i dont completely disagree. Daboll had the stage in key parts. But it's mostly propaganda with him, eg: Fast talking interview of prospects, 40 time and chicken wings.
More substance with every JS moment.
The 40-yard dash stuff was filler. But his comments about Nabers to Schoen was an eye-opener. And his chalkboard stuff was gold. We also saw how he really interacts with players.
Press conference Daboll sucks.
Behind the scenes Daboll is a different animal.
Agreed, Daboll's QB questioning was off the charts, really impressive. He knows what he wants in a QB.
It is being completely out of touch. Saquon was a scorned human being and "played the good soldier" last year only to get out of East Rutherford asap. The naïveté of both owner and GM is epic here! Saquon should have been traded last October. Expecting him to re-sign with the Giants was always folly. And now we know that what he got from Philadelphia was essentially the same as what the Giants offered. Frankly in hindsight, Schoen should have tagged him again this year and attempted to trade him. At least get something of value for God's sake!
Mara was quoted as refusing to trade Barkley. Not sure what Schoen can do in that situation.
lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
you remember the ineptitude in the half decade+ before they drafted him right? wilson, vereen, peyton hillis, paul perkins, andre williams, orleans darkwa, etc.
im reasonably hopeful singletary will be solid in at least the rashad jennings category, but that's not saying a ton. hes been durable but he too is a 27 year old RB, also with a lot of carries on him except on a much smaller frame, and its not like they got him on the 1 year 2m contract schoen was envious of from last year. add up his 16.5m and the 10m they paid barkley last year, and you end up pretty close to the extension mike g says he was willing to take.
if the price was exactly the same would you rather have barkley or singletary? obviously the price wasnt the same but the differences arent so vast that this was an obvious call. they are playing on the same cap #'s this year.
lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
I'm not. I'd take it more personally if Shockey Collins or Sehorn jumped ship to Philly. That'd be weird. This 2012-present era of Giants football isn't exactly something to be sentimental about.
lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
you remember the ineptitude in the half decade+ before they drafted him right? wilson, vereen, peyton hillis, paul perkins, andre williams, orleans darkwa, etc.
im reasonably hopeful singletary will be solid in at least the rashad jennings category, but that's not saying a ton. hes been durable but he too is a 27 year old RB, also with a lot of carries on him except on a much smaller frame, and its not like they got him on the 1 year 2m contract schoen was envious of from last year. add up his 16.5m and the 10m they paid barkley last year, and you end up pretty close to the extension mike g says he was willing to take.
if the price was exactly the same would you rather have barkley or singletary? obviously the price wasnt the same but the differences arent so vast that this was an obvious call. they are playing on the same cap #'s this year.
We got a HOF year out of Barkley as a rookie. We got a Pro Bowl year out of him in 2022. Everything else wasn't notable.
My concern about Schoen is that he seems more like a doer
than a strategist, which could explain why he was so successful as an Asst. Gm in Buffalo but has not found his footing here yet. I don't feel like when I listen to him that I am listening to some grand strategist, but again this is all edited and I bet the first things to go on the cutting room floor are deep strategic conversations about organization philosophy--so i don't know.
lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
you remember the ineptitude in the half decade+ before they drafted him right? wilson, vereen, peyton hillis, paul perkins, andre williams, orleans darkwa, etc.
im reasonably hopeful singletary will be solid in at least the rashad jennings category, but that's not saying a ton. hes been durable but he too is a 27 year old RB, also with a lot of carries on him except on a much smaller frame, and its not like they got him on the 1 year 2m contract schoen was envious of from last year. add up his 16.5m and the 10m they paid barkley last year, and you end up pretty close to the extension mike g says he was willing to take.
if the price was exactly the same would you rather have barkley or singletary? obviously the price wasnt the same but the differences arent so vast that this was an obvious call. they are playing on the same cap #'s this year.
We got a HOF year out of Barkley as a rookie. We got a Pro Bowl year out of him in 2022. Everything else wasn't notable.
ok so lets call that a 1 in 3 chance next year is notable.
do you expect a notable season out of singletary?
RE: My concern about Schoen is that he seems more like a doer
than a strategist, which could explain why he was so successful as an Asst. Gm in Buffalo but has not found his footing here yet. I don't feel like when I listen to him that I am listening to some grand strategist, but again this is all edited and I bet the first things to go on the cutting room floor are deep strategic conversations about organization philosophy--so i don't know.
i describe him as reactive vs. proactive. i agree with you the barkley saga looks to me like a guy who didnt have a conviction either way so he ended up half pregnant and losing him for nothing. if he didnt want barkley as much as he seemed they should have traded him at the deadline. pre-deadline he had played some good games (AZ, BUF come to mind) and i believe there had been rumored interest.
I expect that the Giants will finally run the offense that Daboll and Kafka really wanted to run from day one... for better or worse, this is a passing team now.
I don't mean it as an insult, but your POV seems to be in line with Mara... "we can't get rid of Barkley because we'll get worse at the position."
It's not about the position. It's about the big picture, strategic view of what you want the team to be. Barkley isn't the player fans think he was. You can blame the OL, QB, or injuries, but he wasn't. And he's clearly not getting faster or more explosive.
He'll have a big year for Philly, but it's a different situation.
The 2018 Giants were 16th in the NFL in scoring and went 5-11. The ball went Barkley's way 382 times (carries + targets) for 2028 yards and 15 TDs.
I give the guy credit for being tough enough to handle a ridiculous workload in a stupidly run offense, but other than that I'd hope the Giants would have gotten more out of 382 plays.
Barkley was not, and never was, a great player for the Giants.
The guys clearly an offensive genius- if he can learn the leadership part of being a coach he’ll do great.
Schoen- weirdly I feel worse. It’s not that his moves look worse it’s just the body language. He’s more … goofy? … than I thought he’d be. This is admittedly non scientific and perhaps doesn’t mean anything but the initial Blink-like impression I get of him is that he’s a lot less serious and formidable than I thought he’d be
I agree with this and know exactly what you mean.
Schoen comes across like a goober. I thought he was a bit more straight laced and conservative than this shows him to be.
It doesn't mean that he can't do his job effectively but the best way that I can describe it is I imagine at the GM meetings that he is at the herb table.
RE: RE: My concern about Schoen is that he seems more like a doer
than a strategist, which could explain why he was so successful as an Asst. Gm in Buffalo but has not found his footing here yet. I don't feel like when I listen to him that I am listening to some grand strategist, but again this is all edited and I bet the first things to go on the cutting room floor are deep strategic conversations about organization philosophy--so i don't know.
i describe him as reactive vs. proactive. i agree with you the barkley saga looks to me like a guy who didnt have a conviction either way so he ended up half pregnant and losing him for nothing. if he didnt want barkley as much as he seemed they should have traded him at the deadline. pre-deadline he had played some good games (AZ, BUF come to mind) and i believe there had been rumored interest.
I agree with both posts. Although I'll also say there is some learning on the job which happens as well. Schoen did have a unique situation inheriting a player like Barkley who ownership clearly loves. Couple that with the playoff win in 2022 and the general feeling around the fan base was they just woke up from a coma.
We were told we were getting the next LaDanian Tomlinson with more HR ability--which is the only way it would justify the #2 overall pick--and he didn't even come close. It was a failed pick. Knowing now that Gettleman refused to entertain offers to slide down a few picks, and possibly still take Barkley, it was an abomination.
He'll probably have a few excellent years in Philly. Maybe he'll win a SB. He certainly was never going to do that here, because we have too many other holes to pay a RB $13 mm a year, as Schoen adroitly recognized.
I always felt Schoen did not believe in paying running backs and, through his first two years, leveled out to the audience how he values certain positions.
I know he wanted a corner but getting a big time DE was a tremendous addition. Baby steps. Very interesting to see what they have planned at QB post-2024.
indifferent at the moment as far as leading the team, but I view more positively as people.
And Barkley off of the Giants is best for both parties, it's a band-aid that needed to be ripped off. I also wonder if Schoen wanted to trade Barkley mid-season and Mara blocked it, and based off of the first two episodes and Mara's previous comments on trading him that is likely what happened. Mara clearly thinks with his heart and not with his head, a trait his father had as well. Admirable as human being, but not for something as cut-throat as the NFL.
We kind of already knew this, but IMO Hard Knocks portrays the front office as having multiple contingency plans in place (e.g., Wilkins v Burns v McKinney, looking at trading for #3 versus WR at 6). They don't seem to really tunnel vision in on one plan.
I expect that the Giants will finally run the offense that Daboll and Kafka really wanted to run from day one... for better or worse, this is a passing team now.
I don't mean it as an insult, but your POV seems to be in line with Mara... "we can't get rid of Barkley because we'll get worse at the position."
It's not about the position. It's about the big picture, strategic view of what you want the team to be. Barkley isn't the player fans think he was. You can blame the OL, QB, or injuries, but he wasn't. And he's clearly not getting faster or more explosive.
He'll have a big year for Philly, but it's a different situation.
im ok with the big picture of going to more of a passing team, but better players are better players. addition by subtraction is uncommon. barkley looked like a pretty good receiver in this offense down the stretch in 2022 and in the 1 good offensive half of 2023.
i do think there is something to daboll wanting to force the change though and perhaps rip the bandaid off.
The 2018 Giants were 16th in the NFL in scoring and went 5-11. The ball went Barkley's way 382 times (carries + targets) for 2028 yards and 15 TDs.
I give the guy credit for being tough enough to handle a ridiculous workload in a stupidly run offense, but other than that I'd hope the Giants would have gotten more out of 382 plays.
Barkley was not, and never was, a great player for the Giants.
in 2018 he either tied or broke randy moss' record for long td's as a rookie (think it was like 50 or 60 yards, i forget which).
that team sucked because if memory serves bettchers defense gave up the most points in nyg history. cant remember if that was 2018 or 2019. either way it was an incompetent coaching staff that was pretty quickly out of the nfl altogether.
than a strategist, which could explain why he was so successful as an Asst. Gm in Buffalo but has not found his footing here yet. I don't feel like when I listen to him that I am listening to some grand strategist, but again this is all edited and I bet the first things to go on the cutting room floor are deep strategic conversations about organization philosophy--so i don't know.
i describe him as reactive vs. proactive. i agree with you the barkley saga looks to me like a guy who didnt have a conviction either way so he ended up half pregnant and losing him for nothing. if he didnt want barkley as much as he seemed they should have traded him at the deadline. pre-deadline he had played some good games (AZ, BUF come to mind) and i believe there had been rumored interest.
I agree with both posts. Although I'll also say there is some learning on the job which happens as well. Schoen did have a unique situation inheriting a player like Barkley who ownership clearly loves. Couple that with the playoff win in 2022 and the general feeling around the fan base was they just woke up from a coma.
I hope Schoen ultimately grows into a strategist.
agreed, and ive said this in other threads but i dont think reactive is the worst criticism. it's a very year to year league so some amount of letting things play out is likely good. adoree jackson for example had 2 very different years.
what troubles me with schoen is how quickly his strategy shifts. he was trying to extend love in nov, 4 months later he lets him walk despite the contract being very reasonable. he spent 8 months trying to extend barkley only to not bridge the gap at finish line, not trade him, and then never put another offer on the table.
those are guys in the building with C's, so are we choosing poor leaders or misevaluating them?
I like Daboll more. He's not a phony like Judge. And I feel more convinced that Daboll was THE reason we made the playoffs in 2022.
If there is a hot seat, Schoen's ass should be on it.
Schoen should be on the hot seat...after two seasons...
Because why? Because Daboll 'crushed' it with a 4th seed schedule and Dave Gettleman's roster?
In your world, how long exactly does it take to create a superbowl roster when two teams in your division are putting up to 10 years of future salary on the field in the given year...and still failing to obtain a superbowl?
Schoen should be on the hot seat...after two seasons...
Because why? Because Daboll 'crushed' it with a 4th seed schedule and Dave Gettleman's roster?
In your world, how long exactly does it take to create a superbowl roster when two teams in your division are putting up to 10 years of future salary on the field in the given year...and still failing to obtain a superbowl?
Well, isn't a fact that the team Daboll coached in 2022 was predominantly Gettleman's players, especially at the key positions?
Remind me. Outside of Okreke, how may high level productive players has Schoen added thus far?
I don't want to give the impression that I think Daboll is the next Andy Reid (not yet, anyway), but it's my opinion that he's been demonstrably better at his job than Schoen so far.
It's very possible I'm being too hard on Schoen. But this Jones re-re-commitment is a major albatross. He'd better hope Daboll can be his talisman again and make Jones work.
Saquon looked Canton bound after his rookie season. But injuries, wear/tear, & a bad line sapped him of that potential. Oh well. Life goes on. & it wouldn't surprise me in the least if he lights it up this fall behind that Eagles OL.
lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
All of us want the Giants to win, but for many fans, rooting for individual players is how they really enjoy sports. Like there is with Jones, there are a lot of Giants fans who simply like Barkley and hate the fact that he is no longer a Giant. It isn’t based on what is best for the team in the long run.
But I expect us to move on after 2024 with Jones if he doesn't get it done. Schoen has fully telegraph this on hard knocks
But how does Schoen define “getting it done?” Jones plays we in the first 3 games and then injuries start hitting, the line falls apart and the offense stalls, and then Jones goes down with an injury in week 6.
Did he get it done? If the goal is playoffs, does missing the playoffs alone make us move on?
The problem the last few years with Jones is “getting it done” has become “not his fault it didn’t get done, so he stays.”
RE: RE: My concern about Schoen is that he seems more like a doer
than a strategist, which could explain why he was so successful as an Asst. Gm in Buffalo but has not found his footing here yet. I don't feel like when I listen to him that I am listening to some grand strategist, but again this is all edited and I bet the first things to go on the cutting room floor are deep strategic conversations about organization philosophy--so i don't know.
i describe him as reactive vs. proactive. i agree with you the barkley saga looks to me like a guy who didnt have a conviction either way so he ended up half pregnant and losing him for nothing. if he didnt want barkley as much as he seemed they should have traded him at the deadline. pre-deadline he had played some good games (AZ, BUF come to mind) and i believe there had been rumored interest.
Eric, I agree with that summary. I think he did the same thing with Jones as with Barkley. He declined the 5th year option in 2022 based on 2021. Based on 2022, he reversed course in 2023 and signed Jones to an extension.
I would feel better about Schoen if I felt there was a long term strategic plan he was working toward as opposed to plugging holes based on what he saw last year.
lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
All of us want the Giants to win, but for many fans, rooting for individual players is how they really enjoy sports. Like there is with Jones, there are a lot of Giants fans who simply like Barkley and hate the fact that he is no longer a Giant. It isn’t based on what is best for the team in the long run.
lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
All of us want the Giants to win, but for many fans, rooting for individual players is how they really enjoy sports. Like there is with Jones, there are a lot of Giants fans who simply like Barkley and hate the fact that he is no longer a Giant. It isn’t based on what is best for the team in the long run.
is it acceptable to see it as improving the odds of winning by having a more productive player vs less productive player? barkley has the highest ypg of any rb in team history and we all know what kind of supporting cast/OL he's done that behind his entire career.
ascribing blame for losing to the teams best player seems backwards to me. like, maybe the dozens of teammates he's played with who have not gotten valued at the top of their positions or quickly departed the nfl in general were the bigger problem?
did he not obviously help them win 2022? were they not 6-8 with him in 23, 0-3 without him? but hey, through like 5 different regimes they havent found a good rb other than him since bradshaw in 2008 so they are probably due.
lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
All of us want the Giants to win, but for many fans, rooting for individual players is how they really enjoy sports. Like there is with Jones, there are a lot of Giants fans who simply like Barkley and hate the fact that he is no longer a Giant. It isn’t based on what is best for the team in the long run.
I root for the laundry.
Me too. I like certain players and would hate to see them leave (Dexter Lawrence) but that is because they are good players and easy to root for. If they traded Lawrence and brought in Mahomes, I would really not think about Lawrence again. I just want this team to be a consistent winner.
I don't want to give the impression that I think Daboll is the next Andy Reid (not yet, anyway), but it's my opinion that he's been demonstrably better at his job than Schoen so far.
It's very possible I'm being too hard on Schoen. But this Jones re-re-commitment is a major albatross. He'd better hope Daboll can be his talisman again and make Jones work.
Agreed with what you said. And I like them both. We need them to stay long term to see this through. Jones days were done if they could get Maye, and still are despite Maye. Jones is barely Schoen/Dabolls baby.
I believe we can win in spite of Jones. Many here do not. Regardless of the winning or lack there of…Jones is done here.
lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
All of us want the Giants to win, but for many fans, rooting for individual players is how they really enjoy sports. Like there is with Jones, there are a lot of Giants fans who simply like Barkley and hate the fact that he is no longer a Giant. It isn’t based on what is best for the team in the long run.
I'm too old for that. There was a time in my youth where I loved guys like Simms. But as SanFran said, I want the team to win. Pure tribalism.
I'm sentimental for certain dudes...I would have vomited seeing Eli in a Jags uni for example. It sucked seeing Tuck as a Raider. I'm glad Strahan spent his entire career here.
But for the most part, I'm like, 'Whatever.'
does it not go w/o saying that if the team wins nobody will care how?
offseason hard knocks more than any other is more about the best choices to assembling a winner than anything else. the goal is winning. i can promise you the eagles goal in signing barkley was to win more games with him and their recent track record getting those decisions right is better than all but a few teams.
I think a large majority of posters agree with you, but there's a somewhat sizable minority who really root for guys & lament when they're no longer on the team.
I just want to fucking win. I really don't care for anyone personally on this roster. I don't mean to sound crass, but I don't know them/don't wish them ill or anything...but I want to win. I'm sick of being a bottom feeder.
I think a large majority of posters agree with you, but there's a somewhat sizable minority who really root for guys & lament when they're no longer on the team.
I just want to fucking win. I really don't care for anyone personally on this roster. I don't mean to sound crass, but I don't know them/don't wish them ill or anything...but I want to win. I'm sick of being a bottom feeder.
i agree with that, i just see at least a half dozen wins they dont have in the last 2 years without barkley. maybe more. TEN 2 pt conversion, GB catch and run, HOU 30+ carries, WSH closed out the game, MIN 2 long tds, AZ that 3rd down catch/td, etc. i dont think singletary has ever been a difference maker in that way, which is i think what rossetti was articulating re saquon. rossetti has only been there for 2 years so i dont think he's being sentimental, i think he was looking at the market and correctly determined barkley for all his warts was still the best available.
there is a cost difference but both players have the same cap #s this year. i think anyone confident the nyg got something right the eagles got wrong is probably setting themselves up for disappointment (though id love to be wrong).
I don't want to give the impression that I think Daboll is the next Andy Reid (not yet, anyway), but it's my opinion that he's been demonstrably better at his job than Schoen so far.
It's very possible I'm being too hard on Schoen. But this Jones re-re-commitment is a major albatross. He'd better hope Daboll can be his talisman again and make Jones work.
Agreed with what you said. And I like them both. We need them to stay long term to see this through. Jones days were done if they could get Maye, and still are despite Maye. Jones is barely Schoen/Dabolls baby.
I believe we can win in spite of Jones. Many here do not. Regardless of the winning or lack there of…Jones is done here.
You believe BD is better at his job than JS basically because of JS commitment to DJ. Do you think JS support of DJ is without BD agreement. I DON'T THINK SO.
You believe BD is better at his job than JS basically because of JS commitment to DJ. Do you think JS support of DJ is without BD agreement. I DON'T THINK SO.
Whether you like or not, the 2022 roster was overwhelming Gettleman's players. And Daboll coached it. What great adds did Schoen make to that roster? James? Hodgins?
I would not have paid the money the Eagles did. You can figure he will miss a number of games due to injur - at least 5 or 6.. Also he isn’t the same RB that he was. I am thinking they will regret that contract.
Did anyone else forget Kevin Abrams is still with the team?
Reminds me of Steve Mills with the Knicks. An executive who keeps hanging around through regimes with vague duties and is considered for positions he's not qualified for.
You believe BD is better at his job than JS basically because of JS commitment to DJ. Do you think JS support of DJ is without BD agreement. I DON'T THINK SO.
Whether you like or not, the 2022 roster was overwhelming Gettleman's players. And Daboll coached it. What great adds did Schoen make to that roster? James? Hodgins?
Really don't see the point. BD had no choice but to coach the roster he was given from a prior regime. JS and BD are a new team working in tandem. It seems to me BD has input into JS decisions. I don't think JS would be committed to DJ if Daboll had opposite feelings.
yet but Ive seen some clips on X. Clearly Daboll knows the offensive side of the ball and needs to adjust, like all coordinators to running the big show. I feel good about his progression.
I can't say the same about Schoen. IMO, he underestimated the RB free agent market and asked a surprising question about Josh Jacobs in episode 1. I'd like my GM to know what the top players at each position have accomplished in recently. To ask if Jacobs lead the league in rushing was shocking to hear. So for me, the jury is still out on Schoen
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i dont completely disagree. Daboll had the stage in key parts. But it's mostly propaganda with him, eg: Fast talking interview of prospects, 40 time and chicken wings.
More substance with every JS moment.
The 40-yard dash stuff was filler. But his comments about Nabers to Schoen was an eye-opener. And his chalkboard stuff was gold. We also saw how he really interacts with players.
Press conference Daboll sucks.
Behind the scenes Daboll is a different animal.
Agreed, Daboll's QB questioning was off the charts, really impressive. He knows what he wants in a QB.
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In comment 16550998 The Mike said:
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It is being completely out of touch. Saquon was a scorned human being and "played the good soldier" last year only to get out of East Rutherford asap. The naïveté of both owner and GM is epic here! Saquon should have been traded last October. Expecting him to re-sign with the Giants was always folly. And now we know that what he got from Philadelphia was essentially the same as what the Giants offered. Frankly in hindsight, Schoen should have tagged him again this year and attempted to trade him. At least get something of value for God's sake!
Mara was quoted as refusing to trade Barkley. Not sure what Schoen can do in that situation.
When both were hired I had more faith in Schoen than Daboll, long-term. It's pretty much flipped at this point.
I like some things about Schoen, but have some questions.
But we now know that ownership is hand's on with personnel matters. Saying otherwise is simply not true.
I’ve been saying this forever.. yet people will still say otherwise.
[quote] In comment 16550950 Eric from BBI said:
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I feel much better about Daboll.
I like some things about Schoen, but have some questions.
But we now know that ownership is hand's on with personnel matters. Saying otherwise is simply not true.
you remember the ineptitude in the half decade+ before they drafted him right? wilson, vereen, peyton hillis, paul perkins, andre williams, orleans darkwa, etc.
im reasonably hopeful singletary will be solid in at least the rashad jennings category, but that's not saying a ton. hes been durable but he too is a 27 year old RB, also with a lot of carries on him except on a much smaller frame, and its not like they got him on the 1 year 2m contract schoen was envious of from last year. add up his 16.5m and the 10m they paid barkley last year, and you end up pretty close to the extension mike g says he was willing to take.
if the price was exactly the same would you rather have barkley or singletary? obviously the price wasnt the same but the differences arent so vast that this was an obvious call. they are playing on the same cap #'s this year.
I'm not. I'd take it more personally if Shockey Collins or Sehorn jumped ship to Philly. That'd be weird. This 2012-present era of Giants football isn't exactly something to be sentimental about.
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lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
you remember the ineptitude in the half decade+ before they drafted him right? wilson, vereen, peyton hillis, paul perkins, andre williams, orleans darkwa, etc.
im reasonably hopeful singletary will be solid in at least the rashad jennings category, but that's not saying a ton. hes been durable but he too is a 27 year old RB, also with a lot of carries on him except on a much smaller frame, and its not like they got him on the 1 year 2m contract schoen was envious of from last year. add up his 16.5m and the 10m they paid barkley last year, and you end up pretty close to the extension mike g says he was willing to take.
if the price was exactly the same would you rather have barkley or singletary? obviously the price wasnt the same but the differences arent so vast that this was an obvious call. they are playing on the same cap #'s this year.
We got a HOF year out of Barkley as a rookie. We got a Pro Bowl year out of him in 2022. Everything else wasn't notable.
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In comment 16551176 Eric from BBI said:
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lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
you remember the ineptitude in the half decade+ before they drafted him right? wilson, vereen, peyton hillis, paul perkins, andre williams, orleans darkwa, etc.
im reasonably hopeful singletary will be solid in at least the rashad jennings category, but that's not saying a ton. hes been durable but he too is a 27 year old RB, also with a lot of carries on him except on a much smaller frame, and its not like they got him on the 1 year 2m contract schoen was envious of from last year. add up his 16.5m and the 10m they paid barkley last year, and you end up pretty close to the extension mike g says he was willing to take.
if the price was exactly the same would you rather have barkley or singletary? obviously the price wasnt the same but the differences arent so vast that this was an obvious call. they are playing on the same cap #'s this year.
We got a HOF year out of Barkley as a rookie. We got a Pro Bowl year out of him in 2022. Everything else wasn't notable.
ok so lets call that a 1 in 3 chance next year is notable.
do you expect a notable season out of singletary?
i describe him as reactive vs. proactive. i agree with you the barkley saga looks to me like a guy who didnt have a conviction either way so he ended up half pregnant and losing him for nothing. if he didnt want barkley as much as he seemed they should have traded him at the deadline. pre-deadline he had played some good games (AZ, BUF come to mind) and i believe there had been rumored interest.
I don't mean it as an insult, but your POV seems to be in line with Mara... "we can't get rid of Barkley because we'll get worse at the position."
It's not about the position. It's about the big picture, strategic view of what you want the team to be. Barkley isn't the player fans think he was. You can blame the OL, QB, or injuries, but he wasn't. And he's clearly not getting faster or more explosive.
He'll have a big year for Philly, but it's a different situation.
I give the guy credit for being tough enough to handle a ridiculous workload in a stupidly run offense, but other than that I'd hope the Giants would have gotten more out of 382 plays.
Barkley was not, and never was, a great player for the Giants.
Schoen- weirdly I feel worse. It’s not that his moves look worse it’s just the body language. He’s more … goofy? … than I thought he’d be. This is admittedly non scientific and perhaps doesn’t mean anything but the initial Blink-like impression I get of him is that he’s a lot less serious and formidable than I thought he’d be
I agree with this and know exactly what you mean.
Schoen comes across like a goober. I thought he was a bit more straight laced and conservative than this shows him to be.
It doesn't mean that he can't do his job effectively but the best way that I can describe it is I imagine at the GM meetings that he is at the herb table.
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than a strategist, which could explain why he was so successful as an Asst. Gm in Buffalo but has not found his footing here yet. I don't feel like when I listen to him that I am listening to some grand strategist, but again this is all edited and I bet the first things to go on the cutting room floor are deep strategic conversations about organization philosophy--so i don't know.
i describe him as reactive vs. proactive. i agree with you the barkley saga looks to me like a guy who didnt have a conviction either way so he ended up half pregnant and losing him for nothing. if he didnt want barkley as much as he seemed they should have traded him at the deadline. pre-deadline he had played some good games (AZ, BUF come to mind) and i believe there had been rumored interest.
I agree with both posts. Although I'll also say there is some learning on the job which happens as well. Schoen did have a unique situation inheriting a player like Barkley who ownership clearly loves. Couple that with the playoff win in 2022 and the general feeling around the fan base was they just woke up from a coma.
I hope Schoen ultimately grows into a strategist.
He'll probably have a few excellent years in Philly. Maybe he'll win a SB. He certainly was never going to do that here, because we have too many other holes to pay a RB $13 mm a year, as Schoen adroitly recognized.
I know he wanted a corner but getting a big time DE was a tremendous addition. Baby steps. Very interesting to see what they have planned at QB post-2024.
And Barkley off of the Giants is best for both parties, it's a band-aid that needed to be ripped off. I also wonder if Schoen wanted to trade Barkley mid-season and Mara blocked it, and based off of the first two episodes and Mara's previous comments on trading him that is likely what happened. Mara clearly thinks with his heart and not with his head, a trait his father had as well. Admirable as human being, but not for something as cut-throat as the NFL.
Jones is the next band-aid to be ripped off.
I am more upset that it didnt work out. I really like him, wanted him to have a HOF career here. Much like Eli's last years, I feel we failed him.
I don't mean it as an insult, but your POV seems to be in line with Mara... "we can't get rid of Barkley because we'll get worse at the position."
It's not about the position. It's about the big picture, strategic view of what you want the team to be. Barkley isn't the player fans think he was. You can blame the OL, QB, or injuries, but he wasn't. And he's clearly not getting faster or more explosive.
He'll have a big year for Philly, but it's a different situation.
im ok with the big picture of going to more of a passing team, but better players are better players. addition by subtraction is uncommon. barkley looked like a pretty good receiver in this offense down the stretch in 2022 and in the 1 good offensive half of 2023.
i do think there is something to daboll wanting to force the change though and perhaps rip the bandaid off.
I give the guy credit for being tough enough to handle a ridiculous workload in a stupidly run offense, but other than that I'd hope the Giants would have gotten more out of 382 plays.
Barkley was not, and never was, a great player for the Giants.
in 2018 he either tied or broke randy moss' record for long td's as a rookie (think it was like 50 or 60 yards, i forget which).
that team sucked because if memory serves bettchers defense gave up the most points in nyg history. cant remember if that was 2018 or 2019. either way it was an incompetent coaching staff that was pretty quickly out of the nfl altogether.
I like Daboll more. He's not a phony like Judge. And I feel more convinced that Daboll was THE reason we made the playoffs in 2022.
If there is a hot seat, Schoen's ass should be on it.
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In comment 16551255 Essex said:
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than a strategist, which could explain why he was so successful as an Asst. Gm in Buffalo but has not found his footing here yet. I don't feel like when I listen to him that I am listening to some grand strategist, but again this is all edited and I bet the first things to go on the cutting room floor are deep strategic conversations about organization philosophy--so i don't know.
i describe him as reactive vs. proactive. i agree with you the barkley saga looks to me like a guy who didnt have a conviction either way so he ended up half pregnant and losing him for nothing. if he didnt want barkley as much as he seemed they should have traded him at the deadline. pre-deadline he had played some good games (AZ, BUF come to mind) and i believe there had been rumored interest.
I agree with both posts. Although I'll also say there is some learning on the job which happens as well. Schoen did have a unique situation inheriting a player like Barkley who ownership clearly loves. Couple that with the playoff win in 2022 and the general feeling around the fan base was they just woke up from a coma.
I hope Schoen ultimately grows into a strategist.
agreed, and ive said this in other threads but i dont think reactive is the worst criticism. it's a very year to year league so some amount of letting things play out is likely good. adoree jackson for example had 2 very different years.
what troubles me with schoen is how quickly his strategy shifts. he was trying to extend love in nov, 4 months later he lets him walk despite the contract being very reasonable. he spent 8 months trying to extend barkley only to not bridge the gap at finish line, not trade him, and then never put another offer on the table.
those are guys in the building with C's, so are we choosing poor leaders or misevaluating them?
I like Daboll more. He's not a phony like Judge. And I feel more convinced that Daboll was THE reason we made the playoffs in 2022.
If there is a hot seat, Schoen's ass should be on it.
Schoen should be on the hot seat...after two seasons...
Because why? Because Daboll 'crushed' it with a 4th seed schedule and Dave Gettleman's roster?
In your world, how long exactly does it take to create a superbowl roster when two teams in your division are putting up to 10 years of future salary on the field in the given year...and still failing to obtain a superbowl?
Schoen should be on the hot seat...after two seasons...
Because why? Because Daboll 'crushed' it with a 4th seed schedule and Dave Gettleman's roster?
In your world, how long exactly does it take to create a superbowl roster when two teams in your division are putting up to 10 years of future salary on the field in the given year...and still failing to obtain a superbowl?
Well, isn't a fact that the team Daboll coached in 2022 was predominantly Gettleman's players, especially at the key positions?
Remind me. Outside of Okreke, how may high level productive players has Schoen added thus far?
Well, isn't a fact that the team Daboll coached in 2022 was predominantly Gettleman's players, especially at the key positions?
Remind me. Outside of Okreke, how may high level productive players has Schoen added thus far?
Good point, the majority of the roster has been Gettleman's for the last two years. So I guess Daboll is on the hot seat too?
Avoid my question all you want. I know what the conclusion is of some here that share your viewpoint about this team. In summary:
"keep flushing the toilet every two years until something other than shit shows up"
That strategy has worked out for the last 12 years. Lets keep doing it!!!
It's very possible I'm being too hard on Schoen. But this Jones re-re-commitment is a major albatross. He'd better hope Daboll can be his talisman again and make Jones work.
All of us want the Giants to win, but for many fans, rooting for individual players is how they really enjoy sports. Like there is with Jones, there are a lot of Giants fans who simply like Barkley and hate the fact that he is no longer a Giant. It isn’t based on what is best for the team in the long run.
But how does Schoen define “getting it done?” Jones plays we in the first 3 games and then injuries start hitting, the line falls apart and the offense stalls, and then Jones goes down with an injury in week 6.
Did he get it done? If the goal is playoffs, does missing the playoffs alone make us move on?
The problem the last few years with Jones is “getting it done” has become “not his fault it didn’t get done, so he stays.”
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than a strategist, which could explain why he was so successful as an Asst. Gm in Buffalo but has not found his footing here yet. I don't feel like when I listen to him that I am listening to some grand strategist, but again this is all edited and I bet the first things to go on the cutting room floor are deep strategic conversations about organization philosophy--so i don't know.
i describe him as reactive vs. proactive. i agree with you the barkley saga looks to me like a guy who didnt have a conviction either way so he ended up half pregnant and losing him for nothing. if he didnt want barkley as much as he seemed they should have traded him at the deadline. pre-deadline he had played some good games (AZ, BUF come to mind) and i believe there had been rumored interest.
Eric, I agree with that summary. I think he did the same thing with Jones as with Barkley. He declined the 5th year option in 2022 based on 2021. Based on 2022, he reversed course in 2023 and signed Jones to an extension.
I would feel better about Schoen if I felt there was a long term strategic plan he was working toward as opposed to plugging holes based on what he saw last year.
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lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
All of us want the Giants to win, but for many fans, rooting for individual players is how they really enjoy sports. Like there is with Jones, there are a lot of Giants fans who simply like Barkley and hate the fact that he is no longer a Giant. It isn’t based on what is best for the team in the long run.
I root for the laundry.
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lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
All of us want the Giants to win, but for many fans, rooting for individual players is how they really enjoy sports. Like there is with Jones, there are a lot of Giants fans who simply like Barkley and hate the fact that he is no longer a Giant. It isn’t based on what is best for the team in the long run.
is it acceptable to see it as improving the odds of winning by having a more productive player vs less productive player? barkley has the highest ypg of any rb in team history and we all know what kind of supporting cast/OL he's done that behind his entire career.
ascribing blame for losing to the teams best player seems backwards to me. like, maybe the dozens of teammates he's played with who have not gotten valued at the top of their positions or quickly departed the nfl in general were the bigger problem?
did he not obviously help them win 2022? were they not 6-8 with him in 23, 0-3 without him? but hey, through like 5 different regimes they havent found a good rb other than him since bradshaw in 2008 so they are probably due.
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In comment 16551176 Eric from BBI said:
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lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
All of us want the Giants to win, but for many fans, rooting for individual players is how they really enjoy sports. Like there is with Jones, there are a lot of Giants fans who simply like Barkley and hate the fact that he is no longer a Giant. It isn’t based on what is best for the team in the long run.
I root for the laundry.
Me too. I like certain players and would hate to see them leave (Dexter Lawrence) but that is because they are good players and easy to root for. If they traded Lawrence and brought in Mahomes, I would really not think about Lawrence again. I just want this team to be a consistent winner.
It's very possible I'm being too hard on Schoen. But this Jones re-re-commitment is a major albatross. He'd better hope Daboll can be his talisman again and make Jones work.
Agreed with what you said. And I like them both. We need them to stay long term to see this through. Jones days were done if they could get Maye, and still are despite Maye. Jones is barely Schoen/Dabolls baby.
I believe we can win in spite of Jones. Many here do not. Regardless of the winning or lack there of…Jones is done here.
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lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
All of us want the Giants to win, but for many fans, rooting for individual players is how they really enjoy sports. Like there is with Jones, there are a lot of Giants fans who simply like Barkley and hate the fact that he is no longer a Giant. It isn’t based on what is best for the team in the long run.
I'm too old for that. There was a time in my youth where I loved guys like Simms. But as SanFran said, I want the team to win. Pure tribalism.
Barkley? He's with those (blanking) Eagles.
But for the most part, I'm like, 'Whatever.'
I just want to fucking win. I really don't care for anyone personally on this roster. I don't mean to sound crass, but I don't know them/don't wish them ill or anything...but I want to win. I'm sick of being a bottom feeder.
I just want to fucking win. I really don't care for anyone personally on this roster. I don't mean to sound crass, but I don't know them/don't wish them ill or anything...but I want to win. I'm sick of being a bottom feeder.
i agree with that, i just see at least a half dozen wins they dont have in the last 2 years without barkley. maybe more. TEN 2 pt conversion, GB catch and run, HOU 30+ carries, WSH closed out the game, MIN 2 long tds, AZ that 3rd down catch/td, etc. i dont think singletary has ever been a difference maker in that way, which is i think what rossetti was articulating re saquon. rossetti has only been there for 2 years so i dont think he's being sentimental, i think he was looking at the market and correctly determined barkley for all his warts was still the best available.
there is a cost difference but both players have the same cap #s this year. i think anyone confident the nyg got something right the eagles got wrong is probably setting themselves up for disappointment (though id love to be wrong).
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I don't want to give the impression that I think Daboll is the next Andy Reid (not yet, anyway), but it's my opinion that he's been demonstrably better at his job than Schoen so far.
It's very possible I'm being too hard on Schoen. But this Jones re-re-commitment is a major albatross. He'd better hope Daboll can be his talisman again and make Jones work.
Agreed with what you said. And I like them both. We need them to stay long term to see this through. Jones days were done if they could get Maye, and still are despite Maye. Jones is barely Schoen/Dabolls baby.
I believe we can win in spite of Jones. Many here do not. Regardless of the winning or lack there of…Jones is done here.
You believe BD is better at his job than JS basically because of JS commitment to DJ. Do you think JS support of DJ is without BD agreement. I DON'T THINK SO.
You believe BD is better at his job than JS basically because of JS commitment to DJ. Do you think JS support of DJ is without BD agreement. I DON'T THINK SO.
Whether you like or not, the 2022 roster was overwhelming Gettleman's players. And Daboll coached it. What great adds did Schoen make to that roster? James? Hodgins?
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You believe BD is better at his job than JS basically because of JS commitment to DJ. Do you think JS support of DJ is without BD agreement. I DON'T THINK SO.
Whether you like or not, the 2022 roster was overwhelming Gettleman's players. And Daboll coached it. What great adds did Schoen make to that roster? James? Hodgins?
Really don't see the point. BD had no choice but to coach the roster he was given from a prior regime. JS and BD are a new team working in tandem. It seems to me BD has input into JS decisions. I don't think JS would be committed to DJ if Daboll had opposite feelings.
I can't say the same about Schoen. IMO, he underestimated the RB free agent market and asked a surprising question about Josh Jacobs in episode 1. I'd like my GM to know what the top players at each position have accomplished in recently. To ask if Jacobs lead the league in rushing was shocking to hear. So for me, the jury is still out on Schoen