It’s become pretty clear that Daboll made the choice of drafting Nabers. He loved the kid and wanted him bad for the offense. I just hope the right decision was made in the long run. There’s a chance Daboll isn’t here next year. There’s also character concerns with Nabers that need to be managed. Odunze doesn’t have a high a ceiling as Nabers, but his floor is higher and his work ethic will make him a high end pro. In the end, would the Giants prefer a dominant 3-4 year stretch like OBJ had here, or a cornerstone franchise WR like Mike Evans over a 10 season stretch.
all my info comes from my relationship within the Pats org.
1. Schoen contacted the Pats early and often regarding what it would take to get a deal done.
2. Early on he made an Offer of our 2024 1st pick, 2025 1st and 2025 3rd pick for their 2024 1st round (#3)
3. Stayed in touch constantly monitoring the situation, Kraft and the Pats were known to be in love with JJM.
4. Once the draftboards were set and JJM wasn't in the top ten for the Pats....the conversations internally changed.
5. Giants were told they needed to up the ante either day of the draft or the day before. They finally relented and added a pick. I was never told what additional pick they offered.
The Pats decided to keep the pick, end of story.
Draw whatever conclusions you want. The Giants tried hard to get Maye, it didn't work out.
I remember you telling us. Thanks for sharing again.
Draw whatever conclusions you want. The Giants tried hard to get Maye, it didn't work out.
Are you suggesting we should give Schoen credit for trying "hard"?
There is that line in the movie Social Network where the Mark Zuckerberg character says to the Winklevoss twins that if they were the inventors of Facebook, they would have invented Facebook.
If Schoen really wanted Maye, the Giants would have Maye on their roster right now.
The Chargers really wanted Rivers, so they found a way to have their cake and eat it too. If the Patriots had preferred JJM to Maye, perhaps things turn out differently than they had. But it's hard (maybe even impossible) to talk a team that desperately needs a QB into trading away the pick that would land them the QB of their choice.
In the end, would the Giants prefer a dominant 3-4 year stretch like OBJ had here, or a cornerstone franchise WR like Mike Evans over a 10 season stretch.
Why exactly is *this* the choice? Who says Nabers can't be a cornerstone franchise WR?
Why is Odunze certainly not one of the many jumbo-sized WRs that fail?
You're digging your heels in way too much. I get you want it to be all about Jones and how much this regime loves him.
The Dolphins reportedly offered three 1st round picks for Burrow. Guess what, the Bengals didn't move him.
Your argument would carry a lot more weight had the Patriots traded the pick. They didn't.
If true, that was a great offer by Miami. And if I am a Fins fan, I could live with that effort. Although I believe that was all three if Miami's firsts in the 2020 draft, not future drafts...?
Of course, Miami compounded that miss by passing on Herbert.
It doesn't appear from reporting that Schoen went with a package that strong. It was only two firsts, not three. That is a material difference.
RE: If Schoen really wanted Maye, the Giants would have Maye
In the end, would the Giants prefer a dominant 3-4 year stretch like OBJ had here, or a cornerstone franchise WR like Mike Evans over a 10 season stretch.
Why exactly is *this* the choice? Who says Nabers can't be a cornerstone franchise WR?
Why is Odunze certainly not one of the many jumbo-sized WRs that fail?
He’s not jumbo sized, he’s 6’3 215-220 lbs. He also has a strong work ethic and solid production in college. He has everything possible to succeed at the NFL level.
Assuming the reports are accurate about Schoen's offer to Wolfe (the 6th pick and the first in 2024), was that a fair offer or a great offer?
I heard it reported that it was a 2024 first, 2024 third, 2025 first and then they added a 5th as well to sweeten the pot. This was reported by the Talkin Giants guys and given what Rico reported the day of the draft, I have to believe Schoen thought he had a deal. Then the Pats retreated.
Everyone believes what they want to believe I suppose.
Assuming the reports are accurate about Schoen's offer to Wolfe (the 6th pick and the first in 2024), was that a fair offer or a great offer?
I heard it reported that it was a 2024 first, 2024 third, 2025 first and then they added a 5th as well to sweeten the pot. This was reported by the Talkin Giants guys and given what Rico reported the day of the draft, I have to believe Schoen thought he had a deal. Then the Pats retreated.
Everyone believes what they want to believe I suppose.
I'm glad you raised the Rico reference because I have been meaning to go back and read that draft say thread.
Anyway, you're a smart guy. Do you think that offer you cited was a great offer or a very fair offer?
Slots aside, SF put three down for Lance. So anything short of that is up for debate.
Wasn't SF making a higher jump than 6 to 3?
bw: Schoen would have needed to throw in a 2026 first to really get NE's attention I'm sure. Was that ever on the table? I don't know. Would NE have done it? Who knows.
Then you get to a point where it's a bigger return than the move for Eli.
You're digging your heels in way too much. I get you want it to be all about Jones and how much this regime loves him.
The Dolphins reportedly offered three 1st round picks for Burrow. Guess what, the Bengals didn't move him.
Your argument would carry a lot more weight had the Patriots traded the pick. They didn't.
If true, that was a great offer by Miami. And if I am a Fins fan, I could live with that effort. Although I believe that was all three if Miami's firsts in the 2020 draft, not future drafts...?
Of course, Miami compounded that miss by passing on Herbert.
It doesn't appear from reporting that Schoen went with a package that strong. It was only two firsts, not three. That is a material difference.
We were moving from 6 to 3, not 5 to 1 (like Miami). Moving up fewer spots from a similarly-valued pick to a far less valuable pick.
Even so, I would think our package is better than theirs (5, 18, and 30). It’s a good bet our ‘25 pick would be in the top-10 with a rookie QB and no Nabers.
To me it Barkley had made his mind up & he felt disrespected by Schoen. Again - it was only one phone call. Still, he had one foot out of the door.
i think you are right about this - but id imagine the main source of that frustration was hearing schoen spend 2 years saying they wanted him back and yet didnt put any offer on the table.
FFS, how did Schoen not put any offer on the table since July 2022? That's just demonstrably not true.
Schoen did the right thing here, IMO, and probably a year too late actually. Barkley wanted more money than he was worth. But based on everything we've seen, Mara most likely wouldn't let Barkley walk away in 2023.
RE: 6th pick & 1st in 2024), was that a fair offer or a great offer?
I assume you mean 6th overall pick in 2024 and Giant first rounder in 2025.
The short answer is IF that was the Giants offered as compensation to the Pats, that wasn't a great offer by the Giants and would not indicate Schoen really wanted Maye.
Assuming the compensation offered was more like what Rico/Sean indicated (2024 first, 2024 third, 2025 first and 2024 or 2025 5th) that is at least a fair offer, maybe a borderline great offer to drop only from 3rd overall to 6th overall.
Assuming the above (2024 first, 2024 third, 2025 first and 2024 or 2025 5th) was the offer and it was rejected by the Pats, how much more would you be willing to give up to sweeten the offer?
2024 2nd?
2024 and 2025 2nd?
2024 2nd and 2026 1st?
I think if the Giants gave up much more than what was reportedly offered to trade up for Maye, they would had to be close to 100% certain Maye was going to be a future franchise QB. These teams likely were just a certain they were drafting (and in multiple cases, trading up to get them) a future franchise QB.
2017 2nd M Trubisky
2018 2nd S Darnold
2021 2nd Z Wilson
2021 3rd T Lance
The 49ers got very lucky that after they whiffed on Lance, the hit on Purdy.
We'll likely never know whether the Pats would have listened to an even sweeter offer or if they just stopped picking up the phone (as Chicago likely did).
Nabers + 2024 3rd (A Phillips) + 2025 1st + 2025 5th >> Maye IMHO
Assuming the reports are accurate about Schoen's offer to Wolfe (the 6th pick and the first in 2024), was that a fair offer or a great offer?
I heard it reported that it was a 2024 first, 2024 third, 2025 first and then they added a 5th as well to sweeten the pot. This was reported by the Talkin Giants guys and given what Rico reported the day of the draft, I have to believe Schoen thought he had a deal. Then the Pats retreated.
Everyone believes what they want to believe I suppose.
I'm glad you raised the Rico reference because I have been meaning to go back and read that draft say thread.
Anyway, you're a smart guy. Do you think that offer you cited was a great offer or a very fair offer?
I think it was a more than fair offer. It was "only" three spots and fantastic players were still going to be available including McCarthy(most likely). It is not like NE was losing its ability to get a great player.
What is clear is that it didn't matter what was offered because the Pats wanted Maye and weren't moving.
To me it Barkley had made his mind up & he felt disrespected by Schoen. Again - it was only one phone call. Still, he had one foot out of the door.
i think you are right about this - but id imagine the main source of that frustration was hearing schoen spend 2 years saying they wanted him back and yet didnt put any offer on the table.
FFS, how did Schoen not put any offer on the table since July 2022? That's just demonstrably not true.
Schoen did the right thing here, IMO, and probably a year too late actually. Barkley wanted more money than he was worth. But based on everything we've seen, Mara most likely wouldn't let Barkley walk away in 2023.
Outside of his rookie year, SB hasn't been worth the money he wanted. He and his agents badly overplayed their hand and contributed to the mess that ensued. See ya.
Eric, I wonder if Schoen is actually talking about last year.
My subjective, opinionated take is that Schoen didn't really want Barkley back and Barkley didn't really want to come back.
Everything else seems like background noise to me.
This.
Schoen in his absolute gut knows paying that position that contract hurts you in team building. Berry called him out on it over the phone - and I think he was right.
It also sounds like from a business perspective these guys have some bad blood after last offseason - it was a good thing for both parties to walk away.
Didn't Barkley change agents after last year?
RE: RE: Reading the tea leaves and piecing it together
It can’t be more clear how the Barkley situation played out the past 18+ months. Mara and Co desperately wanted him to be the face of the franchise for the next 25 years, and already ordering the ring of honor signage. And willing to resign him at any cost.
Schoen felt the pressure, and offered more than a fair number. Seems Schoen felt they were close to a deal, and could franchise Jones. And something blew up at the end, forcing the Jones contract.
We know the Jones contract went down to the last minute. I think the Barkley contract blowing up and pivot to Jones deal is what took the ten years off Schoen life.
I think Schoen Daboll like Jones. But would have preferred a franchise contract rather than the commitment. Jones injury, I think is where Schoen feels Barkley screwed the franchise by not agreeing to a deal to allow the Jones franchise tag…
I 100% agree. It's total conjecture of course, but all the pieces fit. It looks to me like Schoen's directive in the 2023 offseason was to keep both Barkley and Jones, and Schoen rightly wanted to sign Barkley and franchise Jones (if Jones wouldn't take a reasonable deal).
Barkley fucked that plan by demanding an extra year or whatever (after signing with the Eables Barkley said he got the 4th guaranteed year that he wanted, i.e. 2023 with the Giants and the 3 years with the Eagles) so Schoen had to pivot with little time to sign Jones to a deal that wouldn't screw the 2023 cap (barley eating up $12 million by getting the FT), but because Jones's camp was playing hardball and knew they had all the leverage (time running out, no more franchise tag), Jone's deal ended up with a big cap hit in 2024.
That's why Schoen kept mentioning the $40 million. He is freakin annoyed, IMO, that he is stuck with Jones on what is now his THIRD prove-it year, except now he has to pay Jones $40 million to prove his worth. He couldn't let Jones walk in FA because Mara wanted him on the team (again, just conjecture, but certainly looks that way based on what we've seen so far).
If it is true we offered 6th overall, a 2025 first, and a 2024 third for 3rd overall, IMO that is a great offer. It is comparable to what the 49ers gave up to get up to 3rd for Trey Lance, which I think everyone agrees was a great deal for the Dolphins.
49ers gave up the 12th overall, two future firsts (next yr + 2 yrs away), and a third to get to 3rd. So the difference between that and the Giants offer is 12th overall +a first round pick in two years versus 6th overall. At the very least those are comparable, but IMO a 6th is probably worth more than 12th + a first round pick in two years.
Also keep in mind the Dolphins actually moved up to 6th in the same draft, so effectively the Dolphins got:
3rd overall in exchange for 6th overall, a first in two years, and 3rd round pick
Bottom line, there's a lot of evidence to show that we were willing to give up multiple premium assets to acquire him. We wouldn't have done that if Jones was in the long term plans.
Our roster needs players, I fully understand why a line was drawn in the sand on what we'd give up for Maye, but don't act like we didn't offer a lot to get him.
Bottom line, there's a lot of evidence to show that we were willing to give up multiple premium assets to acquire him. We wouldn't have done that if Jones was in the long term plans.
Our roster needs players, I fully understand why a line was drawn in the sand on what we'd give up for Maye, but don't act like we didn't offer a lot to get him.
This!!!!
But it destroys the narrative of the usual suspects that the team is still all in on DJ
Bottom line, there's a lot of evidence to show that we were willing to give up multiple premium assets to acquire him. We wouldn't have done that if Jones was in the long term plans.
Our roster needs players, I fully understand why a line was drawn in the sand on what we'd give up for Maye, but don't act like we didn't offer a lot to get him.
This!!!!
But it destroys the narrative of the usual suspects that the team is still all in on DJ
I haven't seen a single BBIer say the Giants are "all in" on DJ. Nor one who thinks they should be now, or a year ago.
His contract told the tale, even before Schoen said the plan was always to give him 2 years to show he's the guy for the next 10.
Bottom line, there's a lot of evidence to show that we were willing to give up multiple premium assets to acquire him. We wouldn't have done that if Jones was in the long term plans.
Our roster needs players, I fully understand why a line was drawn in the sand on what we'd give up for Maye, but don't act like we didn't offer a lot to get him.
+1.
also there was a recent trade of #6 for #3 where a QB was selected. Jets moved up for Darnold, who like Maye was considered at the time a 1oa quality prospect.
that cost them 3 second rounders. 2 in 2018, 1 the following year. by all accounts the nyg were willing to give up more than that offer.
Bottom line, there's a lot of evidence to show that we were willing to give up multiple premium assets to acquire him. We wouldn't have done that if Jones was in the long term plans.
Our roster needs players, I fully understand why a line was drawn in the sand on what we'd give up for Maye, but don't act like we didn't offer a lot to get him.
This!!!!
But it destroys the narrative of the usual suspects that the team is still all in on DJ
I haven't seen a single BBIer say the Giants are "all in" on DJ. Nor one who thinks they should be now, or a year ago.
His contract told the tale, even before Schoen said the plan was always to give him 2 years to show he's the guy for the next 10.
Really?
I’ve seen many opine that the offer to Maye wasn’t that strong and that the team still believes in DJ
Or that there interest in a QB was just a smokescreen
You are quoting from Hard Knocks….I am referring to pre HK before we heard Schoen say they quote about 2 years
Really?
I’ve seen many opine that the offer to Maye wasn’t that strong and that the team still believes in DJ
Or that there interest in a QB was just a smokescreen
You are quoting from Hard Knocks….I am referring to pre HK before we heard Schoen say they quote about 2 years
Like I said, the contract told the tale a year ago - a 2 year commitment. Schoen didn't have to say it.
Who knows about Maye. It could have been a smokescreen - the people (led by Dan Duggan) who reported it or wish continue to call it fact. As Jones told one of the reporters - he doesn't know what happened draft day and (the reporter) doesn't either. Maybe we'll find out more in the next episode.
We don't know exactly what they think of DJ. Obviously they think they can win with him. But from declining his option to a contract structured for a 2 year out to Schoen's HK comments, the one thing we know is they've never been all in. I'd have worried if they were.
In the end, would the Giants prefer a dominant 3-4 year stretch like OBJ had here, or a cornerstone franchise WR like Mike Evans over a 10 season stretch.
Why exactly is *this* the choice? Who says Nabers can't be a cornerstone franchise WR?
Why is Odunze certainly not one of the many jumbo-sized WRs that fail?
He’s not jumbo sized, he’s 6’3 215-220 lbs. He also has a strong work ethic and solid production in college. He has everything possible to succeed at the NFL level.
Nearly every player projected to round 1 does. They dont all work. Not remotely suggesting he'd fail, but i dont understad those two outcomes seemingly being what you're choosing between.
Perhaps 2 1s was never a serious offer. They reportedly turned that down - but no one was going to be dumb enough to offer that much again. And they probably know he was going to be gone and they thought this was the best they could get.
RE: Barkley - he was disappointed. He wanted to stay a Giant and he wanted the most money he could get. It's a business, but feelings get involved as well.
Didn't anyone think Worthy could still run even a little bit faster? Last could steps he looked like he was transitioning to look at the clock. That guy looks like he could bet closer to high 4.1_ territory.
I prefer a current training camp hard knocks, this behind the scenes
Giants made a very fair offer for Maye. But as I said, it's just really hard to get a team that needs a franchise QB and can draft one at their pick to trade. A GM who does that risks having the pick they traded become a franchise QB for another team, which will absolutely and rightly get them fired. It might also mean they would never be considered for another GM job ever again.
What the offer confirms is that Schoen, Daboll, etc. are not sold on Jones. More proof is his contract, which has a $22M "out" after this year.
The Giants Insider with Jerry Foley and Chris Bisignano. Chris believes strongly they were trying to move up and snag Joe Alt. Entire QB play, to him, was a smoke screen.
I have total confidence they were picking Maye at #3 if they were ever able to move up. Especially with Schoen and how often he's brought up Daniel's availability over the last three seasons.
The Giants Insider with Jerry Foley and Chris Bisignano. Chris believes strongly they were trying to move up and snag Joe Alt. Entire QB play, to him, was a smoke screen.
I have total confidence they were picking Maye at #3 if they were ever able to move up. Especially with Schoen and how often he's brought up Daniel's availability over the last three seasons.
Alt was never their target and when someone as low-rung as Bisignano is the only "insider" claiming that, it's time to find a different podcast.
The Giants Insider with Jerry Foley and Chris Bisignano. Chris believes strongly they were trying to move up and snag Joe Alt. Entire QB play, to him, was a smoke screen.
I have total confidence they were picking Maye at #3 if they were ever able to move up. Especially with Schoen and how often he's brought up Daniel's availability over the last three seasons.
Alt was never their target and when someone as low-rung as Bisignano is the only "insider" claiming that, it's time to find a different podcast.
I like Jerry Foley, and tune out Chris.
But he's not the only person saying it. Adam Schefter was all over it.
The Giants Insider with Jerry Foley and Chris Bisignano. Chris believes strongly they were trying to move up and snag Joe Alt. Entire QB play, to him, was a smoke screen.
I have total confidence they were picking Maye at #3 if they were ever able to move up. Especially with Schoen and how often he's brought up Daniel's availability over the last three seasons.
Alt was never their target and when someone as low-rung as Bisignano is the only "insider" claiming that, it's time to find a different podcast.
Wow. I'm glad I don't listen to that podcast. What a moronic statement by Bisignano. Sure, they were going to trade up for Alt yet they didn't engage with the Cardinals at all once Maye was taken.
though i think he clarified that it was his opinion not sourced reporting. could be mixing that up though.
Sy doesn't believe the Giants were interested in trading up for Maye. Not sure why. Seems pretty clear to me.
Again, if the Giants were so enamored with Alt, why didn't they talk with Arizona? I believe it was reported Schoen didn't even call them once NE selected Maye.
though i think he clarified that it was his opinion not sourced reporting. could be mixing that up though.
I think you are right.
Sy seemed to be suggesting that since the OL had so many holes, and there were/are huge question marks surrounding a high investment like Neal, going for Alt would make sense.
RE: RE: i think sy said the same thing as bisangio
though i think he clarified that it was his opinion not sourced reporting. could be mixing that up though.
Sy doesn't believe the Giants were interested in trading up for Maye. Not sure why. Seems pretty clear to me.
Again, if the Giants were so enamored with Alt, why didn't they talk with Arizona? I believe it was reported Schoen didn't even call them once NE selected Maye.
i agree with you, i think this is pretty obvious. through 3 years schoen hasnt been all that concerned with hiding his thoughts/intentions. i very much doubt there was a super secret plan to move up for alt that has eluded every beat writer. drake maye was/is a really good prospect who they liked a lot and NE also liked enough to not be willing to draft down 3 slots while picking up another QB they allegedly also really liked with JJM.
Just got around to watching this now - I thought it was fascinating
-Loved Daboll quizzing the QBs in their interview. Really interesting how he changed it up on them live to make sure they really had knowledge rather just memorizing things, also cool how he'd go back to an early question later to make sure he had a good memory.
- Hannah WoW
- good seeing the real Daboll, how he relates to players and how really knowledgable he is about offense
1. Schoen contacted the Pats early and often regarding what it would take to get a deal done.
2. Early on he made an Offer of our 2024 1st pick, 2025 1st and 2025 3rd pick for their 2024 1st round (#3)
3. Stayed in touch constantly monitoring the situation, Kraft and the Pats were known to be in love with JJM.
4. Once the draftboards were set and JJM wasn't in the top ten for the Pats....the conversations internally changed.
5. Giants were told they needed to up the ante either day of the draft or the day before. They finally relented and added a pick. I was never told what additional pick they offered.
The Pats decided to keep the pick, end of story.
Draw whatever conclusions you want. The Giants tried hard to get Maye, it didn't work out.
I remember you telling us. Thanks for sharing again.
Quote:
Draw whatever conclusions you want. The Giants tried hard to get Maye, it didn't work out.
Are you suggesting we should give Schoen credit for trying "hard"?
There is that line in the movie Social Network where the Mark Zuckerberg character says to the Winklevoss twins that if they were the inventors of Facebook, they would have invented Facebook.
If Schoen really wanted Maye, the Giants would have Maye on their roster right now.
bw in dc, you're smarter than that response.
If the Pats really wanted Maye, he'd be a Patriot right now.
And he is.
Accorsi really wanted Eli, so he found a way.
Why exactly is *this* the choice? Who says Nabers can't be a cornerstone franchise WR?
Why is Odunze certainly not one of the many jumbo-sized WRs that fail?
The Dolphins reportedly offered three 1st round picks for Burrow. Guess what, the Bengals didn't move him.
Your argument would carry a lot more weight had the Patriots traded the pick. They didn't.
Thats Cooper Dejean or Kool Aid Mckinstry
This is like taking the new car or the mystery box on a game show.
Would you rather have a 25 year old pro bowl pass rusher or a rookie cornerback who it hasn't been determined can actually play at this level.
The Dolphins reportedly offered three 1st round picks for Burrow. Guess what, the Bengals didn't move him.
Your argument would carry a lot more weight had the Patriots traded the pick. They didn't.
If true, that was a great offer by Miami. And if I am a Fins fan, I could live with that effort. Although I believe that was all three if Miami's firsts in the 2020 draft, not future drafts...?
Of course, Miami compounded that miss by passing on Herbert.
It doesn't appear from reporting that Schoen went with a package that strong. It was only two firsts, not three. That is a material difference.
How about duplicating the Hershel Walker trade for Maye?
If someone loves your house, they can offer you 10x over its value, but if you don't want to sell, you don't have to.
You can offer a team the proverbial "King's Ransom", but if they don't want to trade, it doesn't happen.
Maye could turn out to be an amazing pro, but at an average 50% bust rate for first round QBs, there is a point where the price is too high.
It would be interesting to read how far you would have gone to "make the Pats an offer they couldn't refuse".
2024, 2025 and 2026 first rounders?
2024, 2025 and 2026 first rounders and Andrew Thomas?
2024, 2025 and 2026 first rounders and Andrew Thomas and Dexter Lawrence?
2024, 2025 and 2026 first, second and third rounders?
Yes, Schoen could have offered 9 draft picks and two All Pro players and the Pats would have taken the deal. Would that make Schoen a good GM?
Schoen likely offered a "premium" for a potential franchise QB and that wasn't enough.
He can try again in 2025.
Quote:
In the end, would the Giants prefer a dominant 3-4 year stretch like OBJ had here, or a cornerstone franchise WR like Mike Evans over a 10 season stretch.
Why exactly is *this* the choice? Who says Nabers can't be a cornerstone franchise WR?
Why is Odunze certainly not one of the many jumbo-sized WRs that fail?
He’s not jumbo sized, he’s 6’3 215-220 lbs. He also has a strong work ethic and solid production in college. He has everything possible to succeed at the NFL level.
I heard it reported that it was a 2024 first, 2024 third, 2025 first and then they added a 5th as well to sweeten the pot. This was reported by the Talkin Giants guys and given what Rico reported the day of the draft, I have to believe Schoen thought he had a deal. Then the Pats retreated.
Everyone believes what they want to believe I suppose.
Quote:
Assuming the reports are accurate about Schoen's offer to Wolfe (the 6th pick and the first in 2024), was that a fair offer or a great offer?
I heard it reported that it was a 2024 first, 2024 third, 2025 first and then they added a 5th as well to sweeten the pot. This was reported by the Talkin Giants guys and given what Rico reported the day of the draft, I have to believe Schoen thought he had a deal. Then the Pats retreated.
Everyone believes what they want to believe I suppose.
I'm glad you raised the Rico reference because I have been meaning to go back and read that draft say thread.
Anyway, you're a smart guy. Do you think that offer you cited was a great offer or a very fair offer?
Wasn't SF making a higher jump than 6 to 3?
bw: Schoen would have needed to throw in a 2026 first to really get NE's attention I'm sure. Was that ever on the table? I don't know. Would NE have done it? Who knows.
Then you get to a point where it's a bigger return than the move for Eli.
Quote:
You're digging your heels in way too much. I get you want it to be all about Jones and how much this regime loves him.
The Dolphins reportedly offered three 1st round picks for Burrow. Guess what, the Bengals didn't move him.
Your argument would carry a lot more weight had the Patriots traded the pick. They didn't.
If true, that was a great offer by Miami. And if I am a Fins fan, I could live with that effort. Although I believe that was all three if Miami's firsts in the 2020 draft, not future drafts...?
Of course, Miami compounded that miss by passing on Herbert.
It doesn't appear from reporting that Schoen went with a package that strong. It was only two firsts, not three. That is a material difference.
Even so, I would think our package is better than theirs (5, 18, and 30). It’s a good bet our ‘25 pick would be in the top-10 with a rookie QB and no Nabers.
Quote:
To me it Barkley had made his mind up & he felt disrespected by Schoen. Again - it was only one phone call. Still, he had one foot out of the door.
i think you are right about this - but id imagine the main source of that frustration was hearing schoen spend 2 years saying they wanted him back and yet didnt put any offer on the table.
FFS, how did Schoen not put any offer on the table since July 2022? That's just demonstrably not true.
Schoen did the right thing here, IMO, and probably a year too late actually. Barkley wanted more money than he was worth. But based on everything we've seen, Mara most likely wouldn't let Barkley walk away in 2023.
The short answer is IF that was the Giants offered as compensation to the Pats, that wasn't a great offer by the Giants and would not indicate Schoen really wanted Maye.
Assuming the compensation offered was more like what Rico/Sean indicated (2024 first, 2024 third, 2025 first and 2024 or 2025 5th) that is at least a fair offer, maybe a borderline great offer to drop only from 3rd overall to 6th overall.
Assuming the above (2024 first, 2024 third, 2025 first and 2024 or 2025 5th) was the offer and it was rejected by the Pats, how much more would you be willing to give up to sweeten the offer?
2024 2nd?
2024 and 2025 2nd?
2024 2nd and 2026 1st?
I think if the Giants gave up much more than what was reportedly offered to trade up for Maye, they would had to be close to 100% certain Maye was going to be a future franchise QB. These teams likely were just a certain they were drafting (and in multiple cases, trading up to get them) a future franchise QB.
2017 2nd M Trubisky
2018 2nd S Darnold
2021 2nd Z Wilson
2021 3rd T Lance
The 49ers got very lucky that after they whiffed on Lance, the hit on Purdy.
We'll likely never know whether the Pats would have listened to an even sweeter offer or if they just stopped picking up the phone (as Chicago likely did).
Nabers + 2024 3rd (A Phillips) + 2025 1st + 2025 5th >> Maye IMHO
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In comment 16551460 bw in dc said:
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Assuming the reports are accurate about Schoen's offer to Wolfe (the 6th pick and the first in 2024), was that a fair offer or a great offer?
I heard it reported that it was a 2024 first, 2024 third, 2025 first and then they added a 5th as well to sweeten the pot. This was reported by the Talkin Giants guys and given what Rico reported the day of the draft, I have to believe Schoen thought he had a deal. Then the Pats retreated.
Everyone believes what they want to believe I suppose.
I'm glad you raised the Rico reference because I have been meaning to go back and read that draft say thread.
Anyway, you're a smart guy. Do you think that offer you cited was a great offer or a very fair offer?
I think it was a more than fair offer. It was "only" three spots and fantastic players were still going to be available including McCarthy(most likely). It is not like NE was losing its ability to get a great player.
What is clear is that it didn't matter what was offered because the Pats wanted Maye and weren't moving.
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In comment 16551298 RCPhoenix said:
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To me it Barkley had made his mind up & he felt disrespected by Schoen. Again - it was only one phone call. Still, he had one foot out of the door.
i think you are right about this - but id imagine the main source of that frustration was hearing schoen spend 2 years saying they wanted him back and yet didnt put any offer on the table.
FFS, how did Schoen not put any offer on the table since July 2022? That's just demonstrably not true.
Schoen did the right thing here, IMO, and probably a year too late actually. Barkley wanted more money than he was worth. But based on everything we've seen, Mara most likely wouldn't let Barkley walk away in 2023.
Outside of his rookie year, SB hasn't been worth the money he wanted. He and his agents badly overplayed their hand and contributed to the mess that ensued. See ya.
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In comment 16550624 christian said:
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Eric, I wonder if Schoen is actually talking about last year.
My subjective, opinionated take is that Schoen didn't really want Barkley back and Barkley didn't really want to come back.
Everything else seems like background noise to me.
This.
Schoen in his absolute gut knows paying that position that contract hurts you in team building. Berry called him out on it over the phone - and I think he was right.
It also sounds like from a business perspective these guys have some bad blood after last offseason - it was a good thing for both parties to walk away.
Didn't Barkley change agents after last year?
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It can’t be more clear how the Barkley situation played out the past 18+ months. Mara and Co desperately wanted him to be the face of the franchise for the next 25 years, and already ordering the ring of honor signage. And willing to resign him at any cost.
Schoen felt the pressure, and offered more than a fair number. Seems Schoen felt they were close to a deal, and could franchise Jones. And something blew up at the end, forcing the Jones contract.
We know the Jones contract went down to the last minute. I think the Barkley contract blowing up and pivot to Jones deal is what took the ten years off Schoen life.
I think Schoen Daboll like Jones. But would have preferred a franchise contract rather than the commitment. Jones injury, I think is where Schoen feels Barkley screwed the franchise by not agreeing to a deal to allow the Jones franchise tag…
I 100% agree. It's total conjecture of course, but all the pieces fit. It looks to me like Schoen's directive in the 2023 offseason was to keep both Barkley and Jones, and Schoen rightly wanted to sign Barkley and franchise Jones (if Jones wouldn't take a reasonable deal).
Barkley fucked that plan by demanding an extra year or whatever (after signing with the Eables Barkley said he got the 4th guaranteed year that he wanted, i.e. 2023 with the Giants and the 3 years with the Eagles) so Schoen had to pivot with little time to sign Jones to a deal that wouldn't screw the 2023 cap (barley eating up $12 million by getting the FT), but because Jones's camp was playing hardball and knew they had all the leverage (time running out, no more franchise tag), Jone's deal ended up with a big cap hit in 2024.
That's why Schoen kept mentioning the $40 million. He is freakin annoyed, IMO, that he is stuck with Jones on what is now his THIRD prove-it year, except now he has to pay Jones $40 million to prove his worth. He couldn't let Jones walk in FA because Mara wanted him on the team (again, just conjecture, but certainly looks that way based on what we've seen so far).
I think this is the best explanation
However, he's smart enough to know what the right response should be too.
****
Pivoting to Nabers... was Nabers smart enough to honestly admit he hates losing more than he likes winning?
That's usually a canned response too.
But if not, that's the kind of player we need. That's what Bill Parcells actually looked for.
So did Gettleman. Lol
49ers gave up the 12th overall, two future firsts (next yr + 2 yrs away), and a third to get to 3rd. So the difference between that and the Giants offer is 12th overall +a first round pick in two years versus 6th overall. At the very least those are comparable, but IMO a 6th is probably worth more than 12th + a first round pick in two years.
Also keep in mind the Dolphins actually moved up to 6th in the same draft, so effectively the Dolphins got:
3rd overall in exchange for 6th overall, a first in two years, and 3rd round pick
Bottom line, there's a lot of evidence to show that we were willing to give up multiple premium assets to acquire him. We wouldn't have done that if Jones was in the long term plans.
Our roster needs players, I fully understand why a line was drawn in the sand on what we'd give up for Maye, but don't act like we didn't offer a lot to get him.
Bottom line, there's a lot of evidence to show that we were willing to give up multiple premium assets to acquire him. We wouldn't have done that if Jones was in the long term plans.
Our roster needs players, I fully understand why a line was drawn in the sand on what we'd give up for Maye, but don't act like we didn't offer a lot to get him.
This!!!!
But it destroys the narrative of the usual suspects that the team is still all in on DJ
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on the trade up for Maye thing.
Bottom line, there's a lot of evidence to show that we were willing to give up multiple premium assets to acquire him. We wouldn't have done that if Jones was in the long term plans.
Our roster needs players, I fully understand why a line was drawn in the sand on what we'd give up for Maye, but don't act like we didn't offer a lot to get him.
This!!!!
But it destroys the narrative of the usual suspects that the team is still all in on DJ
I haven't seen a single BBIer say the Giants are "all in" on DJ. Nor one who thinks they should be now, or a year ago.
His contract told the tale, even before Schoen said the plan was always to give him 2 years to show he's the guy for the next 10.
Bottom line, there's a lot of evidence to show that we were willing to give up multiple premium assets to acquire him. We wouldn't have done that if Jones was in the long term plans.
Our roster needs players, I fully understand why a line was drawn in the sand on what we'd give up for Maye, but don't act like we didn't offer a lot to get him.
+1.
also there was a recent trade of #6 for #3 where a QB was selected. Jets moved up for Darnold, who like Maye was considered at the time a 1oa quality prospect.
that cost them 3 second rounders. 2 in 2018, 1 the following year. by all accounts the nyg were willing to give up more than that offer.
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In comment 16551639 Biteymax22 said:
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on the trade up for Maye thing.
Bottom line, there's a lot of evidence to show that we were willing to give up multiple premium assets to acquire him. We wouldn't have done that if Jones was in the long term plans.
Our roster needs players, I fully understand why a line was drawn in the sand on what we'd give up for Maye, but don't act like we didn't offer a lot to get him.
This!!!!
But it destroys the narrative of the usual suspects that the team is still all in on DJ
I haven't seen a single BBIer say the Giants are "all in" on DJ. Nor one who thinks they should be now, or a year ago.
His contract told the tale, even before Schoen said the plan was always to give him 2 years to show he's the guy for the next 10.
Really?
I’ve seen many opine that the offer to Maye wasn’t that strong and that the team still believes in DJ
Or that there interest in a QB was just a smokescreen
You are quoting from Hard Knocks….I am referring to pre HK before we heard Schoen say they quote about 2 years
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Really?
I’ve seen many opine that the offer to Maye wasn’t that strong and that the team still believes in DJ
Or that there interest in a QB was just a smokescreen
You are quoting from Hard Knocks….I am referring to pre HK before we heard Schoen say they quote about 2 years
Like I said, the contract told the tale a year ago - a 2 year commitment. Schoen didn't have to say it.
Who knows about Maye. It could have been a smokescreen - the people (led by Dan Duggan) who reported it or wish continue to call it fact. As Jones told one of the reporters - he doesn't know what happened draft day and (the reporter) doesn't either. Maybe we'll find out more in the next episode.
We don't know exactly what they think of DJ. Obviously they think they can win with him. But from declining his option to a contract structured for a 2 year out to Schoen's HK comments, the one thing we know is they've never been all in. I'd have worried if they were.
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In comment 16551414 JoeyBigBlue said:
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In the end, would the Giants prefer a dominant 3-4 year stretch like OBJ had here, or a cornerstone franchise WR like Mike Evans over a 10 season stretch.
Why exactly is *this* the choice? Who says Nabers can't be a cornerstone franchise WR?
Why is Odunze certainly not one of the many jumbo-sized WRs that fail?
He’s not jumbo sized, he’s 6’3 215-220 lbs. He also has a strong work ethic and solid production in college. He has everything possible to succeed at the NFL level.
Nearly every player projected to round 1 does. They dont all work. Not remotely suggesting he'd fail, but i dont understad those two outcomes seemingly being what you're choosing between.
RE: Barkley - he was disappointed. He wanted to stay a Giant and he wanted the most money he could get. It's a business, but feelings get involved as well.
Didn't anyone think Worthy could still run even a little bit faster? Last could steps he looked like he was transitioning to look at the clock. That guy looks like he could bet closer to high 4.1_ territory.
What the offer confirms is that Schoen, Daboll, etc. are not sold on Jones. More proof is his contract, which has a $22M "out" after this year.
I have total confidence they were picking Maye at #3 if they were ever able to move up. Especially with Schoen and how often he's brought up Daniel's availability over the last three seasons.
I have total confidence they were picking Maye at #3 if they were ever able to move up. Especially with Schoen and how often he's brought up Daniel's availability over the last three seasons.
Alt was never their target and when someone as low-rung as Bisignano is the only "insider" claiming that, it's time to find a different podcast.
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The Giants Insider with Jerry Foley and Chris Bisignano. Chris believes strongly they were trying to move up and snag Joe Alt. Entire QB play, to him, was a smoke screen.
I have total confidence they were picking Maye at #3 if they were ever able to move up. Especially with Schoen and how often he's brought up Daniel's availability over the last three seasons.
Alt was never their target and when someone as low-rung as Bisignano is the only "insider" claiming that, it's time to find a different podcast.
I like Jerry Foley, and tune out Chris.
But he's not the only person saying it. Adam Schefter was all over it.
Vintage Eric and crew.
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The Giants Insider with Jerry Foley and Chris Bisignano. Chris believes strongly they were trying to move up and snag Joe Alt. Entire QB play, to him, was a smoke screen.
I have total confidence they were picking Maye at #3 if they were ever able to move up. Especially with Schoen and how often he's brought up Daniel's availability over the last three seasons.
Alt was never their target and when someone as low-rung as Bisignano is the only "insider" claiming that, it's time to find a different podcast.
Wow. I'm glad I don't listen to that podcast. What a moronic statement by Bisignano. Sure, they were going to trade up for Alt yet they didn't engage with the Cardinals at all once Maye was taken.
Sy doesn't believe the Giants were interested in trading up for Maye. Not sure why. Seems pretty clear to me.
Again, if the Giants were so enamored with Alt, why didn't they talk with Arizona? I believe it was reported Schoen didn't even call them once NE selected Maye.
I think you are right.
Sy seemed to be suggesting that since the OL had so many holes, and there were/are huge question marks surrounding a high investment like Neal, going for Alt would make sense.
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though i think he clarified that it was his opinion not sourced reporting. could be mixing that up though.
Sy doesn't believe the Giants were interested in trading up for Maye. Not sure why. Seems pretty clear to me.
Again, if the Giants were so enamored with Alt, why didn't they talk with Arizona? I believe it was reported Schoen didn't even call them once NE selected Maye.
i agree with you, i think this is pretty obvious. through 3 years schoen hasnt been all that concerned with hiding his thoughts/intentions. i very much doubt there was a super secret plan to move up for alt that has eluded every beat writer. drake maye was/is a really good prospect who they liked a lot and NE also liked enough to not be willing to draft down 3 slots while picking up another QB they allegedly also really liked with JJM.
- Hannah WoW
- good seeing the real Daboll, how he relates to players and how really knowledgable he is about offense