--The Ravens are paying Lamar Jackson $52M AAV to hand it off to Derek Henry who is making $8M AAV.
--The Eagles are paying Jalen Hurts $51M AAV to hand it off to Saquon Barkley who is making $12.5M AAV.
I get that both of those teams are within Super Bowl windows now. I also understand that it did NOT make sense for NYG to pay Barkley that money. However, Schoen's statement is clearly not consistent with how both BAL & PHI feel. I understand Henry isn't making $12M, but that is still $60M between both QB and RB.
As christian has said, did it make sense for Schoen to draw a line in the sand over a few million to Barkley just to give Jones what essentially is a 3 year commitment at $37.5M AAV?
Had they signed Barkley after 2022, they'd likely have a rookie QB or very cheap placeholder this season. (Darnold, Barkley & Nabers) or maybe they take McCarthy in that scenario.
I like Schoen, but this is my biggest criticism of him thus far. And I have no reason to believe that Rich Eisen "buyers remorse" report wasn't true. It feels like this was the safer outcome (pay Barkley & tag Jones).
That's fair. The context around the comment is they can't afford a $12M RB given the QB salary and the other needs. It wasn't necessarily that he would never pay a RB $12M when he's paying a QB $40M.
Now...whether the person handing off should be making 40 million is a fair question.
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What are you criticizing him for? The Ravens and Eagles are two of the NFLs best franchises. When our roster is as stacked as theirs then we can compare them. We're not in the same atmosphere as those two teams in terms of roster building. Schoen has also said numerous times that we have needs everywhere and RB is not high on that list. He also has a ton of data that says RBs fall off a cliff around age 27. Barkley may or may not follow that trend but we have much more pressing needs that needed to be addressed. He talked about a pass rusher on the edge. He talked about a pass rusher inside. They talked about CB, QB, WR, and especially OL. Not sure what Schoen did wrong in your eyes. Did you not like hos comment?
That's fair. The context around the comment is they can't afford a $12M RB given the QB salary and the other needs. It wasn't necessarily that he would never pay a RB $12M when he's paying a QB $40M.
I wouldn't say they can't afford it. The theme has been they absolutely could but should they. Schoen has made multiple comments about their needs and other positions being higher on the totem pole.
I think you're taking the comment wrong. When he said we aren't paying a 40 mil dollar QB to hand the ball off to a 12 million dollar RB, he isn't saying he cannot afford Barkley. He's saying that he's their only weapon on offense because the OL sucks and cannot allow any QB to succeed, hence the Mahomes comment. He's also saying a number 1 WR is more important because it makes the whole WR group look so much better. Do you take that 12.5 mil for Barkley and get some OL help and a WR1 or do you go with the same group that has proven time and time again to not be good enough?
This series is making me ask if JS really wanted to sign that 40m contract. Or if there were forces inside the organization that cornered him into it, more than he wanted to do it because he’s emphasized that price tag a few times already.
A 40+ million QBs must do more!
Now...whether the person handing off should be making 40 million is a fair question.
Jackson's cap hit is just over $32 million this year. Also, I suspect Schoen would have signed Barkley for $8 million a year.
The goal is to win the Super Bowl, not lose it, not make the AFC or NFC championship game. A simple look at recent history shows that the teams who win Super Bowls have franchise QBs, can protect them, and allocate assets to the passing game on offense and effecting it on defense.
Until proven otherwise, this is the template.
A 40+ million QBs must do more!
I agree they said a few times we might need to pivot on QB. Mara said we did everything to screw the kid. I think this is Schoen way of saying I fixed the line and got him a great wr. We have a good RB by committee. This he either wins or we move on
The pressure after winning a playoff game with DJ must have been huge to resign him based on the Mara family plus JS was new in the job and might not have understood all the family dynamics. The 10 years off his life comment about SB could be about the family dynamics inside the building.
Having a running back like Barkley has not helped them in the W-L column except 2022.
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The cap hit for Hurts this year is $13,558,800. More void yeat magic from the Eagles.
Now...whether the person handing off should be making 40 million is a fair question.
Jackson's cap hit is just over $32 million this year. Also, I suspect Schoen would have signed Barkley for $8 million a year.
+1.
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The cap hit for Hurts this year is $13,558,800. More void yeat magic from the Eagles.
Now...whether the person handing off should be making 40 million is a fair question.
Jackson's cap hit is just over $32 million this year. Also, I suspect Schoen would have signed Barkley for $8 million a year.
And Henry's cap hit is about $5 million.
Jones' cap hit this year is $41.6 million. So the combined cap hits for the duos of Hurts and Barkley ($27M) and Jackson and Henry ($38M) are less that just Jones' number. In the Eagles' case, $14 million less.
Having a running back like Barkley has not helped them in the W-L column except 2022.
Eric your second point is one that a lot of posters really need to concentrate on. Saquon was a good player with us, full of talent, however we never won with him. Its time to move on and try a different plan.
BTW, the Ravens are slightly negative in the cap in 2025; the 49ers massively so -$38,915,094.
Unlike Go Terps, I was blown away by his rookie season. I did see a generational talent. And this is coming from a guy who was a big fan of Joe Morris, Rodney Hampton, Tiki Barber, Brandon Jacobs, Ahmad Bradshaw.
I thought we would see that kind of explosion and highlight-reel play for years.
However, the injuries clearly have taken their toll. It's not just the QB and OL situations. Before 2022, he became more gun-shy. That changed in 2022 when he became a more physical runner. And he occasionally still broke off big runs (though if you noticed, he was getting caught now).
But last year, the big plays evaporated when he did break through the line. And as others have pointed out, he developed an annoying habit of having a brainfart late in games that hurt the team.
Long story short, he's not the same player he was... not by a mile. Again, I expect him to do well in Philly because EVERY running back does well in Philly with the OL and the surrounding weapons they have (Barkley will be one of many guys who can hurt you).
I'd rather invest in the OL, than RB. I'd rather invest in edge than safety. That's what the Giants did.
Now...whether the person handing off should be making 40 million is a fair question.
This 1000%. Why is this so hard for so many to understand. Jones’s cap hit this year is $40 million. That’s what Schoen was talking about.
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That message and many others are directed to Jones.
A 40+ million QBs must do more!
I agree they said a few times we might need to pivot on QB. Mara said we did everything to screw the kid. I think this is Schoen way of saying I fixed the line and got him a great wr. We have a good RB by committee. This he either wins or we move on
The pressure after winning a playoff game with DJ must have been huge to resign him based on the Mara family plus JS was new in the job and might not have understood all the family dynamics. The 10 years off his life comment about SB could be about the family dynamics inside the building.
I will never, ever understand treating the situation as they did from a football standpoint. It was foolish, and I'd bet anything it was a Mara mandate.
The real question is ... will they also cost Daboll/Schoen their jobs? Can they turn it around quick enough that the fanbase doesn't turn on them.
The real question is ... will they also cost Daboll/Schoen their jobs? Can they turn it around quick enough that the fanbase doesn't turn on them.
In hindsight, 2022 caused a lot of problems.
Not to mention, Schoen’s philosophy mirrors what Buff was doing when he was there. Whether it’s the right model, we’ll see, but it’s clear to me that Schoen/Daboll have little interest in running a grind it out attack.
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and the "success" they set the franchise back.
The real question is ... will they also cost Daboll/Schoen their jobs? Can they turn it around quick enough that the fanbase doesn't turn on them.
In hindsight, 2022 caused a lot of problems.
It didn't have to. Philadelphia showed everyone what that team really was - a bad team that had some schedule, injury, and bounce of the ball luck. Intelligent people would and should have seen that.
So for a running back, the risk ceiling is lower, because you know it's a lower return asset. That is why they make less. Opposite for a QB. The risk ceiling is higher.
If you rewind to 2022, Schoen had a decision between putting the risk on Barkely or Jones. He could have capped the risk at 32M for Jones and 25M for Barkley, or set the risk at 82M for Jones and 10M for Barkley.
So let's look at this in real terms, and not just dollars, but percentage of cap the guarantees represented.
Let's say Barkley signed a 3/33M contract with 25M guaranteed, under the assumption he would play 2023 + 2024 for the Giants, and they be cut. That 25M represents 5.21% of the cap over those years.
For Jones (4/160, 82M guaranteed, and assume he's cut after year 2) that equals 17.8% of the cap.
If Barkley underperforms by 50%, you've "wasted" 2.6 of your resources. If Jones underperforms at the same rate you've "wasted" 8.9% of your resources.
In a situation where you have tenuous confidence in the outcome, choose the lower risk ceiling. This was bad work by Schoen. He either had too much confidence in Jones, or isn't operating under good risk mitigation principles.
Paying the 2018 guy $12 M is a good deal. It's just not that much money by NFL standards. Everyone knows the value of RBs so that's built into the price now. But he's not that guy anymore.
This series is making me ask if JS really wanted to sign that 40m contract. Or if there were forces inside the organization that cornered him into it, more than he wanted to do it because he’s emphasized that price tag a few times already.
I interpret the 40m comments the same way. Almost as "well, you guys wanted a $40m QB, now deal with it"
So for a running back, the risk ceiling is lower, because you know it's a lower return asset. That is why they make less. Opposite for a QB. The risk ceiling is higher.
If you rewind to 2022, Schoen had a decision between putting the risk on Barkely or Jones. He could have capped the risk at 32M for Jones and 25M for Barkley, or set the risk at 82M for Jones and 10M for Barkley.
So let's look at this in real terms, and not just dollars, but percentage of cap the guarantees represented.
Let's say Barkley signed a 3/33M contract with 25M guaranteed, under the assumption he would play 2023 + 2024 for the Giants, and they be cut. That 25M represents 5.21% of the cap over those years.
For Jones (4/160, 82M guaranteed, and assume he's cut after year 2) that equals 17.8% of the cap.
If Barkley underperforms by 50%, you've "wasted" 2.6 of your resources. If Jones underperforms at the same rate you've "wasted" 8.9% of your resources.
In a situation where you have tenuous confidence in the outcome, choose the lower risk ceiling. This was bad work by Schoen. He either had too much confidence in Jones, or isn't operating under good risk mitigation principles.
So well said. And from the premise of Jones & Barkley were absolutely going to return for 2023, it was the better process.
I don't disagree with what Go Terps is saying, I just don't find that viable with just about any owner in the NFL. If Schoen had a a super bowl ring under his belt he'd have an argument to Mara. A first time GM going into Mara's office and presenting that? No fucking way.
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In comment 16551521 Kanavis said:
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The cap hit for Hurts this year is $13,558,800. More void yeat magic from the Eagles.
Now...whether the person handing off should be making 40 million is a fair question.
Jackson's cap hit is just over $32 million this year. Also, I suspect Schoen would have signed Barkley for $8 million a year.
And Henry's cap hit is about $5 million.
Jones' cap hit this year is $41.6 million. So the combined cap hits for the duos of Hurts and Barkley ($27M) and Jackson and Henry ($38M) are less that just Jones' number. In the Eagles' case, $14 million less.
BTW, Barkley's cap hit this year is 50,000 more than Singletary's. Barkley's cap hit next season is $750,000 less than Singletary's. So, any dead cap consideration does not come into play until year 3, and in the meantime, Barkley's cap hit is less than Singletary's.
You guys are swallowing Schoen's bullshit whole hog.
Having a running back like Barkley has not helped them in the W-L column except 2022.
The other component is that the niners didn't draft McCaffrey. They traded for him when they were good. That's been a main concern/criticism for Barkley pick at two, would the Giants actually be good enough to use his talent, or would they waste his prime years rebuilding; clearly it's been the latter.
Paying a RB high dollars seems to be a luxury for teams with their title window wide open.
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In comment 16551577 Dnew15 said:
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and the "success" they set the franchise back.
The real question is ... will they also cost Daboll/Schoen their jobs? Can they turn it around quick enough that the fanbase doesn't turn on them.
In hindsight, 2022 caused a lot of problems.
It didn't have to. Philadelphia showed everyone what that team really was - a bad team that had some schedule, injury, and bounce of the ball luck. Intelligent people would and should have seen that.
I hear you on that - BUT - in the world of reality and without the benefit of hindsight... it's easy to see why the people "in" it saw what they wanted to see that year.
There were a lot of people in that FO that wanted SB and DJ to be the foundations of the team in the future- and for good reasons (unfortunately a lot of them weren't based on production). AND many of those people were higher up on the food chain than the GM and HC.
It would have taken a lot of balls for a 1st year GM and HC that just won coach of the year to go in a different direction after the year they had. There were no good other directions to go at the QB position at the time they had to make a decision on DJ.
They played it safe - we'll see if it costs them their jobs.
the idea that they could have had jones + barkley for the same price as other teams have payed other non-elite QBs (goff/hurts/tua/lawrence) seems pretty savvy to me cap wise.
savvier than paying 45.5m for jones + singletary at least. who is also 27 and on a smaller frame has almost the same number of carries as barkley. and on the same cap # as barkley this year.
and to add to your list, last year dallas paid dak $40m + 10m for pollard, in 2022 SF had been paying Jimmy G 30 something and CMC 15m, Packers had been paying Rodgers 50m and Jones 12m, saints are paying Carr 40m and kamara 15m, titans had been paying tannehill 30 something and henry 14m, bengals had been paying burrow 52m and mixon 11m. so this isnt some new phenomenon. its been pretty common practice.
in year 3 shouldnt that be where they are at? what position have they not been able to invest heavily in?
Having a running back like Barkley has not helped them in the W-L column except 2022.
it seemed to help last year, 0-3 without him and 6-8 with him.
The Giants brass will react if the fans demand change - I think they've proven that over time, especially if the GM and/or HC give them a reason to move on.
If things go south - can Daboll keep his cool and not implode the way Judge did? I'm not a 100% sure - he looked like he was on the verge of losing it a couple times last year. He can't afford another public divorce from a coach either.
I think Schoen will keep it together - I think he'll buy himself some time with his calm/cool/collected demeanor. If things bottom out this year - how things end with DJ will matter for Schoen.
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In comment 16551533 k2tampa said:
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In comment 16551521 Kanavis said:
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The cap hit for Hurts this year is $13,558,800. More void yeat magic from the Eagles.
Now...whether the person handing off should be making 40 million is a fair question.
Jackson's cap hit is just over $32 million this year. Also, I suspect Schoen would have signed Barkley for $8 million a year.
And Henry's cap hit is about $5 million.
Jones' cap hit this year is $41.6 million. So the combined cap hits for the duos of Hurts and Barkley ($27M) and Jackson and Henry ($38M) are less that just Jones' number. In the Eagles' case, $14 million less.
Remember all this when Nabers is flapping his arms because he's open and Captain Checkdown chucks a 3 yard pass at whoever is playing tight end or doesn't see an opportunity with a receiver coming open or stands back there patting the ball four times because he doesn't recognize what he's looking at and gets sacked while you guys are screaming about fix the OL. All while the guy not being paid to hand off searches for that elusive 3500 yard, 17 td passes mark in year 6.
BTW, Barkley's cap hit this year is 50,000 more than Singletary's. Barkley's cap hit next season is $750,000 less than Singletary's. So, any dead cap consideration does not come into play until year 3, and in the meantime, Barkley's cap hit is less than Singletary's.
You guys are swallowing Schoen's bullshit whole hog.
You are wrong about schoen. This is why from reports he made a strong 3-year offer to Barkley mid and end of '22 season, exactly to get the above type of contract breakdown. Going into 2023 free agency, draft and contract negotiations with Jones, the giants would have been in a much better position. Barkley's rejection screwed the giants big time.
An angry Schoen was stuck with Mara not allowing him to trade Barkley, and having to sign Barkley and Jones. By July, 2023, having lost the above mentioned value of signing Barkley early, he hardened his position with Barkley, and we all know what happened as a result.
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In comment 16551533 k2tampa said:
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In comment 16551521 Kanavis said:
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The cap hit for Hurts this year is $13,558,800. More void yeat magic from the Eagles.
Now...whether the person handing off should be making 40 million is a fair question.
Jackson's cap hit is just over $32 million this year. Also, I suspect Schoen would have signed Barkley for $8 million a year.
And Henry's cap hit is about $5 million.
Jones' cap hit this year is $41.6 million. So the combined cap hits for the duos of Hurts and Barkley ($27M) and Jackson and Henry ($38M) are less that just Jones' number. In the Eagles' case, $14 million less.
Remember all this when Nabers is flapping his arms because he's open and Captain Checkdown chucks a 3 yard pass at whoever is playing tight end or doesn't see an opportunity with a receiver coming open or stands back there patting the ball four times because he doesn't recognize what he's looking at and gets sacked while you guys are screaming about fix the OL. All while the guy not being paid to hand off searches for that elusive 3500 yard, 17 td passes mark in year 6.
BTW, Barkley's cap hit this year is 50,000 more than Singletary's. Barkley's cap hit next season is $750,000 less than Singletary's. So, any dead cap consideration does not come into play until year 3, and in the meantime, Barkley's cap hit is less than Singletary's.
You guys are swallowing Schoen's bullshit whole hog.
And Singletary got $9M guaranteed and Barkley got $26M guaranteed. If Singletary gets cut after two years the dead money is $1.2M with $5.2M in savings. If Barkley gets cut after 2 years the dead money is $8.7M with $300k in cap savings.
There's a huge difference in philosophy. The Eagles are pushing huge amounts of money down the road (Hurts' 2029 cap hit is $97M, Barkley's 2027 is $19M). The Giants don't believe in pushing big money into the future that brings the potential for cap disaster.
In general, I agree that the current roster is not a legitimate playoff contender as I see it a near .500 team that will pull off a couple of upsets while dropping some winnable games. However, playing .500 football will get a team near the final wildcard playoff spot especially since they expanded the field to 8 teams.
Personally, I will be happy with the Giants showing progress from the lines, receivers, run defense, and secondary as those units get built up which isn't too much to ask for.
The fatal mistake, and the entire problem here, since that ignominious moment on April 25, 2019, has been the complete bamboozling of the management of this franchise by Daniel Jones. The idea that they would not only draft him sixth and put all of the eggs of this franchise in that basket, but that they would double down and make him the fifth highest paid player this year in terms of cap hit, is beyond ludicrous. We are going on six years now and the GM of this franchise still doesn't know if DJ "can sling it!"
So the problem with the GM at the moment is the complete blind spot that he would actually ask the question if they should be "paying DJ 40M to hand off to a 12M running back" and not the right question "should they be paying a quarterback, whose proper value comps are Darnold, Trubisky and Mariota, 40M?" Signing Russell Wilson, drafting Milton or Pratt and cutting DJ after June 1st was the only sensible course of action to quickly pivot from his disastrous error and turn this thing around. He didn't do it. Now he lives or dies based on the success or failure of Daniel Jones. Good luck with all of that!
So for a running back, the risk ceiling is lower, because you know it's a lower return asset. That is why they make less. Opposite for a QB. The risk ceiling is higher.
If you rewind to 2022, Schoen had a decision between putting the risk on Barkely or Jones. He could have capped the risk at 32M for Jones and 25M for Barkley, or set the risk at 82M for Jones and 10M for Barkley.
So let's look at this in real terms, and not just dollars, but percentage of cap the guarantees represented.
Let's say Barkley signed a 3/33M contract with 25M guaranteed, under the assumption he would play 2023 + 2024 for the Giants, and they be cut. That 25M represents 5.21% of the cap over those years.
For Jones (4/160, 82M guaranteed, and assume he's cut after year 2) that equals 17.8% of the cap.
If Barkley underperforms by 50%, you've "wasted" 2.6 of your resources. If Jones underperforms at the same rate you've "wasted" 8.9% of your resources.
In a situation where you have tenuous confidence in the outcome, choose the lower risk ceiling. This was bad work by Schoen. He either had too much confidence in Jones, or isn't operating under good risk mitigation principles.
So well said. And from the premise of Jones & Barkley were absolutely going to return for 2023, it was the better process.
I don't disagree with what Go Terps is saying, I just don't find that viable with just about any owner in the NFL. If Schoen had a a super bowl ring under his belt he'd have an argument to Mara. A first time GM going into Mara's office and presenting that? No fucking way.
The unequivocal right answer was to say to Team Jones - "You proved me wrong. I didn't want to bet 22M on you having a good year, and I lost. You just made an additional 10M. Go do it again and make me look bad again."
The franchise tag isn't just a negotiating tool. It's a hedge. He wasn't too scared to use it on Barkley, he shouldn't have been too scared to use it on Jones.
Jones hadn't proven enough to get 82M. He had proven enough to get 32M.
You are wrong about schoen. This is why from reports he made a strong 3-year offer to Barkley mid and end of '22 season, exactly to get the above type of contract breakdown. Going into 2023 free agency, draft and contract negotiations with Jones, the giants would have been in a much better position. Barkley's rejection screwed the giants big time.
An angry Schoen was stuck with Mara not allowing him to trade Barkley, and having to sign Barkley and Jones. By July, 2023, having lost the above mentioned value of signing Barkley early, he hardened his position with Barkley, and we all know what happened as a result.
This tells the whole story. It was Barkley who rejected Schoen’s offer putting the Giants in a difficult position. Schoen did his best to keep Barkley. Barkley is gone because of his own decisions.
I will never, ever understand treating the situation as they did from a football standpoint. It was foolish, and I'd bet anything it was a Mara mandate.
12m = 4.7%
6m = 2.35%
these are not significant sums or differences.
what is a significant difference is having to replace the most productive player on your offense or not. they have chose to go that route and while we all obviously hope that works out they have probably made the climb steeper. and from the looks of hard knocks, it seems like schoen didnt really have any firm reasoning for that except "i dont want to pay a rb".
which is fine thats his choice, but sean is 100% correct in pointing out there are lots of examples of winning teams who have made the opposite choice.
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You are wrong about schoen. This is why from reports he made a strong 3-year offer to Barkley mid and end of '22 season, exactly to get the above type of contract breakdown. Going into 2023 free agency, draft and contract negotiations with Jones, the giants would have been in a much better position. Barkley's rejection screwed the giants big time.
An angry Schoen was stuck with Mara not allowing him to trade Barkley, and having to sign Barkley and Jones. By July, 2023, having lost the above mentioned value of signing Barkley early, he hardened his position with Barkley, and we all know what happened as a result.
This tells the whole story. It was Barkley who rejected Schoen’s offer putting the Giants in a difficult position. Schoen did his best to keep Barkley. Barkley is gone because of his own decisions.
Schoen also did his best with Jones at that time. Given having made the playoffs, and Mara's love of Jones, he couldn't risk losing him. Unhappy solution, pay him but also have a two year out that wouldn't kill the team. Most BBIers recognized this at the time, but some with hindsight are now overly critical of Schoen for this decision.
12m = 4.7%
6m = 2.35%
these are not significant sums or differences.
what is a significant difference is having to replace the most productive player on your offense or not. they have chose to go that route and while we all obviously hope that works out they have probably made the climb steeper. and from the looks of hard knocks, it seems like schoen didnt really have any firm reasoning for that except "i dont want to pay a rb".
which is fine thats his choice, but sean is 100% correct in pointing out there are lots of examples of winning teams who have made the opposite choice.
The Giants aren't a winning team. It's also quite clear that Schoen doesn't value the RB position; that's what it comes down to. When the cap goes up, it increases the cost for all positions, so being able to pay more for a RB also means paying more for edge, CB, etc.