increased the gtd money) suggest that the goal was not to sign Barkley (unless the contract was extremely favorable), but instead to make sure that it appeared that every good faith effort was explored in the pursuit of keeping Barkley. IOW, a PR campaign to keep fans happy, but specifically designed to discourage Barkley from signing.
As for the $11M in cap space that the Giants have right now, that's the operating budget for this season. There's room for maybe 1-2 journeymen that make slightly more than the minimum, but that's not big ticket shopping kind of money. The Giants (like most teams) earmark around $10M for in-season activity. The Giants didn't have space for that earmark this year without altering other contracts. Waller's retirement gave them their breathing room, not a windfall for free agency.
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In comment 16551180 90.Cal said:
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In comment 16550586 fish3321 said:
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id rather have than Brian burns.
Thats Cooper Dejean or Kool Aid Mckinstry
Bingo… plus how many millions less would Wilkins have been? Enough o sign Barkley maybe??? Ouch
wilkins got 27.5m aav, 57m fully guaranteed.
burns got 28.2m aav 76m fully guarantted.
they effectively got the same contracts except with burns getting 1 extra guaranteed year (likely in large part bc he is 2 years younger). burns got 3 guaranteed years + 2 nongtd options, wilkins got 2 guaranteed years + 2 nongtd options.
Ok so yeah for that price point alone you’d probably rather have the edge guy… (without factoring the 2nd round pick) I thought Wilkins was at around $22M… maybe that was NYG’s projection for him (which seemed low all around this year)
the cap shooting up changed things for everyone and the top FA got more overpaid than usual. in no world should wilkins be making 5m more per year than Dex's 22.5m signed only 12 months ago. but that's what happens on the open market when there is more money than good players to go around. the best players on the open market get bid up even though they arent the best players but rather the best available.
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In comment 16550586 fish3321 said:
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id rather have than Brian burns.
Thats Cooper Dejean or Kool Aid Mckinstry
Bingo… plus how many millions less would Wilkins have been? Enough o sign Barkley maybe??? Ouch
The Giants had enough money to afford the price that they had in mind for Barkley.
The Giants didn't run out of money for Barkley; they ran out of desire to meet his asking price. That wouldn't have changed with Wilkins instead of Burns.
How much better (if at all) is Wilkins than Leo? Dex/Leo/Thibs/ xx couldn't generate pressure on their own.
How much better (if at all) is Wilkins than Leo? Dex/Leo/Thibs/ xx couldn't generate pressure on their own.
this is a good observation. leo has actually historically been the better pass rusher including last year by a bunch of metrics. that's why he got another big contract even on the wrong side of 30. getting the most productive pass rusher at the youngest age was likely the primary motivation but trying a new formula was probably part of the appeal.
i think that's what they are teasing we'll see in the next episode.
It changes the entire complexion of the defense.
Link - ( New Window )
Mike Garafolo and Ryan Dunleavy both reported that to be incorrect and reported the specific details of what Barkley was looking for.
Ryan Dunleavy
@rydunleavy
New: In the end, #Giants and Saquon Barkley couldn't bridge a gap of less than $2 million in both average annual salary and guarantees over the first 2 years, sources said. Both sides felt they budged enough and now it feels like a big risk for both https://nypost.com/2023/07/17/saquon-barkley-giants-cant-reach-deal-ahead-of-contract-deadline/ #nyg
Mike Garafolo
@MikeGarafolo
The staggering part of the #Giants and Saquon Barkley being unable to reach a deal is how close they were.
@rydunleavy’s reporting is in line with what I’ve heard regarding the spread between the sides. It seemed close enough to bridge as the deadline drew near. Didn’t happen.
4:40 PM · Jul 17, 2023 https://nypost.com/2023/07/17/saquon-barkley-giants-cant-reach-deal-ahead-of-contract-deadline/ - ( New Window ) [/quote]
Barkley already rejected reported giant 3-year contract offers during and after 2022 season, that by reports were above the franchise tag and IMO were very fair. By rejecting this Barkley hurt the giants 3 ways in early 2023:
a) by Barkley signing and with positive contract structure, more available money to sign higher quality free agents;
b) this impacts decisions made on needs for 2023 upcoming draft;
c) increases giant leverage with signing Jones in 2023
This would have given Schoen more than enough reason to be more hardline in his July 2023 negotiations with Barkley since he already lost these positives by that time.
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I agree with Schoen complaining about how hard it was dealing with franchising Barkley. It's part of the job.
My guess is privately Schoen's view is something like:
Dude, I don't even want you here, and the only reason I offered this much is because my boss keeps coming in my office telling me how much he loves you.
The worst outcome for Schoen is Philly validating Mara's perspective. And if Barkley has a huge season, it will be a credibility eroding problem for Schoen in Mara's eyes.
Barkley is going to do well in Philly. Why is that even a question? Frankly, Schoen offered Barkley virtually the same deal mid 2022. So I do not blame Schoen for being a bit miffed. Then Barkley dragged his ass after the Tag. So Schoen had had enough.
Schoen is right with his decision on Barkley. I like SB a lot, but the numbers are the numbers. I think Barkley and his agents blew it in 2022, but Barkley is pissed at Schoen - wrongly. Very similar to Love. Schoen offered the correct number and both turned it down. Schoen moved on. Plain and simple.
Basically, Schoen took the Barkley money and got some oline.
It is clear that while Mara has his druthers, Schoen rules the roost. The Maras have always loved their players as family, especially the Favs, and that is why the Giants have trouble holding on to players too long.
Interesting. Thanks.
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but I am just curious if it has been reported whether Saquon actually came back to the Giants with the Eagles offer? I think if he did not do that after saying he would (kind of) that would be a really bad move. Just curious if this has come out today.
i think that's what they are teasing we'll see in the next episode.
On that phone call Barkley seemed to indicate that he’d already told Schoen his asking price. Could be that I misinterpreted what he said, and hindsight is 20/20. To me it Barkley had made his mind up & he felt disrespected by Schoen. Again - it was only one phone call. Still, he had one foot out of the door.
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interesting documentary the NFL films put out was on the Roku channel "The Pick is In"; they did a new one this year for the 2024 draft that came out a couple of weeks ago, and one of the scenes it had was the Bears war room when the Giants were on the clock and universally they all thought the Giants were taking Nabers. Kevin Warren, the Bears President, says "They'll take Nabers, they gotta get the Quarterback some help". All their focus was on getting one of the two WR's (Odunze or Nabers) but it was interesting to see an outside organization sounding like it wasnt even a thought in their mind that the Giants would take McCarthy.
Interesting. Thanks.
Chicago couldn’t get to the podium fast enough to pick Odunze after Atlanta took Penix Jr.
Excellent stuff. I'll try to check that out.
i think you are right about this - but id imagine the main source of that frustration was hearing schoen spend 2 years saying they wanted him back and yet didnt put any offer on the table.
schoen was the one with the power of this decision not barkley, and he did nothing with the powers he had (be it putting an offer on the table or tagging or trading him earlier). he just let the clock run out (which i suspect was intentional but if not it was just stupid).
Until you see more evidence?
So Garofolo, multiple beat writers for both teams and a national reporter reporting what the offer was is not “enough evidence”?
What would be the determining factor that you would deem is “enough evidence”?
Seems like you are just trying to holding on the the narrative that they still want Jones and didn’t try to get Maye
Read what I wrote. I said I could see the interest in Maye, and discussions with New England, but I could also see Schoen being perfectly content sticking with Jones if they couldn't execute a trade.
What I don't know is how hard to the hole Schoen went to make a deal to buy the 3rd pick.
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Until you see more evidence?
So Garofolo, multiple beat writers for both teams and a national reporter reporting what the offer was is not “enough evidence”?
What would be the determining factor that you would deem is “enough evidence”?
Seems like you are just trying to holding on the the narrative that they still want Jones and didn’t try to get Maye
Read what I wrote. I said I could see the interest in Maye, and discussions with New England, but I could also see Schoen being perfectly content sticking with Jones if they couldn't execute a trade.
What I don't know is how hard to the hole Schoen went to make a deal to buy the 3rd pick.
No….you read what I wrote….the terms were released what they were willing to give up
Schoen felt the pressure, and offered more than a fair number. Seems Schoen felt they were close to a deal, and could franchise Jones. And something blew up at the end, forcing the Jones contract.
We know the Jones contract went down to the last minute. I think the Barkley contract blowing up and pivot to Jones deal is what took the ten years off Schoen life.
I think Schoen Daboll like Jones. But would have preferred a franchise contract rather than the commitment. Jones injury, I think is where Schoen feels Barkley screwed the franchise by not agreeing to a deal to allow the Jones franchise tag…
The frustration of dealing with Barkley, calling his Giant for Life bluff, and pressure from ownership all couldn't be more clear IMO
This is a good take. Barkley essentially helped screw up the Giants plans, and now he's gone to PHI with his middle finger in the air. That said, without having anything to do with Barkley, the Giants wanted to get DJ signed longterm after 2022, because they were concerned about the QB market values skyrocketing paired with DJ producing more with a better supporting cast.
They gambled that what happened last year wouldn't. And now that it has, the Barkley fiasco from a year ago feels like a fresh wound. As Schoen's refrain has been, had he simply accepted the original offer they all would've been fine.
No….you read what I wrote….the terms were released what they were willing to give up
Supposed terms were reported. That could mean Schoen was willing to consider two firsts, etc, but then he got cold feet. Maybe Wolf said toss in another player/second day pick, but Schoen wouldn't go that far.
So, I don't know what the actual BAFO was.
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No….you read what I wrote….the terms were released what they were willing to give up
Supposed terms were reported. That could mean Schoen was willing to consider two firsts, etc, but then he got cold feet. Maybe Wolf said toss in another player/second day pick, but Schoen wouldn't go that far.
So, I don't know what the actual BAFO was.
Oh….so now it’s supposed terms….gotcha
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In comment 16551328 Mbavaro said:
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No….you read what I wrote….the terms were released what they were willing to give up
Supposed terms were reported. That could mean Schoen was willing to consider two firsts, etc, but then he got cold feet. Maybe Wolf said toss in another player/second day pick, but Schoen wouldn't go that far.
So, I don't know what the actual BAFO was.
Oh….so now it’s supposed terms….gotcha
I don't know why this is confusing for you, but unless a trade is completed, the terms of an incomplete trade discussion are ALWAYS speculative.
I do tend to believe Garafolo's voice on the matter, but as a matter of common sense, there are only two ways to ever truly KNOW the terms of a trade negotiation: 1) the trade actually gets completed; 2) both teams expressly confirm the best and final offer/ask.
Oh….so now it’s supposed terms….gotcha
Let me add this. If you really identify a franchise QB that you think will move your franchise forward, and you are willing to sell assets to get him, then you find a way to make the deal. It's that simple. Because if you nail it, the deal will pay for itself.
Accorsi really wanted Eli, so he found a way.
I think Schoen liked Maye, but he didn't love him enough to move off Jones and really change the direction of the franchise.
So, we enter year six with Jones.
there is a reasonable argument both ways but i think an edge bender like burns is just too hard to find elsewhere. also a couple years younger than wilkins. there's a reason he got tagged and had trade value, players like him at that age do not hit the open market.
since last summer it's been clear schoen didnt want to bring barkley back. i hope motor works out and does a good job but i think schoen dropped the ball on that one. the deal barkley's team proposed last year, encompassing the $10m from tag, was fair. ed berry clearly saw the writing on the wall and i thought it was interesting when he asked schoen point blank if they wanted to move on he answered like natalie imbruglia. i give him credit for taking the less comfortable path, but i dont think that's going to provide much respite if barkley gains 2k yards and 10+ tds in philly this year. hopefully that OL implodes without kelce. schoen's entire strategy in that negotiation was reactive vs proactive. i would have liked to see more of daboll's thoughts on that but it seems like the giants put a wall up on that.
Is the issue Barkley (team icon) vs no Barkley?
Or is it that Daboll has sold the organization on the idea that a "bell cow" RB is a bad philosophy?
- What happens if he goes down? (We'vd experienced that!)
- RBBC gives the coordinator the ability to execute the "what you saw last week may not be what you see this week" strategy.
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Oh….so now it’s supposed terms….gotcha
Let me add this. If you really identify a franchise QB that you think will move your franchise forward, and you are willing to sell assets to get him, then you find a way to make the deal. It's that simple. Because if you nail it, the deal will pay for itself.
Accorsi really wanted Eli, so he found a way.
I think Schoen liked Maye, but he didn't love him enough to move off Jones and really change the direction of the franchise.
So, we enter year six with Jones.
Accorsi had a willing partner to trade
Schoen did not and you never no idea how much he may have liked Maye….could have been the price was too steep
Takes two to tango
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"We need to get around this kid and see if we can work with him because there is a lot to his personality,” area scout Scott Hamel said.
Is this an indication they were/are concerned about the high maintenance rumor (see: strip club video)? Or they think he just has an outgoing personality?
This coupled with watching a ton of Odunze last season and then seeing him in this episode has me really wishing we took him. Nabers seems like he is going to be a very high risk/high reward pick. Odunze ceiling may be lower by a smidge but his floor is absolutely higher by a mile. Barring injury he will be a hell of a player.
Really hope we got it right. All coaches think they can help players be who they need to be. It ain't that easy.
I agree with the old fashioned NYG philosophy of intelligence and character being important. If you deviate you can get burned (e.g. DeAndre Baker).
But at the very elite level, the very same characteristics that make a player a "rebel" vs contemporary standards are the same that make him "All Pro" (see Taylor, Lawrence; Lewis, Ray)
The staff, led by have decided to take that gamble.
1. Schoen contacted the Pats early and often regarding what it would take to get a deal done.
2. Early on he made an Offer of our 2024 1st pick, 2025 1st and 2025 3rd pick for their 2024 1st round (#3)
3. Stayed in touch constantly monitoring the situation, Kraft and the Pats were known to be in love with JJM.
4. Once the draftboards were set and JJM wasn't in the top ten for the Pats....the conversations internally changed.
5. Giants were told they needed to up the ante either day of the draft or the day before. They finally relented and added a pick. I was never told what additional pick they offered.
The Pats decided to keep the pick, end of story.
Draw whatever conclusions you want. The Giants tried hard to get Maye, it didn't work out.
1. Schoen contacted the Pats early and often regarding what it would take to get a deal done.
2. Early on he made an Offer of our 2024 1st pick, 2025 1st and 2025 3rd pick for their 2024 1st round (#3)
3. Stayed in touch constantly monitoring the situation, Kraft and the Pats were known to be in love with JJM.
4. Once the draftboards were set and JJM wasn't in the top ten for the Pats....the conversations internally changed.
5. Giants were told they needed to up the ante either day of the draft or the day before. They finally relented and added a pick. I was never told what additional pick they offered.
The Pats decided to keep the pick, end of story.
Draw whatever conclusions you want. The Giants tried hard to get Maye, it didn't work out.
This seems very obvious. NYG badly wanted Maye.
1. Schoen contacted the Pats early and often regarding what it would take to get a deal done.
2. Early on he made an Offer of our 2024 1st pick, 2025 1st and 2025 3rd pick for their 2024 1st round (#3)
3. Stayed in touch constantly monitoring the situation, Kraft and the Pats were known to be in love with JJM.
4. Once the draftboards were set and JJM wasn't in the top ten for the Pats....the conversations internally changed.
5. Giants were told they needed to up the ante either day of the draft or the day before. They finally relented and added a pick. I was never told what additional pick they offered.
The Pats decided to keep the pick, end of story.
Draw whatever conclusions you want. The Giants tried hard to get Maye, it didn't work out.
Thanks for sharing this. That is a very generous offer by Schoen - and clearly indicates he wanted Maye badly. My guess is the Pats sensed at some point that the JJM-mania was just subterfuge and realized they would be insane not to simply sit tight and take Maye. Smart decision by them and unfortunate for us.
Draw whatever conclusions you want. The Giants tried hard to get Maye, it didn't work out.
Are you suggesting we should give Schoen credit for trying "hard"?
There is that line in the movie Social Network where the Mark Zuckerberg character says to the Winklevoss twins that if they were the inventors of Facebook, they would have invented Facebook.
If Schoen really wanted Maye, the Giants would have Maye on their roster right now.
Watch Schoen when he calls Barkley's agent.