Daboll has barely been in the series so far. It's mostly been about Schoen.
In fact, someone here mentioned that Daboll has deliberately obscured his moments with licensed music in the background so it couldn't be used in the show. He's essentially dictated, successfully I'd say, how he is portrayed in HK.
Schoen on the other hand has, either willingly or not, given us a better picture of how he is approaching his philosophy. He was firm on SB from the beginning which flew in the face of ownership and the nepotism gang. He is allowing Jones to sink or swim based on Daboll's vision for this offense.
IMV, Schoen and Daboll are both coming out of this positively. But I trust Schoen more than Daboll by a hair or two. If this team sucks again, I'm keeping Schoen over Daboll for his ability to politic ownership...alone.
Actually seeing Mara weigh in on personnel matters.
Beyond that, there was so much meat in last night's show. I highlighted a bunch of the stuff that stood out to me in the pinned thread (too many to list again here).
I think it is funny people say they are higher on Daboll from watching. He was barely in the first episode and spent a lot of the second episode bullsh*** about his current 40 time.
I wonder if those who are more negative/meh on Schoen are just because you are seeing more of him warts and all.
No. It was his interaction with the Schoen and then his interaction with the players during the interviews.
I totally agree that Schoen should have tried to move
Daboll has barely been in the series so far. It's mostly been about Schoen.
In fact, someone here mentioned that Daboll has deliberately obscured his moments with licensed music in the background so it couldn't be used in the show. He's essentially dictated, successfully I'd say, how he is portrayed in HK.
Schoen on the other hand has, either willingly or not, given us a better picture of how he is approaching his philosophy. He was firm on SB from the beginning which flew in the face of ownership and the nepotism gang. He is allowing Jones to sink or swim based on Daboll's vision for this offense.
IMV, Schoen and Daboll are both coming out of this positively. But I trust Schoen more than Daboll by a hair or two. If this team sucks again, I'm keeping Schoen over Daboll for his ability to politic ownership...alone.
When I think of episode 1, I think of Schoen. When I think of episode 2, I think of Daboll. I thought Daboll was the star of episode 2.
RE: I totally agree that Schoen should have tried to move
i dont completely disagree. Daboll had the stage in key parts. But it's mostly propaganda with him, eg: Fast talking interview of prospects, 40 time and chicken wings.
i dont completely disagree. Daboll had the stage in key parts. But it's mostly propaganda with him, eg: Fast talking interview of prospects, 40 time and chicken wings.
More substance with every JS moment.
The 40-yard dash stuff was filler. But his comments about Nabers to Schoen was an eye-opener. And his chalkboard stuff was gold. We also saw how he really interacts with players.
Press conference Daboll sucks.
Behind the scenes Daboll is a different animal.
RE: RE: I totally agree that Schoen should have tried to move
SB at the deadline, but do we know he didn’t try? Maybe the offers weren’t strong, and he felt the comp picks would be just as good?
Of course, there is always that possibility that ownership nixed any potential deals.
I may be wrong but I don't believe the Giants will be seeing any comp picks as a result of Barkley leaving.
The last I saw is we will get a pick, and without Barkley leaving, we don't.
Gotcha. I'd assumed the OL signings (and possibly the Singletary signing) might negate the Barkley departure as far as the compensatory formula is concerned.
it keeps changing. One day we're getting a decent pick, the next no. I hate the way this system works. No transparency. I wish they would just get rid of it.
Or it could be the fact that the offense was pathetic
It's easy for fans to say sure trade away your best offensive weapon, strong offer or not.
The reality is that football teams are competitive people. An offensive coach in a struggling season that was ambushed by injuries is not going to be like, sure trade him away for whatever we can get, who cares if we have no other threats on offense to make things even harder on us than we already are. We'll just suck even worse.
People think like this is fantasy football. But the truth is, there are dozens of players with value who hit the FA market every year. You could make the same arguement for anyone of them -why didn't the team just trade them away, at leas the teams who aren't winning a SB? It is not as easy as the couch GMs seem to think.
He obviously did not want to invest in the RB position and didn't. If we had a team that could compete for the SB and we had a well-functioning offensive line (NYG 0-2 there) SB would make sense.
Schoen clearly wants to find out if Jones can do the heavy lifting, what better way to do than without the Saquon crutch – many stil attribute the team's 2022 success to Saquon rather than Jones. After this year he should know how to proceed at QB.
Though it hasn't really been played up, he did Saquon a huge favor by letting him test free agency. SB may have some bad blood, but he should be thankful instead.
What I get from the Schoen stuff overall is that he respects the positional value that currently works in the NFL.
It's been pretty bland. Like the fact that they saw value to the team in Barkley and would have taken him back but only cost provided and wasn't a priority where they were going to overpay for him should not shock anyone. Mara expresses his views on a high profile player but we know that JS goes in a different direction should not be shocking at all. Every owner is going to have an opinion and ask questions. The fact that we know JS made the call is exactly how this is supposed to work. Healthy discussion as you work through decision making is a good thing. I expect a lot of people to read into it as they want. But truth is, there's not much to see here. We're seeing bits and pieces of what is, by necessity, a long process.
Agree, the team has certainly been improved by JS. Has he made mistakes? Show me the GM or anyone in the decision-making business who hasn't. I'll take JS as long as he keeps improving the team. IMO mistakes are part of the job.
C - Hits and misses, but overall positive towards the two.
Next week will be telling: were they really only off 1 million bucks from the Eagles offer? That is still an extreme mismanagement to a roster in 2024. If that's the case, feel the Eagles got them out of their own way.
It's easy for fans to say sure trade away your best offensive weapon, strong offer or not.
The reality is that football teams are competitive people. An offensive coach in a struggling season that was ambushed by injuries is not going to be like, sure trade him away for whatever we can get, who cares if we have no other threats on offense to make things even harder on us than we already are. We'll just suck even worse.
People think like this is fantasy football. But the truth is, there are dozens of players with value who hit the FA market every year. You could make the same arguement for anyone of them -why didn't the team just trade them away, at leas the teams who aren't winning a SB? It is not as easy as the couch GMs seem to think.
It isn't fantasy football. It's a business with many layers of people acting in, at times, opposing interests.
That's why there has to be a strong figure at the top that can think strategically and see the big picture. And that figure, invariably, is ownership. He/She/They set the course and provide the strategic long term vision of the organization.
The strategy of Giants' ownership appears to be to overvalue and make optimistic appraisals of your own players and staff while continuing to populate the front office with family members.
NYGfaninCLT
@clt_ny
I find the *body language*/comfort level Schoen has with those he hired (Brown, Hickey, Rossetti) and those he didn’t (McDonnell, Abrams, Triggs, Tisch) fascinating.
i dont completely disagree. Daboll had the stage in key parts. But it's mostly propaganda with him, eg: Fast talking interview of prospects, 40 time and chicken wings.
More substance with every JS moment.
The 40-yard dash stuff was filler. But his comments about Nabers to Schoen was an eye-opener. And his chalkboard stuff was gold. We also saw how he really interacts with players.
Press conference Daboll sucks.
Behind the scenes Daboll is a different animal.
Agreed, Daboll's QB questioning was off the charts, really impressive. He knows what he wants in a QB.
It is being completely out of touch. Saquon was a scorned human being and "played the good soldier" last year only to get out of East Rutherford asap. The naïveté of both owner and GM is epic here! Saquon should have been traded last October. Expecting him to re-sign with the Giants was always folly. And now we know that what he got from Philadelphia was essentially the same as what the Giants offered. Frankly in hindsight, Schoen should have tagged him again this year and attempted to trade him. At least get something of value for God's sake!
Mara was quoted as refusing to trade Barkley. Not sure what Schoen can do in that situation.
lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
you remember the ineptitude in the half decade+ before they drafted him right? wilson, vereen, peyton hillis, paul perkins, andre williams, orleans darkwa, etc.
im reasonably hopeful singletary will be solid in at least the rashad jennings category, but that's not saying a ton. hes been durable but he too is a 27 year old RB, also with a lot of carries on him except on a much smaller frame, and its not like they got him on the 1 year 2m contract schoen was envious of from last year. add up his 16.5m and the 10m they paid barkley last year, and you end up pretty close to the extension mike g says he was willing to take.
if the price was exactly the same would you rather have barkley or singletary? obviously the price wasnt the same but the differences arent so vast that this was an obvious call. they are playing on the same cap #'s this year.
lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
I'm not. I'd take it more personally if Shockey Collins or Sehorn jumped ship to Philly. That'd be weird. This 2012-present era of Giants football isn't exactly something to be sentimental about.
lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
you remember the ineptitude in the half decade+ before they drafted him right? wilson, vereen, peyton hillis, paul perkins, andre williams, orleans darkwa, etc.
im reasonably hopeful singletary will be solid in at least the rashad jennings category, but that's not saying a ton. hes been durable but he too is a 27 year old RB, also with a lot of carries on him except on a much smaller frame, and its not like they got him on the 1 year 2m contract schoen was envious of from last year. add up his 16.5m and the 10m they paid barkley last year, and you end up pretty close to the extension mike g says he was willing to take.
if the price was exactly the same would you rather have barkley or singletary? obviously the price wasnt the same but the differences arent so vast that this was an obvious call. they are playing on the same cap #'s this year.
We got a HOF year out of Barkley as a rookie. We got a Pro Bowl year out of him in 2022. Everything else wasn't notable.
My concern about Schoen is that he seems more like a doer
than a strategist, which could explain why he was so successful as an Asst. Gm in Buffalo but has not found his footing here yet. I don't feel like when I listen to him that I am listening to some grand strategist, but again this is all edited and I bet the first things to go on the cutting room floor are deep strategic conversations about organization philosophy--so i don't know.
lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
you remember the ineptitude in the half decade+ before they drafted him right? wilson, vereen, peyton hillis, paul perkins, andre williams, orleans darkwa, etc.
im reasonably hopeful singletary will be solid in at least the rashad jennings category, but that's not saying a ton. hes been durable but he too is a 27 year old RB, also with a lot of carries on him except on a much smaller frame, and its not like they got him on the 1 year 2m contract schoen was envious of from last year. add up his 16.5m and the 10m they paid barkley last year, and you end up pretty close to the extension mike g says he was willing to take.
if the price was exactly the same would you rather have barkley or singletary? obviously the price wasnt the same but the differences arent so vast that this was an obvious call. they are playing on the same cap #'s this year.
We got a HOF year out of Barkley as a rookie. We got a Pro Bowl year out of him in 2022. Everything else wasn't notable.
ok so lets call that a 1 in 3 chance next year is notable.
do you expect a notable season out of singletary?
RE: My concern about Schoen is that he seems more like a doer
than a strategist, which could explain why he was so successful as an Asst. Gm in Buffalo but has not found his footing here yet. I don't feel like when I listen to him that I am listening to some grand strategist, but again this is all edited and I bet the first things to go on the cutting room floor are deep strategic conversations about organization philosophy--so i don't know.
i describe him as reactive vs. proactive. i agree with you the barkley saga looks to me like a guy who didnt have a conviction either way so he ended up half pregnant and losing him for nothing. if he didnt want barkley as much as he seemed they should have traded him at the deadline. pre-deadline he had played some good games (AZ, BUF come to mind) and i believe there had been rumored interest.
I expect that the Giants will finally run the offense that Daboll and Kafka really wanted to run from day one... for better or worse, this is a passing team now.
I don't mean it as an insult, but your POV seems to be in line with Mara... "we can't get rid of Barkley because we'll get worse at the position."
It's not about the position. It's about the big picture, strategic view of what you want the team to be. Barkley isn't the player fans think he was. You can blame the OL, QB, or injuries, but he wasn't. And he's clearly not getting faster or more explosive.
He'll have a big year for Philly, but it's a different situation.
The 2018 Giants were 16th in the NFL in scoring and went 5-11. The ball went Barkley's way 382 times (carries + targets) for 2028 yards and 15 TDs.
I give the guy credit for being tough enough to handle a ridiculous workload in a stupidly run offense, but other than that I'd hope the Giants would have gotten more out of 382 plays.
Barkley was not, and never was, a great player for the Giants.
The guys clearly an offensive genius- if he can learn the leadership part of being a coach he’ll do great.
Schoen- weirdly I feel worse. It’s not that his moves look worse it’s just the body language. He’s more … goofy? … than I thought he’d be. This is admittedly non scientific and perhaps doesn’t mean anything but the initial Blink-like impression I get of him is that he’s a lot less serious and formidable than I thought he’d be
I agree with this and know exactly what you mean.
Schoen comes across like a goober. I thought he was a bit more straight laced and conservative than this shows him to be.
It doesn't mean that he can't do his job effectively but the best way that I can describe it is I imagine at the GM meetings that he is at the herb table.
RE: RE: My concern about Schoen is that he seems more like a doer
than a strategist, which could explain why he was so successful as an Asst. Gm in Buffalo but has not found his footing here yet. I don't feel like when I listen to him that I am listening to some grand strategist, but again this is all edited and I bet the first things to go on the cutting room floor are deep strategic conversations about organization philosophy--so i don't know.
i describe him as reactive vs. proactive. i agree with you the barkley saga looks to me like a guy who didnt have a conviction either way so he ended up half pregnant and losing him for nothing. if he didnt want barkley as much as he seemed they should have traded him at the deadline. pre-deadline he had played some good games (AZ, BUF come to mind) and i believe there had been rumored interest.
I agree with both posts. Although I'll also say there is some learning on the job which happens as well. Schoen did have a unique situation inheriting a player like Barkley who ownership clearly loves. Couple that with the playoff win in 2022 and the general feeling around the fan base was they just woke up from a coma.
We were told we were getting the next LaDanian Tomlinson with more HR ability--which is the only way it would justify the #2 overall pick--and he didn't even come close. It was a failed pick. Knowing now that Gettleman refused to entertain offers to slide down a few picks, and possibly still take Barkley, it was an abomination.
He'll probably have a few excellent years in Philly. Maybe he'll win a SB. He certainly was never going to do that here, because we have too many other holes to pay a RB $13 mm a year, as Schoen adroitly recognized.
I always felt Schoen did not believe in paying running backs and, through his first two years, leveled out to the audience how he values certain positions.
I know he wanted a corner but getting a big time DE was a tremendous addition. Baby steps. Very interesting to see what they have planned at QB post-2024.
indifferent at the moment as far as leading the team, but I view more positively as people.
And Barkley off of the Giants is best for both parties, it's a band-aid that needed to be ripped off. I also wonder if Schoen wanted to trade Barkley mid-season and Mara blocked it, and based off of the first two episodes and Mara's previous comments on trading him that is likely what happened. Mara clearly thinks with his heart and not with his head, a trait his father had as well. Admirable as human being, but not for something as cut-throat as the NFL.
We kind of already knew this, but IMO Hard Knocks portrays the front office as having multiple contingency plans in place (e.g., Wilkins v Burns v McKinney, looking at trading for #3 versus WR at 6). They don't seem to really tunnel vision in on one plan.
I expect that the Giants will finally run the offense that Daboll and Kafka really wanted to run from day one... for better or worse, this is a passing team now.
I don't mean it as an insult, but your POV seems to be in line with Mara... "we can't get rid of Barkley because we'll get worse at the position."
It's not about the position. It's about the big picture, strategic view of what you want the team to be. Barkley isn't the player fans think he was. You can blame the OL, QB, or injuries, but he wasn't. And he's clearly not getting faster or more explosive.
He'll have a big year for Philly, but it's a different situation.
im ok with the big picture of going to more of a passing team, but better players are better players. addition by subtraction is uncommon. barkley looked like a pretty good receiver in this offense down the stretch in 2022 and in the 1 good offensive half of 2023.
i do think there is something to daboll wanting to force the change though and perhaps rip the bandaid off.
The 2018 Giants were 16th in the NFL in scoring and went 5-11. The ball went Barkley's way 382 times (carries + targets) for 2028 yards and 15 TDs.
I give the guy credit for being tough enough to handle a ridiculous workload in a stupidly run offense, but other than that I'd hope the Giants would have gotten more out of 382 plays.
Barkley was not, and never was, a great player for the Giants.
in 2018 he either tied or broke randy moss' record for long td's as a rookie (think it was like 50 or 60 yards, i forget which).
that team sucked because if memory serves bettchers defense gave up the most points in nyg history. cant remember if that was 2018 or 2019. either way it was an incompetent coaching staff that was pretty quickly out of the nfl altogether.
than a strategist, which could explain why he was so successful as an Asst. Gm in Buffalo but has not found his footing here yet. I don't feel like when I listen to him that I am listening to some grand strategist, but again this is all edited and I bet the first things to go on the cutting room floor are deep strategic conversations about organization philosophy--so i don't know.
i describe him as reactive vs. proactive. i agree with you the barkley saga looks to me like a guy who didnt have a conviction either way so he ended up half pregnant and losing him for nothing. if he didnt want barkley as much as he seemed they should have traded him at the deadline. pre-deadline he had played some good games (AZ, BUF come to mind) and i believe there had been rumored interest.
I agree with both posts. Although I'll also say there is some learning on the job which happens as well. Schoen did have a unique situation inheriting a player like Barkley who ownership clearly loves. Couple that with the playoff win in 2022 and the general feeling around the fan base was they just woke up from a coma.
I hope Schoen ultimately grows into a strategist.
agreed, and ive said this in other threads but i dont think reactive is the worst criticism. it's a very year to year league so some amount of letting things play out is likely good. adoree jackson for example had 2 very different years.
what troubles me with schoen is how quickly his strategy shifts. he was trying to extend love in nov, 4 months later he lets him walk despite the contract being very reasonable. he spent 8 months trying to extend barkley only to not bridge the gap at finish line, not trade him, and then never put another offer on the table.
those are guys in the building with C's, so are we choosing poor leaders or misevaluating them?
In fact, someone here mentioned that Daboll has deliberately obscured his moments with licensed music in the background so it couldn't be used in the show. He's essentially dictated, successfully I'd say, how he is portrayed in HK.
Schoen on the other hand has, either willingly or not, given us a better picture of how he is approaching his philosophy. He was firm on SB from the beginning which flew in the face of ownership and the nepotism gang. He is allowing Jones to sink or swim based on Daboll's vision for this offense.
IMV, Schoen and Daboll are both coming out of this positively. But I trust Schoen more than Daboll by a hair or two. If this team sucks again, I'm keeping Schoen over Daboll for his ability to politic ownership...alone.
Seeing the real Daboll.
Actually seeing Mara weigh in on personnel matters.
Beyond that, there was so much meat in last night's show. I highlighted a bunch of the stuff that stood out to me in the pinned thread (too many to list again here).
I wonder if those who are more negative/meh on Schoen are just because you are seeing more of him warts and all.
No. It was his interaction with the Schoen and then his interaction with the players during the interviews.
Of course, there is always that possibility that ownership nixed any potential deals.
In fact, someone here mentioned that Daboll has deliberately obscured his moments with licensed music in the background so it couldn't be used in the show. He's essentially dictated, successfully I'd say, how he is portrayed in HK.
Schoen on the other hand has, either willingly or not, given us a better picture of how he is approaching his philosophy. He was firm on SB from the beginning which flew in the face of ownership and the nepotism gang. He is allowing Jones to sink or swim based on Daboll's vision for this offense.
IMV, Schoen and Daboll are both coming out of this positively. But I trust Schoen more than Daboll by a hair or two. If this team sucks again, I'm keeping Schoen over Daboll for his ability to politic ownership...alone.
When I think of episode 1, I think of Schoen. When I think of episode 2, I think of Daboll. I thought Daboll was the star of episode 2.
Of course, there is always that possibility that ownership nixed any potential deals.
They said publicly last year they received offers but were not fielding offers.
Of course, there is always that possibility that ownership nixed any potential deals.
I may be wrong but I don't believe the Giants will be seeing any comp picks as a result of Barkley leaving.
More substance with every JS moment.
More substance with every JS moment.
The 40-yard dash stuff was filler. But his comments about Nabers to Schoen was an eye-opener. And his chalkboard stuff was gold. We also saw how he really interacts with players.
Press conference Daboll sucks.
Behind the scenes Daboll is a different animal.
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SB at the deadline, but do we know he didn’t try? Maybe the offers weren’t strong, and he felt the comp picks would be just as good?
Of course, there is always that possibility that ownership nixed any potential deals.
I may be wrong but I don't believe the Giants will be seeing any comp picks as a result of Barkley leaving.
The last I saw is we will get a pick, and without Barkley leaving, we don't.
Quote:
In comment 16551118 Section331 said:
Quote:
SB at the deadline, but do we know he didn’t try? Maybe the offers weren’t strong, and he felt the comp picks would be just as good?
Of course, there is always that possibility that ownership nixed any potential deals.
I may be wrong but I don't believe the Giants will be seeing any comp picks as a result of Barkley leaving.
The last I saw is we will get a pick, and without Barkley leaving, we don't.
Gotcha. I'd assumed the OL signings (and possibly the Singletary signing) might negate the Barkley departure as far as the compensatory formula is concerned.
It's easy for fans to say sure trade away your best offensive weapon, strong offer or not.
The reality is that football teams are competitive people. An offensive coach in a struggling season that was ambushed by injuries is not going to be like, sure trade him away for whatever we can get, who cares if we have no other threats on offense to make things even harder on us than we already are. We'll just suck even worse.
People think like this is fantasy football. But the truth is, there are dozens of players with value who hit the FA market every year. You could make the same arguement for anyone of them -why didn't the team just trade them away, at leas the teams who aren't winning a SB? It is not as easy as the couch GMs seem to think.
Schoen clearly wants to find out if Jones can do the heavy lifting, what better way to do than without the Saquon crutch – many stil attribute the team's 2022 success to Saquon rather than Jones. After this year he should know how to proceed at QB.
Though it hasn't really been played up, he did Saquon a huge favor by letting him test free agency. SB may have some bad blood, but he should be thankful instead.
What I get from the Schoen stuff overall is that he respects the positional value that currently works in the NFL.
a. Better
b. Worse
c. Neutral
a. (very much so)
2) How do you feel about Schoen?
a. Better
b. Worse
c. Neutral
a. (sort of for him, really like Brandon Brown)
3) How do you feel about the Mara/McDonnell?
a. Better
b. Worse
c. Neutral
b. (and I didn't think that was possible)
Agree, the team has certainly been improved by JS. Has he made mistakes? Show me the GM or anyone in the decision-making business who hasn't. I'll take JS as long as he keeps improving the team. IMO mistakes are part of the job.
Next week will be telling: were they really only off 1 million bucks from the Eagles offer? That is still an extreme mismanagement to a roster in 2024. If that's the case, feel the Eagles got them out of their own way.
It's easy for fans to say sure trade away your best offensive weapon, strong offer or not.
The reality is that football teams are competitive people. An offensive coach in a struggling season that was ambushed by injuries is not going to be like, sure trade him away for whatever we can get, who cares if we have no other threats on offense to make things even harder on us than we already are. We'll just suck even worse.
People think like this is fantasy football. But the truth is, there are dozens of players with value who hit the FA market every year. You could make the same arguement for anyone of them -why didn't the team just trade them away, at leas the teams who aren't winning a SB? It is not as easy as the couch GMs seem to think.
It isn't fantasy football. It's a business with many layers of people acting in, at times, opposing interests.
That's why there has to be a strong figure at the top that can think strategically and see the big picture. And that figure, invariably, is ownership. He/She/They set the course and provide the strategic long term vision of the organization.
The strategy of Giants' ownership appears to be to overvalue and make optimistic appraisals of your own players and staff while continuing to populate the front office with family members.
It shows you how broken the atmosphere around the team is. The guy never made a difference, ever. Even in his best season the offense still stunk.
It's not about the results. It's not about winning.
@clt_ny
I find the *body language*/comfort level Schoen has with those he hired (Brown, Hickey, Rossetti) and those he didn’t (McDonnell, Abrams, Triggs, Tisch) fascinating.
Quote:
i dont completely disagree. Daboll had the stage in key parts. But it's mostly propaganda with him, eg: Fast talking interview of prospects, 40 time and chicken wings.
More substance with every JS moment.
The 40-yard dash stuff was filler. But his comments about Nabers to Schoen was an eye-opener. And his chalkboard stuff was gold. We also saw how he really interacts with players.
Press conference Daboll sucks.
Behind the scenes Daboll is a different animal.
Agreed, Daboll's QB questioning was off the charts, really impressive. He knows what he wants in a QB.
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In comment 16550998 The Mike said:
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It is being completely out of touch. Saquon was a scorned human being and "played the good soldier" last year only to get out of East Rutherford asap. The naïveté of both owner and GM is epic here! Saquon should have been traded last October. Expecting him to re-sign with the Giants was always folly. And now we know that what he got from Philadelphia was essentially the same as what the Giants offered. Frankly in hindsight, Schoen should have tagged him again this year and attempted to trade him. At least get something of value for God's sake!
Mara was quoted as refusing to trade Barkley. Not sure what Schoen can do in that situation.
When both were hired I had more faith in Schoen than Daboll, long-term. It's pretty much flipped at this point.
I like some things about Schoen, but have some questions.
But we now know that ownership is hand's on with personnel matters. Saying otherwise is simply not true.
I’ve been saying this forever.. yet people will still say otherwise.
[quote] In comment 16550950 Eric from BBI said:
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I feel much better about Daboll.
I like some things about Schoen, but have some questions.
But we now know that ownership is hand's on with personnel matters. Saying otherwise is simply not true.
you remember the ineptitude in the half decade+ before they drafted him right? wilson, vereen, peyton hillis, paul perkins, andre williams, orleans darkwa, etc.
im reasonably hopeful singletary will be solid in at least the rashad jennings category, but that's not saying a ton. hes been durable but he too is a 27 year old RB, also with a lot of carries on him except on a much smaller frame, and its not like they got him on the 1 year 2m contract schoen was envious of from last year. add up his 16.5m and the 10m they paid barkley last year, and you end up pretty close to the extension mike g says he was willing to take.
if the price was exactly the same would you rather have barkley or singletary? obviously the price wasnt the same but the differences arent so vast that this was an obvious call. they are playing on the same cap #'s this year.
I'm not. I'd take it more personally if Shockey Collins or Sehorn jumped ship to Philly. That'd be weird. This 2012-present era of Giants football isn't exactly something to be sentimental about.
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lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
you remember the ineptitude in the half decade+ before they drafted him right? wilson, vereen, peyton hillis, paul perkins, andre williams, orleans darkwa, etc.
im reasonably hopeful singletary will be solid in at least the rashad jennings category, but that's not saying a ton. hes been durable but he too is a 27 year old RB, also with a lot of carries on him except on a much smaller frame, and its not like they got him on the 1 year 2m contract schoen was envious of from last year. add up his 16.5m and the 10m they paid barkley last year, and you end up pretty close to the extension mike g says he was willing to take.
if the price was exactly the same would you rather have barkley or singletary? obviously the price wasnt the same but the differences arent so vast that this was an obvious call. they are playing on the same cap #'s this year.
We got a HOF year out of Barkley as a rookie. We got a Pro Bowl year out of him in 2022. Everything else wasn't notable.
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In comment 16551176 Eric from BBI said:
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lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
you remember the ineptitude in the half decade+ before they drafted him right? wilson, vereen, peyton hillis, paul perkins, andre williams, orleans darkwa, etc.
im reasonably hopeful singletary will be solid in at least the rashad jennings category, but that's not saying a ton. hes been durable but he too is a 27 year old RB, also with a lot of carries on him except on a much smaller frame, and its not like they got him on the 1 year 2m contract schoen was envious of from last year. add up his 16.5m and the 10m they paid barkley last year, and you end up pretty close to the extension mike g says he was willing to take.
if the price was exactly the same would you rather have barkley or singletary? obviously the price wasnt the same but the differences arent so vast that this was an obvious call. they are playing on the same cap #'s this year.
We got a HOF year out of Barkley as a rookie. We got a Pro Bowl year out of him in 2022. Everything else wasn't notable.
ok so lets call that a 1 in 3 chance next year is notable.
do you expect a notable season out of singletary?
i describe him as reactive vs. proactive. i agree with you the barkley saga looks to me like a guy who didnt have a conviction either way so he ended up half pregnant and losing him for nothing. if he didnt want barkley as much as he seemed they should have traded him at the deadline. pre-deadline he had played some good games (AZ, BUF come to mind) and i believe there had been rumored interest.
I don't mean it as an insult, but your POV seems to be in line with Mara... "we can't get rid of Barkley because we'll get worse at the position."
It's not about the position. It's about the big picture, strategic view of what you want the team to be. Barkley isn't the player fans think he was. You can blame the OL, QB, or injuries, but he wasn't. And he's clearly not getting faster or more explosive.
He'll have a big year for Philly, but it's a different situation.
I give the guy credit for being tough enough to handle a ridiculous workload in a stupidly run offense, but other than that I'd hope the Giants would have gotten more out of 382 plays.
Barkley was not, and never was, a great player for the Giants.
Schoen- weirdly I feel worse. It’s not that his moves look worse it’s just the body language. He’s more … goofy? … than I thought he’d be. This is admittedly non scientific and perhaps doesn’t mean anything but the initial Blink-like impression I get of him is that he’s a lot less serious and formidable than I thought he’d be
I agree with this and know exactly what you mean.
Schoen comes across like a goober. I thought he was a bit more straight laced and conservative than this shows him to be.
It doesn't mean that he can't do his job effectively but the best way that I can describe it is I imagine at the GM meetings that he is at the herb table.
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than a strategist, which could explain why he was so successful as an Asst. Gm in Buffalo but has not found his footing here yet. I don't feel like when I listen to him that I am listening to some grand strategist, but again this is all edited and I bet the first things to go on the cutting room floor are deep strategic conversations about organization philosophy--so i don't know.
i describe him as reactive vs. proactive. i agree with you the barkley saga looks to me like a guy who didnt have a conviction either way so he ended up half pregnant and losing him for nothing. if he didnt want barkley as much as he seemed they should have traded him at the deadline. pre-deadline he had played some good games (AZ, BUF come to mind) and i believe there had been rumored interest.
I agree with both posts. Although I'll also say there is some learning on the job which happens as well. Schoen did have a unique situation inheriting a player like Barkley who ownership clearly loves. Couple that with the playoff win in 2022 and the general feeling around the fan base was they just woke up from a coma.
I hope Schoen ultimately grows into a strategist.
He'll probably have a few excellent years in Philly. Maybe he'll win a SB. He certainly was never going to do that here, because we have too many other holes to pay a RB $13 mm a year, as Schoen adroitly recognized.
I know he wanted a corner but getting a big time DE was a tremendous addition. Baby steps. Very interesting to see what they have planned at QB post-2024.
And Barkley off of the Giants is best for both parties, it's a band-aid that needed to be ripped off. I also wonder if Schoen wanted to trade Barkley mid-season and Mara blocked it, and based off of the first two episodes and Mara's previous comments on trading him that is likely what happened. Mara clearly thinks with his heart and not with his head, a trait his father had as well. Admirable as human being, but not for something as cut-throat as the NFL.
Jones is the next band-aid to be ripped off.
I am more upset that it didnt work out. I really like him, wanted him to have a HOF career here. Much like Eli's last years, I feel we failed him.
I don't mean it as an insult, but your POV seems to be in line with Mara... "we can't get rid of Barkley because we'll get worse at the position."
It's not about the position. It's about the big picture, strategic view of what you want the team to be. Barkley isn't the player fans think he was. You can blame the OL, QB, or injuries, but he wasn't. And he's clearly not getting faster or more explosive.
He'll have a big year for Philly, but it's a different situation.
im ok with the big picture of going to more of a passing team, but better players are better players. addition by subtraction is uncommon. barkley looked like a pretty good receiver in this offense down the stretch in 2022 and in the 1 good offensive half of 2023.
i do think there is something to daboll wanting to force the change though and perhaps rip the bandaid off.
I give the guy credit for being tough enough to handle a ridiculous workload in a stupidly run offense, but other than that I'd hope the Giants would have gotten more out of 382 plays.
Barkley was not, and never was, a great player for the Giants.
in 2018 he either tied or broke randy moss' record for long td's as a rookie (think it was like 50 or 60 yards, i forget which).
that team sucked because if memory serves bettchers defense gave up the most points in nyg history. cant remember if that was 2018 or 2019. either way it was an incompetent coaching staff that was pretty quickly out of the nfl altogether.
I like Daboll more. He's not a phony like Judge. And I feel more convinced that Daboll was THE reason we made the playoffs in 2022.
If there is a hot seat, Schoen's ass should be on it.
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In comment 16551255 Essex said:
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than a strategist, which could explain why he was so successful as an Asst. Gm in Buffalo but has not found his footing here yet. I don't feel like when I listen to him that I am listening to some grand strategist, but again this is all edited and I bet the first things to go on the cutting room floor are deep strategic conversations about organization philosophy--so i don't know.
i describe him as reactive vs. proactive. i agree with you the barkley saga looks to me like a guy who didnt have a conviction either way so he ended up half pregnant and losing him for nothing. if he didnt want barkley as much as he seemed they should have traded him at the deadline. pre-deadline he had played some good games (AZ, BUF come to mind) and i believe there had been rumored interest.
I agree with both posts. Although I'll also say there is some learning on the job which happens as well. Schoen did have a unique situation inheriting a player like Barkley who ownership clearly loves. Couple that with the playoff win in 2022 and the general feeling around the fan base was they just woke up from a coma.
I hope Schoen ultimately grows into a strategist.
agreed, and ive said this in other threads but i dont think reactive is the worst criticism. it's a very year to year league so some amount of letting things play out is likely good. adoree jackson for example had 2 very different years.
what troubles me with schoen is how quickly his strategy shifts. he was trying to extend love in nov, 4 months later he lets him walk despite the contract being very reasonable. he spent 8 months trying to extend barkley only to not bridge the gap at finish line, not trade him, and then never put another offer on the table.
those are guys in the building with C's, so are we choosing poor leaders or misevaluating them?